Yes, there are thousands that like the looks of the HHR. It's not a bad little wagon. Comes off as a knock-off of a PT, in some ways, yet it is not actually the same. It is more van like, or baby old time Suburban, compared to the PT which is more like the older whiskey runner days auto. If you do not like something out of the ordinary, the Accord is very bland, and may suit your taste. The MAXX is better than the standard Malibu in that it has a little character. I would prefer that non of these cars use the Malibu heritage name, as they are not in the same class and style league as those of days-gone-bye. The MAXX is odd enough though to be kinda interesting to look at -- nothing I would buy. -Loren
I, like many others who buy it, like the HHR. Very different and cool. Unfortunately it is way too small for me. Otherwise I would have one next month.
Next month the IQS2 is announced. They have greatly changed the questionaire and all the OEM's are on pins and needles. Perhaps Toyota and Honda will make it back to the top like the way they were 4 years ago and GM will drop off?
At least the Japanese are building plants in the US and providing new jobs. They don't have to. GM and Ford move their operations to canada and Mexico and have layoffs. Who's the real American lover. If GM moves out of the US to compete, then why is it Toyota moves to the US?
GM is not building new plants elsewhere to supply the US. They are just closing plants due to overcapacity / competition. Actually the last plant they opened was in Lansing (michigan). GM has always had plants in Canada because Canada is a major market for GM and the US. Mexico is a very minor player in assembling vehicles for US.
Perhaps this is one reason why the transplants are building here?
Toyota is not making long term commitments to this country or it's workers. I wonder why?
Unfortunately that is the nature of the capitalist system. Workers are only needed as long as they have something valuable to build. No job is guaranteed unless you are a benficiary of UAW contract.
The interesting thing is when they have trouble with their Honda they seem to overlook it; same for Toyo products. Check the Odyssey, Civic, Accords, and various Toyo discussions on Edmunds.
I have owned one GM product (Saturn), one Ford product, eight Japanese (4 Nissan, 3 Mazda, 1 Honda), and one European (VW). The GM, Ford, and Euro (Saturn and VW being the worst) vehicles were by far the worst engineered vehicles, had the most problems, had the worst fit and finish and had the worst resale value.
As an informed, intelligent buyer I believe in purchasing the best vehicle for my hard earned dollars. As a veteran (101st Airborne Division), I consider myself a patriot and a proud American. My Honda Odyssey was made in Alabama with American hands. I would not hesitate for a second to buy a GM/Ford product if it was the best product on the market.
I have not personally created GM/Fords problems they have done that to themselves with inferior products, that have questionable reliability, safety, and resale issues. They have helped to create the mess they are in with the union, and will have to claw their way back to prove themselves against the Japanese (and now Koreans).
My father was a die-had GM man and has now moved over to Toyota (Highlander) after he finally opened his eyes and realized that there was a better product on the market that held its value.
Judging from your post I really wonder who the sheep is.
If you do not like something out of the ordinary, the Accord is very bland, and may suit your taste.
Actually I've recently (since 2000) owned an Audi TT, (2) 300ZX's, 350Z, and just traded my Infiniti FX45. I would not call that "ordinary", nor describe my taste as bland.
Fortunately for GM there are thousands that would buy anything with the GM name.
Oh, I also sold my 1970 Chevelle Malibu about 2 years back. You're right Maxx should not be associated with the Malibu heritage
That is the old spin GM, Ford and Chrysler salespeople have used for years. Nothing new - nothing true. Fact is the car are different. Take a look at Consumers Reports eight years data for number of problems per 100 cars. In that time period Honda and Toyota cars did better by far. Nearest was Ford at double the number of problems. -Loren
Thank you for the sacrifice you made to our country! God Bless our veterans and the USA.
If we shouldn't think with a world view then we should never send our young men overseas to fight for these foreigners! We created capitalism and the free market. It's our game. In this "game" of life we can't take our ball and go home we have to compete.
I say, the search is on for Rocky. Has the evil Empire of Toyota kidnapped Rocky? Will GM find him in time to save the posts on this board? Stay tuned!!! -Loren
OK, making jobs, building cars here, spending billions, building facilities... all not part of long term investment.
I'm totaly lost as to what it would take for you to consider them long term investors. Do you consider any American companies as long term investors and if so what makes them different?
In our area and in friend's area in TN next to Nissan's plant there are all these plants Walmart built and abandoned for better locations. That will be the foreigners after they kill the US automakers. Do you see any VCR, TV, DVD player companies manufacturing here?
The domestics spend millions of dollars here on charities. I just attended a local Juvenile diabetes auction here. GM has given millions of dollars over the years just to this charity. They were there and they were still giving. GM is spending millions in improving the downtown Detroit waterfront to turn it from a concrete silo/trash heap into a waterfront like many other cities have. This is what the domestics do.
It's nice for others to make offhand, selfrighteous comments about foreign companies and shutting down the domestics, but probably a large chunk of their area's economy is based on those domestic's operation and their retiree's incomes from the retirement checks along with the medical services provided to those retirees being a part of the economy if they're in any areas which were close to any of the main suppliers sites through the 70s and 80s and 90s.
Florida and Arizona are probably big money flow areas by retirees having moved there. I am sure many areas of Ohio have large parts of their economies fed by those retirement funds.
Fact is, the Honda and Toyota cars are different in long term durability, compared to the GM and Ford. It shows in the data. In the first three to five years, it may not matter. And there are other things to consider when buying a car. Not saying GM has not improved. It is possible they may do better in the future as an eight year car. Just going by the collected data over an eight year period of time.
Now that they have worked on reliability issues on GM cars, we all would like to see longer warranties. -Loren
I hope GM is here for the long haul, and not moving car building operations to China. I am sure they can sell in China, as more and more cars are needed there. The Chinese seem to like Buicks. Will those Buicks come from America or China?
Wonder if people will buy the Chery cars from China? Has nothing to do with the forum question asked here about style saving GM, but I do wonder if China will soon be a player in the US and World market. -Loren
Here is what he stated, in its entirety, followed by my comments.
As stated in my post, I wish I had saved the article about the Japanese car owner study that showed these people don't report all the problems on questionnaires, and yes some dealers are convincing disgruntled customers that these problems are normal. Yes I have known of these people with one friend claiming that he never had to pay for any work on his car only to find out that the warranty covered his clutch repairs. So yes, people are not telling the truth, and some foreign owners are embarrassed when things go wrong, and hate to admit it.
"I wished I had saved the study." So we have no links to the so-called "study," just Poncho's memory. There was some nonsense originally posted on allpar.com purporting to show (more like speculate) on how Japanese car owners are "different" along the lines that Honda drivers keep their garages cleaner. The gist was that these alleged differences caused all sorts of biases in the Consumer Reports reliability surveys.
"...some dealers are convincing disgruntled customers that these problems are normal" And you're telling me that this is limited to dealers of Japanese makes? That's one of the oldest lines in the book.
"Yes I have known of these people with one friend claiming..." Real convincing here -- who are these people and what problems did they supposedly have? The only one he cites had a clutch problem that was repaired under warranty. Is that so bad? If the warranty covers a major repair, isn't that fine since it apparently was done with no hassle (and by definition with no cost outlay on the part of the owner)?
"So yes, people are not telling the truth, and some foreign owners are embarrassed when things go wrong, and hate to admit it." Show me the evidence; if you look right here on Edmunds, owners of any make and model aren't shy about reporting their problems, whether real or much ado about nothing.
Oh I forgot, they'll gripe on Edmunds but not report them (anonymously) to Consumer Reports or old JD!
The fact of the matter is that most Americans are smart consumers and will typically buy the best product on the market, no matter the country of origin. It is called freedom of choice.
The fact of the matter is that many, many Americans have risked their lives and even died defending this freedom (and many other freedoms).
The fact of the matter is that Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai are all gaining market share in the US and are building plants here, hiring American workers, and are pumping money into the US economy. People can argue about short term or long haul, or whatever they want, but I like to stick to reality. For example: New Honda Plant
I, personally, think competition is a good thing and giving consumers choice is a good thing. GM has the money, technology, resources and people to make innovative vehicles that will have high demand. They just need to execute. If they build a better car than Toyota, Honda, and others, people will buy their vehicles again.
"Redneck" - anyone who buys a Chevy or Ford pickup
Heck, I drive an '85 Silverado. And I'll be the first to admit that I like watermelon, greens, and greasy fried food, and I watch "Mama's Family" reruns. And until just recently, I even had a refrigerator out on the porch! :P
But I don't think I could ever kill anything unless it was trying to break into the house or rob me or something along those lines. :shades:
It's easy to spot the difference - Redneck trucks have a gunrack in the back window, confederate flag on the back somewhere, and the windows down fer spittin' and shootin' rabbits....
Ordinary trucks lack all of the above, and usually have a vanity plate on the back that says something like "Docstrk".
I am not sure how patriotic it is to demand more in wages and health benefits than your company can afford. That leaves your employer in a situation where he can't do the research to make a better product....which can compete with foreign makes.
Then, they turn it around and say the consumer is not patriotic because they buy the superior product which can be produced at a lower price.
The most expensive component in a GM car is $1500 in health benefits to the worker. If that $1500 is put into the actual building of the car, you would get a lot more car for the money!
I would prefer to buy American/Canadian any time, if the product is at least equal to to the foreign competition.
I think I spotted Rocky driving a Honda Civic in Austin TX.
FINALLY! A "american" car we can actually want. I think this could be very, very good for GM. I say drop all the "american" designed GM cars and brin gover the Euro designed ones. There much better!
Earlier in the debate someone brought up that forign companies invest and help the economy here in america... That is just wrong. Gm is still the largest car maufacturer and seller on the planet, also when it comes to jobs, 8 out of ten cars are made by people, When it comes to toyota and honda, 4 out of ten are made by people. Who is supporting the american economy the most: GM. Buy american
Gm is still the largest car maufacturer and seller on the planet, also when it comes to jobs, 8 out of ten cars are made by people, When it comes to toyota and honda, 4 out of ten are made by people.
Where did you come up with your figures -- if true, that means GM is only half as productive as Toyota and Honda. :confuse: Or maybe that's why GM is losing money hand-over-fist and Toyota and Honda are raking in the profits?
BTW, Toyota is about to pass GM this year as the largest manufacturer and seller of cars worldwide.
"Gm is still the largest car maufacturer and seller on the planet"
Does not mean they are gods gift to the Automobile. There are ALOT better choices out there than a comparable GM product IMO. Oh crap, I just exercised my "freedom of choice" right as an American.
It's total nonsense. The NUUMI plant in California contributes almost 2 *billion* dollars into the U.S. economy in salaries, upkeep, taxes, and all the rtest of what it takes to keep it working(plus all the various transportation costs).
What company it is really doesn't matter - that it's in the U.S. is. Canada or Mexico isn't doing a darn thing for our economy anymore than Korea or Japan.
Honda wants to build another U.S. plant and employ a few thousand more employees. GM - laying people off.
The original comment was that GM is building plants elsewhere to build vehicles and closing assembly plants here. All I said was that GM is not building plants elsewhere to supply the US with vehicles. They are closing plants due to overcapacity.
The 3.4 engine built in China is temporary until the Equinox/Torrent replacements are ready.
I've been off drinking the "GM Kool-Aid" Loren. I got to read alot about GM and there future. I've tried to keep up with the forums and thank you for noticing I was gone.
Loren, I really am liking the new Saturn Aura, and what it means to General Motors. The Opel styling is really helping out the Saturn brand. My friends and family really like it alot and my mom asked about it last night. I told her that perhaps she should consider a Aura when her lease is up on the G6. I told her by then the Aura should have a "develish" redline version out.
$3 GASOLINE: REALITY SETS IN Four-bangers get a big boost
If you thought you felt the earth shift a bit during the middle of April, it wasn't your imagination: That's when U.S. vehicle buyers began a startling move toward four-cylinder vehicles and away from V-8s. A combination of high fuel prices and a flood of new four-cylinder vehicles has moved the needle toward smaller engines. story http://www.autonews.com
Do you think those 4-cylinders will be turbocharged to keep performance up while maintaining good mpg ? I do agree that the return of the 4-Cylinder is coming back. Lotus Esprit type engines will be featured in Corvette's :surprise: Well maybe I shouldn't go that far. OTOH I do think the buying public will look torwards 4-Cylinder Turbo engines to move there High Performance Sedans like the Mazdaspeed or the Subaru Legacy Spec B. these 2 car company's are ahead of the curve. They make nice cars that offer good fuel economy while giving the consumer a great all around all-season vehicle. I'd love to see GM build a car like the Legacy, with Acura/Lexus fit and finish.
Comments
I believe he is currently in rehab after OD-ed on GM brand CoolAid.
GM is not building new plants elsewhere to supply the US. They are just closing plants due to overcapacity / competition. Actually the last plant they opened was in Lansing (michigan). GM has always had plants in Canada because Canada is a major market for GM and the US. Mexico is a very minor player in assembling vehicles for US.
Perhaps this is one reason why the transplants are building here?
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060520/AUTO01/605200422/1148-
Toyota is not making long term commitments to this country or it's workers. I wonder why?
Unfortunately that is the nature of the capitalist system.
Workers are only needed as long as they have something valuable to build. No job is guaranteed unless you are a benficiary of UAW contract.
The interesting thing is when they have trouble with their Honda they seem to overlook it; same for Toyo products. Check the Odyssey, Civic, Accords, and various Toyo discussions on Edmunds.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As an informed, intelligent buyer I believe in purchasing the best vehicle for my hard earned dollars. As a veteran (101st Airborne Division), I consider myself a patriot and a proud American. My Honda Odyssey was made in Alabama with American hands. I would not hesitate for a second to buy a GM/Ford product if it was the best product on the market.
I have not personally created GM/Fords problems they have done that to themselves with inferior products, that have questionable reliability, safety, and resale issues. They have helped to create the mess they are in with the union, and will have to claw their way back to prove themselves against the Japanese (and now Koreans).
My father was a die-had GM man and has now moved over to Toyota (Highlander) after he finally opened his eyes and realized that there was a better product on the market that held its value.
Judging from your post I really wonder who the sheep is.
Actually I've recently (since 2000) owned an Audi TT, (2) 300ZX's, 350Z, and just traded my Infiniti FX45. I would not call that "ordinary", nor describe my taste as bland.
Fortunately for GM there are thousands that would buy anything with the GM name.
Oh, I also sold my 1970 Chevelle Malibu about 2 years back. You're right Maxx should not be associated with the Malibu heritage
Spending $1B in WV and KY facilities is not long term???
Then again I guesss you're right, that's not a lot of money compared to GM. Heck, GM can lose that much in one quarter.
-Loren
Thank you for the sacrifice you made to our country! God Bless our veterans and the USA.
If we shouldn't think with a world view then we should never send our young men overseas to fight for these foreigners! We created capitalism and the free market. It's our game. In this "game" of life we can't take our ball and go home we have to compete.
-Loren
I'm totaly lost as to what it would take for you to consider them long term investors. Do you consider any American companies as long term investors and if so what makes them different?
poncho167, "Chevrolet Impala 2006+" #1243, 16 Mar 2006 7:27 am
This guy had read the article also. Go look it up instead of just dismissing it with the usual passoff.
>Consumers Reports eight years data for number of problems per 100 cars
Do you have real data rather than Consumer's Report's opinion and sort of data collected methods?
>Fact is the car
areis differentI'm not sure what this means?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There were and are here for the long haul.
Florida and Arizona are probably big money flow areas by retirees having moved there. I am sure many areas of Ohio have large parts of their economies fed by those retirement funds.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In the first three to five years, it may not matter. And there are other things to consider when buying a car. Not saying GM has not improved. It is possible they may do better in the future as an eight year car. Just going by the collected data over an eight year period of time.
Now that they have worked on reliability issues on GM cars, we all would like to see longer warranties.
-Loren
I hope GM is here for the long haul, and not moving car building operations to China. I am sure they can sell in China, as more and more cars are needed there. The Chinese seem to like Buicks. Will those Buicks come from America or China?
Wonder if people will buy the Chery cars from China? Has nothing to do with the forum question asked here about style saving GM, but I do wonder if China will soon be a player in the US and World market.
-Loren
As stated in my post, I wish I had saved the article about the Japanese car owner study that showed these people don't report all the problems on questionnaires, and yes some dealers are convincing disgruntled customers that these problems are normal. Yes I have known of these people with one friend claiming that he never had to pay for any work on his car only to find out that the warranty covered his clutch repairs. So yes, people are not telling the truth, and some foreign owners are embarrassed when things go wrong, and hate to admit it.
"I wished I had saved the study." So we have no links to the so-called "study," just Poncho's memory. There was some nonsense originally posted on allpar.com purporting to show (more like speculate) on how Japanese car owners are "different" along the lines that Honda drivers keep their garages cleaner. The gist was that these alleged differences caused all sorts of biases in the Consumer Reports reliability surveys.
"...some dealers are convincing disgruntled customers that these problems are normal" And you're telling me that this is limited to dealers of Japanese makes? That's one of the oldest lines in the book.
"Yes I have known of these people with one friend claiming..." Real convincing here -- who are these people and what problems did they supposedly have? The only one he cites had a clutch problem that was repaired under warranty. Is that so bad? If the warranty covers a major repair, isn't that fine since it apparently was done with no hassle (and by definition with no cost outlay on the part of the owner)?
"So yes, people are not telling the truth, and some foreign owners are embarrassed when things go wrong, and hate to admit it." Show me the evidence; if you look right here on Edmunds, owners of any make and model aren't shy about reporting their problems, whether real or much ado about nothing.
Oh I forgot, they'll gripe on Edmunds but not report them (anonymously) to Consumer Reports or old JD!
The fact of the matter is that many, many Americans have risked their lives and even died defending this freedom (and many other freedoms).
The fact of the matter is that Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai are all gaining market share in the US and are building plants here, hiring American workers, and are pumping money into the US economy. People can argue about short term or long haul, or whatever they want, but I like to stick to reality. For example:
New Honda Plant
I, personally, think competition is a good thing and giving consumers choice is a good thing. GM has the money, technology, resources and people to make innovative vehicles that will have high demand. They just need to execute. If they build a better car than Toyota, Honda, and others, people will buy their vehicles again.
If you want to flame each other, you'll have to find someplace else to play. That kind of behavior is not acceptable here.
THAT really makes me want a GM car - so I can pay for the employees who don't work!
Heck, I drive an '85 Silverado. And I'll be the first to admit that I like watermelon, greens, and greasy fried food, and I watch "Mama's Family" reruns. And until just recently, I even had a refrigerator out on the porch! :P
But I don't think I could ever kill anything unless it was trying to break into the house or rob me or something along those lines. :shades:
Ordinary trucks lack all of the above, and usually have a vanity plate on the back that says something like "Docstrk".
Then, they turn it around and say the consumer is not patriotic because they buy the superior product which can be produced at a lower price.
The most expensive component in a GM car is $1500 in health benefits to the worker. If that $1500 is put into the actual building of the car, you would get a lot more car for the money!
I would prefer to buy American/Canadian any time, if the product is at least equal to to the foreign competition.
I think I spotted Rocky driving a Honda Civic in Austin TX.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Where did you come up with your figures -- if true, that means GM is only half as productive as Toyota and Honda. :confuse: Or maybe that's why GM is losing money hand-over-fist and Toyota and Honda are raking in the profits?
BTW, Toyota is about to pass GM this year as the largest manufacturer and seller of cars worldwide.
Does not mean they are gods gift to the Automobile. There are ALOT better choices out there than a comparable GM product IMO. Oh crap, I just exercised my "freedom of choice" right as an American.
Back to your regularly scheduled dictatorship...
-Loren
P.S. Have we called in a missing poster report on Rocky yet?
Was Rocky seen in a Honda an erroneous sighting?
Will OnStar find him?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Is that why they're supplying the Equinox engine from China?
What company it is really doesn't matter - that it's in the U.S. is. Canada or Mexico isn't doing a darn thing for our economy anymore than Korea or Japan.
Honda wants to build another U.S. plant and employ a few thousand more employees. GM - laying people off.
The 3.4 engine built in China is temporary until the Equinox/Torrent replacements are ready.
Rocky
I've tried to keep up with the forums and thank you for noticing I was gone.
Loren, I really am liking the new Saturn Aura, and what it means to General Motors. The Opel styling is really helping out the Saturn brand. My friends and family really like it alot and my mom asked about it last night. I told her that perhaps she should consider a Aura when her lease is up on the G6. I told her by then the Aura should have a "develish" redline version out.
Rocky
$3 GASOLINE: REALITY SETS IN
Four-bangers get a big boost
If you thought you felt the earth shift a bit during the middle of April, it wasn't your imagination: That's when U.S. vehicle buyers began a startling move toward four-cylinder vehicles and away from V-8s. A combination of high fuel prices and a flood of new four-cylinder vehicles has moved the needle toward smaller engines. story http://www.autonews.com
Do you think those 4-cylinders will be turbocharged to keep performance up while maintaining good mpg ? I do agree that the return of the 4-Cylinder is coming back. Lotus Esprit type engines will be featured in Corvette's :surprise: Well maybe I shouldn't go that far. OTOH I do think the buying public will look torwards 4-Cylinder Turbo engines to move there High Performance Sedans like the Mazdaspeed or the Subaru Legacy Spec B. these 2 car company's are ahead of the curve. They make nice cars that offer good fuel economy while giving the consumer a great all around all-season vehicle. I'd love to see GM build a car like the Legacy, with Acura/Lexus fit and finish.
Rocky