General Motors discussions

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  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Sorry, I was referring to June that has been discussed in the media. Fleet sales are down and Retail is up. Atp's are up. Incentives are down.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    What is that, a weekly report of deliveries?

    Fleet sales generally spike in January and July (that's when the rental fleets buy most of their cars), so I suspect that fleet sales wouldn't be a big factor in June as compared to the rest of the year. I provided data for earlier this year that showed that fleet sales were up.

    As for incentives, I see the $1.99 gas subsidy promotion, and now they're rolling out the 0% financing. Incentives seem alive and well to me!
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    gas subsidy is regional only in 2 markets I believe. Incentives are only for the last 3 days of June and are a minor part of the up tick.

    Incentives are significantly down per vehicle and ATP is significantly up.

    Fleet sales were up in one month but are down for the YTD.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The consumer loan rate is around 7%, so a 72 month loan on $50,000 adds up to over $11,000 in total interest. However, GM is probably not paying 7% for the money.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Maybe someday we will get a interest only loan on vehicles since nobody will beable to afford them outside of buying a Brickland, Chery, Geely. :sick:

    Rocky
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,678
    Interesting sales figures. The numbers were wrong for the Aveo but I think the actual percentage was pretty close at being down about 21%. The thing is the sales worldwide are up because these cars are being snapped up in the Middle East...I assume the U.S. sales are just extra bucks because they want to make this car for other markets any way.
    The figures that I found interesting were (and what does this mean?);

    Buick LaCrosse 4,990 6,527 27,110(2006) 34,420 (2005)

    Are people coming to there senses?
    IMO, a Camry or a Honda makes the statement I am a knowledgeable person who looks at the facts and makes a decision based on economy, repair rates, resale value. A LaCrosse says I want lots of room or I just go on auto-pilot and need to have a Buick (some kind of status symbol). I stress because of comments from the past; I HAVE NEVER OWNED AN ASIAN CAR AND SAME FOR MY WIFE......I just think overall the Asian car makers know the North American market and make cars that are right for this market.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    It's not just the total sales that are important in the June numbers for GM, it's the product mix. If their newer models show weaker sales growth (or heaven forbid sales declines) that should be a warning sign. The new large SUV's and car lines need to help carry them to some better models appear (if that indeed happens, their track record is not that great).

    Got to hand it to Kirk Kerkorian and Tracinda- he obviously wants to take over GM and try to work his magic for a turnaround- and the inbred nature of GM's management and the Board of Directors has been resisting. But a successful CEO like Carlos Ghosyn and Renault/Nissan might do the trick. Then it's bye bye for most of GM's senior management- good riddance, they have driven this once great company into the ground.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Carlos Ghosyn,

    Would be the one guy who could turn around GM IMO.

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Which effectively would bring all three down. Any buyout or merger has to be with a company significantly strong. Why a significantly strong company wants to assume GM debt and problems, I don't know.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    And may I add, profit and lowering debt load is the only way out. They could make and giveaway a million cars.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Don't know if he can juggle being head guy of all three. Plus there's the move to Tennessee that's going on - too much on his plate.

    But I think the GM management should study his style, his determination and his ability to make a plan and stick with it. They might learn something.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Totally agree. Ghosn has too much on his hands and just because Renault was able to take on Nissan it doesn't mean R-N can make GM healthy. I posted because I thought it was a new twist, showing KK flexing his muscles a little bit and actually having some type of idea to help GM.

    GM is in bad shape, period. The only way I would think anyone would want to mess with GM is if it were a similar situation like when GM swooped in on the Daewoo ashes. Chickens coming home to roost. ;)
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    GM's profits depend on two basic things: 1) how much they can get for the vehicle; and 2) how many they can sell at that price. In other words, the lower the price the more they have to sell to make a profit. But prices that are too high will push any customers away. Prices that are too low may increase sales, but probably not to the point of profits.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    IMO, a Camry or a Honda makes the statement, "BAAA! BAAA! I am sheep who needs to be led! I take everything CR says at face value and make a decision based on the opinions of some bitter, irrelevant ex-hippie who looks like Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons."

    A LaCrosse says, "I want an attractive, reliable, durable car with lots of room that delivers phenomenal fuel economy. I want a Buick because they are truly excellent cars FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE! I DON'T NEED NOR WANT AN ASIAN CAR AND SAME GOES FOR MY GIRLFRIEND! I don't overpay for an overated inferior Asian make and have to be treated like crap by their arrogant shark-like dealers. I just know that General Motors knows what I want and make cars that are right for me and my family."
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    And opportunity for new products. Recall this wonder...
    corvair? Corvette? No the..
    -loren
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Yes, and this part rings so true:
    Exodus confirms failure

    The scale of the desertion from Delphi and GM, expected to lose some 30,000 workers to buyouts, is stunning. No matter how this corporate triage plays out, the biggest prices will be paid by the hourly workers wooed from their lives on the line, the salaried folks bounced from their offices, the communities built around the tax revenue -- not the guys at the top making the decisions and paying the lawyers.

    Even more, this rush toward new lives -- the fact it's so necessary -- testifies to the scale of Detroit's failure, however long in coming it may be. Laid bare is Detroit's inability to adequately anticipate the strength of its competition, to counter it and to prosper in a way that would have made so much of this unnecessary.

    There's only one greater indignity possible: That after all the cutting is done, after all the plants are closed that will be closed, after all the product plans have been revised, Americans will buy fewer of Detroit's cars and trucks than they do today -- no matter what Detroit does to heal itself.

    Then all bets are off.
    :sick: :sick:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Don't laugh. The rear-engined Dauphine was once the second-best selling import behind the Volkswagen bug. Anybody remember the city and country horn?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    After the housing bust of 2007, people may think twice about over extending themselves by buying on time. By next year those luxury rides used, costing $50K today, may be had for $30K or less -- who knows?

    Or all is well, and the economy is just wonderful and R.N.GM alliance is selling cars like crazy. :) Life is good again, and happy days are here again. That would be all too rosy a scenario. I know, maybe everything stays status quo. That I really doubt though. Crystal ball,often a little cloudy when I try to use the dang thing, indicates something major happens between the second half of this year to the end of the following year.

    All car manufacturers may hit a heavy head wind soon.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I saw one, all so many years ago, near my home, with those hubcaps which looked like pie tins. There is something about the little guy that did make you smile. That is unless you were the one having to get out and push the car over a grade. :shades:
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    If there was any possibility of buying GM, the only makers who I can think of that might be interested would be players that would like to expand their US market presence in one large chunk, which leads to VW, Renault and FIAT.

    VW and FIAT both have their financial woes (VW needs to recover from its own US issues and the profound failure of the Phaeton), which leaves Renault, which is not entirely in great shape itself. Ghosn is going to have his hands full with Renault, so I'd wonder whether there's time for a turnaround as massive as would be this one.

    In any case, while GM management goes on at length about all of its "legacy costs", it's worth noting that GM has lost its prime cash generator with the sale of GMAC, while per the last quarterly report, the company had long-term debt totalling $277 billion (significantly larger than the often referenced $48 billion in retirement and pension obligations.) This is making bankruptcy appear increasingly inevitable -- where is GM going to generate the revenues needed to pay its obligations?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I wonder if Alfa Romeos will sell? Heard something, some time back, about the return to America. Cool looking cars. And would a Renault car sell in America? Would imagine there are already more cars sitting on lots in American than can be easily sold. Too bad in a way, as we would have more interesting cars, no doubt.

    Same old problems though- too few dealerships, and you never know if they are here to stay. An Alfa, though possibly a bit pricey, would be something to own. Some really interesting looking cars. Anyone know how reliable they are?

    How about those Renaults? If there was an alliance, would there possibly be a Renault-GM smaller car? Nothing exciting now, so why not try something to spark the smaller car interest in GM's? I guess the Cobalt Coupe looks OK -- reliability ??? More potential than the Cavalier, at any rate. A Renault small car may be too costly. Within the alliance is the Nissan however. Now there are some cars to build off of. I imagine all they are talking about though are the financing deals, and no sharing of platforms.
    -Loren
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    That one brings back memories. Thing about Renaults of that time (and the VW Bug also) is that they had inadequate heaters to cope with North American Winters (I was living in Buffalo at the time- my friend had one)- and I remember scraping off the frost from INSIDE the windshield, haha. Never had a problem with the air conditioner though (they didn't offer such a thing!). But the worst part is that they didn't have much structure to them with their engine being in the back, so my friend totaled his Renault Dauphine by sliding into the back of a big Buick, which was barely scratched.

    Remember the Renault LeCar? Or any of the Citroen weird looking models, or the Peugeot?
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Americans "vote" with their wallets and purses. It's a different market and era than a decade ago. Honda and toyota are the innovators now. GM and Ford are just trying to stay afloat. $3.00 gas prices and GM is launching a new Tahoe. Honda and Toyota have hybrids and small cars that get over 40 mpg.

    >

    Based on your last statement, it sounds like you are the sheep that is being led by GM.

    Buy what you like but don't put down others for their choices. Would you feel better if people were buying more German made or Korean cars????
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,678
    IMO, a Camry or a Honda makes the statement, "BAAA! BAAA! I am sheep who needs to be led!

    Fair enough, that is why some people buy Buicks and some buy Camrys or Accords. (By the way, I think a LaCrosse is an OK car)
    However, usually more sales means the vehicle is more popular, and it is usually more popular because the price and value are there. It also means it will fetch more at trade-in time, which some people might consider important. IMO people don't buy these cars because they are sheep....showing their individuality in their car may not be important and they just want the best over all value.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,678
    Remember the Renault LeCar? Or any of the Citroen weird looking models, or the Peugeot?

    I remember them and you do have to give La French some credit for original design at least.
    New Citroen models actually look really nice, they took all those old style cues (wheel way at the back with a fender skirt affect) and smoothed it out so it really stands out, and looks attractive. Need more of that kind of creative styling over here.
    New Peugeot's also have a very unique design, with a huge side view of a stylized lion right in the middle of the grill.
    When you see some of these sensible but original designs it makes me think GM is really bland.
    Now the LeCar...let's just forget about that idea (however, it does make sense in Europe.....small narrow roads and high price of gas).

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,678
    Based on your last statement, it sounds like you are the sheep that is being led by GM.

    That's good, because the statement says "I'm going to buy a Buick no matter how good the competition is.....because I know Buicks are the best".

    One thing everyone forgets is this, "What would Buicks and all North American cars be like if it weren't for the Japanese cars". North American cars are only as good as they are because they had to try and match the Japanes in quality and superior engineering. Think what they would be like without the competition - no safety features, guzzle gas, wide gaps in the panels, low tech engineering, etc.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Without any competition would we still be driving early 1900's cars? Somehow I am skeptical. However, the Japanese cars had to be better than the American's just to sell, until the 1973 oil crisis, then, because they had the best fuel economy, the Japanese cars were a hot item.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,678
    Without any competition would we still be driving early 1900's cars?

    No because there was competition from the big 3 and of course Europe so cars would have gotten better. But, the Japanese really lifted the quality to new levels very quickly and forced North American car makers to meet higher standards. IMO without Japanese cars we would be about 10 years behind.

    On NBC evening news an autmotive expert says GM is in big trouble. A Nissan alliance would help because Nissan got changed around and came out with some exciting new products with new direction, but GM just doesn't have enough product in the right market these days. Concentrated on trucks and SUV's at the wrong time. He said what we have said right here.....too many different car lines that overlap and just cause confusion.....and bland non-creative styling. Looks hopeless.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    This episode reeks of a clever ploy by Mr. Kerkorian to drive up the stock price and allow him to recoup some of his investment in GM.

    Both he and Mr. York approached Nissan-Renault and asked if the company would be interested in a merger or some sort of alliance with GM.

    Nissan-Renault didn't dismiss the idea out of hand...so Mr. Kerkorian issued a press release saying that he BELIEVES (key word here) that there is a possibility of a merger or alliance between GM and Nissan-Renault.

    What happens next? GM's stock price rises, as if on cue.

    For Mr. Kerkorian, it's a win-win scenario. If some sort of alliance DOES go through, Mr. Kerkorian wins.

    If not, while the stock price stays up, Mr. Kerkorian can unload his stock without suffering a huge loss.

    What this whole scenario does tell me is that Mr. Kerkorian does not see GM's stock price - and, by implication, its performance - as improving much in the near future if it stays on its current course. He is looking to recoup as much of his investment as possible, and this is one way to do it.

    Considering that he has a person on the GM Board - Jerry York - who presumably has an insider's knowledge of what is in the GM product pipeline as well as its true financial condition, this may be an ominous sign for the corporation's prospects.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,753
    I don't recall the Japanese cars being better in the 70s and early 80s; they just had better gas mileage and low prices. They were called econoboxes for a reason.

    They rusted away rapidly. They had little to go wrong with 3 speeds manual and a 4 cylinder motor and not even power options. They certainly didn't have power windows and other things to fail.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yes, they did have rust problems, and poor steel was used.
    And no, they had options, and automatic transmissions. And they did offer a lot of stuff standard. The Datsun 510 had disk brakes, Macpherson struts, independent suspension all around,got 20/30 MPG. Not bad for 1968. Of course you could pay nearly double and get the BMW back when. You can still see some of those old 510 zooming around the race tracks for fun. I think you will find many popular and classy Japan makes in the early years. The 240Z is a legend. The first Celicas were selling a couple years later for more than original price. Toyota had the Crown, Cressida, and Supras.

    They were more than econo boxes. A Chevette is an econo box.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Hyundai is always thinking big. A merger of Hyundai and GM would be a big thing. Nothing I would recommend, but just a thought. :blush:
    -Loren
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I don't recall the Japanese cars being better in the 70s and early 80s; they just had better gas mileage and low prices. They were called econoboxes for a reason.

    The Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic were clearly better than the Vega and Pinto.

    They rusted away rapidly. They had little to go wrong with 3 speeds manual and a 4 cylinder motor and not even power options. They certainly didn't have power windows and other things to fail.

    They didn't rust like the Vega. The Vega and Pinto didn't have power windows in the versions I saw. My friend's Vega had a 3 speed transmission too.

    You disparage the Japanese cars as being junk, but then you explain that they didn't have much to go wrong because of how simple they were. Sounds like even you believe they were more reliable.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The Japanese cars were far superior to the Vega, as were the Pinto and the Gremlin (!).

    The Chevette was durable, but GM let it run unchanged for way too long. And there was nothing fun or enjoyable about driving it. It was reliable, economical transportation - nothing more, nothing less. At least a Civic could be fun to drive, and offered the "high tech" (for the day) allure of the CVCC engine.

    But, in all honestly, I've never heard a Chevette owner say that his or her car was a lemon.

    Interestingly, the original J-Cars were aimed at the 1976-81 Accord. But as the Accord and Civic got bigger and more luxurious, the J-cars remained unchanged. By the mid-1980s, they competed with the Civic, as opposed to the Accord.
  • albert6albert6 Member Posts: 52
    I always liked the look of the whale-tail Riviera.

    Not good for rear vision, I think, but still an interesting shape.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Today's pressure put on GM by Tracinda (Kirkorian) in suggesting that GM could ally with Nissan/Renault is very interesting.

    It might actually help GM if it came to pass. Still, I'm not so sure that Nissan/Renault/Ghosn want to bite off this big a problem.

    If nothing ends up happening, then it still is strong pressure put on GM's current management by Kirkorian indicating that he thinks things are not happening fast enough. Wagoner is the first guy in the cross hairs.

    If the alliance actually happens then you can be sure that Carlos won't be slow to act.

    Either way, it looks like GM will be a lot smaller, and radical changes are probably coming.

    My prediction a few posts ago about Wagoner lasting till 2008 is probably optimistic. I'm now thinking that he'll be lucky to make it to 2007.

    Rocky, what do you think? What's your Dad's take on this? I have a sense you feel for GM in your heart and want it to succeed, but even you see the ineptitude of the management. I don't see them giving us a lot to hope for right now. Something needs to change.

    We're pretty sure here that styling will NOT save GM!
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone like's something different. I would say, off hand, the 1960's then into the earliest 70's was the peak for GM style. I would rate some of the current, like the Solstice up there with the best, yet most of the current ones, are closer to the lower half on the list.
    -Loren
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    I don't think Nissan would want a merger, but an alliance for sharing technology would be a good idea, although such alliance would be really limited. Let's see! GM can benefit from Nissan's small car platforms, engines and CVT. In return, Nissan gets the 6.6 Duramex Diesel for a Titan heavy duty pickup.. and..mm.. what else does GM have to offer? Maybe the two-stage hybrid?

    What do you think Rocky?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well, Chevrolet certainly sounds French....
    Interesting read here
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    That is very much true :sick:

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Hey those new Camaro and Challenger show cars are getting near the 80" width limit. May have to get a truck license to drive one. :D I am not interested in monster wide, and too tall cartoon renditions of fine classics. But I am sure they will sell. Sort of like the SUV world meets Muscle car crossover, with a hint of chop top fever going on here. Fat - don't worry, just a larger engine - no worries!
    -Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Rocky, what do you think? What's your Dad's take on this? I have a sense you feel for GM in your heart and want it to succeed, but even you see the ineptitude of the management. I don't see them giving us a lot to hope for right now. Something needs to change.

    I personally think GM needs new blood and someone that has prestige. Maybe somebody like Roger Penske ?

    I will only care for GM, as long as they try to stay an american company by using domestic content suppliers to build there cars. Unfortunately those suppliers are moving out of the United States, leaving our vehicles both domestic and transplants with less american made parts. :sick:

    I haven't talked to dad lately. I will try to talk to him within the next couple of days to see what he thinks. ;)

    But yeah we both want GM to succeed and do the right things for it's workforce.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Agree !!!!!

    Both company's could benefit. GM could use Infinti's Rear Active Steer and gas engine technology for starters. :blush:

    Rocky
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    I was wrong when I said Renault-Nissan has no interest in GM. Renault-Nissan is actually interested in buying 20% in GM in what will be a stunning shakeup in automobile history if it happens.

    Check this out
    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060701/AUTO01/607010372/1148-
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Kirk Kerkorian's proposal to merge GM, Nissan and Renault was widely reported yesterday.

    K.K. is the largerst GM shareholder: he seems to envision a sort of Daimler/Chrysler structure for the three brands.

    Is this the way forward for GM, Nissan and Renault? Combined world market share of the 3 brands would be 23.7%.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13639768/
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,678
    Now here is an original beautiful design....2006 Citroen.
    Just to show what can be done, creative, beautiful, new,
    2006 Citroen

    Is there someone who thinks a LaCrosse or Lacerne looks better than this????? ;) Be sure to scroll down to see the side and rear views.

    To see more:
    more pix Citroen

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • irnmdnirnmdn Member Posts: 245
    A GM bankruptcy would take Renault-Nissan down with it.
    Doubt anyone would touch GM with ten-foot pole for a long term alliance.
    Kerkorian plan would be to take some profits in the short-term and ditch GM for good.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,120
    Ugh, I don't like it. Makes me think of a cross between one of those 70's Citroen S&M models and a Prius! The rear-end actually makes me think a bit of some old early 50's domestic independent. I think Kaiser-Fraser rear-ends looked kinda like that! I see a bit of Audi in the lines of the car too. It's interesting, I'll give it that much!

    I'm not a big fan of the LaCrosee, but I think it looks better. And I definitely think the Lucerne looks better! But hey, that's just me! :P

    FWIW, I thought those older Citroen "French Pastry" models of the 50's and 60's were way cool.
  • grabowskygrabowsky Member Posts: 74
    Did you really not know this? :confuse:
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Of cours, why would they? Then GM does falter and go under, there will be plenty of goodies for others to snap up.
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