The new CTS offers everything the TL offers and then some
How do you know? Have you drive it yet?
TL is going for around $34K fully loaded w/navi now and the sportier TL-S is at $36.5K w/navi. Even the current CTS couldn't beat the TL in the "value" department so I strongly doubt that the new and improved 2008 will.
The G8 which will be unveiled next week will also be a direct competitor for the TL
The G8 will NOT be a direct competitor for the TL because last time I checked, Pontiac isn't a luxury brand yet. Performance wise it could probably run with TL or even better but I have NO DOUBT the G8's interior won't be as refine as the TL's. As matter of fact, it won't even be close.
I love factual info. How do you know this? Got a link?
That's okay, I have faith in Pontiac with their previous track record to come up with not-so-desired interior. We can revisit this topic when the G8 is officially introduced.
Just curious, do you think G8's interior will be better than CTS's? If not, then why would one expect that it'll be at the same level as TL's. To me, the new CTS's interior is neck to neck with TL's (at least from the pictures that is). In case you didn't quiet get the point...
The new CTS offers everything the TL offers and then some. The G8 which will be unveiled next week will also be a direct competitor for the TL although it will offer much more power.
We will find out about 08 CTS and new G8 when we can look at, sit in, touch and test drive them and see for ourselves. Guess that some present Acura owners would check out CTS, don't think that too many would consider a Pontiac.
GM and Pontiac were leaders in 60's but squandered away 70's through 90's. We can only imagine what GM might have accomplished if it had an "engineering" and "excellence" mindset over those last 3 decades.
TL is going for around $34K fully loaded w/navi now and the sportier TL-S is at $36.5K w/navi. Even the current CTS couldn't beat the TL in the "value" department so I strongly doubt that the new and improved 2008 will.
And you can get a fully loaded CTS for that with incentives
The G8 will NOT be a direct competitor for the TL because last time I checked, Pontiac isn't a luxury brand yet. Performance wise it could probably run with TL or even better but I have NO DOUBT the G8's interior won't be as refine as the TL's. As matter of fact, it won't even be close.
Is Acura a legit luxury car ???? I believe the Pontiac brand has about as much luxury credibility as the Acura brand. Acura's have always been perceived as sporty with with bells and whistles. Pontiac might not have as many bells but it sure had a lot of whistles. The G8, will be packed full of of gadgets. I have NO DOUBT the G8's interior will be better than the TL's. Look at em' in Auastralia. What you basically see over their is pretty much what you will be getting over here and based on that the G8 will have a better interior than the current TL. The 09' TL, of course could have a better one.
Rocky
P.S. I guarantee the TL and G8 will be cross shopped.
Just curious, do you think G8's interior will be better than CTS's? If not, then why would one expect that it'll be at the same level as TL's. To me, the new CTS's interior is neck to neck with TL's (at least from the pictures that is).
Dude, are you serious ????? :surprise: The current TL isn't in the same league. The difference is the new CTS uses real materials instead of Faux wood, and Faux carbon fiber and cheap soft aluminum while looked good it wasn't very high quality and you had to be xtra careful not to dent it. The wood looked so awful on the tan leather I had to get the ebony so I could get the much better looking faux carbon fiber. The other flaw was the plastic door sill that would scuff very easily. The editors from several car mags said their 04' TL long-term tester aged prematurely. If you don't believe me go look at the long term test article from Motor Trend. I'm sure you will be able to fin it on the net louiswei.
Alright....A unbiased person would cross shop them in the ELLPS. They would also pick the G8, because it's superior to anything the foreign car company's offer.
The G8 will NOT be a direct competitor for the TL because last time I checked, Pontiac isn't a luxury brand yet.
The G8 will not be a competitor for the TL because the G8 is in a whole different size category. Indications are that the G8 is pretty much a Commodore SS, which has a nicer interior than just about anything GM sells here. The SS-V has the Rockyesque gadgetology, but I believe we're not getting that one. Hopefully the Holden interior will make it over here intact, but the fact that the Detroit goons were allowed to molest the sheet metal is not a good sign.
I have been in the TL and the new CTS and the CTS is nicer in my opinion. The vinyl with real threads is quite nice. We have a new SRX and that interior is great except the driver side knee bolster is not soft. We were unhappy about that. But everything else is pretty top notch.
Will the G8 be better? I thought you had info on how it is in Austrailian form since it looks like it might be the same interior? Just thought you knew.
xrunner2, I am with you on this one. I am laughing so hard that my cube-mate was asking me what joke I was reading and want me to forward it to him.
you: That's okay, I have faith in Pontiac with their previous track record to come up with not-so-desired interior.
Well the GTO's interior received lots of compliments for quality. Why do you keep your head in the sand ????
Go look at the Holden Commodore's features and tell me they aren't on par with the current TL ??? The G8' according to Motor Trend might get Delphi's MRC *magneride
Have questions for both of you concerning "Badge Engineering". What do you guys consider badge engineering and what does it take to elevate a vehicle out of that status?
You both admit that GM only has a few vehicles left that can be considered badge engineered, Torrent/Equinox and Cobalt/G5, the pickups, Tahoe/Denali, Colorado/Canyon, Lucerne/DTS, Aura/Malibu/G6 (seems a little more than a few to me); and you both made comments that will change in the future. But with the new crossovers, couldn't they be considered badge-engineered? The Saturns are really Opels, the Ponchos are going to be Holdens (along with Impala, possibly a Buford). Also what of the current crop of vehicles: so-called minivan, TB/Envoy, Impala/MC...
Yes, they may be going away but they have to be considered do they not?
Not trying to stir the pot but just wondering what your thoughts are on the subject. No personal attacks or snide remarks please, just straight answers, thank you.
If it really is the SS it is pretty sharp. It does look like the G8 front fascia has that huge lower opening though. Impossible to tell what kind of interior materials are used by looking at the pictures (but someone will) but looks nice.
As far as it being the SS only that could be true since the volume will supposedly be kept pretty low. There was a comment somewhere that price would be well under $30k but I really doubt that.
Okay, and you are telling me that G8's interior is going to be better than TL's based on those pictures?
Okay, whatever works for you man...
Are you putting words in my mouth for a reason?? Here is what I said.
If it really is the SS it is pretty sharp. It does look like the G8 front fascia has that huge lower opening though. Impossible to tell what kind of interior materials are used by looking at the pictures (but someone will) but looks nice.
I stated very factually I DID not know how good the interior will be. Why would you say what you did?
Have you driven a 3.6L CTS? The CTS can out handle,turn and outbreak a TL.
According to test "data" of Edmunds, 04 TL outperforms recent CTS in slalom. TL does 67.5 MPH, CTS does 61 MPH. Wonder if CTS could even beat Camry here. No test data on 07 Type S TL, but subjective test by Edmunds says it is better than 04-06. Edmunds shows better braking for TL over CTS.
Edmunds also said that TL goes through cones (slalom) just as quickly as a 3 series "in spite" of it being a front driver. So, where does CTS RWD advantage show over FWD TL? Maybe, Cadillac should have FWD CTS and try to emulate TL.
I could have been mistaken someone else with you. Somebody earlier stated that the G8's interior will NO DOUBT be better than TL's. If that wasn't you then please forgive my previous post.
It was me louiswei based on looking at both the current Commodore and TL. I've sat in a GTO, and it's a better interior than my former TL, and is why I almost bought one.
Rocky
P.S. bumpy, Motor Trend said the SSV was coming over here. I have not heard just the SS was going to be the only car available because that would make no sense.
A race car? A lux small car? this is a Chevy and needs to stay inexpensive and good transportation for those who want an inexpensive small car. Let Pontiac go after those who care about RWD or AWD. Keep the Chevy price down. Yes improve what you said but keep it affordable. That is what Chevy is for.
Based upon that branding strategy, I've always wondered why the Corvette is a Chevy rather than a Pontiac.
Wow, that is a tough one to answer, as it would mean different things to us all. It would be a degree of thing. All manufactures must use shared platforms to cut down on costs. But the cars which are differing in their nature are truly not simply a badged engineered car. The Nissan Z is different enough when compared to a G35. The Lucerne and DTS are far enough apart as to not being a same car. Now the Cobalt and G5 are so much alike, they could be considered only as a badged engineered car. That said, if the Pontiac used a different quality interior, or steering say, one could argue the point and consider it a different car. I should say different enough? The Saturn Aura, as I understand is off the same platform as G6 and Opels, but it is not the same car as the European model. I could be wrong. My understanding is that the Astra hatchback model is to be the same as the Euro model Opel. Only a guess, but I think it could play out as more hip and popular with the youth in America than the Cobalt, though it seems like GM has put effort into promoting Cobalt tuning and such. Perhaps both will do better as more attention goes to GM products.
I am thinking true badged engineered may be Cobalt to G5 in this era, and a worse case scenario in the past was Cavalier to Cimmeron. Those days are mostly gone. Not sure why the G5 was given to Pontiac, but the obvious answer must be that it was a quick fix to shore up Pontiac dealership sales. No big deal. The Aura, New Malibu and G6 will be different enough. Can't say the only difference is say a bumper and badge. Actually is a good thing. Gives the customer different handling cars, a choice in dealerships, different looks, and handling, maybe different qualities of interiors while still riding on the same platform. The New Malibu interior is vary different than the rest. And I may add it looks, from pics, to be soooooo much better than these hard plastic looks now, like the Charger and Mustang have. -Loren
...... oh no! And considering the pricing, it could also be sold thru. Cadillac. Ahhh, but the Corvette will always be a Chevy. WWIII would happen before they changed Corvette to Pontiac. I should have said, that would be the start of WWIII
Pontiac was / is the sporty line of GM. Perhaps there is some way to merge it with Saturn. OK, maybe not. Big and sporty, will be filled by the Impala SS won't it? Pontiac dealers get their sporty large car too? Is there room for all these divisions? Merge Pontiac with Buick? -Loren
GM Only has a few badge engineered vehicles left. The pickups, the Tahoe/Yukon, equinox/torrent, G5/Cobalt and colorado/canyon.
What about Solstice/Sky? Those are certainly as similar as Camry/Avalon. The Toyo twins at least have different wheelbases.
There is a lot of component sharing in Toyotas, just as much as you find in GM vehicles. At one time Toyota used the same four spoke steering wheel on almost all their vehicles from the Corolla to the LS400.
I don't know why component sharing is being discussed with badge engineering. Any car company would be smart to reuse good components between vehicles. Not the same as badge engineering.
I bet you are interested in what the G8 looks like ?????
I will say it (G8) will be a ELPS killer that will go after the TL, G35, Charger, Mazdaspeed6, Subaru Legacy Spec. B, Vinyl lined base 335i, etc. The 08' CTS, will go after the leather lined 335i, IS 350, Audi S4, Mercedes C class, etc.....
That has been asked since the 60's. Lots of stories there.
If GM had to do it over again today they would probably make it a Pontiac but that would be over Chevyes dead body today.
But the thinking (at least to make some sense) is that the Corvette IS an affordable car in its own right. For what you get the Corvette always gets kudos as an affordable sports car. Look at Caddilac for an unaffordable one! Chevy also has very expensive SUV's but are considered affordable. Look at the huge volumes sold. Then look at the Escalade and you see unaffordable trucks.
What about Solstice/Sky? Those are certainly as similar as Camry/Avalon. The Toyo twins at least have different wheelbases.
Perhaps we have different definitions of badges??? They have different sheet metal and different interiors. Sure they are both 2 seaters and if you put all hte two seaters in a room most could say that the Sky/Solstice were probably on the same platform buy all would say they are different vehicles.
Perhaps we have different definitions of badges??? They have different sheet metal and different interiors. Sure they are both 2 seaters and if you put all hte two seaters in a room most could say that the Sky/Solstice were probably on the same platform buy all would say they are different vehicles.
I was reacting to earlier posts slamming Toyota for Camry/Avalon/ES as rebadging. I don't see Sky/Solstice as any different, so if one is going to criticise Toyo for that then we should include other GM models.
There's obviously a continuum between identical cars with different grills/taillights, identical platforms with different body panels, and then same basic platforms with even different dimensions such as wheelbase.
Pontiac w/ Buick merge won't work unless you turn the Lucerne into a RWD Bonneville which might work ???? The LaCrosse could be a G6 but with RWD I suppose.
Loren, perhaps you have this thought out already ?????
I seriously doubt that claim. Did they test the CTS w/3.6 and sport package? most likely not. Do you have the link supporting this data claim?. You still need to a 3 point turn to execute a U turn on narrow streets in a TL. I drove both cars on the same road after seeing the Maxima require it... After trying it in a TL my decision was made. There is no need to emulate the TL with the CTS they have much lesser priced cars to do that. Actually TL's exhaust pipes emulate the Grand Prix's "So, where does CTS RWD advantage show over FWD TL? " In handeling and driving the car in the rain, no torque steer. There a number of people that have both cars and they prefer to drive the CTS.
Look at Edmunds road tests for CTS and TL. CR also rated the current gen TL (04 was tested) with very good handling and close to BMW 3 series in "actual" capability. But, CR said they thought that BMW had better feel.
FWD is usually better than RWD in rain (as well as snow) because tread of front tires are biting at pavement with torque. In RWD car, front tires can act like a toboggan or ski, riding up on the water or snow.
Will be interesting to see how new 08 CTS does in comparos in C&D, R&T, CR and Edmunds. How close can it come to Infiniti, or BMW? How will GM market CTS in terms of who they view as competitors.
I would agree that turning circle could be important in tight quarters, big city streets.
The Corvette is a Chevy mostly because that is where it started. But it was designed first, then Cole, at that time Chevrolets engineer, saw it, and supported development, so perhaps that is the prime reason why it is a Chevy.
Well Buick is the doctors car, but these days they drive Cadillacs and BMWs. So what becomes of those cars in the middle. Same fate as the Olds? Lucerne and LaCrosse are temporary cars. Does GM need a Buick in North America? Will it be a top of the line Holden RWD car? Basically a top line Impala. Is this a bit like the Maxima being stuck between Nissan and Infinity? They make it RWD and it takes from G35. Where does Buick fit? Will they be a softer version of a CTS in the starting line up, followed by the top line Holden? LaCrosse seems like history, as does the Lucerne, unless the Lucerne continues on as the FWD large car as DTS goes RWD. Hey, that's a possible. Can Buick regain the historic car image -- the near luxury status a notch below Caddy? And the CTS starts at $31K, so where does the Buick fit in, once it goes upscale? Is this a crowded market, a narrow gap between pricing points? -Loren
If I give the quote "it becomes bouyant, like an old Buick," would you say that statement shows
A. bias against Buick B. lack of having driven a Buick since 1999 to know the ride is not an interstate float C. attempt to use the word "old" to denigrate the Buick brand name D. favoritism toward Buick E. all of the above F. none of the above
Where does Buick end up with such bias in the media?
Someone suggested a Buick CTS version. Now that could bring back the days of the Super (short wheelbase, large motor IIRC????) Buick again.
How can there be a Buick without the Riviera? That should be the one below the Cadillac CTS, say selling for $27K with RWD. Is this possible? What does a V8 Holden run ( use the 303HP DoD engine?) price wise? The GTO didn't make it in the market place. The Riviera was always coming up with the next cool look. It would have to have a lot more pizazz than say the Pontiac GTO or the new Impala. Heck, could sell well into the lower $30K if the car really was an eye catcher. Personally, dropping the Riviera was one of the saddest things for Buick and GM. And I know some people here feel the name Park Avenue should be resurrected.
As for Buick and performance, I guess one could argue that a Grand National is nothing snicker at while at a stop light :P
Same here Loren. It seems my idea of badge engineering is slightly different as well than some here, though you and I are pretty close on thinking. I guess I've been in the industry too long and owned too many GMs that were/are B.E. and some that were not really, depending on who you asked. I guess in designing the components & assemblies I do, working on the BIW and inner structures, at the end of the day they are all the same body/platform, just different levels.
It's like you said, the old J-cars were so close they could be considered B.E. but the g-bodies of the same era may not be. Or like back in the day (30s - 40s) with the old b-bodies and c-bodies. It's all in the differentiation like you stated.
But I still can't get forgive GM when it does what I call "nameplate engineering", basically talking a great name from the past, putting it on an also-ran type of vehicle just to sell it. A vehicle that really doesn't live up to it. It just kind of burns me because the name has lost that spark, that specialness, its soul. I won't get into that as its been discussed before.
Well hopefully I will find out something soon if my beloved Velite will come back. I posted a wikipedia-GM link still showing a 2009' Buick Velite yesterday. My heart melts at the thought. GM, needs to make it with a Twin Turbo 400-450 hp. 3.6 "High Feature" V-6 with DI :shades:
The Buick Velite is a roadster concept car designed by Buick and built by Bertone. It was first presented to the public at the 2004 New York International Auto Show.
In 2002, Buick showed a roadster concept car that they called the Bengal. It was widely thought to be an impressive exercise in styling, but never considered to be a viable production vehicle. With the Velite, a much more practical design is put forth. Originally speculated to utilize the General Motors Kappa platform, the basis that underpins the Pontiac Solstice and the Saturn Sky roadsters, both of which are seeing production, but in actuality the Velite makes use of the Zeta platform — which is shared with the current models of the Holden Commodore and the 2008 Pontiac GTO.
The Velite features styling cues that show its Buick heritage. The "waterfall" front grill, triple fender portholes, cleanly elegant lines, not extravagant. Its engine is an experimental twin-turbocharged 3.6L V6, rated at 400hp, mated to a 6 speed automatic transmission.
Buick has shown great interest in producing it, but have said it is unlikely it will be found in show rooms until at least the 2008 model year as they are concentrating on refreshing almost their entire lineup with new models, including the LaCrosse, the Lucerne and the Terraza. The twin-turbochargers will not likely make it to production, even though Buick is experienced with forced induction, with the early 80s Buick Grand National.
No one has commented on the quote, "It becomes buoyant, like an old Buick."
That's from the current issue of Consumer Reports.
They were evaluating the Nitro as a first look. When they use the "old Buick" as a quote, there's no hope for GM and the Buick name. May as well close up the Pontiac and Buick stores.
But they called the Nitro skin deep beauty, relentlessly noisy, vague steering, hard plastic, spartan interior. They essentially said it JANG. GM can stay ahead of that Chrysler product apparently in CR's evaluation.
I still like the idea of a Buick CTS. I could be interested in that.
Comments
How do you know? Have you drive it yet?
TL is going for around $34K fully loaded w/navi now and the sportier TL-S is at $36.5K w/navi. Even the current CTS couldn't beat the TL in the "value" department so I strongly doubt that the new and improved 2008 will.
The G8 which will be unveiled next week will also be a direct competitor for the TL
The G8 will NOT be a direct competitor for the TL because last time I checked, Pontiac isn't a luxury brand yet. Performance wise it could probably run with TL or even better but I have NO DOUBT the G8's interior won't be as refine as the TL's. As matter of fact, it won't even be close.
I love factual info. How do you know this? Got a link?
That's okay, I have faith in Pontiac with their previous track record to come up with not-so-desired interior. We can revisit this topic when the G8 is officially introduced.
Just curious, do you think G8's interior will be better than CTS's? If not, then why would one expect that it'll be at the same level as TL's. To me, the new CTS's interior is neck to neck with TL's (at least from the pictures that is). In case you didn't quiet get the point...
CTS = TL (interior)
G8 < CTS (interior)
=> G8 < TL (interior)
We will find out about 08 CTS and new G8 when we can look at, sit in, touch and test drive them and see for ourselves. Guess that some present Acura owners would check out CTS, don't think that too many would consider a Pontiac.
GM and Pontiac were leaders in 60's but squandered away 70's through 90's. We can only imagine what GM might have accomplished if it had an "engineering" and "excellence" mindset over those last 3 decades.
And you can get a fully loaded CTS for that with incentives
The G8 will NOT be a direct competitor for the TL because last time I checked, Pontiac isn't a luxury brand yet. Performance wise it could probably run with TL or even better but I have NO DOUBT the G8's interior won't be as refine as the TL's. As matter of fact, it won't even be close.
Is Acura a legit luxury car ???? I believe the Pontiac brand has about as much luxury credibility as the Acura brand. Acura's have always been perceived as sporty with with bells and whistles. Pontiac might not have as many bells but it sure had a lot of whistles.
Rocky
P.S. I guarantee the TL and G8 will be cross shopped.
Dude, are you serious ????? :surprise: The current TL isn't in the same league. The difference is the new CTS uses real materials instead of Faux wood, and Faux carbon fiber and cheap soft aluminum while looked good it wasn't very high quality and you had to be xtra careful not to dent it. The wood looked so awful on the tan leather I had to get the ebony so I could get the much better looking faux carbon fiber. The other flaw was the plastic door sill that would scuff very easily. The editors from several car mags said their 04' TL long-term tester aged prematurely. If you don't believe me go look at the long term test article from Motor Trend. I'm sure you will be able to fin it on the net louiswei.
Rocky
Laughing out loud.
Rocky
Rocky
xrunner2, I am with you on this one. I am laughing so hard that my cube-mate was asking me what joke I was reading and want me to forward it to him.
Rocky
The G8 will not be a competitor for the TL because the G8 is in a whole different size category. Indications are that the G8 is pretty much a Commodore SS, which has a nicer interior than just about anything GM sells here. The SS-V has the Rockyesque gadgetology, but I believe we're not getting that one. Hopefully the Holden interior will make it over here intact, but the fact that the Detroit goons were allowed to molest the sheet metal is not a good sign.
Will the G8 be better? I thought you had info on how it is in Austrailian form since it looks like it might be the same interior? Just thought you knew.
you: That's okay, I have faith in Pontiac with their previous track record to come up with not-so-desired interior.
Well the GTO's interior received lots of compliments for quality. Why do you keep your head in the sand ????
Go look at the Holden Commodore's features and tell me they aren't on par with the current TL ??? The G8' according to Motor Trend might get Delphi's MRC *magneride
Rocky
Yes we are to getting that one !!!!
Rocky
I like to know what I am talking about, not just make statements.
Have questions for both of you concerning "Badge Engineering". What do you guys consider badge engineering and what does it take to elevate a vehicle out of that status?
You both admit that GM only has a few vehicles left that can be considered badge engineered, Torrent/Equinox and Cobalt/G5, the pickups, Tahoe/Denali, Colorado/Canyon, Lucerne/DTS, Aura/Malibu/G6 (seems a little more than a few to me); and you both made comments that will change in the future. But with the new crossovers, couldn't they be considered badge-engineered? The Saturns are really Opels, the Ponchos are going to be Holdens (along with Impala, possibly a Buford). Also what of the current crop of vehicles: so-called minivan, TB/Envoy, Impala/MC...
Yes, they may be going away but they have to be considered do they not?
Not trying to stir the pot but just wondering what your thoughts are on the subject. No personal attacks or snide remarks please, just straight answers, thank you.
Supposedly the G8 sneak peak Charlie Gibson gave the other night had hood scoops and different front fenders. I suppose we'll find out next week.
If it really is the SS it is pretty sharp. It does look like the G8 front fascia has that huge lower opening though. Impossible to tell what kind of interior materials are used by looking at the pictures (but someone will) but looks nice.
As far as it being the SS only that could be true since the volume will supposedly be kept pretty low. There was a comment somewhere that price would be well under $30k but I really doubt that.
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/16/16n_comminside,0.jpg
Looks like same fenders to me. As little as they showed.
Okay, whatever works for you man...
Okay, whatever works for you man...
Are you putting words in my mouth for a reason?? Here is what I said.
If it really is the SS it is pretty sharp. It does look like the G8 front fascia has that huge lower opening though. Impossible to tell what kind of interior materials are used by looking at the pictures (but someone will) but looks nice.
I stated very factually I DID not know how good the interior will be. Why would you say what you did?
According to test "data" of Edmunds, 04 TL outperforms recent CTS in slalom. TL does 67.5 MPH, CTS does 61 MPH. Wonder if CTS could even beat Camry here. No test data on 07 Type S TL, but subjective test by Edmunds says it is better than 04-06. Edmunds shows better braking for TL over CTS.
Edmunds also said that TL goes through cones (slalom) just as quickly as a 3 series "in spite" of it being a front driver. So, where does CTS RWD advantage show over FWD TL? Maybe, Cadillac should have FWD CTS and try to emulate TL.
Rocky
P.S. bumpy, Motor Trend said the SSV was coming over here. I have not heard just the SS was going to be the only car available because that would make no sense.
Based upon that branding strategy, I've always wondered why the Corvette is a Chevy rather than a Pontiac.
I am thinking true badged engineered may be Cobalt to G5 in this era, and a worse case scenario in the past was Cavalier to Cimmeron. Those days are mostly gone. Not sure why the G5 was given to Pontiac, but the obvious answer must be that it was a quick fix to shore up Pontiac dealership sales. No big deal. The Aura, New Malibu and G6 will be different enough. Can't say the only difference is say a bumper and badge. Actually is a good thing. Gives the customer different handling cars, a choice in dealerships, different looks, and handling, maybe different qualities of interiors while still riding on the same platform. The New Malibu interior is vary different than the rest. And I may add it looks, from pics, to be soooooo much better than these hard plastic looks now, like the Charger and Mustang have.
-Loren
oh no!
And considering the pricing, it could also be sold thru. Cadillac. Ahhh, but the Corvette will always be a Chevy. WWIII would happen before they changed Corvette to Pontiac. I should have said, that would be the start of WWIII
Pontiac was / is the sporty line of GM. Perhaps there is some way to merge it with Saturn. OK, maybe not. Big and sporty, will be filled by the Impala SS won't it? Pontiac dealers get their sporty large car too? Is there room for all these divisions? Merge Pontiac with Buick?
-Loren
What about Solstice/Sky? Those are certainly as similar as Camry/Avalon. The Toyo twins at least have different wheelbases.
There is a lot of component sharing in Toyotas, just as much as you find in GM vehicles. At one time Toyota used the same four spoke steering wheel on almost all their vehicles from the Corolla to the LS400.
I don't know why component sharing is being discussed with badge engineering. Any car company would be smart to reuse good components between vehicles. Not the same as badge engineering.
I will say it (G8) will be a ELPS killer that will go after the TL, G35, Charger, Mazdaspeed6, Subaru Legacy Spec. B, Vinyl lined base 335i, etc. The 08' CTS, will go after the leather lined 335i, IS 350, Audi S4, Mercedes C class, etc.....
Rocky
If GM had to do it over again today they would probably make it a Pontiac but that would be over Chevyes dead body today.
But the thinking (at least to make some sense) is that the Corvette IS an affordable car in its own right. For what you get the Corvette always gets kudos as an affordable sports car. Look at Caddilac for an unaffordable one! Chevy also has very expensive SUV's but are considered affordable. Look at the huge volumes sold. Then look at the Escalade and you see unaffordable trucks.
Perhaps we have different definitions of badges??? They have different sheet metal and different interiors. Sure they are both 2 seaters and if you put all hte two seaters in a room most could say that the Sky/Solstice were probably on the same platform buy all would say they are different vehicles.
I was reacting to earlier posts slamming Toyota for Camry/Avalon/ES as rebadging. I don't see Sky/Solstice as any different, so if one is going to criticise Toyo for that then we should include other GM models.
There's obviously a continuum between identical cars with different grills/taillights, identical platforms with different body panels, and then same basic platforms with even different dimensions such as wheelbase.
Loren, perhaps you have this thought out already ?????
Rocky
You still need to a 3 point turn to execute a U turn on narrow streets in a TL. I drove both cars on the same road after seeing the Maxima require it... After trying it in a TL my decision was made.
There is no need to emulate the TL with the CTS they have much lesser priced cars to do that. Actually TL's exhaust pipes emulate the Grand Prix's
"So, where does CTS RWD advantage show over FWD TL? "
In handeling and driving the car in the rain, no torque steer.
There a number of people that have both cars and they prefer to drive the CTS.
FWD is usually better than RWD in rain (as well as snow) because tread of front tires are biting at pavement with torque. In RWD car, front tires can act like a toboggan or ski, riding up on the water or snow.
Will be interesting to see how new 08 CTS does in comparos in C&D, R&T, CR and Edmunds. How close can it come to Infiniti, or BMW? How will GM market CTS in terms of who they view as competitors.
I would agree that turning circle could be important in tight quarters, big city streets.
I personally don't think it's worth trying.
Rocky
Is this a crowded market, a narrow gap between pricing points?
-Loren
Buick," would you say that statement shows
A. bias against Buick
B. lack of having driven a Buick since 1999 to know the ride is not an interstate float
C. attempt to use the word "old" to denigrate the Buick brand name
D. favoritism toward Buick
E. all of the above
F. none of the above
Where does Buick end up with such bias in the media?
Someone suggested a Buick CTS version. Now that could bring back the days of the Super (short wheelbase, large motor IIRC????) Buick again.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As for Buick and performance, I guess one could argue that a Grand National is nothing snicker at while at a stop light :P
GM is now selling 80% of BPG brands at BPG dealers and it the standalone dealers will be gone ASAP.
To me the only reason to combine them into one division is to save advertising $. However how do you advertise such a divergent model line up?
It's like you said, the old J-cars were so close they could be considered B.E. but the g-bodies of the same era may not be. Or like back in the day (30s - 40s) with the old b-bodies and c-bodies. It's all in the differentiation like you stated.
But I still can't get forgive GM when it does what I call "nameplate engineering", basically talking a great name from the past, putting it on an also-ran type of vehicle just to sell it. A vehicle that really doesn't live up to it. It just kind of burns me because the name has lost that spark, that specialness, its soul. I won't get into that as its been discussed before.
Please stop it Loren. I had a chance to buy both a couple years ago. A clean, nice '63 Riv and/or an '87 GN.
I passed on both
And with Rock having dreams of a RWD Bonnie...I can't take it :sick:
Rocky
In 2002, Buick showed a roadster concept car that they called the Bengal. It was widely thought to be an impressive exercise in styling, but never considered to be a viable production vehicle. With the Velite, a much more practical design is put forth. Originally speculated to utilize the General Motors Kappa platform, the basis that underpins the Pontiac Solstice and the Saturn Sky roadsters, both of which are seeing production, but in actuality the Velite makes use of the Zeta platform — which is shared with the current models of the Holden Commodore and the 2008 Pontiac GTO.
The Velite features styling cues that show its Buick heritage. The "waterfall" front grill, triple fender portholes, cleanly elegant lines, not extravagant. Its engine is an experimental twin-turbocharged 3.6L V6, rated at 400hp, mated to a 6 speed automatic transmission.
Buick has shown great interest in producing it, but have said it is unlikely it will be found in show rooms until at least the 2008 model year as they are concentrating on refreshing almost their entire lineup with new models, including the LaCrosse, the Lucerne and the Terraza. The twin-turbochargers will not likely make it to production, even though Buick is experienced with forced induction, with the early 80s Buick Grand National.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Velite
That's from the current issue of Consumer Reports.
They were evaluating the Nitro as a first look. When they use the "old Buick" as a quote, there's no hope for GM and the Buick name. May as well close up the Pontiac and Buick stores.
But they called the Nitro skin deep beauty, relentlessly noisy, vague steering, hard plastic, spartan interior. They essentially said it JANG. GM can stay ahead of that Chrysler product apparently in CR's evaluation.
I still like the idea of a Buick CTS. I could be interested in that.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,