Stories from the Sales Frontlines

oldfarmer50

"...Your emotions have no bearing on whether you are being ripped off..."

I never said they did, only that they contribute to the FEAR that you are being ripped off. I know that for people like you and Mr. Spock there is no emotion involved in car buying but for some off us it can be a gut wrenching experience. You can think a price was fair after hearing the salesman's siren song (also called creating value) but then have buyer's remorse the next day and think you were taken.

Some people become unbalanced by this fear and do all sorts of jerky things as documented on this site.

joel0622

Like I said that is front end gross only, no backend. I average $600-$700 a copy so that just put it close to $2K a copy. Plus that list really does not have any home runs on it, just the last 20 deals we did this month.

sterlingdog

What a ridiculous offer! You have experienced the down side of selling a vehicle yourself. Been there, done that. Still, you have a great idea. Go back to the marinas on a pretty day. Park the car and eat lunch there to give yourself some exposure time. I think that you'll get better offers, and more of them. Sounds as if your Tahoe does everything but cook breakfast. Good luck and keep trying.

Richard

golic

Is hold back the same as dealer pack?

joel0622

In our store if a car is appraised for say $18500 and the salesmen trades with you for $18000 then he gets paid commision on the $500 he held.

If the UCM lowballs a trade then ya, he might be getting a little screwed but anyone who has sold cars for any amount of time has been on both ends and would much rather have a home run car sitting on hte used lot then make a $600 deal on a new car.

sterlingdog

I'm not surprised that you don't remember the scene. Movie critics will tell you that very few people remember the first 20 minutes of that particular movie. The shower scene blocks out everything that happened before. I know why I remember it. When Janet Leigh traded cars that morning, she traded for a car that looked exactly like my grandmother's

Richard

sterlingdog

"Plus that list really does not have any home runs on it,..."

You know me well enough to know that I'm not trying to be a smart [non-permissible content removed], but I have to ask. You have four deals on the list over $2k. Since that is only the front end, aren't those considered to be home runs?

Richard

snakeweasel

He must be trying to fool people into opening their wallets. His telephone number belongs to his telephone company provider. He doesn't "own" his number.

In most cases (not all) you do pretty much own the number. As long as you stay in the same geographical area (area code?) you can keep the number if you switch carriers. I am pretty sure you can transfer "ownership" of that number too. Its called local number portability.

However small land line providing companies may be exempt from this.

explorerx4

you could have asked him if his offer was for the front half or the back?

snakeweasel

However, when it comes to buying a car, especially a used car, it would be NICE to know how to go about the negotiating process.

I am going to agree with everyone else on this. Knowing that information is pretty meaningless. Say a particular car with same options approximate same miles and approximate same condition sells all the time for $15K does it matter that the dealer has $10K sunk in it? If he has a reasonable chance of selling the car for, or close to $15K in a reasonable amount of time why should he take say $12K you offer?

Conversely if he has $16K sunk in it would you offer $18K for a $15K car?

When I bought the ragtop I didn't worry about what was sunk into it by the dealership. I did know that the car with those options and mileage was worth a bit more than what they were asking for it and it was a real good deal (for me or anyone) regardless of what the dealership had sunk it it.

Research prices and values and go from there.

snakeweasel

And the fact is that no mass production car company in this world knows how much it cost them to make that car.

unless they only make one product the same can be said for any manufacturing company. There are many methods you can allocate indirect costs to the finished product.

snakeweasel

Why does service get to bill sales retail? Seems like they would charge just the true cost of parts and labor.

Thats pretty much standard business practice in any business that has multiple profit centers. Each center treats the other as a separate "non related" business. Of course its all intercompany transactions and gets reversed out when they are all combined to create the dealerships combined financial statements.

But it is a useful tool to gauge the profitability of each separate profit center. If you did have service and parts selling to the sales department at cost it would be harder to judge if you were charging enough to outsiders to cover the cost of providing those services.

Also if the sales department was stand alone and they had to get this service from some place else they wouldn't get it at cost either.

jipster

If he has a reasonable chance of selling the car for, or close to $15K in a reasonable amount of time why should he take say $12K you offer?

He probably wouldn't. But, he may very well opt for a quick profit of $4,000 and sell it for $14,000. As joel and several others have mentioned, maybe they take less of a profit on a car to meet a monthly quota, or to help a salesperson meet his. So, in not all cases, but some, knowing how much a dealer had in a car would be beneficial.

boomchek

$3k-4k and up are home runs.

boomchek

No. Holdback is not same as dealer pack.

Dealer pack is added on top of the invoice, and salespeople don't get paid on it.

It can vary from $100 to $2000 depending on the price of the car.

So if there's a vehicle invoiced at $20000, and MSRP is $23000, the pack might be $800, and commissionable gross is $2200.

jmonroe

Research prices and values and go from there.

‘snake’, since you responded to my post (41317), what part of that post do you disagree with? I think we are saying the same thing…a product must have value to the buyer for them to buy it. Regardless of what the seller paid for it, right?

Did someone give you an extra tough 1040A Short Form today?

That reminds me, I have to do my taxes pretty soon and I know I’m getting a refund this year. Not like last year when I had to pay the borough I live in 1.5% of my gross because the company that put me to work with my old employer didn’t deduct the local taxes. Man, did I ever have GRIEF from you know who for that one. FOR WEEKS !!!!

jmonroe

snakeweasel

Regardless of what the seller paid for it, right?

right

sterlingdog

Has it really been a year now since you made that dumb mistake? :P :shades: It seems like yesterday that she was chasing you around the house with the frying pan. If she had broken one of the dining room chairs over your head, she could have had new furniture. Just wait. The idea will come to her sooner or later.

Richard

sterlingdog

"I know that for people like you and Mr. Spock..."

You have to remember that he has a physics background---a very analytical thinker. People like that wouldn't even show emotions if they saw an atom bomb go off. They would simply think, "Well, the formula worked." :P :shades:

I agree with you. Buyer's fear and buyer's remorse are very real. Hell, I've been there many times.

Richard

joel0622

The Used car Dept is the best customer our Service Dept has.

snakeweasel

I agree with you. Buyer's fear and buyer's remorse are very real. Hell, I've been there many times.

I was worried about that in my recent purchase. Not mine but the wife having buyers remorse. So I made sure she was ok with the purchase, so far none (we are getting some positive feedback from others though :shades: ).

sterlingdog

You can have your telephone number held for you for one year---in case you move back to the same geographical area. We did that once. As for local number portability, you may transfer ownership within the same area code. I hardly think that you could sell the number on ebay, unless it was to someone within your area code. Perhaps that is what the man has in mind. Here again, I'm referring to land telephones only.

I have no idea what people do with their cell telephones. I don't leave mine on enough to find out. I hate that extra body appendage. My wife asked me to leave it on one evening during my class. I had never heard it ring before. Suddenly, we all hear John Phillip Sousa blast forth with "Stars and Stripes Forever". My students had to tell me that it was my telephone. Here the teacher is with a rule about cell phones being on, and mine goes off. They loved it.

Richard

sterlingdog

That positive feedback from others is a sure cure for buyer's remorse.

Richard

jmonroe

Has it really been a year now since you made that dumb mistake? It seems like yesterday that she was chasing you around the house with the frying pan.

You're right, it seems like just yesterday doesn't it?

Man, do I hate doing taxes. Even when I know I'm getting a refund I put it off. I know I better take my medicine and do it because the consequences are even worse.

jmonroe

sterlingdog

I have a solution for you. Since you know who keeps the checkbook, tell her that the keeper has to do the taxes. Only fair, right? Wait. That won't work. She'll put the refund on the furniture. I guess that you had better get busy.

Richard

snakeweasel

As for cell phones, I know people who have moved into different states and kept their old phone number. My niece has been here in Illinois for at least 7 years and still has her Colorado phone number on her cell phone. I get several clients that give me out of state phone numbers simply because the moved here and never changed their cell phone number.

Also note that the number of people that have done away with land lines and use only cell phones are growing.

snakeweasel

Man, do I hate doing taxes.

Then you are going to hate this, this year so far I have done 136 tax returns (including my own).

golic

Unlike cell phones who transmit over wireless networks, Land line portability is limited by network a switching station. I believe If you leave the geographic network, you can not keep that number.

Carriers purchase "blocks" of numbers from the FCC (??) or is it NEPPA?? and then doll out those numbers to users. When a user ends service, that number is "quarantined" for a defined period of time before it is re-assigned.

There is a difference between who "owns" your number and who "services" your number. The portability act allows numbers to be "serviced" by other carriers. So, if I leave Verizon to Sprint. Verizon has to "release" my number to Sprint and Sprint will now "service" that number. If I were to then cancel that Sprint phone. That phone number reverts back to Verizon to be reassigned.

golic

The closest i will come to getting my taxes done this year is filing the extension next week.

sterlingdog

Yes, of course. Where is my brain? When we moved here two years ago this month, we kept our same cell phone numbers. My nephew lives only an hour from us, but he still has his old Florida cell number.

Richard

driver100

we moved here two years ago this month, we kept our same cell phone numbers.

We have a Florida telephone number on our cell for one month in Florida and a few business trips a year.

I once used my Canadian cell in Florida for 2 minutes and they charged me $250 for a 5 hour call.

I said I couldn't speak for 5 hours...I don't have that much to say. Bell Canada said you probably left your phone on, it is impossible for the computer to be wrong. I said it was wrong and I'll prove it and I'll report them to the CRTC - like the FCC. So, he said how are you going to do that.
So, I said, my phone will only last for half an hour on roaming power.
So, they said for this one time they will wave the fee.

The next year, we bought a phone for $30 at what was then Radio Shack, and we pay 10 cents a minute to call anywhere in the U.S. or Canada.

stickguy

all this cell talk reminded me of this (although I may have related it before, maybe in CCBA).

anyway, in December my sister bought a new TSX (and I then "inherited" her 147K TL for my son).

So, on a Saturday, I get a text from her asking what is a good price to offer for a TSX. So, I look up TNV and prices paid on Edmunds, and even found a recent sale story from her neck of the woods.

So I call her back, and of course she had texted from the salesmans desk (nothing like planning ahead!), and by that time, papers were being produced (but not yet signed). So I give her my findings (a really skinny deal, like in invoice minus), which elicited a "hmmm".

Talked to her later, and the proce was certainly lower than what they had agreed on. She floated it to the sales folks, who got a pained looked on their faces.

Oh, key point: it was actually at the same dealer she was sitting at, so can't get much closer to apples to apples (hey, you sold the same exact car to a guy named Jim S. on 12/2 for $26,xxx)

They ended up giving her another $261 off (but did not match that other deal). She was happy, since if they said tough nuts, she was buying anyway!

And they had offered on the low end of trade value for the old car, which she sold to me instead. So a win-win.

Classic case of an impulse buy (she stopped in for a state inspection, and since they were backed up decided to wander in the showroom. 1/2 hour later, signing papers). If she had told me the day before she was likely to be doing this, I could have had her prepared with offer and go up to #s.

But, whe loves the car, and did OK on the deal, which is what counts.

sterlingdog

"So, I said, my phone will only last for half an hour on roaming power."

You were very clever to come up with that response! Isn't it interesting how they will always back down "this one time"?

Richard

joel0622

it really is amazing the number of people who buy a new car that when they woke up that morning had no idea they were going to do it. There intentions were to just get there oil changed, stop by for a copy of paper work for taxes, ask for directions, etc. The biggest compliment a customer can give a sales guy IMO is when they say, "No I don't have my title with me, I had no idea I was going to trade cars today".

joel0622

I hate cell phones. I miss the days when if some one wanted to call me they had to waiut till I got home. I went for years with the onluy people who new my cell # were my wife and daughter. Then one morning the owner got mad because he could not get ahold of me on my day off so he asked for every ones cell #. That was about 5 years ago and now every one has it.

sterlingdog

"All this cell talk..."; "In December my sister bought..."

At first I thought the TSX and 147k TL were cell phone models. Then I realized that they were cars. What make cars are they? I can never remember what all of these letters stand for in terms of what make goes with what make. Goodness! She went in for an inspection and bought a new car 30 minutes later. She certainly didn't waste the dealer's time.

Richard

sterlingdog

"I hate cell phones..."

Thank goodness someone agrees with me---and you are much younger than I am. Only four people have my number---all family. Some people can't go to the bath room without making or receiving a call. It's nice to have one for an emergency, but all of this talk during the day is ridiculous. A friend of ours called our land phone the other day. I asked him where he was at that moment. He said that he had just pulled up in our driveway! Pleasssseeee!!! :sick:

Richard

imidazol97

>Man, do I hate doing taxes. Even when I know I'm getting a refund I put it off. I know I better take my medicine and do it because the consequences are even worse.

Glad I'm not the only one finishing up taxes at this date.

driver100

Some people can't go to the bath room without making or receiving a call.

That's the truth.! I was in a public washroom the other day and the guys phone rings while he's at a urinal. He answers it and says "Oh hi Mary, yeh, not much, how are you doing?" And then proceeds with his conversation.

Apparently a lot of cell phones end up in the toilet from these conversations.

I was at a funeral a few weeks ago and someones cell phone rang!!!!!

mikefm58

it really is amazing the number of people who buy a new car that when they woke up that morning had no idea they were going to do it.

I too am astonished by the number of people that do that. It's the 2nd biggest purchase a person makes in their lifetime, behind a home being first. The difference between doing your homework and not is thousands of dollars, and could very easily be much more if they are unhappy with the new wheels and start the process again and then again.

imidazol97

>I was at a funeral a few weeks ago and someones cell phone rang!!!!!

Hopefully it was one of the attendees and not the deceased's phone... I know. Bad joke.

graphicguy

richard....I'm fairly pragmatic when it comes to buying, selling or trading a car. Either to my detriment, or to my credit, once I get stuck on a number after I do research, someone's going to be hard pressed to get me off it.....either buying or selling. Get close enough to the number on either side of the equation and I'll be tempted to "talk about it".

I think that's why I stay away from those places that use ADM stickers. Sure, you can negotiate those away. But, I view it as yet one more hinderance in getting to my number.

Long and short of it, if my Tahoe isn't going to bring a number I think is fair, so I'll keep it. I understand it's value isn't going to go up. But, that doesn't change the fact that it's still a very nice vehicle.

I already know I can make a great deal on an Acura TL. I can get real skinny on a Genesis, too. I don't need either one of them. I don't need to sell the Tahoe, either.

I've got no basis in fact to state this, but my gut tells me at some point, either the Hyundai dealer, or the Acura dealer is going to call me some day and say...."c'mon in and lets get aggressive on the car you want, and your trade".

I could be wrong, but I think that's how it will play out.

Until then, I'll parade the Tahoe around with a "for sale" sign in it and see what happens. I may even run a little newspaper ad to see what that brings.

driver100

I too am astonished by the number of people that do that.

My best friends ex wife was driving along and her car broke down. She went across the street to a dealership and bought a new car (he had no idea).

That was one of the last straws...that's when she became the "ex" or as he affectionately calls her, "the hex".

sterlingdog

I agree 100%. I'm bad about sticking to a number. On my last deal, they met my number---a first for me. Then they threw in the gap insurance. I didn't have to trade the lemon convertible in, but it would have been foolish not to do it.

I did take much time to trade---months. Still, it's a big purchase. In the end, taking my time paid off. I think that you are wise to just tread the waters slowly. Besides, one of those dealers may call you yet.

Richard

sterlingdog

"That was one of the last straws."

If my wife had done that, I wouldn't have been able to file for divorce. I would have been in ICU suffering from a stroke.

Richard

stickguy

Richard, they are both Acuras.

I would have gone to "help", but we live 3 hours apart. I had also discussed the concept, and given some suggestions of cars to look at, when we were together at thanksgiving. So she was at the point of being ready, so I don't think the wander into the showroom was quite accidental.

Now, she may not have been planning to buy on th espot, but she drove and loved the car, and decided since she was there, to git 'er dun!

Cell phones are a wonderful invention, but like all tools, only if used properly. I keep in way closer contact with my kids (in particular my 13 YO daughter) via texting then I could other wise from work.

chikoo

Acura

driver100

Long and short of it, if my Tahoe isn't going to bring a number I think is fair, so I'll keep it.

You could keep it and it might become a collectors item in a few years. Museums might be buying them to show examples of the great GM!

Actually, your Tahoe sounds like it is running fine and it will probably last a long time. You will be way ahead just to hang onto it until you really need a new car. Try to keep it listed though just in case....and the signs near the boaters is worth a try. The problem is some people detect it will be a hard sell, so they'll come in really low.

When we were in Florida there was a guy walking on the boulevard with sandwich boards, "2 bedroom Home for sale". I felt bad for him that it came down to this, but I don't know how many people would buy from a sign the poor guy was walking around with (sorry Richard - preposition at the end of a sentence and I don't have time to rethink the sentence) :sick:

golic

Some poster on the Pilot Prices paid forum sent out 73 YES 73, requests for quotes to every dealer within 150 miles of his Cincinnati home.

Isell, do you want to get in on this!!! I think you should completely low-ball him and he will go nuts trying to match the price!!

So far he has 3 replies...70 to go!!!

percussionist

...I know this isn't a sales story (unless you count the "selling" of services at the hospital), but I am a dad! My son Isaac was born Monday night - now it's snowing out! Lots of unusual occurrences this week!

Peace!