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Comments
Wrong pronoun -- you are discussing the Smart. More to the point, you are using it as a strawman by inferring that small cars aren't profitable, thereby implying that GM's SUV-oriented lineup is optimal.
The point is that GMNA seems utterly unprepared for a world of $3 gas in the US, and how that will likely create problems for its truck/SUV-oriented strategy. I've seen no indications in the press of the Corsa coming to the US -- if anything, the Aveo appears to be the alternative that has been chosen for the US market. And given current sales, I don't see the Aveo competing in the same league as do its rivals from Honda and Toyota.
You jumped into a conversation between Xrunner and I. Here is the language I responded to:
GM caught flat-footed again. Will they want to respond to Smart or will the Aveo kind of be their answer. If DC gets 15K for the Smart, maybe GM could build and make a profit on a better looking Smart type car what with the temps and lower wage people they will be hiring.
How is my response to that language not about the Smart?
More to the point, you are using it as a strawman by inferring that small cars aren't profitable, thereby implying that GM's SUV-oriented lineup is optimal.
This is a completely false statement. My comments were directed specifically to the Smart, a two seater, three cylinder experiment which has not turned a dime profit for Daimler. Frankly, given the advancements in electric hybrid, hydraulic hybrid, and other fuel saving technology, I do not think a car like the Smart will ever have a large enough following in the US that it will be profitable.
I never said boo about other small cars. Your claim I think other small cars are not profitable happens to be 180 degrees from the truth.
I have asked you in the past that if you want to debate me, debate me on the arguments I am making, not the arguments you wish I am making.
I've seen no indications in the press of the Corsa coming to the US -- if anything, the Aveo appears to be the alternative that has been chosen for the US market.
GM is turning Saturn into the Opel division. Corsa is an Opel. GM brass say the forthcoming Saturn Astra is the first of what will be other Opels with Saturn.
The Aveo is a GM DAT. Chevrolet sells Aveos in countries where the Daewoo name is no longer used. Different brand, different set up.
And the point is that the Corsa is being discontinued in some markets in favor of the Aveo, such as in India where only the Aveo will be sold.
I don't see any indication that GM will carry both cars in the US, it will probably choose between one or the other. And since we already know that the Daewoo is destined for US shores, that doesn't favor the Corsa.
The strong euro and the cost of federalizing it also count against the Corsa coming to the US. In any case, the plan is to merge the two platforms for the next generation in 2010, at which point GM plans on building them outside of Europe.
Should we start a pool on when Waggoner will be canned?
Doubtful. GM only recently aquired GM DAT. The Corsa was always too expensive for markets such as China and India. Until GM got GM DAT, it did not have many options.
GM does in fact sell the Aveo, both as a Chevrolet and as a Daewoo in the EU, where it also sells the Opel and Vauxhall Corsa.
As US demographics are closer to the EU than to India, it stands to reason GM will follow its EU model rather than its Indian model.
In any case, the plan is to merge the two platforms for the next generation in 2010, at which point GM plans on building them outside of Europe.
Yes. The plan is to make North American Opel product in North America. Although I expect it will start a tad sooner than 2010.
There are only a few urban areas in the US with population densities anywhere near the large EU cities. Of those, New York, Boston, Chicago, Washington DC have good mass transportation systems.
I rented a Smart in Rome and Naples because the mass transit in those cities can be a bit of a nightmare for the not experienced. I did not rent a Smart when in Paris, London and Prague, because the mass transit there was easy.
I live in New York. I sold my car when I moved. There are times I think having a Smart would be cool. But when I weigh the expense of the car, expense and difficulty parking even such a small vehicle, insurance, etc. with the ease and relative low cost of mass transit, the Smart loses. I think most people in Boston, Chicago, and Washington DC do the same calculations as I.
Mass transit stinks in LA and to a lessor extent in San Francisco. I have never been to Seattle or Portland.
Maybe there is enough of a market there. I doubt it.
The rest of the US, with people driving on expressways and wide, fast moving, busy roads, are better suited to hybrids and larger small cars.
My opnion anyway.
Ford's market cap is 11.93 billion dollars. I suppose in theiry if that drops low enough, toyota, for example, could swoop in, buy the company, and convert the lines to build toyotas; it might be cheaper than building 20 new plants. They might even build "fords." After all, what they are lacking is QC.
The problem is they'd be left with ford's legacy, so this seems unlikely.
Here's something you might be interested in:
SN65 Mustang
Basically a local company here in Illinois combined a 65 fastback and 03 Cobra. Really interesting article and site.
The first link is the home page of the project. This following link is from the journal:
SN65 Journal
Unless you are hauling bricks or something who would need a monster vehicle like this.
You can't park it just anywhere. Parallel parking....forget it. On a mall lot you better find 2 spaces and be prepared to walk.
It has a huge console but the gear shift is this piece of round tubular metal that comes out of the steering column. Feels like a crow bar. The door handles, which are conveniently hidden under the armrest is made out of similar material. I think they cut extra pieces of tublar steel and it pokes through a hole in the door panel.
The dash is really ugly. The vehicle is huge inside so you would think they would lower the dash to give you a panoramic view forward, but no, the dash is massive and is high and is not sculptured or shaped. Nice feature is a compass built into the rear view mirror, and a temperature guage which is so tiny you have to get about 3 inches from it to see it. Steering is light for this size of vehicle but there is no "feel of the road".
It is big and strong and is pretty good for a logging road, but IMO this is not a vehicle you would want for tooling around town.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
There are 5 Buick models, 8 Pontiacs,4 Saturns, 9 Cadillacs plus Hummer and Saab and I was too tired to do GMC.
It would be good to narrow this list down and concentrate on a fewer models. IMO it is so confusing it probably scares off prospective buyers.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Sadly, it's true. The Holden Barina was a rebadged Opel Corsa until the current generation, when it became a rebadged Daewoo Kalos (Aveo hatchback). Australians are not happy with the switch.
Who will buy? Nobody that has to drive on the expressway. That is just about everyone. Maybe some really old folks who no longer feel comfortable on the expressway? Maybe parents will buy for their kids? No, if I bought a car for a teenager it woulkd not be a small lightweight car. In city driving-no, most folks still need to go on expressways. Nope dead on arrival.
I'd wager he'll be gone by 2008, but it could be a lot sooner.
-Loren
Yes indeed, if current management saves the day, and the future for GM, they will have been worth every penny, and should have a long-long career at the General. One of those hero status things, like the great Lee Iacocca.
And if GM is around for past another couple of years, we get to see the return of the RWD line of cars. Could be a bit interesting.
-Loren
GM has delivered only about 21,000 units for the first five months of the year. That's down more than 19% from the prior year.
Compare that to the Corolla, Civic, etc., and that's a drop in the bucket. Then compare that to the new fleet of Japanese subcompacts, and the situation looks even worse.
Imagine -- gas prices are higher this year than last, yet GM's Aveo sales, which were never great, are actually falling. And it will be interesting to see what percentage of these sales ended up going to fleets.
Almost impossible to do. The stock is too widely held. Remember Kerkorian tried with GM. He ended up with 8% and is probably the biggest stockholder. You would have to convince 51% of the stockholders that selling is a good idea. Every major stockholder knows the value of the holdings is far more than the stock value.
The balance sheets would tell you the opposite, particularly if you figure that the asset values are likely overstated compared to their real world value. (In practice, many of those fixed assets such as plant and equipment are probably not worth that much.) And of course, don't forget the corresponding liabilities that are quite high. The equity is essentially negative.
If an outsider such as TMC was to buy one of these automakers, it would buy the stock at a premium, which is typical in these situations.
But as noted, there really isn't all that much for a company such as Toyota to buy one of these firms. Its current strategy of using strong branding and popular products to take away market share from Ford and GM is probably more cost effective and requires less drama. Buying one of the Big 2 would probably be more trouble than it's worth, and TMC's history indicates that it would rather win by competing, rather than by buying the competition.
With that I agree.
Rocky
GM has delivered only about 21,000 units for the first five months of the year. That's down more than 19% from the prior year.
Then compare that to the new fleet of Japanese subcompacts, and the situation looks even worse.
Did you make up this statement or do you have different data?
http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp
Rocky
What is also interesting is that the new Camry is selling less than last year. Not a lot but the new model has not picked up sales. It looks like some sales of the Accord/Toyota went to the Civic/Corolla?
Oh yeah, watch for GM June sales:) While they cannot beat last years sellout employee pricing incentives they will do well.
When people say that GM's June sales are down 30%, remember last year there were virtually no cars left on the lots. I went past a Pontiac dealer and he had only two Sunfire coupes left on the lot.
In any case, i also agree that this is Not The Toyota Way.
And yeah, it's never going to sell in nearly the same quantity as something like a Civic or a Corolla, but that's because it's a subcompact, and more of a niche car. The Cobalt is more in the Civic/Corolla's league.
Tracinda Urges Partnership
:surprise: :confuse:
Rocky
There was 1 Aurora sale in April 2005 and 8 for the year at that point - this is found on GM's sales figures at their website. Looking at the May sales, they show 10 sales for May 2005 and 18 for the year.
The value in one of these factory sites is largely in its ability to produce goods that can be sold at a profit. But we know who decides to build the products that are being sold at a loss. (0% financing and $1.99 gas subsidies, anyone?)
2005: 558,092
2004: 380,267
2003: 429,742
2002: 403,036
2001: 459,050
2000: 472,078
1999: 497,047
Moral: No sane company would buy either Ford or GM, only the metal from the plants and buildings upon liquidation. The only people that actually buy GM stock are day traders waiting for artificial highs and lows and employees (via savings and pension plans). Anything other than addressing reliability perceptions is a smoke screen. GM and Ford can still prevail, but the time is getting near to actually do something. My parents informed me that "pet rocks" were actually sold in the 1960's and I recall Cabbage Patch Kid demand riots in the 1980's. If you can sell a rock to the US public, you can sell a Chevy with the appropriate advertising and warranty/coverage of maintenance costs.
Rocky
According to GM's own website, US deliveries for Jan-May 2006 are down 9% from last year:
Badge/ 2006 / 2005 / Change (%)
Buick / 101,378 / 111,408 / -9.0%
Cadillac / 87,355 / 92,156 / -5.2%
Chevrolet / 989,048 / 1,081,701 / -8.6%
GMC / 186,144 / 219,331 / -15.1%
HUMMER / 27,134 / 10,614 / 155.6%
Oldsmobile / 96 / 1,287 / -92.5%
Other - Isuzu / 5,440 / 5,611 / -3.0%
Pontiac / 162,822 / 176,980 / -8.0%
Saab / 14,396 / 14,354 / 0.3%
Saturn / 79,671 / 80,836 / -1.4%
I previously provided numbers from earlier periods that suggested that this reduction is not from reduced fleet sales, and that fleet sales had actually increased. What we're seeing is a continued decline in retail sales that cuts across most of the product lines.
DETROIT - General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM) has received no offer or proposal from Renault/Nissan with respect to its participating in the Renault/Nissan Alliance, as suggested in the 13-D Filing made today by the Tracinda Corporation. The Tracinda request will be taken under advisement by the GM Board of Directors. At this time, we have no further comment.