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I am only guessing, but the Uplander and Montana are pretty new and might not have been out for a full year in 05, or the price dropped so they could get some sold.
The Odyssey is probably below the Sienna and they didn't go lower on the list. I think when they say Dodge Caravan that includes all versions.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Old factories are cost prohibitive to run. Doraville and the Atlanta Taurus factories are too old to operate and not laid out in a way that would make retrofitting affordable.
GM has recently made new factories and rehabbed others for production in the US and Mexico, from which it makes competitive product. GM also bought the brand spanking new Daewoo facilities in South Korea for a song. GM DAT is taking market share from Hyun-Kia in both South Korea and other Asian nations using the facilities.
In the meantime, HyunKia is paying top dollar to make new facilities that may or may not pay off for it. If they do not pay off, then perhaps HyunKias management can bribe their stake holders or something.
I remember the Voyager, never understood why that name was kept since, especially it became a Chrysler. Didn't really think they needed a short wheelbase Chrysler in the first place. People that want that could have go to Dodge.(I mean the money goes to the same place does it not?)
You have to wonder if it is worth a model selling 4,000 units in a third of the year, or 12,000 units a year and some are lower than that.
I think a good start for GM would be to make all the models resemble the Cadillac. Impala's, Malibus, Cobalts would be variations in size and price, but be based on that design. Then buy some engines from Honda or Toyota.
Might have to tweak the factories so there is better quality or use the Buick assembly lines which are pretty good for quality. Probably a 5 year bumper to bumper or about 80,000 mile warranty would bolster the whole image thing.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
GM has even closed the reliability (but not the perception) gap.
IMHO, GM needs to fix the fit and finish and features (I can get an ipod jack w/ a Yaris but not a XLR!!!) of their cars.
If you say GM should get its fit and finish or electronics from Toyota/Honda and suspensions and styling from BMW then I would agree wholeheartedly! :P
At least you didn't suggest GM source it's A/C parts from Honda. I would hate to use one of those during a TX summer!
I dunno about GM, but Honda and Chrysler both use the same a/c components. I've never had any complaints about the a/c system in my '00 Intrepid.
I dunno how their latest offerings are, but in the past A/C systems were one thing GM tended to do very well.
How old is your friend? 18? Are his parents rich, or does he have a highly successful pharmaceutical business?
Why do Aisans now speak with African American Street Accents?
Does he know it's actually a 2007? Or is he just playin' wid us?
And they say we're in a "struggling economy"....... :sick:
Overview: The Impala was introduced for 2000 as Chevrolet's flagship sedan, reviving a name that once graced a much larger, rear-drive car. It is a family sedan that essentially replaced the Lumina. In tests, we found its performance to be just average overall. The Impala's ride and handling are sound. And while its V6 gets the job done, it isn't as smooth or refined as the V6s found in the Honda Accord, Nissan Maxima, or Toyota Camry.i>
And though Chevy has a very good V8, I doubt if very many consumers will be buying them these days, unless they don't care about the price of gas.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
We have been spoiled with low gas prices. In Europe gas is about $8 a gallon. Look at the cars they drive...the Vibe is actually an avaerage sized car.
I remember my Dad buying gas for his 1957 Ford and gas was 30 cents a gallon. At $3 a gallon today, that is only 10 times what it was. An ice cream cone has gone from 5 cents to $1.50 much bigger difference (of course we only had 3 flavors then).
Going back a few messages there...Chevy having great V8's. They do, but in this day and age there only real use should be in a police cruiser. 6's have become so refined now, they should be the maximum number of cylinders for the general public.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
While I agree, 6 cylinder can offer great performance in a car or midsize SUV, I don't want one in my Suburban. Oh, I guess big SUVs should be banned from existance too.
More like Vibe/Matrix production was always slated 3/4 Matrix, 1/4 Vibe.
Vibe sales are slower this year than last, as I expect Matrix sales are. Toyota reports Matrix under Corolla, so it is difficult to know how well the Matrix is soing.
I expect both cars' sales are down. This is a vehicle in its 5th year with little more than cosmetic changes in or out.
Be thankful that some things HAVEN'T gone up 10 times since 1957! My grandparents bought a new Ford in 1957, a well-equipped Fairlane 500 4-door hardtop. As equipped, it ended up MSRP'ing for around $3500! So if car prices went up 10 times today, a new Ford sedan would be MSRP'ing for around $35,000. And not have air conditioning, ABS, power windows/locks/etc.
But then on the flip side, my grandparents sold a small house in 1958 for $5800, and the house two door down from me sold for about $13,000 in 1958. But try and see what 10X that will buy you today. $58K might get you a quarter acre lot that needs to be cleared. $130K might get you enough of a downpayment on one of the local McMansions to eliminate the mortgage insurance.
For a company that has been buiding cars for 100 years, they can't make a 4 cylinder engine that gets 40 mpg or a V-6 that produces around 300HP. In many GM needs V8s to offer same level of perfromance Asian counterparts with V6s.
Needs, or is GM simply using engineering to make what the market prefers?
A Corvette with a super V6 would not get nearly the sales as small block.
All luxury makes save Acura and all the successful trucks use V8s. It is what the market wants.
Look at this: http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/HPT%20Library/HFV6/2006_36- L_LY7_CTS.pdf
The new 3.5L Toyota V6 in the Camry and Rav4 is an amazing engine (268HP and both vehicles get tremendous fuel economy). Comparing the 3.5L V6's in the Camry to that of the new Impala, there is no competition (268HP/248 lb-ft torque to 211HP/214 lb-ft) while at the same time the Camry gets slightly better fuel economy. Even if you step up to the LTZ Impala (3.9L with 242HP/242 lb-ft) it is not that close (while at the same time sacrificing fuel economy).
Why should Honda/Toyota put a V8 in a vehicle when their V6's provide more than adequate power (close to 270HP), performance, and fuel economy?
As a previous poster mentioned, to me, this does not even address the bigger issues facing GM (styling, fit and finish)..
That doesn't even make sense. It's nice to quip some mantra about OHC vs OHV and 6 cyl vs 8 cyl. But the reality
is that a 6 cylinder can have MORE than adequate torque for a full-sized car. I submit the 3800 and a leSabre or Lucerne as example.
If you, personally, want a car capable of squealing the tires and want a car you drive at 5000 rpm in normal take offs, then that is fine with me. But don't act as if any other motor is completely inadequate, especially if you don't understand the role that torque plays in MOST people's driving rather than horsepower at 5000 rpm.
It is odd that GM presents the torque and horsepower rating graphs on the web while sls can't find them for the OHC type motors.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yes, as long as I own a boat to tow, I will own an SUV to tow it. That's the only reason I have an SUV. I currently spend about $100 a month in gas in my Suburban for routine driving (errands). Obviously, boating trips add to that, but that is discretionary and still provides a relatively inexpensive way to entertain my family and friends for a day or weekend.
I just wish I could get a diesel Suburban or Expedition.
Again, the market for these kind of cars - as well as ultra-luxe, SUVs and trucks wants a V8. No matter what you do to a V6, the people buying want a V8.
How about a nice 6cyl turbo diesel:)
True enough.
Though as good as the diesel truck options offered by Ford and GM, you still have most people going for the V8s.
I don't have the numbers to support it, but it seems to me a majority of 3/4 & 1 ton P/Us sell with diesel power, particularly with Dodge and Ford and now that GM has dropped the 8.1 I don't think the heavy haulers will be happy with a 6.0/6.2L and the Duramax will probably be even more popular.
To bad the diesel options add about $5-6k, that's a lot for many to swallow.
If GM put out a sub 300HP V6 luxury SUV that got 18/28mpg, people would buy them...
It doesn't matter anyway though. As much as I like the Corvette and Cadillac line of vehicles, this is not enough alone to save GM. And if gas prices ever hit $6-8 a gallon (which is very possible in the next few years if you consider a war with Iran, and inflation), then we are all going to be considering a Yaris, Fit, and Aveo
No.
The large GM diesels are head and heels over the Toy.
The current Tundra is smaller and lighter than the full size GM trucks. It may get a modest advantage on fuel economy over a gasoline V8, but then loses tremendously on practical matters - as the market preference for the big 3 pick ups shows.
No doubt, if I was commuting 400 miles a week, I'd be looking for a different daily driver. As much for driving enjoyment as fuel efficiency.
Since I usualy don't put more than 100 miles on the Suburban during the week, I can't justify buying an extra car to save $50 a month in gas.
My neighbor has a 3/4 ton Dodge with a hemi (don't know why he didn't get a diesel), he's spending nearly $200/wk in gas. I know he gets mileage money from work, but it still has to hurt.
Not a bad idea! (Just joking). In the land of freedom and liberty you are allowed to drive what you like...as long as you are willing to pay for it.
I know there are people who need Suburbans and Expeditions, but it is time to try to cut back a bit. If gas prices are around $4 will you buy another Suburban next time around? The largest car you see in Europe is the occasional Jeep and of course Rovers. This is where engineering makes a difference. Depending on brute strength, building big heavy vehicles that need 8 cylinders is not leading edge technology.
At $8 a gallon, it is definitely time to find an alternative way to get around. I am not critisizing large vehicle owners, we didn't see this coming, but if your next car gets 20% better fuel economy, it could make a difference, in the cost of gas, and in having enough supplies, and on not depending on unfriendly sources to obtain it.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The 2.4 takes it even further.
The I4 in the Colorado/Canyon is probably the best 4 cyl. for a pick up. The I5, is not so hot.
Since I'm not in the market for a 4cyl car and when I rent I get large cars (need room), so I don't get much opportunity to drive the current batch of 4cyl cars.
This is an honest question, why do I keep reading the Ecotec in 2.2 and 2.4L form is buzzy at high rpm when compared to a Honda or Mazda in nearly every media outlet?
Now I have read good things about the 4cyl in the Colorado. To bad GM dropped the ball with 3.5 I5. I know the 4.2 won't fit, but that was poor planning IMO.
Frankly, I think the problem is not the engine, but the insulation GM has been using. The new quiet metal and insulation in the ION and Cobalt shield the driver from engine noise to the point where you do not notice it. In other GM cars without the insulating features, the engine is more noticeable.
The ecotecs have a lower torque curve without the same high end as, at least some of the Toy and Hon fours - not so sure about Hyundai and Nissan. If you rev the ecotec at levels comparable to ToyHon, then it will grumble. But at the same time, ToyHons need to go far higher in the rev band - thus defeating their frugal features - in stop and go traffic.
To bad GM dropped the ball with 3.5 I5. I know the 4.2 won't fit, but that was poor planning IMO
I won't argue there. I have never liked 5 Cylinders. The difference between the Colorado 4 and 5 is very noticeable.
This time he bought the top Toyota 4-door truck. I couldn't believe it. He loves the new truck and says there is no comparison with the GM's.
Wouldn't a Toyota V8 be a more efficient, with better gas mileage?
Another point dieselone - is that if you figure you are spending $100 a month in gas, that isn't too bad. If gas goes up 50% it is not too bad to spend $150, if you look at it that way. But, some people are spending $100 bucks a week...and that could hurt!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
-Loren
If I wanted a large smooth highway cruiser, yes. But then I understand it is not the top hp, but where the hp is reached on the rpm curve that matters in most driving situations.
Urban myth.
Comparing the ecotec 2.4 in the G6, with the Honda 2.4 in the Accord and the Toyota 2.4 in the Camry yields the following:
Torque:
162 @ 4500 (G6)
160 @ 4000 (Accord)
161 @ 4000 (Camry)
Hmmm, torque peaks are LOWER on the Toy/Honda motors. And given their VVT engines, I would imagine that the torque curves would also be flatter. And the HP peak is HIGHER on the G6 (@ 6300) than in either the Accord (@5800) or the Camry (@ 6000).
The 2.4 is a newer engine. It is also VVT.
I would be surprised if the ToyHon were not flatter but have never seen a full comparo.
Considering how heavily GM leans on the reputation and characteristics of the Chevy small-block and its descendents, they really missed the boat with the VVT 3.5 and 3.9 V6s. They should have scaled down the LS2 and made a pair of miniature (3.5 and 4-liter) V8s instead. Oh well, GM will pay the price for its lack of vision.
Car and Driver emphasized the fun factor in the Miata. But C&D also pointed out the fun factor can equate in being over nervous. This creates problems both where the driver is pushing the car to the limit and on longer trips.
What C&D was really getting at is the two cars do different things. Meaning the buyer had meaningful choice.
I have had two Miatas since 1994. The nervousness while fun at the time is no longer what I want. When I had the Miata, I used it mainly as a commuter. The quirky nervousness in the Miata was my way of getting fun in during an otherwise boring routine.
Now I commute on mass transit. If I had a Roadster, it would be for longer occasional trips. The more sure footed ride of the Solstice/Sky would make a real difference on these rides.
Now maybe I still want the quirky nervousness. Great. The Miata is there. But if I want the sure ride, it is equally great the Solstice/Sky is there.
Too many posters here think there should only be one standard for a class of car. I think there should be a choice. GM and Mazda have different takes on the Roadster. It does not mean one is better and one is worse. It means they are different. To mean that is a win all around.
To people with agendas ...
200 HP between 5100-6000 RPM
207 ft. lbs torque between 1800-5000 RPM
and it's all in a 4-cylinder engine, no less.
:shades:
Thanks.
Dave
David
link title
They really like the Solstice (couldn't they find an easier name to spell) but in the final analysis....the Miata was the clear winner....
But the biggest reason the Miata took this one is the simple fact that it's 10 billion times more fun to drive. It's more responsive. Its engine is livelier and its gearbox feels like it was plucked from a shifter kart. It also has more steering feel, and it stops better.
The Pontiac, although fast, just doesn't offer the same connection to the machine. It feels distant, more like a boulevard star than a true two-seat sports car.
And that sums up the whole situation...even when GM comes out with something brilliant!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
But I agree, there should be a 6-cyl option (used to be able to get a 4.3 Vortec V6). I'm STILL scratching my head as to why GM won't offer the 4.2L I6 in these vehicles :confuse:
Similarly, take Cadillac. When Cadillac moved to the FWD mantra across the board, many people felt as though they abandoned the high-luxury market. Why? It didn't offer a V8-RWD platform, what the market considers a requirement. I mean, the ETC, STS were ok pieces, decent Northstars, but they weren't RWD. I mean I'm sure people didn't buy Caddys for many reasons, but one of the main ones was being FWD - just couldn't compete.
If GM put out a sub 300HP V6 luxury SUV that got 18/28mpg, people would buy them...
Isn't this what the V6/V8? Caddy SUV (the Trailblazer clone) is for? I don't see many of these around so can't tell if they are meeting expectations or not :confuse: