Perhaps your mother would like the LaCrosse, Its a gorgeous car, drives great, good mileage, and the unbeatable ride of a Buick.
I've had one for the last year, and its one of the best cars I've ever owned. Personally, I think the foreign cars are way over-rated. Bland styling, MB is on the way down since the Chrysler take-over, ford styling is just dreadful on the exterior, though very much improved on the interior. No doubt about it, the General IS back. The styling is killing everyone else.
Cadillac CTS is one of the few cars where sales continue to go UP year after year, the Solstice is red-hot, the new G6 convertible is an incredible value and very stylish, the new truck line is the most improved look for trucks in a generation. All that and now Toyota is having serious quality problems...... so much they've had to slow production. Yeah, the general is back, big time back. GMC-Pontiac-Buick dealers merged are an awesome idea, one dealer, 22 vehicle choices. Lutz is running the show.... Look out Japan..... its going down.
You sound more optimistic than Wagoner! But don't recommend La Crosses to your friends unless you can afford to lose some. You may not lose friends if you recommend a Corvette or an Escalade, but you surely will if you recommend this loser with prehistoric pushrod, equally obsolete 4 speed tranny, and a look that resembles Taurus the king of rentals. And, of course, add to that the Buick's Great Grand Pa image and horrible resale value.
Remember Toyota? They had to launch an entire new line (Scion) to get anyone under (with money) under 40 to buy a Toyota.
And they were successful. Remember Geo? How well did that go?
Volvo used to be stodgy. Now they are much cooler.
Remember Saab? Are they cool yet? How's that GM SUV called the 9-7X doing? Born from jets!
images change quickly
Unfortunately for GM, perhaps not quickly enough. They haven't executed well. They're almost out of time. Good recent efforts, though maybe not enough. We should know in two years.
I really didn't know I was in a room full of Soccer Mom's! GM's styling & reliability is not the problems that are hurting GM, it's thier Retirement Package that is tied to ALL GM companies, which include it's GMAC, that also finances Homes, as well as vehicles, and that is how they have to pay a percentage to all executives that have Retired! Now that would hurt any company, and maybe they should attempt a restructuring of it's Retirement Packages, absolutely nothing to do with it's vehicles, nor reliability, but you people with your Yuppie Cars, that turned a perfectly good utility vehicle into an SUVEEEE, that drove the cost of these vehicles up so high, only the fortunate could afford them! I've ALWAYS owned one of these SUVEEEEE's, because I NEED them, but with the Ladies/Soccer Mom's/Dad's, that ALL want this instead of a Minivan, and got what they wanted (which most wives, including my own, get their way), but will NEVER see OFFROAD, and if it did, they wouldn't even know how to change into 4 wheel drive! How many SUVEEEEEEEE's are on the road today, that will NEVER see off road use? Possibly 95%? People purchase these vehicles without even knowing it's capabilities, or how to use them! Like the Porsche Cayan "S" (sp), that cost in the $90,000.++ range, or $100,000+ Hummer's, that WILL NEVER, EVER see so much as a dirt road, and that has spoiled the 4 X 4 for all of us that really NEED these vehicles! What would they have done 25, 30 years ago, with the Locking Hubs? Now they need a button on the dash to put this vehicle into 4 wheel drive, some Manufacturer's don't even chance that thought, they make them constant 4 wheel drive! You people have a nice life, as I KNOW that GM has NOT lost it's apeal, it's only lost it's base customers because they really THINK in their minds that Foreign is better, when it really isn't, it's STILL American Design & Engineering! Remember the 1st Toyota, Plush SUVEEEE? That wasn't EVEN a 4 wheel drive, but only a front wheel drive, with a High Ride appearance, Go Figure! Enjoy your foreign vehicles, BUT don't blame any Presidents, NAFTA, or the WTO, it is the General Public that has traded US in, for foreign cars!!! Shame, but true! Enjoy your FOREIGN Vehicle's, have a nice life, I'll not bother the Soccor Mom's/Dad's again! There just is not any sense to even try to make you see what is really true, and what has really happened, and it's a shame also because a lot of people put thier trust in YOU to keep thier jobs, including myself, when I came Home from Vietnam! I lost a good job at a GM Assembly Plant, as did my father because of slumping sales, with more and more foreign cars entering the USA!!! Before I go, 2 more points, people have said in response to my last Post that the doors on the Monte Carlo were too heavy, well my wife uses that car, and has absolutely NO PROBLEMS at all with the doors being too heavy because they are NOT, and she does NOT need a FOB button to open the doors for her, as a lot of people do, and use faithfully, also someone mentioned a new model Toyota, sorry but I cannot think of the name off hand (maybe Yaris?), but that is the most Butt ugly vehicle I have EVER seen, and wouldn't want to be caught DEAD in that thing, and it don't look like it has enough room for the Driver & 1 passenger, never mind the for looks only back seat! Some of the general public like to put on a show on how they drive a fuel efficiant car, like the Hollywood Stars did at Toyota's request, but went home afterwards to get into their Ferrari, or whatever, that only gets probably 7 - 9 MPG, but for photo ops they were mostly driving the Prius to that Awards ceremony! GM STILL has style, Fuel efficiant, comfortable, powerful, and long lasting, take abuse, and SAFE vehicles, which I have constantly proved to myself over all the years, and all the GM Vehicles I've purchased since I've come Home from the service! All my GM Trucks have had over 130,000 miles, with 2 having over 250,000 miles on them when I sold them! Please look at the "Barrett, Jackson Auction" on most weekends, and SEE what sells, and for what price?!?! Almost always American Iron, Icons of the worlds best! Usually at 6 or 7 figures, I have NEVER seen any Honda's, Toyota's, or any other "Pocket Rocket's" sell at this Auction! God Bless & GOOD LUCK, you may need it someday (or AAA)!
>loser with prehistoric pushrod, equally obsolete 4 speed tranny
Ahhhh. Another one stuck in the concept that kidracers with OHCs revving at 7000 rpm for normal driving is the only motor on earth for anyone with knowledge. The 4-speed tranny is smooth and durable. Compare to your 5 and 6 speed Toyo problem transmissions with intelligence? Read the Camry Woe group here. Avalon before and Lexus and Highlander IIRC.
Oddly more and more of the Camrys here are owned by people over 60. They probably will never drive it hard enough to know there's a transmission operation problem and hesitation.
>Taurus the king of rentals.
That contramands the often recited mantra here that GM is king of rentals and they shouldn't sell to rentals and fleets. Which is it?
Comemon. This is about styling saving GM. The LaCrosse is a great step in style for GM. So anytime something good is posted about a GM we get posts from the I-hate-GM posters.
Maybe the host needs to change the name of the section or make a new group for the I-Hate-GM but I don't really know what's changed posts.
Go for the Lucerne! If everybody has Camries and Avalons, your Mom would stand out with the Lucerne as she won't just be one of the crowd. I, personally, have had excellent experience with the Buick make. Don't believe that $39K sticker. NOBODY pays that for a Lucerne - even the most loaded one. The car that dealer has sounds like the type of car I'd go for. Too bad she doesn't like the LaCrosse. My girlfriend's car has given her absolutely no trouble. If that dealer really wants to make a sale, he can get a three-holer Lucerne from another dealer.
"Comemon. This is about styling saving GM. The LaCrosse is a great step in style for GM. So anytime something good is posted about a GM we get posts from the I-hate-GM posters.
Maybe the host needs to change the name of the section or make a new group for the I-Hate-GM but I don't really know what's changed posts."
You keep on comparing the GM of today to GM of the past. Rather you need to compare them to the competition of today of which they are still not up to snuff. The LaCrosse may be a step in the right direction but exactly which competing car is the LaCrosse better than when looking at the total package of pricing, equipment, warranty, style and driving dynamics?
The only guy who will be happy with those troublesome five and six-speed units is the local transmission specialist. "Oh what a feeling - Toyota! My kids are going to Harvard and my wife's getting an ermine coat!"
Loser pushrods? Good God, will this argument ever end? Heck, I have both pushrod and DOHC cars. I can't tell the difference between them except I miss that little "kick in the butt" from the rush of torque from the pushrod unit when I hit the gas when driving the DOHC car. Personally, I don't want a car that revs itself to death before it gets any power. I like to see the tach go no higher than 2500 RPM during normal highway driving and get nervous if it goes over 3500 RPM when punching the accelerator. I'd be terrified of redlining it at 7000 RPM.
By the way, the average slob doesn't know whether his car is OHC, OHV, a flathead or has sleeve valves. Any guy who is convinced that OHC is better than pushrods just because some salesman told him so is truly a sheep. Personally, I don't want a car that revs itself to death before it gets any power.
Well, I don't hate GM. In fact, I don't hate or love any manufacturer. I did hate one of the two GM vehicles that I owned and loved the other one (hated the Blazer and loved the Prizm)- and, anyone would hate a vehicle that unreliable.
Having said that, I appreciate your viewpoint that differs from mine.
But why do you think LaCrosse style is good? From outside, it's really a Taurus reborn. And, interior is still behind competition. Can you explain? First of all, most of my friends don't know what LaCrosse is. They know Century. And, they don't know LaCrosse replaces Century. Why change nameplates? To get rid of "rental car" stigma? The same holds for LeSabre/ Lucerne. Buick's nameplates are so short-lived these days. But think of Accord - it has survived decades and the survival speaks for Honda's determination. Where is GM's determination? In fact, LaCrosse recycled so much of old GM parts that nothing except the name is new. Same for Lucerne - old powertrains in a new body. The idea is to make customers think that they are getting something new when they aren't.
I recommend Maxima for fintail's mom! I can imagine how cool she'll look in Maxima when her friends are driving Camrys and Accords.
fintails Mom will make a mistake if she buys Lucerne. Because the nameplate will die even before the warranty expires!!! that will further hurt the resale value and she would be carrying the "dead car" stigma on top of "rental car" stigma.
>By the way, the average slob doesn't know whether his car is OHC, OHV, a flathead or has sleeve valves.
I totally agree. Most people purchasing cars in the group I would be interested in don't know and don't care. That would include mid-sized to full-sized cars from Corolla to Camry to Accord to LaCrosse to Lucerne to 500 to...
People posting here, in most cases, are more aware of what's in the car, or at least more aware of what's been advertised about the car both overtly and covertly.
Both the Century and LeSabre names were very old. Century goes back to 1936 when Buick placed the big Roadmaster engine in the light Special body - sort of the original muscle car if you will. LeSabre goes back to the 1951 concept car and was used on a production car since 1960. The Accord name only came around in 1976. Will Honda still be calling its mainstream car "Accord" in 2046? We'll see.
I can understand that. GM has never built an engine that could hang at 7000 rpm without sounding like it would fly apart at any second. And if you like tortoise engines, shouldn't you be driving one of these?
Yes, GM nameplates were not short-lived back in 1950s. They're vulnerable now. And, Honda's nameplates like Civic, Accord, CR-V are stable these days. Things have changed. Today Toyota and Honda are what GM and Ford were back then. Yes, things may change again 30 years from now.
"Dead car" stigma is a big stigma - a neighbor of mine who owns an Alero was very upset when GM stopped making Aleros and she has vowed to not buy GM again.
Lemko, I can lend you my 2002 Protege and you can redline it anytime. It's fun - just step on the gas hard at 40-45 MPH, 2.0L DOHC engine will easily rev over 6000 RPM and the car will zoom to 65-70 MPH. I did this almost everday during first 3 years of ownership and eventually ended up damaging the emission valve. Then, I was driving around lightfoot with the damaged emission valve (and a check-engine light). After spending $300 on a new emission valve, I'm back at it again. Highway passing is fun with my Mazda. My 06 CR-V's 2.4L DOHC engine isn't as fun (probably, Honda tranny trades performance for better MPG numbers) - but still highway passing is easy. I couldn't do such highway passing with my Blazer's huge 4.3L pushrod (again, to Blazer's defense, the its engine wasn't designed to do this).
Saturn, Caddy are shifting to such engines. I tried GM's 3.9L V6 - it's still not good. Ecotec is also behind competition. However, I'm hearing good things about the new 3.6L V6 - and I will test-drive an Aura on a highway before I trade in my Protege for a midsize car.
I push my S2000 past 8 grand on a daily basis and she's never given me so much as a wimper whether at full boil or just puttering around town... It's all about that driver-vehicle connection that no pushrod outside of a Corvette can deliver. And outside of the vette what other supercar uses pushrods to put the power down?
I can understand that. GM has never built an engine that could hang at 7000 rpm without sounding like it would fly apart at any second. And if you like tortoise engines, shouldn't you be driving one of these?
Really? The LS7 seems to do pretty good at that RPM. Besides, how many cars actually redline at 7k or above? The answer is not many, OHC or not.
It's all about that driver-vehicle connection that no pushrod outside of a Corvette can deliver. And outside of the vette what other supercar uses pushrods to put the power down?
I don't suppose that could be because the Corvette's engine is designed as a sports car engine (like the S2k's engine) while the rest of them are for mainstream family cars. Would you rather have the Accord's engine in the S2k?
Oh, and besides the Corvette - Viper, Saleen, Mosler, and I'm pretty sure there are a couple others that I don't remember.
I had a Honda CB350 motorcycle in the 1970's that had a redline of 12,500 rpm and accelerated 0-60 in under 5 seconds- talk about a thrill. I don't know any car engines that could do that. But you know, Honda and BMW got their start with sophisticated motorcycle engines, and they still seem to have an emphasis on making fabulous engines. To my knowledge, GM, Ford, or Chrysler never went the motorcycle route. I guess in a motorcycle, the engine is mostly what you are buying, don't have to worry about trunk space or fancy headlights, etc.
Among GM's challenges is to make better engines for mainstream vehicles, but I'll bet that they are concentrating their efforts now in making their new and existing engines more fuel efficient, because if they don't do that, the next oil price shock could kill them.
"Would you rather have the Accord's engine in the S2k?"
Actually, not ideal but sure. Owned a few 4-cylinder Accords in the past and drove them exactly the same way. They were very durable and never gave me an ounce of trouble. Redline on them was only 6800 so it wasn't quite the same as the S but they were equally smooth all the way to redline.
Saleen is a pushrod? Interesting, I'll admit to having little knowledge of the S7 and the Viper, yes. Forgot about that one.
what do you recommend that the mom buy? A Camry? How original Of course she should buy a Camry...a proven winner. You can't really say the recalls are a negative until Toyota fixes the problem and remember, when they ramp up production, make new models with NEW engineering and technology, there will be some glitches. But it is how they handle the glitches that will matter.....lets remember how GM handles the seals problem, mainly ignore it. Buicks are high in JD Powers surveys because they use technology they have had years to perfect.
remember Toyota? They had to launch an entire new line (Scion) to get anyone under (with money) under 40 to buy a Toyota.
This was clever marketing. They have the mature car buyers wrapped up, they just need a new line to appeal to a younger group, so they will graduate to regular Toyotas when they get older. GM buyers no longer know where they are supposed to move up to...the company is off in so many directions.
And the idea about being original? Camry is a top selling car because people like the style, dependability, and value. Is someone supposed to buy an unpopular car like a Malibu Maxx just to show they can be different?
Being hand built, the LS7 might get enough special attention to be buttoned up pretty well for a pushrod. The C6Rs in ALMS do seem to be noisier than the Aston Martins, though. Nascar is pretty much the pinnacle of high-rpm pushrod development, and those engines have a nasty rasp to them. By contrast, the Honda F20C hums nicely all the way to 9000 rpm (the VTEC just makes it louder) and the Nissan RB20 is almost melodic on its way to 8000 rpm.
Besides, how many cars actually redline at 7k or above?
Piles of Hondas and Nissans built in the last two decades, plus some Mazdas and a few Toyotas and Mitsubishis. The pickings are rather slim on the "domestic" side.
Now there's a car for the middle America car buyer. We can replace all minivans, SUVs, and mid-sized and full-sized cars with S2000s. Perfect solution to everyone's engine needs?
Along with my Accords, I've pushed my Acura MDX up to redline on a few occasions, how's that for a data point?
But, the argument was not that an S2000 is an ideal form of transport. I'm just stating that there is no reason to fear a high strung motor, high RPM motor(as Lemko stated) if it designed and built for such a purpose.
This is about styling saving GM. The LaCrosse is a great step in style for GM.
Hope not. Buick had some better styles in last 10 years that were scrapped. Except for oft mentioned rear end, the Lucerne is a decently styled car.
Also, think that LaCrosse is built in Canada. Potential lookers/buyers of LaCrosse should alternatively consider Camry or Accord to keep jobs in the US.
Anyone who would pick a Camry over a Lucerne has obviously not sat in the Lucerne. The Camry is just plain-Jane. The Lucerne is near-luxury, if not actual luxury. The interior is stunning in comparison to a Camry.
I do like the Audi interior, generally, more than the Lucerne. I am not saying the Lucerne is perfect.
I am guessing a high % of the anti-GM folks here have simply not touched a GM vehicle in real life.
At least test drive a car before bashing it. It should be a prerequisite to posting here. I am soooo tired of you folks that blow smoke instead of facts.
and no Taurus was ever as nice as the LaCrosse. What is it that you guys smoke to make you think this way?
We'll see what happens. She won't buy one new...the depreciation will be steep and it will be a bargain used. That 39K model will likely be around 20K ish in 2 years. I don't know if she needs a V8 anyway...her Taurus has that archaic old V6 and she thinks it is fine. The 3800 would be like a northstar in comparison. She'll have to drive them all when the time comes, and I plan to be with her for that.
My mother is another person turned off GM in the 80s. She had a Ciera back then...very plush and relatively smooth and economical, but it was slapped together like a Russian car from the same period. Within a couple of years the body hardware was falling apart, and it was creaky and squeaky. The early Taurus that replaced it seemed 100 years more advanced. So for 20 years since, those are what she has driven. She is also one who views big Toyotas as almost domestic cars...she's older but not clueless, and knows where they are made.
Oh, and I read that assembly quality on Lucernes is inconsistent...the one I saw anyway looked nicely put together, better gaps and materials than what it replaces for sure.
I owned 2 GM products. If I didn't own any, what would make me anti-GM? I speak from personal experience (which is often personal and not representative).
and no Taurus was ever as nice as the LaCrosse. What is it that you guys smoke to make you think this way?
My grandparents had a 1989 Taurus LX, which at the time was the highest trim level short of the SHO. It was a really nice car. Now that car has been gone for 13 years and my memory might be a bit fuzzy, but I'd say it had a nicer interior than any current LaCrosse.
It's hard to directly compare your typical late 80's car to a modern car though, because they they tended to use less hard plastic back then. They often used thicker carpeting, plusher fabrics, and kept the vinyl/hard plastic to a minimum, at least on the nicer cars.
That '89 LX got replaced by a 1994 Taurus GL though, and it wasn't nearly as nice.
As for the Camry versus the Lucerne, I've sat in them both, and prefer the Lucerne. But I prefer it because it's larger and roomier inside. I don't find it to really be any more luxurious or upscale. It just fits me better.
"I told her a 2 year old lower line car would be well under 20K,"
Try a Lucerne CXS with all the goodies - for under $20K in two years. The local dealer in Pasadena has a 2006 base model that he can't move for $22K. In a month, it'll drop to $18K and steadily head south.
But for a reliable car, there isn't a better choice than a 1996-1997 S-Class. The last of the older square-ish ones.
But wait - you say... it's ten years old. Yes, but it was also the last handbuilt Mercedes. You've never seen a used car this nice - and it drives and looks better than any new GM product. Off course, she should get the standard wheelbase model and the smaller, more reliable V8(as opposed to the higher HP V8 or V12). A Nice S420. Beats an Avalon or Lucerne by a mile.
$12K easily(typical dealer price). Maybe even $10K. If she wants an extended warranty, that's easy to get as well(or just pay more for repairs but save silly money over time).
I've thought about setting her up with a 6cyl late 140 or even a late 124. But I don't know a trustworthy place to have it maintained in yokelville, and there's no way I could talk her into driving at least an hour to have it maintained. The only MB I saw in her town were a couple of 4cyl 190Es! I can't see her in anything but a domestic or the blandest Japanese offerings.
Not only because of style but because B-J probably won't find any suckers to plump down high-5, 6 and 7-figures for these latest creations as they currently do for the '50 - '70 hardware. But then again...
I can see it now...
$75K for a 2005 Monte. $100K for a 2006 Impala SS. A Cobalt, a steal at $45K.
My statement would be: "How bout you pay me to take it off your hands?"
I think his auctions are going to be Viper, Corvette, Mustang (along with GT500, Shelby GT and CS versions), 300C & Magnum (along with SRT-8 versions) only, for the current domestics - the others domestic cars aren't going to make it.
Fintail, Probably your Mom has read this and decided to do her part in saving Detroit. Otherwise, why would she even consider a Malibu? I hope she isn't.
I can't imagine her looking at a Malibu...she wants something with at least a hint of luxury - leather, maybe a moonroof, etc. And it might be just a little small.
I can't recall if she has said anything about a 500...she has been mainly partial to Fords for some time. Her favorite new car was a huge white-on-white ca. 1975 T-Bird that she had til she got the Ciera...she liked it a lot, big old luxobarge, but it was driven a lot and by the early 80s was deteriorating mechanically. I think it broke a timing chain and that was it for the car.
The Camry doesn't even fit in the same size and league as the Lucerne, does it. Someone bashes it for the high price of the Northstar unit; then they bash because it has a low-priced V6 in the lower unit; then they bash because it has rebates and discounts on pricing. Which is it? Overpriced? Underpriced with the real-world pricing of the rebates and discounts?
As was mentioned, if she likes Fords the Fusion sounds good in theory. I still don't know why it has that duct tape look around the rear lights.
Maybe a Malibu. For some reason they made it go a long time between oil changes and tune ups I believe. The rentals I have driven have absolutely NO "feel of the road" and aren't what we would call fun to drive, I am probably one of the few people who think they look OK, but at least it was attempt at good taste. Pretty well equipped for the money too. One or two year old should be pretty cheap too!
The biggest problem the LaCrosse faces sits right across the showroom floor.
From what I've seen there is considerable price overlap between the LaCrosse and the Lucerne. Given that the Lucerne is roomier and (to my eyes, anyway) considerably better looking, it would appear as though the LaCrosse is facing tough in-house competition.
I would like to bash too because of this post on the Lucerne sight;
My overall experience with my 05 CXS is good except for the poor gas mileage. I average just under 21 mpg with 75% highway mileage. I have gotten just under 25 on extended trips. I haven't seen anyone bragging about their mileage. Certainly stay away from the CXS with the 3.6L engine. The 3800 is a dog, but gets around 25 mpg if you can stand the poor performance. The common complaint in this forum seems to be squeeks and rattles especially in the winter. Other than that the car is very quiet. Back seat room is marginal at best. There is talk of an 07 with a V8. With cylinder deactivation that could be a good bet. If I had it to do over I would look at the Impala SS.
In fairness, some people like their LaCrosse's. Rattles and squeaks seem to be a big problem. One guys brand new LaCrosse just died on the road and he's afraid to drive it again. I should sit in one to judge it, but in the last few years I have driven Buicks, Pontiacs, Impalas, Malibus, Stratus's, Suburban's, Taurus's and it would have to be a pretty big improvement to impress me!
As for the Camry versus the Lucerne, I've sat in them both, and prefer the Lucerne. But I prefer it because it's larger and roomier inside. I don't find it to really be any more luxurious or upscale. It just fits me better.
well, the Lucerne's carpet is plusher
and the leather is nicer
and the seats are better
and it has more wood
but it's not more luxurious? The Lucerne has as much "luxury" as Lexus ES, but you think it's equal to the Camry???
even the Lucerne door panels and head-liner are more luxo than the Camry
There's nothing "wrong" with a Camry, but there's no way you'd buy one if you really want "luxury"
Well, the main thing I remember about the Lucerne was that there was an awful lot of hard plastic in it, but at least they were getting better at disguising it! For example, the dashboard covering was all hard plastic, but it really wasn't evident unless you actually touched it, kinda like my uncle's '03 Corolla. So maybe the domestics HAVE learned something from the Japanese! :P
Overall I don't think the Lucerne's a bad car, I just don't consider it a luxury car. To me it's like a 2006 Delta 88, LeSabre or heck, even a Firedome. A nice, comfy big car, but not a luxury car.
My grandparents had a 1989 Taurus LX, which at the time was the highest trim level short of the SHO. It was a really nice car. Now that car has been gone for 13 years and my memory might be a bit fuzzy, but I'd say it had a nicer interior than any current LaCrosse.
You were right about your memory being fuzzy - the Lacrosse is nicer interior than any Taurus. Period.
Go search for some pictures.
I'm not saying the Taurus was a bad car. Just that the Lacrosse is nicer.
I never understand why people think there was less plastic in cars from the 80s. What do people think they used, instead? Stone? Certainly not more leather than today. (way more cars come with leather than ever before). More wood back then? Doubtful. More really lousy fake wood back then, that's for sure. The entire interior was plastic. The seats weren't even made of cloth, as the "cloth" was mostly plastic (as it is today, though the fabrics are far better today). If anything there is more soft (i.e. rubberized) plastic today, than back in the 80s.
Did they use more metal back then? Are you really going to choose a car because the knob for the stereo is made of metal?
Comments
I've had one for the last year, and its one of the best cars I've ever owned. Personally, I think the foreign cars are way over-rated. Bland styling, MB is on the way down since the Chrysler take-over, ford styling is just dreadful on the exterior, though very much improved on the interior. No doubt about it, the General IS back. The styling is killing everyone else.
Cadillac CTS is one of the few cars where sales continue to go UP year after year, the Solstice is red-hot, the new G6 convertible is an incredible value and very stylish, the new truck line is the most improved look for trucks in a generation. All that and now Toyota is having serious quality problems...... so much they've had to slow production. Yeah, the general is back, big time back.
GMC-Pontiac-Buick dealers merged are an awesome idea, one dealer, 22 vehicle choices.
Lutz is running the show.... Look out Japan..... its going down.
www.oldsmobile.com'
Very cool. Can you post the link for the Buick memorial site?
remember Toyota? They had to launch an entire new line (Scion) to get anyone under (with money) under 40 to buy a Toyota.
Volvo used to be stodgy. Now they are much cooler.
Mercedes used to be a symbol of quality. Now they are beset with quality woes.
what do you recommend that the mom buy? A Camry? How original.
And they were successful. Remember Geo? How well did that go?
Volvo used to be stodgy. Now they are much cooler.
Remember Saab? Are they cool yet? How's that GM SUV called the 9-7X doing? Born from jets!
images change quickly
Unfortunately for GM, perhaps not quickly enough. They haven't executed well. They're almost out of time. Good recent efforts, though maybe not enough. We should know in two years.
Ahhhh. Another one stuck in the concept that kidracers with OHCs revving at 7000 rpm for normal driving is the only motor on earth for anyone with knowledge. The 4-speed tranny is smooth and durable. Compare to your 5 and 6 speed Toyo problem transmissions with intelligence? Read the Camry Woe group here. Avalon before and Lexus and Highlander IIRC.
Oddly more and more of the Camrys here are owned by people over 60. They probably will never drive it hard enough to know there's a transmission operation problem and hesitation.
>Taurus the king of rentals.
That contramands the often recited mantra here that GM is king of rentals and they shouldn't sell to rentals and fleets. Which is it?
Comemon. This is about styling saving GM. The LaCrosse is a great step in style for GM. So anytime something good is posted about a GM we get posts from the I-hate-GM posters.
Maybe the host needs to change the name of the section or make a new group for the I-Hate-GM but I don't really know what's changed posts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Maybe the host needs to change the name of the section or make a new group for the I-Hate-GM but I don't really know what's changed posts."
You keep on comparing the GM of today to GM of the past. Rather you need to compare them to the competition of today of which they are still not up to snuff. The LaCrosse may be a step in the right direction but exactly which competing car is the LaCrosse better than when looking at the total package of pricing, equipment, warranty, style and driving dynamics?
Loser pushrods? Good God, will this argument ever end? Heck, I have both pushrod and DOHC cars. I can't tell the difference between them except I miss that little "kick in the butt" from the rush of torque from the pushrod unit when I hit the gas when driving the DOHC car. Personally, I don't want a car that revs itself to death before it gets any power. I like to see the tach go no higher than 2500 RPM during normal highway driving and get nervous if it goes over 3500 RPM when punching the accelerator. I'd be terrified of redlining it at 7000 RPM.
By the way, the average slob doesn't know whether his car is OHC, OHV, a flathead or has sleeve valves. Any guy who is convinced that OHC is better than pushrods just because some salesman told him so is truly a sheep. Personally, I don't want a car that revs itself to death before it gets any power.
Having said that, I appreciate your viewpoint that differs from mine.
But why do you think LaCrosse style is good? From outside, it's really a Taurus reborn. And, interior is still behind competition. Can you explain? First of all, most of my friends don't know what LaCrosse is. They know Century. And, they don't know LaCrosse replaces Century. Why change nameplates? To get rid of "rental car" stigma? The same holds for LeSabre/ Lucerne. Buick's nameplates are so short-lived these days. But think of Accord - it has survived decades and the survival speaks for Honda's determination. Where is GM's determination? In fact, LaCrosse recycled so much of old GM parts that nothing except the name is new. Same for Lucerne - old powertrains in a new body. The idea is to make customers think that they are getting something new when they aren't.
I recommend Maxima for fintail's mom! I can imagine how cool she'll look in Maxima when her friends are driving Camrys and Accords.
fintails Mom will make a mistake if she buys Lucerne. Because the nameplate will die even before the warranty expires!!! that will further hurt the resale value and she would be carrying the "dead car" stigma on top of "rental car" stigma.
I totally agree. Most people purchasing cars in the group I would be interested in don't know and don't care. That would include mid-sized to full-sized cars from Corolla to Camry to Accord to LaCrosse to Lucerne to 500 to...
People posting here, in most cases, are more aware of what's in the car, or at least more aware of what's been advertised about the car both overtly and covertly.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Sums up the Pushrod vs. OHC debate in this one comment. It's all in what you are used to.
I can understand that. GM has never built an engine that could hang at 7000 rpm without sounding like it would fly apart at any second. And if you like tortoise engines, shouldn't you be driving one of these?
"Dead car" stigma is a big stigma - a neighbor of mine who owns an Alero was very upset when GM stopped making Aleros and she has vowed to not buy GM again.
Saturn, Caddy are shifting to such engines. I tried GM's 3.9L V6 - it's still not good. Ecotec is also behind competition. However, I'm hearing good things about the new 3.6L V6 - and I will test-drive an Aura on a highway before I trade in my Protege for a midsize car.
Really? The LS7 seems to do pretty good at that RPM. Besides, how many cars actually redline at 7k or above? The answer is not many, OHC or not.
It's all about that driver-vehicle connection that no pushrod outside of a Corvette can deliver. And outside of the vette what other supercar uses pushrods to put the power down?
I don't suppose that could be because the Corvette's engine is designed as a sports car engine (like the S2k's engine) while the rest of them are for mainstream family cars. Would you rather have the Accord's engine in the S2k?
Oh, and besides the Corvette - Viper, Saleen, Mosler, and I'm pretty sure there are a couple others that I don't remember.
Among GM's challenges is to make better engines for mainstream vehicles, but I'll bet that they are concentrating their efforts now in making their new and existing engines more fuel efficient, because if they don't do that, the next oil price shock could kill them.
Actually, not ideal but sure. Owned a few 4-cylinder Accords in the past and drove them exactly the same way. They were very durable and never gave me an ounce of trouble. Redline on them was only 6800 so it wasn't quite the same as the S but they were equally smooth all the way to redline.
Saleen is a pushrod? Interesting, I'll admit to having little knowledge of the S7 and the Viper, yes. Forgot about that one.
Of course she should buy a Camry...a proven winner. You can't really say the recalls are a negative until Toyota fixes the problem and remember, when they ramp up production, make new models with NEW engineering and technology, there will be some glitches. But it is how they handle the glitches that will matter.....lets remember how GM handles the seals problem, mainly ignore it. Buicks are high in JD Powers surveys because they use technology they have had years to perfect.
remember Toyota? They had to launch an entire new line (Scion) to get anyone under (with money) under 40 to buy a Toyota.
This was clever marketing. They have the mature car buyers wrapped up, they just need a new line to appeal to a younger group, so they will graduate to regular Toyotas when they get older. GM buyers no longer know where they are supposed to move up to...the company is off in so many directions.
And the idea about being original? Camry is a top selling car because people like the style, dependability, and value. Is someone supposed to buy an unpopular car like a Malibu Maxx just to show they can be different?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Being hand built, the LS7 might get enough special attention to be buttoned up pretty well for a pushrod. The C6Rs in ALMS do seem to be noisier than the Aston Martins, though. Nascar is pretty much the pinnacle of high-rpm pushrod development, and those engines have a nasty rasp to them. By contrast, the Honda F20C hums nicely all the way to 9000 rpm (the VTEC just makes it louder) and the Nissan RB20 is almost melodic on its way to 8000 rpm.
Besides, how many cars actually redline at 7k or above?
Piles of Hondas and Nissans built in the last two decades, plus some Mazdas and a few Toyotas and Mitsubishis. The pickings are rather slim on the "domestic" side.
Now there's a car for the middle America car buyer. We can replace all minivans, SUVs, and mid-sized and full-sized cars with S2000s. Perfect solution to everyone's engine needs?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But, the argument was not that an S2000 is an ideal form of transport. I'm just stating that there is no reason to fear a high strung motor, high RPM motor(as Lemko stated) if it designed and built for such a purpose.
Hope not. Buick had some better styles in last 10 years that were scrapped. Except for oft mentioned rear end, the Lucerne is a decently styled car.
Also, think that LaCrosse is built in Canada. Potential lookers/buyers of LaCrosse should alternatively consider Camry or Accord to keep jobs in the US.
And in Japan?
Just read dealers are asking for more Camrys to be imported from Japan since supply here slowed down (due to recalls and problems?).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I do like the Audi interior, generally, more than the Lucerne. I am not saying the Lucerne is perfect.
I am guessing a high % of the anti-GM folks here have simply not touched a GM vehicle in real life.
At least test drive a car before bashing it. It should be a prerequisite to posting here. I am soooo tired of you folks that blow smoke instead of facts.
and no Taurus was ever as nice as the LaCrosse. What is it that you guys smoke to make you think this way?
My mother is another person turned off GM in the 80s. She had a Ciera back then...very plush and relatively smooth and economical, but it was slapped together like a Russian car from the same period. Within a couple of years the body hardware was falling apart, and it was creaky and squeaky. The early Taurus that replaced it seemed 100 years more advanced. So for 20 years since, those are what she has driven. She is also one who views big Toyotas as almost domestic cars...she's older but not clueless, and knows where they are made.
Oh, and I read that assembly quality on Lucernes is inconsistent...the one I saw anyway looked nicely put together, better gaps and materials than what it replaces for sure.
Some GM styling is killing everyone - as in killing their eyes. Every time I see a Rendezvous I feel sick.
My grandparents had a 1989 Taurus LX, which at the time was the highest trim level short of the SHO. It was a really nice car. Now that car has been gone for 13 years and my memory might be a bit fuzzy, but I'd say it had a nicer interior than any current LaCrosse.
It's hard to directly compare your typical late 80's car to a modern car though, because they they tended to use less hard plastic back then. They often used thicker carpeting, plusher fabrics, and kept the vinyl/hard plastic to a minimum, at least on the nicer cars.
That '89 LX got replaced by a 1994 Taurus GL though, and it wasn't nearly as nice.
As for the Camry versus the Lucerne, I've sat in them both, and prefer the Lucerne. But I prefer it because it's larger and roomier inside. I don't find it to really be any more luxurious or upscale. It just fits me better.
Try a Lucerne CXS with all the goodies - for under $20K in two years. The local dealer in Pasadena has a 2006 base model that he can't move for $22K. In a month, it'll drop to $18K and steadily head south.
But for a reliable car, there isn't a better choice than a 1996-1997 S-Class. The last of the older square-ish ones.
But wait - you say... it's ten years old. Yes, but it was also the last handbuilt Mercedes. You've never seen a used car this nice - and it drives and looks better than any new GM product. Off course, she should get the standard wheelbase model and the smaller, more reliable V8(as opposed to the higher HP V8 or V12). A Nice S420. Beats an Avalon or Lucerne by a mile.
$12K easily(typical dealer price). Maybe even $10K. If she wants an extended warranty, that's easy to get as well(or just pay more for repairs but save silly money over time).
Rendezvous, Terraza, a copy of TrailBlazer, Taurus-like LaCrosse, Great Grand Pa styled Lucerne... Buick's lineup is really horrible.
Caddys and Corvette look good. Everything else is a mess. As far as styling goes, GM has serious problems.
I can see it now...
$75K for a 2005 Monte. $100K for a 2006 Impala SS. A Cobalt, a steal at $45K.
My statement would be: "How bout you pay me to take it off your hands?"
I think his auctions are going to be Viper, Corvette, Mustang (along with GT500, Shelby GT and CS versions), 300C & Magnum (along with SRT-8 versions) only, for the current domestics - the others domestic cars aren't going to make it.
Fintail, Probably your Mom has read this and decided to do her part in saving Detroit. Otherwise, why would she even consider a Malibu? I hope she isn't.
I can't recall if she has said anything about a 500...she has been mainly partial to Fords for some time. Her favorite new car was a huge white-on-white ca. 1975 T-Bird that she had til she got the Ciera...she liked it a lot, big old luxobarge, but it was driven a lot and by the early 80s was deteriorating mechanically. I think it broke a timing chain and that was it for the car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As was mentioned, if she likes Fords the Fusion sounds good in theory. I still don't know why it has that duct tape look around the rear lights.
Maybe a Malibu. For some reason they made it go a long time between oil changes and tune ups I believe. The rentals I have driven have absolutely NO "feel of the road" and aren't what we would call fun to drive, I am probably one of the few people who think they look OK, but at least it was attempt at good taste. Pretty well equipped for the money too. One or two year old should be pretty cheap too!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
What Lucerne site? The discussion has to be about laCrosse since there's a 3.6 involved.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
From what I've seen there is considerable price overlap between the LaCrosse and the Lucerne. Given that the Lucerne is roomier and (to my eyes, anyway) considerably better looking, it would appear as though the LaCrosse is facing tough in-house competition.
My overall experience with my 05 CXS is good except for the poor gas mileage. I average just under 21 mpg with 75% highway mileage. I have gotten just under 25 on extended trips. I haven't seen anyone bragging about their mileage. Certainly stay away from the CXS with the 3.6L engine. The 3800 is a dog, but gets around 25 mpg if you can stand the poor performance. The common complaint in this forum seems to be squeeks and rattles especially in the winter. Other than that the car is very quiet. Back seat room is marginal at best. There is talk of an 07 with a V8. With cylinder deactivation that could be a good bet. If I had it to do over I would look at the Impala SS.
In fairness, some people like their LaCrosse's. Rattles and squeaks seem to be a big problem. One guys brand new LaCrosse just died on the road and he's afraid to drive it again.
I should sit in one to judge it, but in the last few years I have driven Buicks, Pontiacs, Impalas, Malibus, Stratus's, Suburban's, Taurus's and it would have to be a pretty big improvement to impress me!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
well, the Lucerne's carpet is plusher
and the leather is nicer
and the seats are better
and it has more wood
but it's not more luxurious? The Lucerne has as much "luxury" as Lexus ES, but you think it's equal to the Camry???
even the Lucerne door panels and head-liner are more luxo than the Camry
There's nothing "wrong" with a Camry, but there's no way you'd buy one if you really want "luxury"
How can u expect us to take your posts seriously when you talk about a car that isn't even in the future lineup???
and I bet you never even drove a Rendezvous
god, why do we have to put up with such nonsense?
Can we request a bare minimum qualification level to post here? How about "I want comment on a vehicle UNLESS I'VE ACTUALLY DRIVEN ONE"
That would be a refreshing approach, wouldn't it?
You constantly comment on the Camry; have you DRIVEN an '07 Camry?
Overall I don't think the Lucerne's a bad car, I just don't consider it a luxury car. To me it's like a 2006 Delta 88, LeSabre or heck, even a Firedome. A nice, comfy big car, but not a luxury car.
You were right about your memory being fuzzy - the Lacrosse is nicer interior than any Taurus. Period.
Go search for some pictures.
I'm not saying the Taurus was a bad car. Just that the Lacrosse is nicer.
I never understand why people think there was less plastic in cars from the 80s. What do people think they used, instead? Stone? Certainly not more leather than today. (way more cars come with leather than ever before). More wood back then? Doubtful. More really lousy fake wood back then, that's for sure. The entire interior was plastic. The seats weren't even made of cloth, as the "cloth" was mostly plastic (as it is today, though the fabrics are far better today). If anything there is more soft (i.e. rubberized) plastic today, than back in the 80s.
Did they use more metal back then? Are you really going to choose a car because the knob for the stereo is made of metal?