General Motors discussions

andre1969

Lemko recently bought an '88 Park Avenue for a winter beater, so he may soon know the (dis)pleasure of owning that type of car! :P

FWIW, my ex-wife's mother had an '87 LeSabre, and AFAIK never had any transmisison problems. She bought the car new and I know took it to well over 100,000 miles the last time I talked to her. She wasn't so great about maintaining it either.

carlisimo

"Yeah...it seems like some people can't let go of the Daewoo=junk train of thought."

That includes Suzuki dealers. The rebadged Daewoos are earning much lower reliability scores than the Japanese Suzukis, and hurting Suzuki's name.

In Japan, Suzuki is #4. They make reliable funky cars, though most of them are kei-cars (600cc minicars). The funkiness is part of why American Suzuki dealers get Daewoos... the Aerio is too weird for most buyers... but I see no excuse to not bring over the new Swift. It's much better than the old one (the Geo Metro), and better than the Aveo.

As for those Daewoos, they're finally cleaning up the styling. Yeah, they were designed by a famous Italian guy (who hasn't done anything interesting with these opportunities), but in these situations the manufacturer designs its own grille (and sometimes other details like the lights). And that 3-section grille was just bad.

62vetteefp

last night and there was a gray Pontiac Solstice on display. There were about ten young guys looking at this car and they all seemed impressed. Maybe Pontiac has a hit.

Ya think?

62vetteefp

link title

sensai

Actually the reason that pushrod engines run out of breath at high speeds is because they only have one intake and one exhaust valve. Over head cam engines usually have more than one intake and one exhaust valve. The problem of the pushrod is that it does add mass to the valve train, and mass has inetia, so there is resistance to very high speed performance. An OHC engine can reduce the valve train to having the cam operate the valve directly (I think, DOHC), which means that the limiting high speed is much higher, everything being equal in the two designs.

2 valves has nothing to do with running out of breath. Hence why the LS7 makes max horsepower close to 7000 rpms, and Nascar engines are up around 9000 rpms. How well a car breaths is more a function of head design and cam profile than the number of valves.

sls002

I did say all things being equal. However, my understanding of the advantage of two intake vs one intake valve is that the area of two valves is larger than one big valve can be. This increases the air flow through the valve for a given valve lift. Intake tuning is also important too.

Consider GM's V6 engines, the 3.5, 3.9 pushrods vs the 3.6 DOHC. Torque is falling off rapidly above 5000 RPMs in the pushrods while the 3.6 torque holds up to nearly 6000 RPMs. With VVT in the pushrod engines peak horsepower is around 6000 in both sets of engines.

carlisimo

Oh gods, not the pushrod thing again. Let's just sum it up as, we're worried about the Enclave having a crappy base engine.

==

And oh gods, not the "my car didn't die" thing again too. A 5% (one in twenty) failure rate qualifies as frighteningly unreliable. The odds are still good that your particular car will be okay. Guess what, it's still an unreliable design.

If a car has a failure rate of more than 50%, then you can come here and say "well mine ran fine" and we'll all be impressed.

fintail

I hope it becomes a competition on who can come first - Challenger or Camaro. I hope both make it to production.

chuck1959

I read somewhere...maybe it was in here....that the average stand alone Buick dealer sells on average 4-6 cars a month :confuse: Is that true? How can they stay in business? That must the reason GM wants to group Pontiac Buick GMC dealers?

chuck1959

Almost sound like 1964!! LOL Except talking about the first Mustang and the first Barracuda! I don't remember who was there first. I am sure someone in here will tell me.

carlisimo

Ooh, finally a modern-looking interpretation of the muscle car. It's my favorite of the three. I wish I could get the looks on a smaller car though.

logic1

I hope the bulging hood isnot on every model.

Otherwise, this is very well done.

kodename

The new concept Camaro looks more like a one-off of the 1970 Challenger. The new concept Dodge Challenger looks just like a 1970 Dodge Challenger! Can GM make it with so called heritige styling by copying a competitors heritige? They sure must think so. That petite little hood "scoop" looks just as stupid and Barbie-esque here as it does on the Hi-Perf. Corvette. If Chrysler was to bring back Plymouth, this Camaro concept would make the Perfect updated Barracuda! Just look at the lines!! It's more Plymouth than Chevy. Is this the best Bob Lutz could come up with? Bill C.

andre1969

The Barracuda actually beat the Mustang to the market, by something like several weeks or maybe two months, but the Mustang was in development for much longer. Chrysler just threw the '64 Barracuda hastily in order to bring it to market ahead of the Mustang. They weren't bad cars though...the base 225 slant six would easily walk those tiny 170 and 200 CID 6-cylinders the Mustang used, and the 273-4bbl was a force to be reckoned with. Still, they were basically facelifted Valiants with funky rear windows.

As for the new Camaro concept looking like a Challenger ripoff, that's actually somewhat appropriate, because the original 1970 Challenger and Barracuda were quite similar to the '67-69 Camaro/Firebird in style and proportioning...just applied to a midsized car instead of a compact like most ponycars. When I was a kid I used to mistake the Mopars for Camaros all the time.

In fact, in the movie "Vanishing Point", a '68 Camaro stands in for the Challenger at the end when it crashes into the bulldozers.

62vetteefp

I read somewhere...maybe it was in here....that the average stand alone Buick dealer sells on average 4-6 cars a month Is that true? How can they stay in business? That must the reason GM wants to group Pontiac Buick GMC dealers?

Buick sold about 200,000 vehicles last year. 200000/6=33,000 dealers. NOT!

There are maybe 3000 dealers so that would be 66 per dealership. Now almost all Buick dealers are dualed with at least one other divisions and many are small time small city ones that have all divisions and sell only a few buicks.

sls002

my old Buick dealer, a smallish dealer, sold about 250 new Buicks annually, plus a thousand used cars. That is about 20 new cars per month plus used cars. Winter was usually very slow.

kodename

YES , That is absolutly true in the last several months of 2005 , that's what the average Buick dealer was selling in new vehicles.(one per week , average) If your a dealer , how come your not screaming for the heads of GM management? Buicks new corporate face (grill) is a unapealing mess.aside from the AARP crowd,(even AARP'ers are moving away from Buick) Buick has no flair, no style, and no reason to pick it over the comparable Chevy. Buick spokesperson Tiger Woods knows golf, but he don't know jack about cars. (Just cash the checks Tiger)Even the newest Buicks prove that if you slap some chrome on a pig , it's still a pig.Bill C.

sls002

have made a mess. should use a link.

62vetteefp

That concept looks like a refreshed '69 camaro. Scoop looks like the ZL1's (right RPO?) It is fantastic looking.

GM had 150 camaro club members at the event and some were crying and cannot wait to get one.

This car is kick a** and thats it.

kodename

Oh, Mr.Vette.If wishfull thinking could only make it so. I know you want GM to hit a home run so bad you can taste it. Remember GM has a history , and a part of that history is promising concepts that fall miles short of expectation. Rub your eyes and look again. Bill C.

sls002

it is much better than the current Aussie GTO.

62vetteefp

I know but when I tried to edit it the edmunds banner was covering up the edit button

jonpnj

Absolutely stunning. Any chance of it coming to market??

62vetteefp

It's almost here.

chuck1959

I never really believed Tigers Woods own a Buick. Sure he may drive but that probably only because it's free! Heck if I was in his position I'd cash those checks and drive a Buick every once in awhile too!

fintail

I think cars like the Challenger and Camaro will really improve some perception about domestics. People can debate the merits of retro styling all day long, but these cars do show that these domestics haven't rolled over and died yet. They will turn heads and create discussion.

bumpy

are way too big, so they'll get whacked shortly.

I don't like the hooded treatment for the headlights and grill, and an explicity retro design like that really needs something better than the cheesy rental-special plastic-brass bowtie logo that goes on every other Chevy. The interior is hideous, but not cheap-looking.

chuck1959

I hope the bulging hood is not on every model.

Otherwise, this is very well done.

I agree, lets just hope GM will not screw it with last minute changes! Lets hope the WILL revive the Z28 name and hope they WILL NOT use Berlineta. I never understood that name!

PF_Flyer

I had to remove those posts with the Camaro images because the size of the images fouled up the right margins of the message area.

If you want to share images wider than 500 pixels, PLEASE just type the URL of the image into your post. That way it will display as a link, others will be able to click on the link and view the image in all its full sized glory, and we avoid the margin issue.

Thanks for your help on this!

sls002

The interior design is unlikely to make production. The intruments located on the console are not in a good location for one thing. There is no obvious parking brake either.

sls002

http://automobilemag.com/auto_shows/naias_2006/0601_chevrolet_camaro_concept/

This is more of interior.

andre1969

it almost looks like they're trying too hard to go retro. For instance, I remember the '67-69 Camaros having the two big round gauges in the dash, and then if you got optional gauges they stuck them down on the console as an afterthought. I don't remember the dash design curving and blending into the doors like that, though. That's more of a 50's fetish than a late 60's. Late 60's dashes were usually big, squared-off things that were flat across the top, and then sloped away from the occupants. Just for reference, here's a 1967 Camaro dash

62vetteefp

http://gmtv.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=247201

gtee

Buick sold about 200,000 vehicles last year. 200000/6=33,000 dealers. NOT!

There are maybe 3000 dealers so that would be 66 per dealership. Now almost all Buick dealers are dueled with at least one other divisions and many are small time small city ones that have all divisions and sell only a few buicks.

Just want to correct your math a little:

There are maybe 3000 dealers so that would be 66 CARS per dealership PER YEAR. You calculated the number of cars sold per year.

The Original post said 4-6 cars per month. This means that 66 car per year / 12 month per year = 5.5 cars per month.

SO yes some dealers were only selling one car per week. Nice Going Buick!!!!! I am surprised that they can stay in buissness at these levels.

gtee

Me Too, If Buick would pay me a handsome sum of money, I also would drive a Buick. I would definitely not drive a Buick if I had to pay money for it

stshepard

First point. I'm mostly talking about the US market, (no offence, it's just pretty hard for someone from the US to sample any of the GM products from overseas)

Second Point. Although I can't be sure, I just don't agree that GM didn't force the Daewoo cars on the US Suzuki dealers, if the Daewoo cars were really so well appreciated by Suzuki then they would probably be selling them In Japan as well as here in the US, Here are some facts I've discovered from the internet, The AVEO as we know it here in the US is sold as the Suzuki Swift and the Pontiac Wave in Canada, And the "Suzuki" Verona is a Chevrolet in Canada, My point here is that GM is the big dog in the GM/Suzuki/Daewoo family and I believe they are calling the shots in the US market.

Third Point, I won't completely disagree with you about GV and the Equinox, I can't really believe that anyone would seriously shop the GV against the Equinox, the two are just to different in both size and intended audience.

Fourth Point, I'll agree that the new Grand Vitara was probably expensive to design and build but again, based upon my research, it is not a US only vehicle and appears to have been introduced all over the world at about the same time, Also based upon how the New GV turned out, it looks like Suzuki was really going after the Honda CRV, and some non-US market vehicles with the Grand Vitara. The Grand Vitara is a great example of what I believe has taken place with the Swift. I feel that the Swift was most likely designed with US regulation in mind (which would help the keep the US regulation cost to a minimum) and just hasn't been introduced here for other "business" reasons.

Final Point. I hope you are right and the Swift is headed to the US, I personally think corporate fear is really what is keeping the Swift out of the US, and I guess I can't blame anyone for that.

jimlockey

If GM is going to sell me they better give a lot more thought to MPG and don't let up on Safety.

m1miata

Hey, it looks pretty good, just like the Dodge Challenger. All they need to do is to make it look new, while holding to the hints of retro 1st gen. The Camaro and Challenger both look promising indeed. A Challenger with the 3.5V6 for around $21K would sell, as would the Camaro with the 3.6V6 like the CTS has. Yeah, even the old 3.8 200HP V6 in the Camaro would still be OK, if the car sold for say $19K. I think it best to retire that engine though. Ford has a V6 out of the SUV I think it is. Poor gas mileage, in my view and not all that refined. No problem coming up with V8s at both GM and DCX, but you always wonder if they make the best choice for the V6. Still would like to see a good inline 6, but that may never be. RWD, with a modern transmission and engine, should be a winner, and send Ford back to the drawing board. Let the Pony wars begin. I may add, thank Ford for holding to the RWD and the Pony car though the years. I am still impressed with the overall value of the 2004 Mustang.

:shades: Loren

nippononly

The reason is simple: GM calls the shots. Right now, the cheapest way for GM to put a subcompact on the market in the U.S. under a GM brand is to use GMDAT cars, specifically the (Kalos?) sold here as the Aveo.

No way is GM going to let Suzuki compete in its own pool by bringing what I am sure is a FAR BETTER Swift to America.

62vetteefp

Whoops!

m1miata

If GM is going to sell me they better give a lot more thought to MPG and don't let up on Safety.
~~ end quote ~~

GM seems to always be a leader in V6 cars for MPG. Actually, the V8's do OK. In four cylinder cars, the best of breed is Honda, then Toyota and all the rest. ( IMHO ) The least of my worries with GM is gas mileage.

As for safety, it is hard to be involved in an accident when the car is always in the garage being fixed....... just kidding. Most GM do fine in crash tests. If I recall right, the CTS was not too stellar though - not sure why.

Loren

chuck1959

IMO you can never go TOO retro! LOL Personally I like it. I think the mix of 50's 60's and a little "current" is cool! Is that gauges I see on the console in front of the shifter? Now that's way cool!

Hey GM..Ford..Chrsyler too.....how about some "RETRO" pricing!

gtee

I think that the low number of cars sold at each Buick dealership brings up another major problem for GM. The quality of average GM dealership is very low. How is Buick supposed to be 'American Lexus' when they are sold in the same dealership with Pontiacs and Isuzus. I remember there was a very nice Buick dealership close to my house in the early 90's. That space was converted to a BMW dealership and Buick dealership was combined with a old Pontiac and Isuzu dealership.

So now there is a nice looking BMW dealership and an old and tired looking Buick dealership down the road. If they only sell 1 car per week, they just don't have the money to fix up the Buick dealership. Now as customer you walk into a brand new Lexus or BMW dealership or a tired old Buick one. Where do your thing better salesmen work? Where do you think you get better service?

Buying a luxury car is more then just the 'car'. Its the whole buying and service experience that counts. The look of the dealership adds value to the brand. I would say look of average Buick dealership and dealing with Bob-Square pants Buick salesman only subtracts from the value of the brand.

ab348

Yeah, the interior drawings leave me cold -- it almost reminds me if a '60s British car for some reason. Not that the '60s Camaro dash was all that great either. The exterior design isn't bad, although I think the greenhouse is way too squat and would be like driving a tank. The taillights leave me cold also. But whatever... it's certainly an attention getter. Then again, so was the SSR at first, and how many of them do you see?

I just wonder how long this retromobile fad will last. Could be that when GM gets the thing into production, the fad will be over.

fordforme

Funny- I never thought Ricardo Montalbon (sp) drove a Cordoba with carynthian leather

harrychezt

here's a link to initial, and long term drives, one of Suzuki Grand Vitara, and one of Reno
(among other vehicles).
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/longterm/
Gives Reno a thumbs-up, in general, Above Avg, Minus MPG is about 23-24. I test drove a Reno. I liked it, except for the slow 0-45MPH(after 45, it kept up with traffic ok).
ang for not being a sporty car(like the I-4 Eclipse, that gets 29MPH hwy, and is about 800 lbs heavier)had bad MPG , overall.
If you look at future Vehicles, it says something of a Reno (sporty edition) being added. I think it is for 2007.
Also read, besides Aveo getting tweaked(in everything but power) for later this year, the Forena line up may get a little tweaking.

Another bad thing about Suzuki: Dealerships.
Aroudn dayton Ohio, there are about 3. Out of 3, one is situated in a same building as Motor Homes!
And they have maybe 10 cars, and never a Reno.
The other, well, it is on a lot , in-between Honda and Nissan! They used to have enough Suzuki's on the lot to see at least one or two of every model. Now?
They had No models on the lot, just Suzuki on the sign, and maybe 3 vehicles indoors.
The only one who had(now they don't) any Reno's to test, had maybe 25 vehicles, new, on the whole lot!
They had more used cars for sale!!!!
They share a lot with Mitsubishi, which is bascially a new Eclipse parking lot right now.

I went by 3 times recently, and No Reno's, or no more than 12 new vehicles total at Suzuki!

How are places like this even allowed to see Suzuki's?

On the other hand, in Columbus, they ave a ton of dealerships, and if you look on their websites, they have 35-50 vehicles on the lot.

It's crazy how they "run' these dealerships in S.W. Ohio.

Anyhow, they tweak the Reno, add a little more HP, or something , to at least get to 60 in say 9seconds(versus rumored 10.9 seconds) and add maybe (or keep it) to 30 MPG hwy.... could be in our driveway next time. PS: Need to tweak the fornt end. ihad seen a blue one in town, adn it looked good, but bland up front.

And, yes, sales were over 82,000, record for Suzuki.
one site said 81,121 or something, the other said 82,121, give or take a few units.

62vetteefp

While the car is retro it stands on it's own in beauty. IF there is a market for pony type cars it will sell.

imidazol97

You always say the same things when anything positive is said about GM. Other people can have their opinion just like you can have yours. I grow weary of anything positive being challenged by a negative comeback. Not all GMs are bad; I've had darned good ones through the years. Better than some friends' with Acuras and Hondas. But they accept that just as I accept my GM.

kodename

I just wonder how long this retromobile fad will last. Could be that when GM gets the thing into production, the fad will be over.
reply:
Good Point. The retro's are apealing to a limited market. Like the SUV craze,everybody jumps in and the market starts to move elsewhere.There's only so many people who want a rear drive pony car with a V8 and a useless back seat.
RWD with electronic traction control is here to stay. FWD , however is not going away. Soon enough GM will flood the market with too many car based SUV's since that's a hot market now.If the 300/Charger market shows any growth at all in 06, watch for GM to hit the show citcut next year with a concept RWD full size Impala. It's sad to see GM swagger and pontificate over their versions of "The latest thing" when you can go to almost any other manufacturers display and see the real future right in front of you. Between the lines GM seems to be saying we will succeed and be saved by becoming a niche market player. They have for all general purposes given up the bread and butter portion of the car bizz. Checker built Taxi cabs for years and sold only a handfull of cars to the general public. Now it's GM's turn. They'll make rental and niche cars , and sell a handful to the public. Bill C.

jlawrence01

One objection that I have to the smaller franchises like Suzuki is their dealer network. If you live in Chicago and your breaks down, you have a few miles to tow your vehicle. On the other hand, if the same car breaks down in Carbondale, IL(or Findlay, OH), how close is the nearest dealership? If it is at an independent shop, how long will it take you to get parts so that you are back on the road.

To keep with the topic, what does Suzuki offer that can't be found elsewhere? Nothing that I have seen.