BMW wagon, but the nearest dealer is more than 300 miles from here
That's pretty far away for a car you may have to spend a lot of time at the dealer with
sell the last Cadillac from the previous model year and would I take a look
Always remember when you buy a "left over" the minute you drive it away, it not only depreciates like any car would, but it is 1 year old as far as trade in's go. Depending on the model that can mean an instant depreciation of $2000 to $4000, even in 4 years when you want to trade. If you drive them till they drop, it doesn't matter. Then again you probably wouldn't be looking at a Cadillac if that's the case
my theory could be correct....people by (buy) American because they don't know any better!
WoW, I'm guessing you're going to get a lot of hate mail on this board for that comment. At least you didn't call them stupid or ignorant. perhaps they'll miss the intent of what you said?
Posters please don't reply to my comment... I didn't say this, "driver 200" did
thank you for writing, because my theory could be correct....people by American because they don't know any better!
So because BMW did not have a dealership reasonably close to SLS, SLS is ignorant? What a crock!
Ignoring for the moment that SLS wanted a car Cadillac does not make, considering where your dealer is and how convenient services call will or will not be is an important overall issue in the car buying process.
If SLS is looking at makes other than BMW because BMW cannot be bothered to open a dealer where SLS lives, to the extent there is ignorance, the manufacturer that does not understand its own market is the ignoramus.
Posters please don't reply to my comment... I didn't say this, "driver 200" did
If you don't want us to reply to your post, why the bold language?
Driver200 says SLS does not know any better because he passed on buying something where he did not want to travel hundreds of miles for simple service calls.
Seems to me, SLS knew full well what he wanted, considered his options, and went with Cadillac. And the intent of Driver200 is to say that sort of informed decisions proves he does not know any better.
Talk to most BMW owners and they will tell you for the pure pleasure of having the ultimate driving machine....a few extra repairs aren't a big deal.
You are ignoring the issue.
It is not the few extra repairs SLS is pushing back on.
It is the fact BMW has ignored his market area.
An 3 series BMW is not much more than one of those Lucernes, and almost any review will say it is the standard of excellence in that category!
The Lucerne and 3 Series do not compete for the same buyer under any analysis. The CTS and the 3 Series do.
The CTS has done well in the segment. The 3 Series cycle is not in perfect synch with the CTS. This year Cadillac is selling the last year of its CTS model where the BMW has an all new 3 on the market. I expect CTS sales will dip a little as they do for all cars in their last model year. Next year, Cadillac will have a new CTS and sales will jump back up.
Sarcasm totally goes over the heads of most posters on this forum.
Duhhhh, perhaps when I said in bold that "perhaps they'll miss the intent of what you said" maybe I was drawing attention to it????
Replying to my post should be for those that don't like me commenting on this. However if you don't like what driver 200 said then reply to his post.
I would have been flogged last week by the group just for suggesting that Toyota makes quality vehicles. I don't think I came anywhere close to insulting the way of thinking of all Americans.
By the way, where the heck is Moldova? Do they have a sense of humor there?
I am saying it is too bad that SLS had to go with the Caddie because I think he would have gotten more enjoyment and probably better value from the BMW, however,
Read. Your. Original. Post.
You did not say it is too bad SLS did not get a BMW. You said SLS, by all accounts an informed auto buyer, proved your point people who buy American do not know what they are doing.
But, BMW doesn't have a dealership on every corner like GM does, and if their marketing studies showed SLS's area would support a dealership it would be there.
There is a significant difference in not having a dealership on every corner and not having one within 300 miles of someone's home.
If one buys a BMW, with its pretty good resale value, I would assume buying new would make perfect sense. They have the full coverage warranty, with services free. If buying a V8 Lucerne, it would make more sense, from a dollar saved perspective to just wait one to two years and buy it for $15K less. CTS is not a bad car, yet it lacks some basic features found on less expensive cars. Add a few things, and the price gets well out of sight on the CTS. If they add the right stuff in the base model of 2007, and sell it for the same base price, perhaps they are closer to its worth. But perhaps that's just me, everyone sees things differently - thus these are opinions.
The main thing is that the buyer is happy with his or her deal, and the car serves them well.
It is too bad that the dealer was so far away. I have a feeling you would have enjoyed the BMW a lot more than the Caddie. Even if a car costs say $5,000 more, and you keep it for 5 years that is less than $1000 a year because you will get more for a trade in. When it comes to cars, try to get what you want...you will enjoy it more, it will be worth more when you trade it in, and you might actually save money because you will be more willing to keep it longer.
I thank you for writing, because my theory could be correct....people by American because they don't know any better!
That's pretty far away for a car you may have to spend a lot of time at the dealer with
Talk to most BMW owners and they will tell you for the pure pleasure of having the ultimate driving machine....a few extra repairs aren't a big deal. Most GM's probably have a higher repair rate anyway. And when you add in the pleasure of driving and the fact the car will be worth a lot more in a few years, you will have a much better engineered car, it will still be in style for a long time, and you might actually keep it longer...you will still be ahead of the game....plus you might get some actual enjoyment from driving it! An 3 series BMW is not much more than one of those Lucernes, and almost any review will say it is the standard of excellence in that category!
dude, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason you stopped liking American cars was because you were choosing to buy LOUSY ONES? Jeeps are awful - probably near the bottom of the pile. The Cherokee sucked. People who disagree are suffering from dementia.
I own an American car. It has 90,000 miles on it. The dealer SUCKED, but the car has been fine. One $600 repair for its entire life (other than consumables). I've owned (and currently own) Euro, and I've owned japanese. Each car has its merits. My Acura Legend was an absolute maintenance/repair hog, but only after 60,000 miles. Before that, it was just expensive. After that, it became insane. (freakin undersized tranny - damn those cheap engineers)
I just drove my buddy's G35 (Infiniti) - plenty of power, but otherwise a piece of crap. Fun to drive - sort of. Lousy seats. Lousy/cheap interior. Nice exterior lines, I admit. Wroth the money? That's each person's choice.
Quite possibly. I just thought it would be an interesting excercise to see if I could place a circle somewhere in the U.S. having a radius of 300 miles without a single BMW dealer.
I'm guessing it could be done from somewhere in central/eastern Montana (no dealers anywhere in Montana, N. Dakota, or Wyoming).
Personally, I'd have a had time buying ANY car where the nearest service department was more than a couple of hours away.
If SLS is looking at makes other than BMW because BMW cannot be bothered to open a dealer where SLS lives, to the extent there is ignorance, the manufacturer that does not understand its own market is the ignoramus.
Hey Logic1...usually you are very logical, but this time you are over the top. I am saying it is too bad that SLS had to go with the Caddie because I think he would have gotten more enjoyment and probably better value from the BMW, however, I don't blame him for choosing a dealer that is nearby. But, BMW doesn't have a dealership on every corner like GM does, and if their marketing studies showed SLS's area would support a dealership it would be there. Better than building more dealerships than you need and getting into financial trouble, like some auto companies.
have to convert Canadian $'s to U.S. $'s but it seems to me a Lucerne at $32,000 will not be much less than a 3 Series BMW. Probably the lease rate for the Beemer will actually be less when you factor in depreciation. Even ownership might be less after depreciation. On that basis, I would say....the BMW is the better buy.
I am following you better now that you provide more detail.
My opinion on Lucerne and 3 is that the latter is a serious and smaller (though the latest version is getting kind of big) rwd sports sedan, while the former is a quiet running fwd luxury sedan.
GM competed with the BMW 3 seires fairly well with the CTS. The new 3 Series has pushed the competition to new levels. With the CTS in its last model year, it really cannot compete. But that is always the case when models do not have the same cycle.
The next generation CTS will debut this January at the NAIAS. If it does not hold its own against the 3 Series, I'll be the first to say so.
In the meantime, the Lucerne is more the ES300 competitor. It seems to do alright in some categories. I would not put either of these cars against the 3.
I'm guessing it could be done from somewhere in central/eastern Montana (no dealers anywhere in Montana, N. Dakota, or Wyoming).
Arguably, that shows BMW not doing its marketing homework. You have a lot of wealthy trust kids and investors making their homes in this region of the nation.
BMW does well with urban professionals. It should think about going after rural wealthy.
Messages are getting crossed here so let me repeat: SLS MADE A GOOD DECISION BASED ON THE FACTS. I WOULD NOT BUY A CAR FROM A DEALERSHIP 300 MILES AWAY. I am just saying, it is unfortunate that he couldn't buy the car he really wanted. I have to convert Canadian $'s to U.S. $'s but it seems to me a Lucerne at $32,000 will not be much less than a 3 Series BMW. Probably the lease rate for the Beemer will actually be less when you factor in depreciation. Even ownership might be less after depreciation. On that basis, I would say....the BMW is the better buy. If we want to make excuses about the CTS coming off its cycle or whatever, BMW is not affected too much by cycles...basically they are all pretty state of the art, and they don't get dated as easily. A 10 year old BMW looks better than 95% of any new car on the market.
Convenient dealer service is one of the things that would inform my decision.
I would most likely never buy a Buick (although a LaCrosse with the 3.6 and 6 speed auto if discounted has its merits).
But if I were looking at a Roadster, the Sky would get some consideration. If I were looking at a Sports Sedan, the CTS would get some consideration. And the light hybrid Green Line Vue would get my consideration as well.
BMW has competitve product in two of these categories. BMW may make a hybrid cute ute (ironically with a system it developed with GM). Until it has one, I cannot consider BMW in that category.
proved your point people who buy American do not know what they are doing.
This wasn't a fair statement for me to make. I am at work so sometimes my train of thought is interupted, fortunately I am the boss or I'd be fired by now.
Let me explain what I really meant. I always bought American cars and thought of Euro and Asian cars as inferior, as in lots of repairs, made with cheaper metal and plastic, not as strong etc etc. I had my mind made up I would just buy another Jeep, my 3rd in a row, but just for the fun of it I thought I would check out a ________ (Euro car). There is NO comparison.
An American car would have to be really special for me to go back. That is why I think most people who believe American cars are superior have not actually tried a Euro or Asian car. I have rented Hondas and Nissans and they are much better handling and give a more pleasureable driving experience IMO only.
People buy their car because they like it. Someone might like the soft mushy ride of a Buick and the actual feel of the road might mean nothing to them. I don't want to convert those people (enjoy your car). I just say, before you pay a lot of money for your next car, try a Toyota or VW or BMW...whatever is equal. I think a lot of us, including me, couldn't wait until we could be out working and actually buy the cars we dreamed of owning, Camaro's or Pontiacs....but probably not a Toyota or Honda. That's the reason for the question, "If you favor American built cars, did you try an Asian or Euro car, and why did you stay with the American car?"
P.S. There is one very good thing about American cars. If you are on a trip, you will probably be able to get it repaired a lot easier. If you have a Buick or Pontiac, or any American car enjoy it, you made a decision that suits you.
more of a 5-series contender? It might compete with the 3- on price, but size-wise it seems to line up closer to the 5-.
As for the Lucerne, I don't know what I'd pit it up against. In the Lexus lineup, in size it seems to go up against the LS430, but it's a fraction of the price, and I'm not even going to kid myself into thinking their direct competitors. I'd say the nicer versions of the LaCrosse kinda compare with the ES330, but the Lucerne is kind of in it's own field. It's like trying to find a German or Japanese equivalent of a 1983 Electra. A Volvo 740 or Toyota Cressida were priced about the same, but that was the only thing. It was a whole different league of car.
dude, did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason you stopped liking American cars was because you were choosing to buy LOUSY ONES?
I liked my two Jeeps very much and I tried Blazers (which were plagued with major problems) and Explorers (which I can't understand how it was #1 in sales - drove like a bad truck) before I bought it. The Cherokee Ltd is very much like a car, only larger. I had very few problems. Like I said, I was ready to buy another one. I have owned Oldsmobiles, one Camaro (good mechanically but pretty rough), Cavalier, Corsica (that car had the most repairs - but it did about 90,000 miles before falling completely apart and a few Malibus and a Plymouth and Ford in there. So, I when I tried this car I was skeptical. It was like, if I am paying this much for a smaller vehicle it better be pretty good - I just had to satisfy my curiosity to see what the big thing is about _________'s. Well, after you drive it, you will see why I couldn't go back to the Jeep which I liked. So, I am saying, if you are in the market, test an American car, a Euro and an Asian, you might have preconceived ideas of what is better. And in some cases, the American car could be better. As I said, they are easier to get repaired, they are usually larger, usually heavier with more protective steel around you (for urban driving), softer ride. Just don't make your mind up until you try one.
The cars you mentioned are all good choices, and I would consider them in their category too. I don't think GM has a great car and for sure not the best car in each category with the possible exception of the VUE hybrid, which is supposed to be the cheapest hybrid available due to new technology. I believe BMW wants to find other methods of conserving fuel, other than using batteries and this might be a wise move as batteries aren't ideal and the energy savings are far from proven.
Lexus doesnt have a vehicle to compete with the lucerne because it would then be nipping at toyota's avalon sales. The avalon would be direct competition for the lucerne.
The GM cars do approach the market differently from their German and Japanese competitors. As do Daimler's NA divisions and Ford.
In another forum, we are debating demographics. Maybe the better way to put it is the CTS and 3 Series market to a similar demographic as do the Lucerne and ES. The approaches are different, but price and content are similar.
To detail, a CTS and 3 Series will typically sell to someone buying their first luxury sport car, or someone who has decided not to go above the entry level price. The 5 Series is more likely for the seasoned luxury sport buyer.
The Lucerne and ES are aiming for committed luxury buyers.
The LaCrosse with its best options still seems to me as looking to get the buyers who would otherwise get an Avalon or a tricked out CamCord.
Admittedly, the LaCrosse with the 3.6, sport suspension, and six speed tranny is kind of a hard egg to figure. Especially if you can get a Buick dealer to part with one for around 25k or so (as I expect will happen). If you could get find one on the lot in black, add some better tires ...
I believe BMW wants to find other methods of conserving fuel, other than using batteries and this might be a wise move as batteries aren't ideal and the energy savings are far from proven.
BMW has made a working internal combustion engine that runs on hydrogen. This is truely exciting research that may pay off big time (and ensure generations to come will be able to enjoy the thrill of accelerating with an ICE long after oil has gone back the way of the dinosaurs from whence it came).
I live in Lander, Wyoming and the nearest BMW dealer (Idaho Falls, Idaho) is only 251 miles away, NOT 300 miles!
However, the nearest Mercedes-Benz dealer (Pocatello, Idaho) IS 300 miles away and the nearest Jaguar dealer (Salt Lake City, Utah) is 308 miles away! The nearest Infiniti and Lexus dealers (Murray, Utah) are 311 miles away.
The nearest Mazda dealers (Billings, Montana or Cheyenne) are 270 miles away. The nearest Volkswagen dealer (Casper) is 150 miles away and the nearest Honda dealer (Rock Springs) is 130 miles away.
As far as imported car dealers go, we do have a Toyota dealer in town and there is Nissan dealer only 25 miles away. We don't have any Starbucks either.
Surprisingly, you do see Mercedes, BMWs, Lexi, and Jaguars on the streets here (as well as Mazdas, Hondas and Volkswagens), but I don't recall ever seeing any Infiniti. We're so deprived!
I disagree about European cars offering better value than American cars. Japanese, yes IMO, But have you seen the prices on Passats and Jettas?? And they consistently rank at the bottom of reliability ranking, and cost a fortune to repair. I've never owned a Euro car, but have had friends that have owned recent VWs, and had major problems. I currently own two vehicles I've purchased new....A 2001 Silverado HD 4x4, and a 2004 Mazda 6s. I have a bit over 100, 000 miles on the truck, and have had hardly any problems with it. Still have all original ball joints even, and the truck is still remarkably rattle free , even the interior. I only have 20,000 on the Mazda, but love it so far. The dash does have a rattle that has to be fixed, however. I've also known a few friends that drove the crap out of lowly Cavaliers, without sinking much money into them. In my experience, the GM cars are quite bullet proof as far as reliability. Where they lose out to Japanese competition is refinement. Certainly, the Civic was a much better than the Cavalier, and was probably completely re-done five times while the Cav was merely "updated". GM needs to refine their products further, and really shorten their product cycles if the want to be competitive again.
How are sales of RWD cars, like the CTS up there in snow country? I am surprised that there is no Subaru dealer. Are most of the vehicles around your town SUV or trucks? I haven't been through Wyoming since 1994.
There is a BMW dealer in my State, however it is at the opposite end, about 325 miles away (one way). I live near the actual place where the HBO show Deadwood really was in real life. Dances with Wolves was, in part, filmed near here. Other BMW dealerships are about 350 to 400 miles away (one way) in the Denver area.
The Seville LS that I bought (list price $50,000) cost me about $40,000 - trade in of 98 Aurora (value about $12,000). The salesman said that they would have wanted more for the CTS at the time, which had the inflamous catera engine. I am happy with the Seville, but expected to drive it for 8 years before the depreciation would balance out for me.
At one time we did have a BMW dealer, plus Mercedes and Audi dealers, but all are now gone. Never had Lexus, but the toyota dealer tried to get one, but it did not fly. No Acura dealer either.
How about Subaru? I can see how the AWD would help when sporting around in the snow of the Black Hills. How is the big city ... Rapid City doing? New home projects under $250K? And Spearfish?
I guess it just is not BMW country up there. And FWD Cadillac may be just the ticket for snow? When I drove through there it was in late April -- light snow falling in Deadwood.
Will be interesting to see how the price holds on used Lucernes in years one and two aged. I am thinking somewhere around $18K to $20 for the V8 in about a couple years??? How will they compare as used cars to the Azera, by Hyundai? Seems like the race of the underdogs for resale value. Much rides now on GM not going into bankruptcy, and not having the UAW on strike. In what country is the Lucerne built? Same plant as Caddy? -Loren
Isn't a 3 series BMW a bit smaller than a Lucerne? Seems like pretty different market area.
3 is definitely smaller in size. But, that is part of the beauty of it. It is well balanced, better handling...not as big and clumsy. You will actually be more comfortable in the 3 because the seats are designed right.
If you are looking for big, go with the Buick...for refinement the 3. In the 3 you will feel like you are part of the car, in the Buick you will feel like the captain of a ship. Nothing wrong with that...it is why they have Buicks and M3's.
I was at the barber yesterday and he was discussing cars. He now drives a town car but used to drive cadillacs until he had a problem 20 years ago. Said he would probably try a cadillac again in two years because he heard the town car was going away. I asked what Cadillac and he said the biggest one. All his friends drive Devilles and Town Cars. He is just more comfortable in the large cars and can afford them. He was just turning 60 which to me is not that old.
You would never see him in a 3 series. They just do not compete. 3 series are like the Camaro's/ Mustangs /Corvettes of my youth. If you had a decent job, single or married w/o kids that is what you bought. The cool car.
SAN FRANCISCO -- General Motors shares jumped more than 8 percent Wednesday after Merrill Lynch raised its rating on the stock, citing that the automaker's restructuring plans, specifically the number of workers taking buyout packages, are coming along ahead of schedule. GM's GM stock, which has added about a third of its value since the beginning of the year, finished up $2.03 at $26.51.
Merrill Lynch analyst John Murphy upgraded GM to buy from neutral with a price target of $37 a share.
...just bought a new VW Jetta GLI. The interior of the car is gorgeous and is chock full 'o techno-wizardry. It has an autostick and Formula-1 style shifter paddles. Too bad they can't make a Cobalt interior as nice. Chevrolet dealers couldn't keep them on the lots. They'd be sold-out in hours.
The VW GLI is quite expensive - around $30K I believe. A base Jetta is around $21K. His car didn't have Nav. He got a break on the price because his Dad worked for VW back in the day.
jeeze, how did you people survive before FWD became popular in the late 70's and early 80's?! :surprise:
I'm in Maryland, which isn't exactly snow country, but we occasionally have some bad winters. And worse, we don't have the infrastructure to take care of the roads adequately when a storm does hit, so the roads are usually a mess. We've been getting lucky lately though, where the storms tend to hit on a weekend, so that gives adequate time for the streets to get cleared before the next workday.
Still, I see plenty of FWD, AWD, and 4WD vehicles off in the ditch, stuck, etc. And yet I have no problem with a 21 year old RWD standard-sized pickup with a light rear end! Did people just forget how to DRIVE, once they started getting spoiled by these non-RWD setups?
Heck, the answer is snow tires - preferably the studded kind. I got around just fine with full-size RWD sedans and wagons with a cheap set of Remington snow tires.
You will actually be more comfortable in the 3 because the seats are designed right.
Unless you're one of the unforunate ones that has to sit in the back.
Before you say it, I owned one. The 5 series is the minimum BMW for a small family with anything but small toddlers.
Additionally, if you are large framed, I'm 6'2" and 250#, the sport seats in the BMW, and the "regular" seats in the Audi (TT), Infiniti (FX45) and 350Z are too tight, (I owned these as well). Not so much as to keep me away, but just take getting used to. If your "other" vehicle is a Sequoia or Expedition (like mine were) you'll find yourself from time to time going into the garage and deciding on taking the "BIG one", depending on the length and type of trip.
I see posts of people stating they like BIG cars. Part of that is it makes them feel safe. However for a vast majority of big car drivers it's their size.
Here's where I think American manufactures miss the boat. I see huge people (300+#) driving little cars, perhaps because of economic reasons. In a country where we have a reputation for obesity, why is it that little cars have little seats and large SUV's have large seats? I can't imagine how many Cobalts GM could sell if the would remove the console and install two seats from a Tahoe. This is the second GREAT idea I've shared this week for GM to make money. ARE YOU LISTENING GM?
You would never see him in a 3 series. They just do not compete. 3 series are like the Camaro's/ Mustangs /Corvettes of my youth. If you had a decent job, single or married w/o kids that is what you bought.
I won't argue, some people think big is better. Maybe the more metal the more you get for your money...kind of like going to a buffet compared to a fine restaurant.
The first time I was in an M3 I was in the passenger seat, the salesman was driving (base model). First around a bend in the road at about 80 MPH and no tipping and no slowing down. I knew I couldn't have done it in any car I had ever owned. Then, he was going about 60, he was driving with 2 fingers on the steering wheel - and he pulled the car onto the shoulder. There were telephone poles, and a ditch, and I thought I was a gonner. The car didn't swerve or slide. The stability control analyzes each wheel, and computes what it should do, so you won't skid out of control. This was 11 years ago before anyone offered this as standard equipment. Try it in a Lucerne!
People who want the biggest Lincoln or Caddie money can buy either want lots of metal around them and the feeling of strength from all that steel OR they have arrived and want to show the world they have made it. IMO BMW M3 drivers appreciate the car and are buying it because of the experience and safety features. It is quietly elegant but certainly not a show boat.
Heck, I can't even remember the last time I even used a set of snow tires! As I recall, the only time I ever got into a bind with a RWD car is if I parked one of the drive wheels on ice, and then the next time I tried to move it, all the power would want to transfer to the wheel that was slipping. Although I've learned that FWD cars will do that too, but at least with FWD you can rock the steering wheel a bit, which sometimes helps the tires to bite in and move you.
Even all those years that I delivered pizzas, the only time I ever had a problem was one time I parked my Grandma's '85 LeSabre on ice in the parking lot, and when I went out on my next delivery, the wheel just spun. One of the other drivers saw me spinning, came out, and helped push me free.
Oh, I do remember one other driver, with an '80's FWD Corolla, did get stuck pretty good. But even once I got my Intrepid, in nasty/snowy weather, I'd always take the LeSabre out (it was in my name by then, so it wasn't a risk to Grandma's insurance). I wasn't worried about myself, as I could handle that car okay in the snow. I was worried about all the other idiots out there, and would rather them slam into a nice, sturdy battlecruiser that was paid in full back in the Reagan era, versus a fragile new car with almost 5 years of payments still on the books!
One of the keys to driving in snow is understanding basic physics. Many people drive like they're on asphalt pavement. With RWD less weight is on the rear wheels so you learned to treat the car the way it needed to keep on moving with the traction they had, snow tires or no snow tires.
When parking always move forward and backward a couple feet a few times to pack the snow under the wheels. Then as the warm tire melts into the snow with the pressure for a few minutes it won't form a little well of ice. RWD cars had trouble biting on that ice to get moving. FWD do it some but you can move the steering and get a little bite to get moving and then rock your way out.
It's the 4WD and AWD cars that look like fools here in middle Ohio when they plow themselves way off the road because they didn't have driving sense and thought their AWD, 4WD, Stability control would keep them on the road despite basic physics.
IMO BMW M3 drivers appreciate the car and are buying it because of the experience and safety features. It is quietly elegant but certainly not a show boat.
Seriuosly, most owners of an M3 are into some "bling". Sure they appreciate the car, not just for what it can do but for the "bling" as well. I don't honestly believe anyone spends $50+K simply for what it can do. Sitting low, nice rumble from the exhaust, wide tires, bright color_ Quietly elegant? Anyone who sees one knows it's ready to jump.
Comments
That's pretty far away for a car you may have to spend a lot of time at the dealer with
sell the last Cadillac from the previous model year and would I take a look
Always remember when you buy a "left over" the minute you drive it away, it not only depreciates like any car would, but it is 1 year old as far as trade in's go. Depending on the model that can mean an instant depreciation of $2000 to $4000, even in 4 years when you want to trade. If you drive them till they drop, it doesn't matter. Then again you probably wouldn't be looking at a Cadillac if that's the case
WoW, I'm guessing you're going to get a lot of hate mail on this board for that comment. At least you didn't call them stupid or ignorant. perhaps they'll miss the intent of what you said?
Posters please don't reply to my comment... I didn't say this, "driver 200" did
So because BMW did not have a dealership reasonably close to SLS, SLS is ignorant? What a crock!
Ignoring for the moment that SLS wanted a car Cadillac does not make, considering where your dealer is and how convenient services call will or will not be is an important overall issue in the car buying process.
If SLS is looking at makes other than BMW because BMW cannot be bothered to open a dealer where SLS lives, to the extent there is ignorance, the manufacturer that does not understand its own market is the ignoramus.
Posters please don't reply to my comment... I didn't say this, "driver 200" did
If you don't want us to reply to your post, why the bold language?
Driver200 says SLS does not know any better because he passed on buying something where he did not want to travel hundreds of miles for simple service calls.
Seems to me, SLS knew full well what he wanted, considered his options, and went with Cadillac. And the intent of Driver200 is to say that sort of informed decisions proves he does not know any better.
You are ignoring the issue.
It is not the few extra repairs SLS is pushing back on.
It is the fact BMW has ignored his market area.
An 3 series BMW is not much more than one of those Lucernes, and almost any review will say it is the standard of excellence in that category!
The Lucerne and 3 Series do not compete for the same buyer under any analysis. The CTS and the 3 Series do.
The CTS has done well in the segment. The 3 Series cycle is not in perfect synch with the CTS. This year Cadillac is selling the last year of its CTS model where the BMW has an all new 3 on the market. I expect CTS sales will dip a little as they do for all cars in their last model year. Next year, Cadillac will have a new CTS and sales will jump back up.
http://www.velocityjournal.com/images/full/1999/s99040106/ol2001au05.jpg
Duhhhh, perhaps when I said in bold that "perhaps they'll miss the intent of what you said" maybe I was drawing attention to it????
Replying to my post should be for those that don't like me commenting on this. However if you don't like what driver 200 said then reply to his post.
I would have been flogged last week by the group just for suggesting that Toyota makes quality vehicles. I don't think I came anywhere close to insulting the way of thinking of all Americans.
By the way, where the heck is Moldova? Do they have a sense of humor there?
Read. Your. Original. Post.
You did not say it is too bad SLS did not get a BMW. You said SLS, by all accounts an informed auto buyer, proved your point people who buy American do not know what they are doing.
But, BMW doesn't have a dealership on every corner like GM does, and if their marketing studies showed SLS's area would support a dealership it would be there.
There is a significant difference in not having a dealership on every corner and not having one within 300 miles of someone's home.
I do Sarcasm just fine. With apologies to a recently departed senator, 'I knew Oscar Wilde. And your original post is no Oscar Wilde.
Replying to my post should be for those that don't like me commenting on this. However if you don't like what driver 200 said then reply to his post.
I replied to Driver200's post. Before I replied to yours.
I don't think I came anywhere close to insulting the way of thinking of all Americans.
Who said anything about what you insulting people?
The main thing is that the buyer is happy with his or her deal, and the car serves them well.
Enjoy the ride!
-Loren
Even if a car costs say $5,000 more, and you keep it for 5 years that is less than $1000 a year because you will get more for a trade in. When it comes to cars, try to get what you want...you will enjoy it more, it will be worth more when you trade it in, and you might actually save money because you will be more willing to keep it longer.
I thank you for writing, because my theory could be correct....people by American because they don't know any better!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Talk to most BMW owners and they will tell you for the pure pleasure of having the ultimate driving machine....a few extra repairs aren't a big deal. Most GM's probably have a higher repair rate anyway. And when you add in the pleasure of driving and the fact the car will be worth a lot more in a few years, you will have a much better engineered car, it will still be in style for a long time, and you might actually keep it longer...you will still be ahead of the game....plus you might get some actual enjoyment from driving it!
An 3 series BMW is not much more than one of those Lucernes, and almost any review will say it is the standard of excellence in that category!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I own an American car. It has 90,000 miles on it. The dealer SUCKED, but the car has been fine. One $600 repair for its entire life (other than consumables). I've owned (and currently own) Euro, and I've owned japanese. Each car has its merits. My Acura Legend was an absolute maintenance/repair hog, but only after 60,000 miles. Before that, it was just expensive. After that, it became insane. (freakin undersized tranny - damn those cheap engineers)
I just drove my buddy's G35 (Infiniti) - plenty of power, but otherwise a piece of crap. Fun to drive - sort of. Lousy seats. Lousy/cheap interior. Nice exterior lines, I admit. Wroth the money? That's each person's choice.
I'm guessing it could be done from somewhere in central/eastern Montana (no dealers anywhere in Montana, N. Dakota, or Wyoming).
Personally, I'd have a had time buying ANY car where the nearest service department was more than a couple of hours away.
Hey Logic1...usually you are very logical, but this time you are over the top. I am saying it is too bad that SLS had to go with the Caddie because I think he would have gotten more enjoyment and probably better value from the BMW, however, I don't blame him for choosing a dealer that is nearby. But, BMW doesn't have a dealership on every corner like GM does, and if their marketing studies showed SLS's area would support a dealership it would be there. Better than building more dealerships than you need and getting into financial trouble, like some auto companies.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I am following you better now that you provide more detail.
My opinion on Lucerne and 3 is that the latter is a serious and smaller (though the latest version is getting kind of big) rwd sports sedan, while the former is a quiet running fwd luxury sedan.
GM competed with the BMW 3 seires fairly well with the CTS. The new 3 Series has pushed the competition to new levels. With the CTS in its last model year, it really cannot compete. But that is always the case when models do not have the same cycle.
The next generation CTS will debut this January at the NAIAS. If it does not hold its own against the 3 Series, I'll be the first to say so.
In the meantime, the Lucerne is more the ES300 competitor. It seems to do alright in some categories. I would not put either of these cars against the 3.
Arguably, that shows BMW not doing its marketing homework. You have a lot of wealthy trust kids and investors making their homes in this region of the nation.
BMW does well with urban professionals. It should think about going after rural wealthy.
SLS MADE A GOOD DECISION BASED ON THE FACTS. I WOULD NOT BUY A CAR FROM A DEALERSHIP 300 MILES AWAY.
I am just saying, it is unfortunate that he couldn't buy the car he really wanted.
I have to convert Canadian $'s to U.S. $'s but it seems to me a Lucerne at $32,000 will not be much less than a 3 Series BMW. Probably the lease rate for the Beemer will actually be less when you factor in depreciation. Even ownership might be less after depreciation. On that basis, I would say....the BMW is the better buy.
If we want to make excuses about the CTS coming off its cycle or whatever, BMW is not affected too much by cycles...basically they are all pretty state of the art, and they don't get dated as easily. A 10 year old BMW looks better than 95% of any new car on the market.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Convenient dealer service is one of the things that would inform my decision.
I would most likely never buy a Buick (although a LaCrosse with the 3.6 and 6 speed auto if discounted has its merits).
But if I were looking at a Roadster, the Sky would get some consideration. If I were looking at a Sports Sedan, the CTS would get some consideration. And the light hybrid Green Line Vue would get my consideration as well.
BMW has competitve product in two of these categories. BMW may make a hybrid cute ute (ironically with a system it developed with GM). Until it has one, I cannot consider BMW in that category.
proved your point people who buy American do not know what they are doing.
This wasn't a fair statement for me to make. I am at work so sometimes my train of thought is interupted, fortunately I am the boss or I'd be fired by now.
Let me explain what I really meant. I always bought American cars and thought of Euro and Asian cars as inferior, as in lots of repairs, made with cheaper metal and plastic, not as strong etc etc. I had my mind made up I would just buy another Jeep, my 3rd in a row, but just for the fun of it I thought I would check out a ________ (Euro car). There is NO comparison.
An American car would have to be really special for me to go back. That is why I think most people who believe American cars are superior have not actually tried a Euro or Asian car. I have rented Hondas and Nissans and they are much better handling and give a more pleasureable driving experience IMO only.
People buy their car because they like it. Someone might like the soft mushy ride of a Buick and the actual feel of the road might mean nothing to them. I don't want to convert those people (enjoy your car). I just say, before you pay a lot of money for your next car, try a Toyota or VW or BMW...whatever is equal. I think a lot of us, including me, couldn't wait until we could be out working and actually buy the cars we dreamed of owning, Camaro's or Pontiacs....but probably not a Toyota or Honda. That's the reason for the question, "If you favor American built cars, did you try an Asian or Euro car, and why did you stay with the American car?"
P.S. There is one very good thing about American cars. If you are on a trip, you will probably be able to get it repaired a lot easier. If you have a Buick or Pontiac, or any American car enjoy it, you made a decision that suits you.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
As for the Lucerne, I don't know what I'd pit it up against. In the Lexus lineup, in size it seems to go up against the LS430, but it's a fraction of the price, and I'm not even going to kid myself into thinking their direct competitors. I'd say the nicer versions of the LaCrosse kinda compare with the ES330, but the Lucerne is kind of in it's own field. It's like trying to find a German or Japanese equivalent of a 1983 Electra. A Volvo 740 or Toyota Cressida were priced about the same, but that was the only thing. It was a whole different league of car.
I liked my two Jeeps very much and I tried Blazers (which were plagued with major problems) and Explorers (which I can't understand how it was #1 in sales - drove like a bad truck) before I bought it. The Cherokee Ltd is very much like a car, only larger. I had very few problems. Like I said, I was ready to buy another one. I have owned Oldsmobiles, one Camaro (good mechanically but pretty rough), Cavalier, Corsica (that car had the most repairs - but it did about 90,000 miles before falling completely apart and a few Malibus and a Plymouth and Ford in there.
So, I when I tried this car I was skeptical. It was like, if I am paying this much for a smaller vehicle it better be pretty good - I just had to satisfy my curiosity to see what the big thing is about _________'s. Well, after you drive it, you will see why I couldn't go back to the Jeep which I liked. So, I am saying, if you are in the market, test an American car, a Euro and an Asian, you might have preconceived ideas of what is better.
And in some cases, the American car could be better. As I said, they are easier to get repaired, they are usually larger, usually heavier with more protective steel around you (for urban driving), softer ride. Just don't make your mind up until you try one.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The GM cars do approach the market differently from their German and Japanese competitors. As do Daimler's NA divisions and Ford.
In another forum, we are debating demographics. Maybe the better way to put it is the CTS and 3 Series market to a similar demographic as do the Lucerne and ES. The approaches are different, but price and content are similar.
To detail, a CTS and 3 Series will typically sell to someone buying their first luxury sport car, or someone who has decided not to go above the entry level price. The 5 Series is more likely for the seasoned luxury sport buyer.
The Lucerne and ES are aiming for committed luxury buyers.
The LaCrosse with its best options still seems to me as looking to get the buyers who would otherwise get an Avalon or a tricked out CamCord.
Admittedly, the LaCrosse with the 3.6, sport suspension, and six speed tranny is kind of a hard egg to figure. Especially if you can get a Buick dealer to part with one for around 25k or so (as I expect will happen). If you could get find one on the lot in black, add some better tires ...
BMW has made a working internal combustion engine that runs on hydrogen. This is truely exciting research that may pay off big time (and ensure generations to come will be able to enjoy the thrill of accelerating with an ICE long after oil has gone back the way of the dinosaurs from whence it came).
However, the nearest Mercedes-Benz dealer (Pocatello, Idaho) IS 300 miles away and the nearest Jaguar dealer (Salt Lake City, Utah) is 308 miles away! The nearest Infiniti and Lexus dealers (Murray, Utah) are 311 miles away.
The nearest Mazda dealers (Billings, Montana or Cheyenne) are 270 miles away. The nearest Volkswagen dealer (Casper) is 150 miles away and the nearest Honda dealer (Rock Springs) is 130 miles away.
As far as imported car dealers go, we do have a Toyota dealer in town and there is Nissan dealer only 25 miles away. We don't have any Starbucks either.
Surprisingly, you do see Mercedes, BMWs, Lexi, and Jaguars on the streets here (as well as Mazdas, Hondas and Volkswagens), but I don't recall ever seeing any Infiniti. We're so deprived!
I've never owned a Euro car, but have had friends that have owned recent VWs, and had major problems.
I currently own two vehicles I've purchased new....A 2001 Silverado HD 4x4, and a 2004 Mazda 6s.
I have a bit over 100, 000 miles on the truck, and have had hardly any problems with it. Still have all original ball joints even, and the truck is still remarkably rattle free , even the interior. I only have 20,000 on the Mazda, but love it so far. The dash does have a rattle that has to be fixed, however.
I've also known a few friends that drove the crap out of lowly Cavaliers, without sinking much money into them.
In my experience, the GM cars are quite bullet proof as far as reliability. Where they lose out to Japanese competition is refinement. Certainly, the Civic was a much better than the Cavalier, and was probably completely re-done five times while the Cav was merely "updated".
GM needs to refine their products further, and really shorten their product cycles if the want to be competitive again.
The only good thing abou that :lemon: (VW) was that it held its value. My Saturn had horrible reliability and horrible resale....
So how many Miatas are on the road there
-Loren
The Seville LS that I bought (list price $50,000) cost me about $40,000 - trade in of 98 Aurora (value about $12,000). The salesman said that they would have wanted more for the CTS at the time, which had the inflamous catera engine. I am happy with the Seville, but expected to drive it for 8 years before the depreciation would balance out for me.
At one time we did have a BMW dealer, plus Mercedes and Audi dealers, but all are now gone. Never had Lexus, but the toyota dealer tried to get one, but it did not fly. No Acura dealer either.
I guess it just is not BMW country up there. And FWD Cadillac may be just the ticket for snow? When I drove through there it was in late April -- light snow falling in Deadwood.
Will be interesting to see how the price holds on used Lucernes in years one and two aged. I am thinking somewhere around $18K to $20 for the V8 in about a couple years??? How will they compare as used cars to the Azera, by Hyundai? Seems like the race of the underdogs for resale value. Much rides now on GM not going into bankruptcy, and not having the UAW on strike.
In what country is the Lucerne built? Same plant as Caddy?
-Loren
3 is definitely smaller in size. But, that is part of the beauty of it. It is well balanced, better handling...not as big and clumsy. You will actually be more comfortable in the 3 because the seats are designed right.
If you are looking for big, go with the Buick...for refinement the 3. In the 3 you will feel like you are part of the car, in the Buick you will feel like the captain of a ship. Nothing wrong with that...it is why they have Buicks and M3's.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
You would never see him in a 3 series. They just do not compete. 3 series are like the Camaro's/ Mustangs /Corvettes of my youth. If you had a decent job, single or married w/o kids that is what you bought. The cool car.
after Merrill Lynch raised its rating on the stock, citing that the
automaker's restructuring plans, specifically the number of workers taking
buyout packages, are coming along ahead of schedule.
GM's GM stock, which has added about a third of its value since the
beginning of the year, finished up $2.03 at $26.51.
Merrill Lynch analyst John Murphy upgraded GM to buy from neutral with a
price target of $37 a share.
I'm in Maryland, which isn't exactly snow country, but we occasionally have some bad winters. And worse, we don't have the infrastructure to take care of the roads adequately when a storm does hit, so the roads are usually a mess. We've been getting lucky lately though, where the storms tend to hit on a weekend, so that gives adequate time for the streets to get cleared before the next workday.
Still, I see plenty of FWD, AWD, and 4WD vehicles off in the ditch, stuck, etc. And yet I have no problem with a 21 year old RWD standard-sized pickup with a light rear end! Did people just forget how to DRIVE, once they started getting spoiled by these non-RWD setups?
Okay, rant over. :P
Unless you're one of the unforunate ones that has to sit in the back.
Before you say it, I owned one. The 5 series is the minimum BMW for a small family with anything but small toddlers.
Additionally, if you are large framed, I'm 6'2" and 250#, the sport seats in the BMW, and the "regular" seats in the Audi (TT), Infiniti (FX45) and 350Z are too tight, (I owned these as well). Not so much as to keep me away, but just take getting used to. If your "other" vehicle is a Sequoia or Expedition (like mine were) you'll find yourself from time to time going into the garage and deciding on taking the "BIG one", depending on the length and type of trip.
I see posts of people stating they like BIG cars. Part of that is it makes them feel safe. However for a vast majority of big car drivers it's their size.
Here's where I think American manufactures miss the boat. I see huge people (300+#) driving little cars, perhaps because of economic reasons. In a country where we have a reputation for obesity, why is it that little cars have little seats and large SUV's have large seats? I can't imagine how many Cobalts GM could sell if the would remove the console and install two seats from a Tahoe. This is the second GREAT idea I've shared this week for GM to make money. ARE YOU LISTENING GM?
I won't argue, some people think big is better. Maybe the more metal the more you get for your money...kind of like going to a buffet compared to a fine restaurant.
The first time I was in an M3 I was in the passenger seat, the salesman was driving (base model). First around a bend in the road at about 80 MPH and no tipping and no slowing down. I knew I couldn't have done it in any car I had ever owned. Then, he was going about 60, he was driving with 2 fingers on the steering wheel - and he pulled the car onto the shoulder. There were telephone poles, and a ditch, and I thought I was a gonner. The car didn't swerve or slide.
The stability control analyzes each wheel, and computes what it should do, so you won't skid out of control. This was 11 years ago before anyone offered this as standard equipment. Try it in a Lucerne!
People who want the biggest Lincoln or Caddie money can buy either want lots of metal around them and the feeling of strength from all that steel OR they have arrived and want to show the world they have made it. IMO BMW M3 drivers appreciate the car and are buying it because of the experience and safety features. It is quietly elegant but certainly not a show boat.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That's encouraging UNLESS you are one of those (millions of shares) that bought it at $90 and you're waiting until it gets back at that level. NOT.
Even all those years that I delivered pizzas, the only time I ever had a problem was one time I parked my Grandma's '85 LeSabre on ice in the parking lot, and when I went out on my next delivery, the wheel just spun. One of the other drivers saw me spinning, came out, and helped push me free.
Oh, I do remember one other driver, with an '80's FWD Corolla, did get stuck pretty good. But even once I got my Intrepid, in nasty/snowy weather, I'd always take the LeSabre out (it was in my name by then, so it wasn't a risk to Grandma's insurance). I wasn't worried about myself, as I could handle that car okay in the snow. I was worried about all the other idiots out there, and would rather them slam into a nice, sturdy battlecruiser that was paid in full back in the Reagan era, versus a fragile new car with almost 5 years of payments still on the books!
When parking always move forward and backward a couple feet a few times to pack the snow under the wheels. Then as the warm tire melts into the snow with the pressure for a few minutes it won't form a little well of ice. RWD cars had trouble biting on that ice to get moving. FWD do it some but you can move the steering and get a little bite to get moving and then rock your way out.
It's the 4WD and AWD cars that look like fools here in middle Ohio when they plow themselves way off the road because they didn't have driving sense and thought their AWD, 4WD, Stability control would keep them on the road despite basic physics.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Seriuosly, most owners of an M3 are into some "bling". Sure they appreciate the car, not just for what it can do but for the "bling" as well. I don't honestly believe anyone spends $50+K simply for what it can do. Sitting low, nice rumble from the exhaust, wide tires, bright color_ Quietly elegant? Anyone who sees one knows it's ready to jump.