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  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    As the Intrigues V6 northstar derived engine was dropped or not used on other vehicles its per piece cost point skyrocketed. It just got too expensive. Olds held the line feeling that the market they wanted desired a DOHC engine. Put that car out of business.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    A year ago it was all the talk on these forums that GM should merge with Nissan/Renault. They were the cats meow and could do not wrong. the questions were, why would Nissan want to merge with GM? Many felt GM should jump on their bandwagon and be saved. Rick held the line and said he could see no advantage on GM's part to partner with them. GM already had plenty of volume to take advantage of parts volume cost advantages.

    No it looks like Nissan is in a bit of trouble. Ghosn keeps saying the new product is coming and all will be well. Well the product is here and it does not look that great. We will have to wait and see if things turn around and sales pick up with the new product this year.

    Ghosn: Nissan Is in a 'Performance Crisis' ? The Associated Press
    Feb. 2, 2007

    TOKYO ? Nissan is having a "performance crisis."

    That's what the Japanese automaker's president, Carlos Ghosn, said today after Nissan slashed its annual forecast and reported a 22 percent slump in earnings from October through December.

    "We have today a performance crisis and we need to fix it as soon as possible," president and chief executive Ghosn told reporters in Tokyo in a conference call from Paris. "We don't take this lightly ... it's really an interrogation for us, about our management ways."

    Japan's No. 3 automaker by global vehicle production, said net income fell to $870.8 million in the fiscal third quarter.

    The drop forced the Tokyo-based company to cut its profit forecast for the fiscal year through March by 12 percent to $3.83 billion. If realized, it would be Nissan's first annual profit decline in seven years.

    Sales climbed a meager 1.8 percent from a year earlier to$19.5 billion on a 3 percent fall in unit sales to 795,000. The company also warned that it is falling behind its full-year sales target of 3.7 million vehicles.

    The woes at Nissan, which is 44 percent owned by Renault SA of France, underlined the diverging fortunes of the automaker and its archrivals Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co., which have both notched up record earnings while boosting market share in the United States and elsewhere.

    It was also the first time that Ghosn ? who became a celebrity in Japan for his turnaround of an automaker that was once on the brink of bankruptcy ? has faced tough questions about the company's outlook.

    Nissan recently ceded its spot as Japan's second-largest automaker to Honda, and has struggled to boost profits amid sagging sales. A lack of new models hurt U.S. sales and compounded wider problems such as tough competition and spiraling commodity costs.

    In the first half of the fiscal year, Nissan launched just one of 10 new products scheduled for the market. It rushed out six more in the third quarter, but the company conceded the move came too late.

    Unit sales in the United States, the company's most important market, inched up just 0.9 percent to 243,000 vehicles in the latest quarter, but were still down 6.9 percent in the first nine months. Sales in Japan and Europe, Nissan's next two biggest markets, were down both in the quarter and for the first nine months.

    Still, Brazilian-born Frenchman Ghosn, who became the first foreigner to head a Japanese automaker when he took over Nissan's top job in 1999, said the company was bolstering its vehicle lineup and expected a quick return to profit growth.

    "We are expecting 2007 to be better than 2006, in terms of growth, profit, and net income. The question is how much better," Ghosn said. "If Nissan is not capable of growing with this product pipeline, then the situation is really tragic. This we don't think."

    He added that neither Nissan or French automaker Renault SA, of which Ghosn is also chief executive, would rush to form alliances with other automakers.

    In a bid to strengthen their global market position, Nissan and Renault entered talks with Detroit-based General Motors Corp. about forming a three-way alliance last year. But the talks came undone after Nissan and Renault declined to pay a premium for reaping what GM said would have been a disproportionate share of the benefits.

    "We are not going to deviate any of our attention or energy outside," Ghosn said. "We want to re-establish the growth in profit and sales for Nissan, and establish a good pattern of growth at Renault, before envisioning anything else."

    For the first nine months combined, Nissan's net income rose 3.5 percent to $3.16 billion. Sales by value edged up 1.2 percent to $57.3 billio
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    There has been zilch discussion or comments on this subject. Do you all feel this will do nothing for GM? Will not residuals rise?

    GM: 100,000-mile used car warranties; Automaker will extend engine guarantee on certified used vehicles.
    Sharon Terlep
    The Detroit News
    684 words
    3 February 2007
    The Detroit News
    1
    English
    (c) Copyright 2007, The Detroit News. All Rights Reserved.

    LAS VEGAS -- General Motors Corp. said Friday it will extend its five-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty to used cars going back to the 2002 model year, another move to convince customers that its cars and trucks are as reliable as those made by its Japanese rivals.

    The warranties apply to all GM Certified Used Vehicles and are fully transferable. They become available March 1.

    "This is what you'd expect from a company like GM -- a company that wants to remain a leader," said Troy Clarke, president of GM's North American operations who announced the deal in Las Vegas at the National Automobile Dealers Association annual convention. "Quality will not be a reason for people to not buy our cars."

    The world's largest automaker has made strides in improving quality, but its cars and trucks still are widely perceived by consumers as inferior to Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co.

    The new warranty covers hundreds of components that comprise the engine, transmission and final drive assemblies. It applies to all GM Certified Used Vehicles from Buick, Chevrolet, GMC, Oldsmobile and Pontiac sold in the United States.

    A similar offering soon will be made for Saturn vehicles, Clarke said.

    The warranty will help GM in its fight to maintain its lead over a surging Toyota and keep its title as the world's No. 1 automaker because, Clarke said, a strong reputation translates to sales.

    Dealers had been pushing GM to back used cars with a warranty, and the automaker wanted something that would help it stand out in a market where overall vehicle quality is good.

    "The No. 1 thing a used car buyer is afraid of is problems," said Ed Bozarth, a Chevrolet dealer with eight Chevrolet outlets in Topeka, Kan., Grand Junction, Colo., and the Denver area. "This is a safety net. It's huge."

    More importantly, the move is a statement that GM is confident its vehicles, even used ones, will hold up, said Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis at J.D. Power and Associates.

    "They would have had to compute the costs of doing this and determined that the cost was worth it," Libby said. "That right there tells you the quality is up."

    GM also plans to bolster the online presence of its used vehicles by adding Cars.com to its online vehicle-listing program.

    The move will effectively double the number of GM Certified Used Vehicles for sale on the Internet.

    Certified Used Vehicles now come with a three-month, 3,000-mile bumper-to-bumper comprehensive limited warranty.

    The powertrain warranty also includes a 24-hour roadside-assistance plan valid through five years or 100,000 miles.

    Owners of Certified Pre-Owned Saabs and Hummers already get a six-year, 100,000-mile bumper-to-bumper limited warranty.

    GM has been on a mission to improve the perception of its brands.

    Like its domestic rivals Ford Motor Co. and DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group, GM is still working to overcome a history of selling vehicles notorious for their shoddy quality.

    Turning that image around is vital not only to sell vehicles, but also to raise their resale values. Poor resale value makes vehicles less attractive to consumers and cuts into dealers' profits.

    The first major move from GM came last fall when it announced that, beginning with 2007 models, it would include an enhanced powertrain warranty of five years or 100,000 miles on all new cars and light-duty trucks.

    The company is also making strides in respected quality surveys. Toyota and its luxury Lexus brand won top honors in eight individual categories in J.D. Power and Associates' 2006 Vehicle Dependability Study, which measures customer satisfaction after three years of vehicle ownership. But several models from GM and Ford also were named the best in their segments.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    My understanding was that Oldsmobile was given exclusive use of the DOHC engines to give them an edge. As I understood things at the time, the DOHC 3.5 V6 was dropped in favor of the newly developed 3.6. The 3.5 was planned to replace the 3800, but the 3800 could meet the emissions standards easier (cheaper?) than the 3.5. It was also my understanding (based on tidbits of info in various car magazines) that Buick would have liked the 4 liter V8 for the Riviera, but the choice was to either make the 3800 standard in both the Riviera and the Aurora, with the V8 an option, or to make the V8 standard on the Aurora, and Buick would not get the engine.

    If what you are saying is true, then GM basically made Oldsmobile unprofitable simply by putting the DOHC engines in their cars. The truth of the matter is that the Intrigue's prices for model year 2001 were very similar to the Buick Regal, with the Regal slighly higher priced if anything.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    There has been zilch discussion or comments on this subject. Do you all feel this will do nothing for GM? Will not residuals rise?

    I dunno; it depends on how many people buy GM Certified Used Vehicles (from the dealer, I assume) versus picking up a 2-year-old Malibu from the Enterprise fire sale lot, or Billy Bob's Used Car & RV Sales. I think it won't help much except at the margins, since the low residuals are driven by supply (lots of late-model low-trim vehicles) and demand (not many people willing to spend freely on ex-rental cars).
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I don't know either: BUT: I am still waiting for my dealer to find a program (or used) SRX suitably equipped. I may go to Detroit to get one. I will want the 6 year, 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty. I won't go to Chicago because the dealer there is charging $2500 extra to certify. My local dealer said this is a $1000 extra.
  • v_dv_d Member Posts: 89
    Saturn just announced that we`ll just get the 1.8l inline 4 with 140hp, at least for a start. Prices should start around $16,000 for the Astra when it goes on sale this fall. 3 and 5 door config, no 4 door at the moment.

    all the best
    vd
  • jcgablejcgable Member Posts: 30
    Although the rumors have now receded a bit, it appears that GM is at least THINKING about doing a mild mid-cycle refresh to it's compact cobalt sedan/coupe. Though Autoblog is stating that the car shown in the photo is only for a new Chevy commercial set to air in the SuperBowl, I think there may be a good chance of this new cobalt seeing the light of day, especially seeing as it is sporting the new corporate grill (the same on that debuted with the Tahoe and Malibu). I personally think that a refresh of the cobalt with this new look would be an excellent step, and would definitely put GM in a position to face off against the top selling civic and corolla models. The corolla will continue with its current design now because of a shortage of engineers, giving cobalt a good chance to really catch up in sales.
    /
    Here's the link below. What do you guys think? I think the new grille will look nicely sans the ugly body kit.

    Cobalt Redesign Rumors
  • rwisemrwisem Member Posts: 96
    I loved the Intrigue - had a'98 3.8 and a 2001 3.5. I heard the shortstar cost as much to build as the Northstar. That wasn't the only premium hardware in the Olds. It's true GM couldn't charge what they wanted or sales would have tanked even more.

    The big problem with the Intrigue was the assembly plant. The Buick mid-size were built in the excellent Oshawa planr while the Intrigue was assembled in Kansas City or St. Louis, I believe. The build quality news got out and buyers lost interest. Both of mine were perfect.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Caddy 13K (units sold) in Jan 07 vs 14K units sold in Jan 06
    Saturn 13K units sold in Jan 07 vs 16K units sold in Jan 06
    Buick 12K units sold in Jan 07 vs 17K units sold in Jan 06
    GMC 27K units sold in Jan 07 vs 26K units sold in Jan 06
    Pontiac 24K units sold in Jan 07 vs 38K units sold in Jan 06
    Chevy 147K units sold in Jan 07 vs 172K units sold in Jan 06
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Per the comments I can pretty much assure that this is a MCE for the Cobalt (front end only in this pic.)
    Probably some minor changes to the rear and interior also.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The cost difference would have been two pistons, some spark plugs and a little bit of metal PLUS the Intrigue would have to pay for the tooling while the Northstar was paid for by many vehicles that used it.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    One of our Buicks I know was assembled in Kansas City. Might have been 85 J Skyhawk or 89 Century. I remember waiting for it to be built and it was coming from K.C.

    All three of ours were excellent in assembly quality.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "The first Gen odsseys were based on the Accord but the newer ones don't look anything like an accord underneath."

    The First Generation Odysessy(95-98 I think) was a rebadged Isuzu Oasis I think. The 2nd generation(99-04)Odyessy was based on the accord if thats you mean in your post.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "One of our Buicks I know was assembled in Kansas City. Might have been 85 J Skyhawk or 89 Century. I remember waiting for it to be built and it was coming from K.C."

    "All three of ours were excellent in assembly quality."

    Buick has probably always been GM's most dependable brand in terms of quaility/reliability based on JD Powers and Consumer Reports reliability ratings of Buick as a brand(JD Power) and Consumer Reports(reliability ratings of Buick cars.)
  • v_dv_d Member Posts: 89
    and here is the 4-door... launched in Europe

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    not bad... not bad at all... :D

    oh and the numbers for the 1.8i engine are:
    0-60: 10.8 secs
    Maximum Speed: 198km/h
    Fuel Consumption: 10.5L/100km and 6.2L/100km (conv)
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    My idea is Horsepower should be variable. If someone can derive 400 HP from a 1.8 Litre engine why can't a mfr make a 3.3 or 4.1 or something that will produce as much as needed by simply dialing in what you desire.

    That thing was invented 100 years ago. It's called "gas pedal." See, HP is never a constant value, it's a curve of RPMs. The labelled HP figure is just the peak number of the curve. Easy on the gas and the RPM is low, you have less power and save gas. It's that simple.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Actually, the Isuzu Oasis was a rebadged Honda Odyssey. Honda still sells the updated version of that mid-90s Odyssey (regular doors instead of sliders) in other markets including the hone market. Just not the U.S. But that early Odyssey was all Honda. It was a trade with Isuzu, which had no minivan, for the Rodeo that became the Honda Passport during those same years.

    The current Odyssey is on a stretched North American Accord platform, not the world Accord platform that the JDM Odyssey is based on.

    GM's idea to extend its powertrain warranty all the way back to the '02s was a good one - demonstrates a great deal of faith in the product. You know, posters on this site were suggesting the idea of extending the warranty for YEARS, how come it took GM so long to have the same idea?? :-P

    As for residuals, I'm no expert, but won't this have a temporary effect, if any? The cars that got covered retroactively will be going out of warranty steadily. Besides, as was mentioned above, residual value is as much a function of whether or not the market is flooded with a model, especially lots and lots with similar configurations like ex-rentals are prone to be, as it is of a model's reliability.

    These days I'm not sure who is trying to emulate whom more: GM to emulate Toyota or Toyota to emulate GM. Toyota could sure use a performance division, but geez, perhaps GM could too. The Corvette, it's most performance-oriented product, is a Chevy, not exactly the performance brand. The V-cars are all Cadillacs, but so is the STS (snooze) and the DTS (coma). The roadster, Solstice, is a Pontiac, but geez it is also the Sky, the Solstice's almost-twin. Pontiac sells the Grand Prix (sporty in name only), and the G5 and G6 (both slightly sportified versions of other GM brand cars, but without much sport built in). Hardly a performance brand does this motley group make.

    By contrast, Toyota is almost totally sunk. Introducing anything sporty to the Toyota brand now would be viewed as a bad joke, while Lexus is the snooze-mobile brand of the century. Even when Toyota tries to give Lexus some genuinely sporty cars, the most they can get from the press is a half-hearted "well, give Lexus credit for its usual flawless execution...not the car we would choose for sporty driving, but well-made nonetheless". It's like Toyota's whole history of sporty cars (and now participation in racing) has been entirely forgotten or something. This latest F-line thing is going to be yet another waste of time to roll down the same toilet as did "L-finesse", or whatever the last attempt at sporty Lexi was called.

    And Scion, sure you could give Scion some sporty cars, something unique and weird from the Japanese home market, but it can't be too expensive (as genuinely sporty cars tend to be) because Scion is the entry brand after all.

    The future Pontiac line-up, as envisioned right now, would be the first real sport brand to develop between this pair of carmaking behemoths, and I will be excited to see if they can bring it to fruition.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    As for residuals, I'm no expert, but won't this have a temporary effect, if any? The cars that got covered retroactively will be going out of warranty steadily.

    Sounds somewhat right. But then again it should give a "perception" bump to the new models and they may keep it from now on. I mean residuals are based on what people will pay for a used car and if the "perception" is that they are better because the company stands behind them more than another company does then the prices will stay up. Also if more buy the used cars now and see the quality improvements they may be more inclined to buy new GM's later.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    As far as performance you seem to have missed all the Pontiac GXP's. AND if Pontiac volume does not turn around soon they should just make all that GXP hardware standard and become a lower volume niche player. Issue with making performance hardware standard is the increased prices will lower volume. They could actually do this since the dealers are dualed with GMC/Buick and should have enough volume to support a franchise.

    http://www.pontiac.com/gxp/index.jsp

    Also the GP has a 300+ HP V8. To most that is performance in a mid sized car but some have a different perception of performance. Besides the GP is older than dirt now and the G8 should be looked at as the next step for Pontiac.

    A lot of what makes a vehicle/brand performance is more than just hp. While Acura may be looked at as a performance division their engines are not that much more powerful than Lexus. It's attitude and marketing (OK, also some suspension tuning and styling).

    I think if Toyota wants to use performance to increase corporate volume significantly they will need a new division. IMO!!
  • rwisemrwisem Member Posts: 96
    Being a 90 degree V6, didn't the Shortstar also have balance shafts not needed in the Northstar?
  • ethan8ethan8 Member Posts: 13
    If the rear seat room is as good as the photo suggests then sedan buyers might give it a look. If on the other hand they have just slid the front seat forward to make it look like there is leg room then Eh, why would I buy this? It's a cobalt 4 door. We already have that. I had told my dealer I wanted the 2 door hatchback but once I saw that GM USA had restyled the rear bumper I changed my mind to the five door hatch. The sole change on the five door car is the badge.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    yes,
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_199808/ai_n8818673
    New Olds V6

    Oldsmobile has developed a new 3.5liter twin-cam 90 deg V6 engine for the 1999 Intrigue GLS, replacing the 3800 V6 currently used. It will be standard in all Intrigue models by the end of '99. This latest engine, a derivative of the 4.0-liter Aurora V8, is a showcase of GM's technology and foreshadows future trends of engine development.

    The new DOHC 24-valve V6 employs three single-row roller chains and eight sprockets to keep the valve timing synchronized, with no maintenance for the life of the engine.

    A single primary chain drives the two intake cams and the balance shaft directly from the crank sprocket. Two separate shorter loops connect the exhaust cams to the intake cams. Three guides help restrain the primary chain along taut runs, while a hydraulically activated tensioner arm eliminates slack. Oil pressure-fed tensioners complete the maintenance-free design.

    The two-piece aluminum engine block, split at the crankshaft midline, uses iron cylinder liners to house aluminum pistons. Aluminum cylinder heads sit atop the block to reduce weight while improving heat dissipation. A counterrotating balance shaft is located in the vee of the block for smoother, quieter operation. Powdered metal is used in the connecting rods, cam drive sprockets, camshaft bearing caps, valve guides and valve seats, providing more consistent parts that require less machining.

    Smaller, top-feed SFI fuel injectors are fed by an advanced-design composite fuel rail, which attaches to the tuned, thermoplastic intake manifold without bolts. The engine's 3.52x3.62inch (89.5x92mm) bore/stroke and a 9.3:1 compression ratio produce 215 horses at 5500 rpm and 230 ft-lb of torque at 4400 revs, all on regular fuel.

    A caseless oil filter is located in the bottom of cast-aluminum oil pan, which is designed for complete oil drainage. The 512-kilobyte Powertrain Control Module (PCM) continuously monitors engine operation and calculates when maximum useful oil life has been reached, then notifies the driver to change the oil. The PCM, which monitors more than 29 sensors, is located in the air cleaner, where airflow provides cooling. It also oversees the coil-on-plug ignition.

    DexCool engine coolant, purported to be good for 150,000 miles, is used in the low-volume, high-flow-rate cooling system, which includes an internal bypass for faster warmup and reduced caold-start emissions. In the event of sudden coolant loss, a "limp-home" mode allows the engine to run at lower revs.

    The new 3.5-liter V6 has lower NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) levels than its predecessor and meets California's Low Emission Vehicle (LEV) standards.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    While Acura may be looked at as a performance division their engines are not that much more powerful than Lexus. It's attitude and marketing (OK, also some suspension tuning and styling).

    That suspension tuning is rather the important part.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    One would think that developing a larger version of the Opel V6 would have been a more cost-effective way to go, and I suppose that GM did learn that lesson for the second year of the CTS. Killing a division is a very costly way to learn that lesson, though.

    Also, why was the compression so low? Carryover pistons from the Northstar?
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    V8 engines require a certain amount of balancing too. However, the biggest problem with 90 degree V6's is that the crankshaft needs to be designed somewhat differently to make the engines even firing. This was something that was put off on the 3.8 V6 until the late 70's.

    If one does a search for "crate engines", one can find prices for various engines. I found prices for the supercharged 3800 to run only a few hundred dollars less than the VVT northstar; the northstar is $4300, the 3800 is $3700, an LS7 (Corvette) is $13,000.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    No, I haven't missed all the GXP models. They took rental-grade FWD cars and did the muscle car treatment on them, right? Stuffed monster engines in a chassis not designed for that much power, maybe plugged in some wider tires, and called it a day? That does not make a performance brand to me. That makes a few niche models with limited sporting appeal. And since the Chevy brand was getting liberally splashed with SS models, I don't see how the GXP line makes Pontiac GM's sport brand any more than Chevy is. What I meant by my original comment was not that GM doesn't have any sporty models, but that they need to consolidate these scattered offerings into one, focused, sport brand. It could be Pontiac. I like that idea.

    As for Pontiac becoming a lower-volume niche player, it seems like that trend will start with the G8, won't it? They project being able to import 30K-50K of them from Holden, which has to be quite a bit lower than the current sales volume of GPs. And I guess the GP's last model year will be 2008, which is a relief.

    Next they need to get rid of all the G5 models except for a rebadged Cobalt SS (why isn't there a G5 version of that model?) and maybe the GT. Then they need to ask Holden "what more can you do for us?" for the rest of the Pontiac line. And start building the heck out of the Solstice - why does production have to be so limited for this model? It is clearly very popular, and it's not like Mazda limits the number of Miatas they put out, they build all the market will bear. GM could expand the Solstice line too, in various ways.

    I think we could both be wrong on the Toyota/sport thing, but it's not likely. We will see how the new sports cars (Supra, LF-A, F-cars) are received in the next three years. Will they change the image of Toy and Lex? Maybe. Will sport buyers even consider shopping those brands? We will see.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    September 2004 Automobile: as told by Oldsmobiles Ken Stewart to Don Sherman.

    After 4 years of more than 1 million sales, things went bad around 1987. The Accord and Camry moved into midsize models. GM had just redone the midsize coupes, which were no longer a market interest. The Cutlass Supremes were being traded in for Japanese cars.

    The Centennial Plan was lanched. Remember the "Not your Farther Oldsmobile"????? It was about this time that GM hired Ron Zarrella to try and sell cars like toothpaste, or dog biscuits or dish detergent: with clever marketing.

    No comments are made in the article concerning the engines costing so much money that Olds could not make a profit. The basic problem was that sales dropped to 400,000 by the mid-90's, and continued down. By 1999-2000 sales were 350,000 and then 290,000. At the end of 2000 GM announced that Olds would cease production in the near future. Sales then dropped to 234,000 and 155,000 in the next two years.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Lexus' F-series will be as sporty as MB's AMG division. Apparently both manufactures are into big horsepower, automatic tranny GT cars. The Cadillac V on the other hand is more of a direct competitor to BMW's M. Both are carrying manual and with emphasis of sharper steering.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    The G8 will eventually be made in Canada with the Camaro and Impala. It will not be a 40k a year vehicle for very long.

    They do not need to add any capacity for the Solstice because it will never be a volume car, in fact sales were down big time in January and I suspect we may see mild incentives on the car this year. The GXP moniker is really just replacing GTP for whatever reason. I dont see why Pontiac is going this but the G6 GXP is a solid FWD sports sedan. Unlike older pontiacs the top model actually has more than just styling features to set it apart from lesser models. At this point its not clear if the next G6 will be RWD or FWD but I think it will be FWD/AWD. Pontiac will become a smaller volume brand as they phase out models like the Torrent and Vibe. I dont see them having more than four vehicles in the future, G6, G8, Solstice GTO replacement and possibly a small car in the G5's current slot. Pontiac will not be a BMW clone because pontiac cannot charge BMW prices, but they will be making affordable, sporty vehicles. I would be surprised if a Solstice hardtop isnt in the works.

    "They took rental-grade FWD cars and did the muscle car treatment on them, right?"

    Honestly, I dont think the G6 is any more rental grade than the Fusion or Sonata. I find it interesting that people seem to believe you can deride a model STRICTLY because its commonly used at rental agencies. IN europe they use Audis and MBs as fleet cars but I dont hear anyone insulting those brands. If GM continues to cut fleet sales you are going to see more and more Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and Toyota rentals. I saw an altima and Camry at an Enterprise a few weeks back.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I think you need to do a little more research on the GTO. That car was almost universally praised by the press and few journalists would've predicted its slow sales. The styling was a sore point for SOME reviewers but everyone loved the engine, interior, steering and handling. The GTO was too heavy to compete with small AWD cars like the sti but it was a nice performance coupe in the vein of the CLK. It was not a "2004 rendition of 60's GM muscle cars by any stretch of the imagination. It had a nice ride, a nice interior and an IRS which means it was hardly a throwback.

    Many thought the car was too expensive but I didnt agree with that. It wasnt much faster than a Mustang, but it was much more refined and had an IRS. compared to a G35 or 330 coupe it was hardly overpriced. Of course the media typically refrains from comparing a domestic to comparable foreign car so the GTO was usually only compared to the cheaper Mustang. BTW, in several tests the GTO pulled .88g on the skidpad which is hardly Accord/Camry territory. It's slalom speeds werent all that great because of it's weight.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I agree with you that the GTO's sales were not bad at 12,000 per year. It was not a "run away" seller. Lutz, I think, expected it to sell quickly, but I think the styling was too bland (and too generic Pontiac) to really get much attention. The G8 sedan should do better, if only because it is a sedan.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    But why were sales down? First the competition came on like the comment said. Then Olds went away from its core market to try and compete with these new vehicles and buyers did not come in fast enough from the "new" market. One reason was the Intrigue went after a higher price point and could not get the volume.

    (by the way, I worked for Ken back then)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    If the new Camry had the bulletproof reliability of Camry's from 90-'06, and they lowered the cost 15-20% per vehicle so that they undercut the competition, then you might get your 1,000,000 sales. People won't care about how popular their ride is if they know it is far and away the best "value" out there.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think sales dropped because the Cutlass did appeal to younger buyers when they were selling million Oldsmobiles annually, and in the late 80's the younger buyers went away. The Intrigue was a late 90's model, and Oldsmobile was pretty much dead by then. My price guide for 1986 shows that the upper end Cutlass was in the $10-12,000 range depending on trim. The Buick Regal was more. The Pontiac 6000 was somewhat less, but the STE was $16,000. By 1992 the Cutlass Supreme was about $16,000, with the international trim much higher. Regals are $17-19,000. The Grand Prix has replaced the 6000 and is $15-16,000.

    In 1998 the Intrigue is new, with the 3800. Prices range $21-22,000. The Regal is $21-24,000. The Grand Prix is $19-21,000. For 1999, the Intrigue gets the DOHC V6 and is priced from $21,500 to $25,000. The Regal is priced from $21500 to $24,500. The Grand Prix is priced from $19,500 to $24,000.

    I guess that I don't see that the Intrigue is priced way out of line. I do see some evidence that the DOHC engine may have pushed the price up by a few hundred dollars. Compared to the supercharged Regal, the Intrigue did not have the performance. But I really think that the Intrigues market was long gone by 1999. I think Olds lost their customers in the late 80's.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    If the new Camry had the bulletproof reliability of Camry's from 90-'06, and they lowered the cost 15-20% per vehicle so that they undercut the competition, then you might get your 1,000,000 sales.

    Where would the 500,000 sales come from? They would have to come from other makes and that is possible but the competition would force all the prices down.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    But I really think that the Intrigues market was long gone by 1999. I think Olds lost their customers in the late 80's.

    GM saw their whole market going in the 80's. that is why they decided to differentiate Olds from Buick. the cars they brought out in the mid 90's were an attempt to go after a different market. It just did not work.

    Price delta was about $600.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The styling was a sore point for SOME reviewers but everyone loved the engine, interior, steering and handling.

    Many thought the car was too expensive but I didnt agree with that. It wasnt much faster than a Mustang, but it was much more refined and had an IRS. compared to a G35 or 330 coupe it was hardly overpriced.

    Don't recall reviewers/testers loving the handling. I got the impression that GTO (stock from dealer - not tricked out) was mediocre. This was both their subjective impression and "actual" test data in slalom. Weight is not an excuse for GTO poor slalom and handling. Slalom data of car tests in R&T and Edmunds shows that cars nearing 4000 lbs can do quite well in slalom.

    GTO was not in same league as refined BMW nor slightly less refined G35 coupe. GTO, in spite of milquetoast styling, might have had a better chance in marketplace if priced about 22-24K. Could have been a lot of takers by younger guys that usually have less to spend/finance.

    Just think what "could have been" with a different mindset at GM in 1970-2000 timeframe. GTO was on the scene "before" BMW 2002 and 3 series. If, "IF", GM were serious about automotive and engineering excellence back in late 60's and kept that focus, GTO could have evolved into a benchmark that BMW would chase. Think that Pontiac was touting performance back in 60's and high HP. Early 70's smog contols snuffed the HP, but GM/Pontiac could have worked on other aspects of GTO refinement.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I did like the Aurora and bought a 98. I really think that the 95 price of $32,000 was good. By the time I bought one, the price tag was too high for what you got. The interior plastics were too cheap looking, worse really than the CTS's. Worse than my 95 Riviera, which was not good either.

    I really think that GM's move to FWD in the full size cars was probably a blunder. I don't know if style was the reason, or if the customers figured that they were just getting a poor Japanese clone, so why not buy Japanese.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    This is what Road & Track said about the GTO: "It's an adult's car, and it's worlds more refined than a Mustang." This was from their comparison test with the Mustang.
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    Don't recall reviewers/testers loving the handling. I got the impression that GTO (stock from dealer - not tricked out) was mediocre. This was both their subjective impression and "actual" test data in slalom. Weight is not an excuse for GTO poor slalom and handling. Slalom data of car tests in R&T and Edmunds shows that cars nearing 4000 lbs can do quite well in slalom.
    The only thing the reviewers didn't like was the slow steering (which FYI they quickened in the 06s with a new power steering pump). Again, your stuck on one slalom test, the worst one that any review managed, and every review I've seen used the 17" all season tires which are plenty overmatched on a 400hp car. It is amazing how you think the GTO can't outhandle a minivan when stock, but with better tires, struts, and brakes, it can beat M3s and STIs in real racing events (all of which have the same upgraded parts). Sorry, but even though the stock parts are definitely tuned for comfort levels (which is very evident if you go drive a GTO vs a M3 or STI back to back), it is plenty competitive with similar sports cars as far as handling goes.

    GTO was not in same league as refined BMW nor slightly less refined G35 coupe. GTO, in spite of milquetoast styling, might have had a better chance in marketplace if priced about 22-24K. Could have been a lot of takers by younger guys that usually have less to spend/finance.

    So a well built, 400hp car should only cost 22k? Where do you come up with this stuff?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    So a well built, 400hp car should only cost 22k? Where do you come up with this stuff?

    No. 22-24K not 22. If Pontiac had cut some things out of the car and truly made it to meet or beat Mustang pricing, maybe GTO would have been success in marketplace.

    Perhaps 400 HP was too much. Why could not Pontiac have been closer in weight to a 3-series and then put in a lighter weight engine of 300 HP. I just use 3-series as weight example and do not imply that GTO is in same category of car.

    GM obviously did not understand marketplace and should have. Their best years for factory hot rods was in 60's and the vast majority of their offerings were relatively cheap and affordable.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The GTO only started out with 350 hp not 400 so low to mid 20's would should have been doable.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I forget now where I read it, but the original target price for the 350hp GTO was something like $27,000, which was pretty good for what amounted to a Camaro SS with a bigger back seat. Currency exchange rates pushed that into the low 30s, and subbing in the LS2 for 2005 (which had to be shipped in, versus the locally-built LS1) didn't help the price any.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The interior was much nicer than most domestic GM cars too.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    they can charge so much for a 9-3? Even with the $1,500 rebate, I think they are about 2K overpriced.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • v_dv_d Member Posts: 89
    IMO the 5-door looks more exciting than the 4, but then again I`m probably the only one who likes hatches.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Honestly, I dont think the G6 is any more rental grade than the Fusion or Sonata. I find it interesting that people seem to believe you can deride a model STRICTLY because its commonly used at rental agencies."

    Well, I can't say what others do, but I use the term to mean a car best suited for generic rental use, not because the car is actually used in rental fleets. Most base trims of the midsize sedans these days are what I would call rental-grade, including the very uninspiring Camry LE 4-cylinder. In addition to the Fusion and Sonata you mentioned, I would add Optima, Malibu, Altima, Sebring (the new one), and Aura. About the only one I would leave off the list is the Accord - even in base trim it is a well put-together, no-obvious-omissions-or-other-signs-of-cost-cutting, sedan. Yes, it has a very short equipment list in the DX. But the interior is comfortable, well-built, and has very good ergonomics. And it is the same mechanically as the high-volume LX, the next step up.

    Now, if I took a 4-cyl Camry LE and put in a 300 hp V-8, and perhaps put on some wider tires, it would be a nose-heavy pavement melter with no handling, a ton of torque steer probably, and some pretty scary dynamics "at the limit". And it would still have the so-so interior that the $18K Camry gets. Which pretty much sums up how I felt about the GP GXP when I drove it.

    If Pontiac is to be the sport brand, it has to be sport designed in to each model from the ground up, not an afterthought like the GP GXP.

    The GTO is/was the first example of this type of approach to the mission to be sold under the Pontiac name in a long time. The Solstice, base and GXP, is the second. They need lots more of these. And FWIW, having driven the GTO and Corvette back to back, I always thought the GTO was probably the best single sport value in the entire GM line-up. It's such a shame that car didn't do better in sales, but at least the General will be committing to more real sport products for Pontiac's future. And no rental-grade ones, I hope! :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    You arent going to find many 400hp cars on the market for $22k, give me a break. The GTO was seen as a touring car, NOT a pure sports car like the Vette. It couldnt match a C5 in handling, but it was on par with cars like the CLK and Mustang. Sure there are cars that handle well at 4000lbs, but most of those cars are very expensive European vehicles far beyond the GTOs price range. Generally speaking weight isn't good on a sporty car and the GTO was quite heavy. The slalom is only one measure of performance and it's the only one where the GTO was merely average. It's acceleration, braking and grip were great. They updated the brakes in 2004 when they added the dual pipes and 18" wheels and the car got even better. Pontiac should've offered a V6 model for $25k and dropped the price of the V8 model by $4k or so but I dont think it would've been realistic to import the car and sell it so cheap.
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