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and I didn't realize that your comment about my GM "groundbreaking" comment was intended to create a dialogue between us. I see these posts as more for general consumption than for back and forth between two players. Besides, the groundbreaking "thread" didn't really "need" me. At least three of you folks had a go at that issue.
I think it is great for cars to be "groundbreaking," and I'm not saying GM should be complacent. But I just think it is hypocritical to criticize GM for not being groundbreaking when not holding the competition to the same standard. That's all.
what's so groundbreaking about the Camry?
the Accord?
the Civic?
Do we really want GM to do what Toyota does? UGH. Talk about a lack of choices.
If we had REAL reliability numbers, we could do a decent comparo b/t GM and Toyota, etc. But we don't. JD Powers. Worthless data. Edmunds TCO? You get what you pay for.
Maybe KBB is a useful number, but since you can't know depreciation without knowing actual sales price, you don't really know how bad a car is. So we end up debating how many recalls a car has had, and whether it is good or bad that there's been a recall, etc. etc.
Is that really what drives any of us to buy a car? If so, then NONE of us should be buying NEW. Period. Terrible financial decision. You're WAY smarter (purely financial perspective) buying a USED Impala than a new Camry. No brainer.
Buying a car is NOT a financial analysis. Buy what you can afford, and what you like to drive. If cost is that big an issue when comparing the new X versus the new Y, then you really should be buying USED and not looking at new cars, in the first place. We shouldn't pretend we are these brilliant financial analysts because we bought a new Camry over a new Impala. The guy who bought the used Impala (or Camry) is smarter (financially) than the both of you!!
:-)
Midsize Car: 1998-2003 Toyota Camry
2003 Toyota Camry Fine build quality, legendary reliability and a hushed ride characterize the Camry. Though the arch rival Honda Accord may offer a more sporting drive, we picked the Camry based on its more serene cabin and compliant ride, qualities that are typically more appreciated in a family midsize car than apex-strafing ability. The Camry was redesigned in 1997 and this generation lasted through the 2001 model year, meaning all of these years are equally strong picks. An all-new Camry bowed for 2002, offering even more refinement and better driving dynamics.
Couldn't find the Impala mentioned for reliability anywhere. I did find this interesting summary of the new Impala:
Chevrolet Impala
Significant changes for 2006 bring the Impala a few steps closer to class leaders in terms of power, features and refinement, but the car's aging platform is still a liability against competitors like the Chrysler 300 and Honda Accord.
Interesting...like to see where Impala is picked as most reliable or a "Best Bet"
For more, go to:link title
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
CR can't evaluate GM cars when that occurs. They have to wait!....
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Resale value is an indicator of reliability, desirability, and probably the concept of styling (meaning that a better design will hold up and still look good in 10 years for example - good design could be a 57 Chev, any Jaguar, almost any Mercedes, IMO it might not include an Aztec, Concordes are a little much, some T-V guys chose Roadmasters with the vinyl roof and spoke wheels as the worst car in that particular year?).
I am not suggesting that you purchase a car only based on it's resale value, but the resale value tells you a lot about what that car is really worth - see what a Hyundai Pony is worth today.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Go to this site and pick whatever vehicle you want. Unfortunately they no longer lists 3 year reliability(at least I could not find it). The 2002 Impala did better than the 2002 Camry. the segment winner was the Century and Impala was close behind.
http://www.jdpower.com/special/powerreport/gm05/GM_SPR.pdf
Actually I think dependibility is there in star ratings but it is not clear what year it represents. Obviously a 2006 vehicle could not have 3 year data so they must be using data from an older model. Regardless, I used to have all the actual vehicle data.
Why is JD Power suspect?
...the gruesome pig-nosed styling.
...seeing the same car as yours everywhere.
...selling your country and its workers down the toilet.
...and certainly not worth tolerating the arrogant, shark-like dealers who act as if they're doing you a big favor selling you a Toyota.
Heck, it will be nice to have a Buick if it's a rare as an Aston Martin or Maserati. I always prided myself on doing the opposite of what all the sheeple are doing.
Check out:
http://hallmarkautomotivegroup.com/usatoday_april04.shtmllink">
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Don't you realize that the new Camry is buck-toothed, not 'pig-nosed'?
:P
What do mean by required service levels by the dealer?
Resale is normally better. It is possible that an engine, or other major component of the car is troublesome and the car suffers in resale. History tells the story though for probability. That most likely scenario would indicate higher resale values down the road in a Toyota vehicle.
If you like the style, price, ride and such of a Camry, then go for it. There is no one car which fits all. I personally do not care to much for the front end, though the back end is attractive enough. Pretty nice interior. Camry is not noted for being too sporty to drive, though it is a not bad on cornering, as in safe enough. It is sort of like the modern day Oldsmobile. The peoples car for nice ride, and durability. Kinda like 1970 RWD Olds. days, when they lead the way for reliable, sensible, safe family cars.
As far as an investment, let's say more like an expense which when bought new is less than the Impala, but bought used is more than the Impala. Buy Japan new, and domestic used, if expense is your guide. For investment, it could be perhaps a muscle car or a Vette or something, but never the Camry. Camry is a nice appliance for your family. Come to think of it, most cars are like toasters or ovens. Where are the 442 Olds. of today. The GTO Holden looks a bit bland. The Mustang looks OK, but that is a lift of a design so long ago. Maybe the CTS stands out? Humm, now ya got me thinking. I think that is one reason I did a double take the first sight of the Tiburon. I owned a Dodge Stealth at one time. Got the first one sold in a nearby city.
Now that is special looking.
-Loren
The LaCrosse is not a bad style. A little Jag, a bit of Taurus, and some old Buick thrown in for good measure. Pleasing enough. Never test driven one to see if it handles like a retro Buick.
The Lucerne looks like a bit larger Altima, a little retro Camry perhaps, port holes - rectangles, or whatever they are for old times sake, wrapped around an aging Deville platform. Not a bad value used. Pleasant to look at, but nothing outstanding. Pretty fair, IMHO. The last wow car from Buick was the last of the Riv's.
The new freshen up on the Impala took away any distinction of Chevy vs. the rest, styling wise, but it actually looks better. Kinda a mixed feeling on this one. Looks improved, yet it now looks like a giant Japan model. But it looks better.
For some reason I always see it as a businessman's car, family rental car, then as a family personal car, and all the rest of categories far away down the list.
-Loren
Haven't visited this board in a while. I can see I haven't missed much, same old, same old.
He's still peddling the myth that Toyota (and Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai) dealers "soak" the consumer more for unneeded services like fuel injector cleaning, tranny flushes, premature spark plug changes, etc. compared to your typical Big 2.5 dealer.
But no hard evidence has ever been presented.
Hard to believe there'd be that much of a difference, given that in most metro areas, a few large dealership chains run import and domestic stores, carrying multiple brands. Even in my relatively small burg, we have Brown, Colonial, and Price carrying most of the makes, and all 3 have domestic and import franchises. The days of the small, family-owned dealership carrying one make are numbered.
And believe me, one of the above 3 dealers (who shall go unnamed) will rip you off whether you have a Chrysler, Dodge, Toyota, Subaru, Honda, Saab, or Mercedes! I know many locals who refuse to buy or service these makes in my town, but rather will do business with dealers in neighboring towns -- 30 or 40 miles away.
trunk cargo net
Dual HVAC
Lighted vanity mirrors
rear reading lamps
floor mats
leather shift knob
compass
traction control
foglights
OnStar
Wow man, these are real "gotta have" features! The cargo net and floor mats can always be purchased as accessories, or if you're really cheap, in the aftermarket.
Dual a/c: yeah, that would be nice, but you can get it in the uplevel Camry XLE.
Traction control: not really needed in an FWD car; where's the stability control that's at least optional in the Camry?
Foglights are mainly for showing off in our neck of the woods, where we don't get much real fog. The compass can be nice if you're truly lost, but not a deal breaker. OnStar: you gotta pay for it after the first year. I'd rather pay for sat radio.
Lighted vanity mirrors, rear reading lamps, and leather shift knob: Well, I don't wear makeup or sit in the back seat. And with an auto tranny, how often are you going to touch that leather shifter anyway? :P
I took a look around the net, and this shows a 5 door Opel Astra(next "ION?"). :mad:
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/new-cars/
about 1/2 way down the page is the news article/photo.
Why build another 5 door?
everyone has one. Make Saturn stand out more? Make a 3 door.
This is why we are "forced" towards Scion(tC, very nice car), or maybe a few others that have 3 door hatches.
We like hatches, but not "wagons".
Just a personal preference.
Reminds us of the late 60's and 1970's station wagons(they may call them sport wagons, or whatever...but they are just redesigned station wagons, to us, anyways, at our homestead, no matter what company makes them).
I guess we can hope for a 3 door. :confuse:
- Toyota reputation for reliability
- Engine refinement
- Interior quality
- Fit and finish
These items might be worth the price difference alone, forget the feature differences.
Did you not read the earlier message that talked about the fact that to win buyers *back* to GM, it will take more than cars being equal or slightly better than Toyota/Honda? GM needs to be groundbreaking to achieve that. Being as good as a Camry won't be enough, given the poor reputation built over 30 years.
In 1996 Audi was just about dead in the U.S. market. Out of nowhere came the A4. And it was groundbreaking. It was what turned the company around. GM needs such hits.
All reports or advetising sent out to the public must be approved (PAID FOR!) by Power. The report posted was put together by GM so of course they have GM all over it.
As far as making statistics say what you want that is always true. BUT I do not know how much more clear that chart is. (chart was based on initial quality only, they did not list 3 year reliability).
As far as GM being below Toyota, GM has some stinkers in quality. they are primarily old models that have not been redone recently. The Trucks are the largest bane for quality at GM. The old models jsut pulled down the overall GM score. Unfortunatly the new SUV's will not have been out in time for the coming June scoring results. However there is a new questionaire and everyone is on pns and needles on how it shakes out.
Chrysler came back from the brink with the K-Car, Mazda with the MPG, VW with a new Beetle, Hyundai with tremendous value, Nissan with the new Altima's and Maximas. Chrysler is getting a second wind with Calibre, 300's and new smaller Jeeps and Ford is making a good attempt with the Fusion.
GM could still make a big comeback, but it better be something special, and it has to be in the mid-range sector. Lucernes, Impalas, G6's, while competent just are not "groundbreaking."
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
What I am saying is that their numbers can be massaged to say something not really intended. I don't have the time to analyze the GM advertising that has used the figures to their advantage. For example, it sounds like these figures are talking about initial problems, however, the serious problems that you actually end up paying for happen 3, 4 or 5 years down the road which is where Toyota quality really makes a difference. (Actually, it sounds like GM took a Powers survey and made it into an internal GM memo talking about which of their plants makes better cars, and I believe the best put together car is a Buick).
If GM and Impalas are better in dependability than Toyota than millions of Americans are buying their Camry's thinking they are more dependable, and GM has not been getting the word out. I have a friend who just bought a 2002 Honda....he researched and wanted the most dependable car possible (very limited budget), and it had to be a Toyota or Honda. Maybe I should have told him Impala was more dependable!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
- Toyota reputation for reliability
- Engine refinement
- Interior quality
- Fit and finish
These items might be worth the price difference alone, forget the feature differences.
They are worth the price difference. I owned a 2000 Camry Solera SLE V6 bought new. Typical Toyota: superior fit and finish, beautiful interior, reliable. Alas, I got into a serious accident with it ( no one was hurt bad) and I had to rent a car for a week. This was in Nov 2002. The rental car was a 2001 Chevy Impala. What a noisy, unrefined, plasticky unimpressive car. I don't think Impalas are that cheap and they aren't; anywhere near Toyotas class. Some may want to say the new Impala is better. Ok, and so are the new Toyotas.
BTW, in another thread I wrote that there is no GM that has as good an interior as an Acura TL. I'm going to now say there is no GM at any price save maybe a 75,000 Cadillac XLR that has an interior that can match a 2006 Honda Accord. GM interiors are for the most part, pathetic.
I'm 33 and used to get car magazine subscriptions in the late 80's. I read them now plus a lot online. I've been reading for almost 20 years how American cars are "getting better" and may one day be as good as Japanese cars. American cars have improved, but so have the Japanese cars. A new Impala has as nice an interior as my 1991 Camry. Unfortunately for GM this is 2006 and not 1991.
GM either can't or won't manufacture car interiors that are up to the Accord/Camry level. The G6 interior plastic looks like it belongs on my Xbox 360.
Bingo! You nailed that one. The initial quality study will catch the little annoyances like squeaks, rattles, cupholder design, etc. My 1990 Mercury Sable would have ranked quite well.
Four years and 64K miles down the road, all the serious problems started in earnest (conveniently after the warranty was over).
Also, having had a the same car for 21 years (1980 Volvo 240), I can honestly say that 90 days means squat!
As for the current models, it's hard to compare just based on specs. I'd have to drive them to see which I liked better.
But, I was driving along the highway this morning and a new 2007 Camry was next to me......did that thing ever look ugly! I think the photos soften all the curves and angles, but when you see it in real life, IMHO it is not a pretty sight. If I was in the market I'd have to look for a 2006 or go to a Honda.
I also saw one of those big Buicks that looks like it is trying to copy a Jaguar's looks but of course misses all the major styling cues. He was trying to get into traffic and was slowing down on the on ramp, and of course he was too old to turn his head to see if he could speed up a little and blend in..........
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Now back to reality. Taking them on their word that Chevy is #1, what does this say about the destiny of the big two?
Is all well now at GM, since they are reporting actually making a profit. What ultimately happens with Delphi? Would American buy GM cars made with a large content of China made parts? Are they planning to that? Seems the V6 engine made there was considered no big deal by buyers, so perhaps it does work. Big money is betting on a comeback for Mr. Big = GM. If one could only see the future. Does it mean we have national health care coming? Does it mean GM becomes a huge China player selling a building there? What does that mean for US jobs? Do you believe people are simply buying more GM product in the USA this year? The added sales are not fleet rentals? And if so, why are people buying GM. What would say is the motivation to buy GM, or Ford?
When someone says number one brand in regard to US cars, the Cadillac comes to mind. If someone said which car is the best value in US brands, a used car comes to mind, or maybe a Mustang if you get $3K off on one. When they talk numbers, I think of fleet. Recall the days when Taurus topped the Camry. Yeah, right! :shades: -Loren
Anyone can say they are #1. It means nothing...could mean #1 loser, #1 most complaints, #1 in falling sales.
The way I understand it, they can even say they are "The Best". Saying you are "best" is just a judgment call and is just an opinion.
Now, if they say the are "better" than someone else, they have to start proving it.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Please reread the report. Throughout it also reports on 3 year dependability. Lexus was 137 pph, Buick 163 and Cadillac 175 with a industry average of 237. Toyota is below Cadillac at 194. Chevrolet is at 232.
http://www.jdpower.com/presspass/pr/images/2005089a.gif
The report also lists these vehicles as #1 in dependibility; Malibu, S-10, Prizm, Century, LeSabre, Yukon, Sierra HD, Silverado HD, Escalade EXT.
The Camry was beat out by Century, Grand Prix, Impala and others.
Base LaCrosse handles slightly better than the old Camry LE with about the same ride and impact characteristics. CXS turns up the handling a bit with a subsequent loss in impact harshness. No idea how the new Camry does.
Here is the report for 2004.
Here Camry is still in the top 3 in its segment. After that it dropos out.
1. System runs on information. That's the bedrock of the capitalistic system, that information will sooner or later correct any flaws, misallignment, biases present in the marketplace.
An example was the internet bubble. Many people thought the sky was the limit and there were many speculators interested in maintaining the bubble. But the market forces were relentless in puncturing that bubble.
An auto example was German vs Japan luxury cars. When Lexus came out, nobody thought it was anywhere near the level of BMW and MB, and its cars were priced much lower. But the market corrected that, in a short very few years, and now its cars are priced at the level of its German competitors.
2. Market misalignments can sometimes exist, because of faulty information. But today in the auto world, there are tons of information, from newspapers, magazines, internet blogs, TV's, what have you, it's hard to believe any market misinformation or misalignment can last long.
Importantly nobody has a monopoly on information. So Nippon 3 (ToyHon + Nissan) can't buy all the coverage to talk up their products. The marketplace is just too large and diversified for anyone to own.
3. If big 3 think there's a misconception about Japanese auto, it's their highest priority to get the information out and burst the Japanese bubble. Their careers and livelihood depend on it.
If the big 3 can't do that after many decades of taking on the chin, either they're incredibly dumb, or there's no bubble to be burst.
Let's see the Malibu (cringe when I see the name used on this car), Prizm (rebadged Corolla, with less resale value), Century (a rental car, no longer for sale), LeSabre (deluxe, but aging, and now gone to pasture), Grad Prix (they still sell those!), the Impala (there is some hope - good basic transporter). Strange that the Silverado is on the list. I hear of electrical and transmission problems on GM trucks from owners, and see them towed more than other vehicles. Must be a local area thing.
Good to see such improvement in reliability. Maybe they can close the plants which are lagging. Now we need to see some excitement, as in new cars. Oh yeah, with the reliability of the old worked over cars.
If it seems like people are hard to impress, with seemingly good new data, it is due a painful experience, or two, or three with a certain brand in their past. It takes more to win those people back. Longer warranty, good discount (sort of an " I am sorry I hurt you before " rebate :P and consistent performance, style, reliability, and improved quality of finish, to win them back.
The Three Strikes Law, took a bite out of crime in California. The three strikes of cars which failed, took a bite out of GM.
This is the reality. It has absolutely nothing to do with a car made today or two years back, but has everything to do with winning back the customer that gave up last decade. I am very sure that there are people that loved GM cars, such as the '68 Malibu and Camaro back when, yet feel let down with the cars made between '75 and 2002. The new Malibu just is not something to be as proud of as the glory years. Why bother to use an old name when it is not consistent with it being a beauty of a style? Why bother with Japan looking cars, when you can buy a Japan or Korean car?
America waits.
An American Revolution? ..... America waits.
Solstice is a great styling effort. The Buicks a fair effort. The CTS showed it can be done, though the car is overpriced with the base engine and lack of telescopic steering column, and lumbar support to seats. Do they have stabilitrac standard? Anyway, the interior and features list is longer on a $20K Sonata than it is on the CTS. Anyway, the SKY and a couple cars look like a spark here and there, so their could be some fire soon???
-Loren
Consumer Reports shows the Chevy S10 as just fine, back in 2005 magazine, and not so good, for the same years, in the 2006 magazine. This is all too confusing. And at a certain point people will go with the gut feeling. That is one based on past experience. And we all know how that will go.
-Loren
.
Lucernes and Impalas are OK workhorses. I prefer the Impala, it is a little cleaner looking, not trying to look like something it isn't. The price is amazing for that much car. The problem is the engineering is not exactly cutting edge, and there is absolutely no sense of fun in driving one (I have driven a rental). The steering is vague, the cornering ability is from last century, I had a Hertz bench seat model with absolutely no support, and I am still looking for the JD Powers survey that says it is more dependable than a Camry.
RE: 2007 CAMRY: I don't know why designers ugly up designs. I had a 1995 Jeep Cherokee Ltd., and each change got uglier so I stopped buying them. Got a 2000 Cherokee because it was still square with great vision then they replaced it with a Liberty??? Mercedes just got ugly with the B class and R (I think)Class, that look like buses, and that Maybach thing that looks like someone sat on the roof and crushed it in. The last Accord was not as nice as the previous one, and Neons keep getting distorted all out of proportion.
I think the Sonata is looking better all the time.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
With very few exceptions, any car that I get behind the wheel of is going to have its front seat pushed back as far as it will go. I'm 6'3", with something like a 34-35" inseam, and like a stretched-out driving position.
I'm comfortable in the front seat of the Camry and the Impala, but in both cases I'd have their seats all the way back. In the Camry's case, I could still sit in the back seat. But in the Impala I couldn't. About the closest thing I could equate the Impala's back seat to is my '76 LeMans coupe, except that in the LeMans my head doesn't hit the rear window!
When Consumer Reports does their measurements, I know they do one where they put the front seat to where it's at 40" of legroom, and then measure the distance between the seatback of the front seat and the backrest of the backseat. It's different from those published legroom measurements, because even in the biggest of cars, it's usually only a measurement of something like 28-30 inches. I'd be curious to see how that measurement compares between the Camry and the Impala.
Front legroom is kind of a funny thing, too. For example, the 300C/Charger/Magnum have something like 41.8", whereas my Intepid has 42.2". Yet my Intrepid actually feels like it has a bit less legroom up front than those LX cars.
. "However, while the Domestics continue to outpace the Europeans in long-term quality, the Japanese continue to dominate."
Please "copy" and "paste" something that shows where Impalas are more dependable than Camrys. Americans will be beating down the doors of a Chevy showroom to buy them and I must give credit to GM for making it "THE BEST KEPT SECRET OF THE CENTURY".
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Even the little Miata, which I owned last year (1996 ) seems to be losing it. Maybe they are being kind to GM. The Solstice and Sky are lookers for sure! Not sure what they were thinking with the Miata. I still like the first gen.
Why does the press pick on LeCrosse styling. Seem fair enough to me. Perhaps the attempt at Jag looks a little too much like Taurus, but that may change with time. Or maybe not. Overall, it looks a bit Buick and a bit New Buick, as in sort of fresh. Certainly looks better than some blister nose.
And yes, the Impala is smooth and blends well with the Accord, Lexus, Sonata's of this world.
-Loren
(waiting to hear from lexus owners
Besides, it's always been the sport coupes and convertibles that have been the attention getters of most manufacturers.
I dont think the Lacrosse offends, i think the design is just so GM, and thats not a good thing. It looks warmed over to me, it looks as if it existed 5 or 6 yrs ago. I think manufactures can do a boring car design and it can be a fresh look (i.e. 02-06 camry, 03-06 accord) while some will call these vehicles boring, they dont have a dated look to them and age very well.
The Impala may be smooth and thats all it has in common with the other vehicles. Being on a ancient platform i would hope they can nail ride smoothness. I wouldnt want to be in an Impala at any speed exceeding 90 mph. Im sure those dated underpinnings will be unable to cope. BTW 90 is where my lexus comes alive.
Actually, I think there are some Ok designs in the mid range market. The aren't all classics but I think they are trying to be creative, Chryco 300, Jetta, Hyundai, Honda, Mazda, Fusion, Altima. New Audi 3 is really smart looking.
I have to get this in before someone else!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Our $$$ goes to our property/home. Cars? If it's over 20K, No Way.
tC. Good enough. 17,199(with automatic, sunroof, cruise,mp3/cd/am/fm/160watt stereo, reclinging rear seats,
hatch,abs,etc).
I will serious consider one of these if they do not "tweak" them too much, and it is a 3 door(hatch), or at least offer a 3 door variation. Or if they design (next generation?) 5 door car to look say like the GT Elantra or Reno(both 5 doors, that appear as sedans, until ya get up close, and see the hatch).
Have a good one.
Well, there is the Altima. Still like the style. The Maxima kinda grows on ya. The Dodge Charger stands out because it is so ugly. Would rather own a Monte Carlo. At least it ain't too wierd in porportions. The Tiburon is great style and stands out. The New Old Stang sort of stands out, unless a '69 is parked next to it
Yeah, few cars in the family class under $21K which have any style. I guess the Altima is the best, IMHO, and the Sonata ain't so bad. Based soley on looks - Altima.
-Loren