"I think some of you because you bought a import and proud of your decision go off the deep-end and then say it's okay the big 3 are getting hosed on the currency issue which is a $2-13K difference in profit. It's one thing to like your product you bought but I think it's ashame that you think the company you bought it from has to cheat."
Rocky, despite being a Japanese Car Fan I do agree with you the yen should be adjusted more fairly so its a more level playing field.
"Yeah, we manipulate our currency to the Europeans but 2 wrongs don't make it a right and if we can cheat against them as an american you one can say good for us."
So, in this paragraph I could be responding and saying well for every Opel that GM sells GM could be making as much money possibly on every car sold in Europe that Toyota makes on every car sold here due to the Yen factor. To me 2 wrongs don;t make it right and both the yen and whatever GM makes in Europe should be adjusted.
"So no GM, can't hold on to the #1 spot with all these domestic issues. Currency manipulation, Healthcare, and current trade policy's will not allow that to happen."
Rocky I agree with you on the healthcare, currency minpulation(which GM does too in Europe probably) and current trade policy's but GM has dug their own hole too and thats something you can;t blame the Japanese makes for.
Helping incompetent poor performing and poorly managed companies survive is always a mistake.
Why reward poor engineering, poor design, poor build quality, poor manufacturing, poor parts, poor pricing, and poor service with government bailouts.
Bad companies like Chrysler should have been allowed to die long ago. If they were allowed to die, maybe we'd have a better US nameplate today by a different name than the Big 3?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
My wife drug me shopping last night so I picked up the new Consumer Reports. I didn't think it was unfair towards GM at all. Nor was it all roses and candy for Toyota. Much of what CR said matched what has been said in this board fairly closely.
They actually had a quite a bit of good to say about GM. If anyone got the shaft, I think it was VW and Chrystler.
How did VW get the shaft? They scored the best average wise of any brand in CR tests but I don;t think CR likes VW because of their lack of good reliability.
"Bad companies like Chrysler should have been allowed to die long ago. If they were allowed to die, maybe we'd have a better US nameplate today by a different name than the Big 3?"
I think your wrong about Chrysler. The Germans(not Americans)ran that company into the ground.
"The unionization of foreign plants will help put things on an equal footing and it's a bitter fight. I saw a webpage about the Georgetown (KY Camry) plant that was really vicious (even makes some Edmunds discussions look tame, grin)."
How is unionization of foreign plants gonna put things on equal footing? Union officials don;t screw together or assemble a car the workers in the plant do that so is hsving the union in foreign plants gonna change anything?
I don't think I'm wrong about Chrysler. Was there any time in history where they were producing quality product? Seems to me that they've been in big time trouble for the past 30 years?
I know that in 94 I bought one of their "new" products that came from the Chrysler brain "Dodge" included. That was before the Germans got involved, and let me tell you, I wished they'd of gone out of business before, during, and/or right after I made that bone headed mistake of buying a Chrysler product.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"I dont know how many domestic vehicles you have owned recently, but personally I think its a stretch to assume the average domestic vehicles makes 3 or 4 warranty visits a year."
My parents have bought Domestics forever(80's, 90's, and 00's)and my parents domestics have never gone in for warranty work 3 or 4 times a year. We did have 1 lemon from GM but that was like a 1992 car(a Grand AM) and the 88 car(a Pontiac Grand Prix) had a few problems) but that was the first year of bodystyle so your gonna have some first year bugs with first year of a redeigned bodystyle.
"I would think that the average Japanese vehicle needs less warranty work than the average domestic but that isnt the same as saying domestic vehicles are in the shop all the time."
"I don't think I'm wrong about Chrysler. Was there any time in history where they were producing quality product?
Thats fair Chrysler has even been behind Ford and GM in reliability let alone Honda and Toyota.
"Seems to me that they've been in big time trouble for the past 30 years?"
Thats true they are very up and down saleswise in the past 2 and a half decades.
"That was before the Germans got involved, and let me tell you, I wished they'd of gone out of business before, during, and/or right after I made that bone headed mistake of buying a Chrysler product."
Oh that was the Neon that you bought your right those cars(the Neon)weren;t very good reliability wise.
"Of course the company I purchased my extended warranty went bankrupt and now I'm stuck paying the repairs, so far all of which have been because of poor design."
What Ford didn;t honor the extended warranty? What exactly happened that led to Ford not honoring the extended warranty. Its because they went bankrupt? I would think a warranty is a warranty and the manfacturer has to honor it no matter what.
They have a very colorful history of boom and bust over a VERY long time. In the mid fifties they had these fabulous designs - heck, in 1957 Plymouth was the third best selling make in the country - but they were rust buckets by and large. They then proceeded up and down until in the 70s the Carter administration reluctantly guaranteed their loans. As it turned out Lee Iacocca was able to parlay product in the pipeline (K-cars) and create endless variations on them which resulted in Chrysler paying off the loans ahead of time. Unfortunately it didn't last.
Interesting that now that Ford is facing this mess they haven't gone for loan guarantees (likely knowing this isn't the Carter administration and the fact that the family stock would be on the line) and has instead mortgaged all their factories. If Ford doesn't turn it around in a couple of years there will be no Ford to turn around.
carguy58 - I would imagine Ford won't honor the warranty because it is not a Ford warranty. It was issued by a third party who went bankrupt. Ford is sadly correct to not pick this up. However the dealer who sold the warranty (if it was indeed bought from a dealer) should in all good faith honor it. Doesn't mean they will or that they are legally obligated to do so. It's just good customer service.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
However the dealer who sold the warranty (if it was indeed bought from a dealer) should in all good faith honor it. Doesn't mean they will or that they are legally obligated to do so. It's just good customer service.
That, and the ethical thing for the dealer to do.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Oh that was the Neon that you bought your right those cars(the Neon)weren;t very good reliability wise.
That's putting it LIGHTLY to say the least :lemon:
The Neon is where I derived my (take it to the shop 4 times a year) formula for domestics. And more often than not, its going in for more than one or two fixes.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
...not every Mopar product is a Neon. I was never in the market for a car like the Neon or its competition. I had an awesome 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue that turned out to be one of my best cars. I sold it to my brother 14 years ago and he's still driving it. The M-body was one outstanding product!
But 5 year/ 100K powertrain is no good. Only 5% Americans drive more than 16,000 miles a year (i.e. 80,000 miles in 5 years). Probably, just 1% drive 100,000 miles in 5 years. Something like 7 year/ 100K on powertrain will help.
Actually only 80% on new car buyers KEEP them longer than 5 years. So it is a full, no concern warranty for 80% of the buyers.
If Detroit were to be bailed out again, and took that as an opportunity to focus on their product development, I think it might allow them to bounce back. Unfortunatly, the last time the taxpayers bailed them out, they squandered the opportunity and continued to let Honda/Toyota pass them up.
So it is a full, no concern warranty for 80% of the buyers.
Uhm, no. It's a powertrain warranty. Doesn't do you a bit of good if the motors in your power seats fail, or the paint peels off, or your digital dash quits working.
Well he obviously has a lemon but good god one should be able as service manager of all people should be able to get the problem solved. Sounds more like to me they have a service department problem. Do they have qualified ASE certified mechanics or did they hire day laborers.
Rocky
P.S. see the title Service Manager that makes him nonunion and yes he is a at-will employee and should be fired using GM money to buy Toyota products. I personally think it's more hyperbole than reality but thats my opinion.
The 70% of Japanese Cars made in the U.S. figure comes from the link from the Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association link that I posted in my message. It listed 67%, but the article was a couple of years old. As I stated that figure didn't include the latest Toyota plant in Texas and a couple of others so while it's possible it's not 70% it's easily between 68 and 69%.
Yes, not every Mopar product was built to go into a Neon.
But that just shows how domestics are a big hit or miss situation. I like how Honda and Toyota never go below "average/median" reliablity, no matter which model your looking at. Their entire range is in the positive side. Whereas some manufacturers make there living somewhere between god awful lemons, almost a lemon, poor, and slightly poor.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
31-32% percent still is a significant number when you factor in $9-12,000 per unit for Lexuses, Infiniti's it quickyly adds up into the tens of billions in additional revenue. So yeah 68% of Japanese cars might be made here in the U.S. but the higher-end models generate a lot of artificial profit very fast and that my friend is where your missing the boat and my point.
As a service mgr, he does have access to the shop to get his issues resolved, hell the shop is under his control. That is why when the first truck was "lemoned" (over-generous trade in on his current 06') and he was willing to accept and move on to a brand new one. Thing is, this one has some of the same exact problems (mostly with int. steering shaft, no rear axle whinning, power seat failure or O2 sensors like the 04') and while it is nice to have a "full on" shop on your side, frankly I can understand the frustration. I think the Tundra will be a serious step up from the Sierras and our drivetime with a couple of them two weekends ago were enough to get him on board. The 5.7l V8 is a monster and the turning radius was impressive.
I really believe it will be the product that puts Toyota past GM in world sales. Just one domestic owner at a time. :shades:
...there was a proposal to slap a 100% tariff on Japanese luxury cars. I wonder how many people would be willing to pay $140K+ for an LS460? I imagine there might be a few because Mercedes sells quite a few $100K+ cars. However, I don't think many would bother paying close to $70K for an IS or $80K for an ES.
You do pick the right cars. No wonder you do so well with Detroit cars!
That Fifth Avenue was a darned near impossible car to kill. My dad had one and after he started leasing Caddys he kept the Fifth Avenue around. The last odometer reading I remember on it was 184K and he had it beyond that and it was still running when he sold it. It acted as the "car for whoever in the family was short a car" for quite a while.
My dad isn't the easiest guy in the world on cars so I consider that a pretty good achievement.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Lexus most poplular model (the RX300) is built in Canada.
Infiniti QX56 is built in the United States... The Acura TL is built in the United States..... Various Acuras ( as I showed in my link) are built in Canada
And more and more factories are coming.
But regarding foreign built - what percentage of "Domestics" are built outside the United States?
However, I apologize for claiming that currency manipulation is a non-issue. Here is an article that says that the Michigan Democrats in Congress are claiming that (as you state) currency manipulation is indeed a problem.
However - you're not going to like Toyota's solution: They not going to go out of business as you hope: They're going to build even more cars..... in America, but not in Michigan.
Josephine Cooper, Toyota's group vice president for government and industry affairs, said the company hasn't seen "an appetite for discriminatory actions against foreign-based automakers beyond some in the Michigan delegation. I think you can attribute that to the concern for their companies."
Members of Congress who support domestic automakers concede they face major hurdles. Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., noted that "you can't swing a dead cat in the parking lot (on Capitol Hill) without hitting a Toyota or Honda or a Mitsubishi . I don't believe it's a political problem."
The Camry, after all, remains the nation's top-selling passenger car. Rogers, who grew up in the rural outskirts of Detroit, said he remembered the days when "you did not consider buying a foreign car. Now I think the attitude of America has changed."
The backlash that Toyota fears? From being too successful.
I remember that. I don't think a 100% tariff would ever fly but I am not philosophically opposed to any tariff. Say, enough to make it seem like you are comparing apples to apples.
I don't think, however, in an era when free trade seems to be the mantra coming out of Washington that you would likely see such a thing any time too soon. The current Congress would be more sympathetic than the last one but I still don't think they could get it through and if they did I think the president would veto it.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
he is a at-will employee and should be fired using GM money
Unless GM owns the dealership (which by states' law is pretty much impossible), it's not their money buying a Tundra. Now, if the dealership wants to provide their service manager with a truck in return for his using it as a primary vehicle no matter how many times it breaks down, that's a different matter but still none of GM's business.
They were both his own purchases. Was a diehard GM fan but after the Sierra's? Eh, not so much. His wife has an Envoy or TB (whichever one) extended version, but I believe she has been shopping Highlanders and Pilots as a replacement.
My warranty was purchased from Warranty Gold, the biggest provider of warranties at the time (2000). I believe they were even sold through Toyota and Honda dealers for a while. Didn't go through the dealer (Carmax), got it on my own. Was some very shady dealings going on there. Luckily I paid by credi5t card so I got 80% of my premium back.
I was one of millions who were scammed. It amazed me that it never made news or resulted in indictments
I'm not trying to be a jerk but feel this one currency problem with automobiles also effects thousands of other american business's. How is a small american firm going to compete with the Japanese and Chinese when they start out with such a disadvantage ???? These new entreupeaneurs go under before they get a chance to build their new products. :sick:
I do not think it's asking to much to protect american buisness from unfair advantages like currency issues, excessive healthcare costs, and unfree trade policy's. The more cars made here in the U.S. by Toyota, the better. I welcome internal competition but I do not think foreign business has a right to lobby congress and receive tax incentives from our tax dollars. That should be reserved for american citizen entreupeanurs with new idea's. Our business's don't enjoy perks of selling goods in foreign country's and in most cases a tariff is imposed on our exports. China, makes it next to impossible to sell U.S. exports in their country and pretty much law of the land their is if you want to sell it their then built it there. The Japanese, refuse to buy our products because they are nationalist and the Japanese government has done little to help american company's with trade issues. Maybe we should adopt that same stratedgy to some degree to make them comply ? We have became way to trade friendly and the net result is lost jobs almost 4 million jobs in manufactoring most which were good jobs and millions more in service sectors. You can label me anything you want but you cannot question my patriotism to my country. I want our country to always be the economic superpower but our own corruption of selling off ports, highways, military installations, etc to foreign governments is more than just a national security risk. We refuse to protect our borders even though most americans on the left, right, middle want them protected. I working in national security have learned quite a bit about how savy foreign governments are at gaining access to stuff they have no business knowing. The dirty money they spend to ruin our government for favorable policy's which isn't representing us citizens and voters is at a all time high.
Do I want Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc to compete against the big 3 to improve the consumers products ? You betchya ! I want those products to be all made here. A Mexican made Ford Fusion should be tariffed IMHO !!!! :mad: Auto Parts also should be tariffed if made over sea's. We are the only economy that has the resources in place to be self sufficient and we need to do a better job establishing these ground rules to continue our long-term growth otherwise we will continue to lose and our standard of living will end up in the toilet. We need a well balanced economy and in order to insure that happens we need to save manufactoring jobs and give a level-playing field for american business. Service jobs also are important and instead of educating our own people we back stab our citizens for a foreigner. We have the educational systems in place but we refuse to spend the money.
I want to see these new hybrid battery systems made here in the U.S. some which will be funded with my tax dollars not in Malaysia. Kinda get my point?
We have worried way to much about others and not enough about ourselves. Most american people strongly agree with me. GM, is just one company that is facing these challenges and I hope this 110th Congress gives them and the american people a chance at a fair fight. Right now we are using a knife in a gunfight but I believe a couple swipes of the ink pen in congress to reform our laws would allow us to reach down in our belt and pull out the proper weapon to deal with this gunfight called domestic economics.
-Stupid managemnet decisions to agree to Union contracts that they couldn't afford to take (let management 30 years from now sort it out)
GM, could afford those contracts but when you make cars like the Catera, Aztek, Cimmaron, Cavalier, 80-90s Grand-Am's, Lumina's, Corsica's, Beretta's, Chevette, Cutlass Caila, etc, etc, and buy failing business's sure your going to lose money. No brainer. Just putting all the blame on union workers is unfair they do not sign off on the cars but Getterfinger says the UAW will play a bigger role on signing off on them in the future. Sure the union is to blame for some of the problems but making them fully responsible is absurd. Toyota, as you know is paying roughly $3.00 an hour more than GM to it's UAW employees and their U.S. employees like their Japanese employees also have retirement benefits. Toyota, also is a leaner less top heavy company then any of the big 3. We however recently are seeing changes in cutting white collar excess which is very sad for those folks but is needed. GM executives and top brass had way to many paper pushers assigned to just one task and all those folks had secretary's it was amazing. But back them if a plant made $40 million everyone ate their steak and was happy. Now these plants need to make $140 million or mangement wants to close it. :surprise:
Rockylee - I'm not trying to be a jerk either, but I'm weary of the whining about things that can't be changed...
The currency manipulation that you speak of isn't something that you could change with the throw of a switch. How are you planning to improve the yen/dollar exchange rate?
You're not going to get tariffs even with a Democratic congress AND a Democratic president. America is part of the World Trade Organization. Even if you did, the Japanese have the industrial capacity within the United States to continue their sales march. You're not going to put their factories inside the U.S. out of business because there are hundreds of thousands of AMERICAN jobs tied to those companies. Finally, history is not going to help because the last time America tried tariffs in the 1920's it triggered something you may have heard of - the great depression.
Unionization of the Japanese factories inside the U.S. may happen, but it'll be decades before they find themselves in the same situation as the Big 3. Why? Because their employees are younger. GM can't wait that long.
You're not going to persuade 80 percent of Americans (recall that online survey the other day went 80% to Japanese cars) that GM cars are, on average, just as good as the Japanese cars - until you prove it to them. You don't like 80% - fine call it 40% - I don't care but whatever the percentage, you're not going to change their opinion by singing country songs and showing pictures of Rosa Parks in your commercials.
Now that Toyota is in NASCAR, NASCAR has lost any advertising value to Detroit. Even though the cars bodies have only been Detroit slip covers over spec racers for decades, they were Detroit car racing. Now they're American car racing.(Hey! Built in Kentucky!)
The Japanese got into the U.S. market by building cars that were cheaper but equal in quality to American cars. Timing helped in that the oil shock created a demand for small cars at just the right time. Then the Japanese took the opportunity and started building better and better and better cars.
The Americans had the market and pixxed it away. They built lousy cars in the 70's because they thought they could. The Japanese DID have a currency advantage until the 1980's with a fixed exchange rate of 360 to the dollar - today it's 117 to the dollar.
When the Japanese agreed to voluntary import restrictions to help Detroit in the 80's I thought GM had it's best change. Japanese cars went up in price both for exchange rate reasons for supply reasons. Perfect, I thought. Detroit will lower prices a few hundred dollars and sell their cars for less than the Japanese. But noooooo Detroit raised their prices to make more profit per unit instead capturing sales.
Now Detroit can't lower prices enough to help because the Koreans will always undersell them - or soon, the Chinese -
Detroit's only chance is to build better cars and do things to convince America that their cars are better. The Saturn Aura and the CTS are a good start, the Lacross isn't bad, but GM has to do more one or two good models to get the taste of the Aztek out of everyone's mouth. It's going to take a lot of good models.
They're going have to focus on product, product, product. I've seen someone here advocate dumping all their old models and only keeping the good stuff. Good idea.
I've advocated GM do something DRAMATIC to advertise the quality of their cars.... Race around the world - Run one a million miles without stopping - something, anything.
But whining about how good the other guy has it, ain't changin' nuthin. So stop it, and focus on things that will help.
Do I think that union workers are mostly to blame? No, not at all. In fact, the whole point in a union is to push the employer to give you as much as possible in terms of wages, bennies, and a decent working environment. The Unions just did their jobs. The Big 3 just gave away too much for too long. Regardless of how you look at it, thousands of dollars added per vehicle for "legacy costs" makes no business sense, at least in the long term.
I'll add two more mistakes to my previous three:
-Emphasis on current stock prices and EPS rather than long term corporate health.
-Ignoring problems and shortcomings in the design department. Both mechanically and aesthetically.
The Velite, is scheduled to be built in 2010. It will be unfortunately a Sedan However it should be a nice sedan. Maybe GM, can incorporate a hardtop convertible 2 door for us guys. Well this a according to Motor Trend and they are pretty accurate. So that leaves me with lots of hope for the future.
My plans are furthered narrowed as of right now.
Option-A) pony up and buy a 2007' GMC Sierra Denali Pick-up
Option-B) Buy a 2008' Cadillac CTS this fall.
Option-C) Buy a 2009' CTS-V if release next year this time
and like always these are subject to change. I did make a inquire this evening to a GM dealer about the Sierra Denali, and hopefully I will hear back tomorrow.
Detroit's only chance is to build better cars and do things to convince America that their cars are better. The Saturn Aura and the CTS are a good start, the Lacross isn't bad, but GM has to do more one or two good models to get the taste of the Aztek out of everyone's mouth. It's going to take a lot of good models.
It's gonna take 10-15 years of consistency. It's a little late in the game for kaisen.
As far as I'm concerned, Pandora's box is already opened, adn the Genie ain't goin' back in that bottle!
The best way to stop the Japanese is to not let 'em get started. Why would a Camry/Accord/Tacoma/Civic/Odyssey driver come back?
If, not when, the Japanese screw up, they'll be back, but this is more cyclical than we may realize.
I predict GM will bottom out at 20%, Ford 12%.
Honda could match Ford, if they built trucks.
Toyota is 20%, no problem.
There is no quick fix. It'll get worse, before it gets better. :sick:
Part of me wants to be sympathetic. Most of me knows the domestics don't deserve sympathy.
...not every Mopar product is a Neon. I was never in the market for a car like the Neon or its competition. I had an awesome 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue that turned out to be one of my best cars.
You know one of the challenges facing both Chrysler and GM is that their older, traditional "big boat" cars may be quite good. But how many young buyers want those? High school kids and college kids want economy cars. And that's where GM still is not competitive.
The small car market may not be as profitable, but that's a beancounter approach. By not having competitive small product and taking a "full systems" view, GM is giving the "first car" market to the best manufacturers in that segment - Toyota, Honda, and Mazda. And guess where those buyers go when they need their next car? No offense to older drivers, but grandma buying her Buick or Lincoln isn't going to keep GM competitive with Toyota, no matter how good those large cars are.
There were voluntary import quotas in the 1980's against Japanese makes to "help" the American brands. What did that do?:
- It raised the price of the Japanese cars (supply below demand) - It caused the Japanese makes to import more costly, larger, and feature-laden cards - The American makes, instead of using their advantage to invest in better cars, sat on their thumbs and spun - It ultimately accelerated the market for Japanese makes from economy cars to full lineups, causing even more competition for the American makers
The American makers have been so dense that they needed to go on life support before they'd even wake up and do something. Kudos to GM for recent progress. Ford and Chrysler may not survive.
I do feel healthcare, trade, currency, are very important domestic factors. Obviously more so than you. We all have our opinions and I agree with you that whining only will not solve the issues without picking up your two feet. GM, has done a great job of trying to right the ship and I feel that the whole company is headed for a brighter more prosperous future.
I would like to see the Japanese continue to build more cars here in the U.S. as this is the only way I can insure a more level playing field someday. Yeah maybe one day the UAW, will be able to organize more transplants and get those employees good benefits especially on the retirement side which would help things out. A National healthcare policy would really help level the playing field as it would save billions in retiree healthcare costs for GM.
I'm saying I'm optimistic some of my proposals with bare fruit. Every democrat candidate is for some sort of national healthcare and this is more likely to happen than tariffs. This change would also save the transplants money also but it would really help out the big 3 and thus might encourage more american investments with modern facility's and the UAW has already allowed "work groups/teams" at some plants to multi-task to further cut labor costs. Their is less worker bee employees per plant but the positive result is their would be more plants being built here at home.
Healthcare is the #1 cost for most employers and has to be addressed somehow and sometime soon or otherwise we will continue to see more off-shoring by domestic business which hurts our whole economy.
I do agree GM, needs to do more to promote their vehicals as I have said in the past. Your suggestion for commercials or around the world competitions sound logical and in fact seems like a good idea. I think GM, could do more like offer the BMW plan for free scheduled maintence which would insure the next buyer was getting a well maintained car from a owner like Lemko. I also would like to see GM, raise it's bumper to bumper warranty 5 years 100K which would be transferable and certified used cars get additional warranty to 100K and X number of years. This all would do wonders for residual values and keep dealership service departments very busy and thus would create thousands of mechanic jobs.
One other policy I'd like to see changed at GM, is more corporate over site on bad dealers. Every customer should feel he/she is getting treated fairly and thus should be given a score card to rate dealers and those numbers should be published to allow customers the opportunity to pick the best dealerships. This would pressure all dealers to treat customers good and offer them VIP service every time they walk into a show room or service department. The dealerships need to make the dealership lounges better with small activity centers for kids and adults while they wait for their car being serviced or buying a new car. I always said if I owned a GM dealership I would want my customers to feel like they were important and make sure refreshments were always available. It doesn't cost a lot of money to drastically improve the boring dealership experience.
Customer Service is the most critical area GM, needs to focus on. I like lemko, don't always want a sleazy car salesman following me around the lot badgering me about my trade and car payments off the bat while I and my family might want to browse. The good ones ask the customer if they want to look inside or test drive any of the cars or have any questions or need anything ???? Can I get you a soda perhaps ? Then they should politely say to them if I can help you any way here's my card and I would love to do business with you and if you want my assistance I will be waiting for you inside and feel free to look. If GM car consultants can't meet that standard of professionalism then they shouldn't be employed at a GM franchise.
If I would of won that big lotto I would of purchased several GM dealerships to make changes myself.
I can agree with you lokki, that GM's latest models sure look great. The April Motor Trend issue is a good read into GM's future. A all new DTS is planned for 2011' but I'd like to see GM, move this project ahead of schedule to get this model RWD/AWD and make it have one of the first new Ultra V8's. I want to see the new DTS be as big a a S-class Mercedes with the power and refinement of a hybrid option and a hot limited edition "V" model to take on AMG and add more image. I can't wait until the next STS come out. The G8 in Motor Trend is getting rave reviews.
Like I said the future looks great but I feel the customer service, warranty, maintence, issues could further speed up the recovery efforts and put GM, back in the spotlight and give light to new commercials promoting these improvements. Just maybe the coastal city's will find driving GM, isn't such a sin after all.
Comments
Rocky, despite being a Japanese Car Fan I do agree with you the yen should be adjusted more fairly so its a more level playing field.
"Yeah, we manipulate our currency to the Europeans but 2 wrongs don't make it a right and if we can cheat against them as an american you one can say good for us."
So, in this paragraph I could be responding and saying well for every Opel that GM sells GM could be making as much money possibly on every car sold in Europe that Toyota makes on every car sold here due to the Yen factor. To me 2 wrongs don;t make it right and both the yen and whatever GM makes in Europe should be adjusted.
"So no GM, can't hold on to the #1 spot with all these domestic issues. Currency manipulation, Healthcare, and current trade policy's will not allow that to happen."
Rocky I agree with you on the healthcare, currency minpulation(which GM does too in Europe probably) and current trade policy's but GM has dug their own hole too and thats something you can;t blame the Japanese makes for.
Why reward poor engineering, poor design, poor build quality, poor manufacturing, poor parts, poor pricing, and poor service with government bailouts.
Bad companies like Chrysler should have been allowed to die long ago. If they were allowed to die, maybe we'd have a better US nameplate today by a different name than the Big 3?
They actually had a quite a bit of good to say about GM. If anyone got the shaft, I think it was VW and Chrystler.
How did VW get the shaft? They scored the best average wise of any brand in CR tests but I don;t think CR likes VW because of their lack of good reliability.
I think your wrong about Chrysler. The Germans(not Americans)ran that company into the ground.
How is unionization of foreign plants gonna put things on equal footing? Union officials don;t screw together or assemble a car the workers in the plant do that so is hsving the union in foreign plants gonna change anything?
I know that in 94 I bought one of their "new" products that came from the Chrysler brain "Dodge" included.
That was before the Germans got involved, and let me tell you, I wished they'd of gone out of business before, during, and/or right after I made that bone headed mistake of buying a Chrysler product.
My parents have bought Domestics forever(80's, 90's, and 00's)and my parents domestics have never gone in for warranty work 3 or 4 times a year. We did have 1 lemon from GM but that was like a 1992 car(a Grand AM) and the 88 car(a Pontiac Grand Prix) had a few problems) but that was the first year of bodystyle so your gonna have some first year bugs with first year of a redeigned bodystyle.
"I would think that the average Japanese vehicle needs less warranty work than the average domestic but that isnt the same as saying domestic vehicles are in the shop all the time."
I agree with you there.
Thats fair Chrysler has even been behind Ford and GM in reliability let alone Honda and Toyota.
"Seems to me that they've been in big time trouble for the past 30 years?"
Thats true they are very up and down saleswise in the past 2 and a half decades.
"That was before the Germans got involved, and let me tell you, I wished they'd of gone out of business before, during, and/or right after I made that bone headed mistake of buying a Chrysler product."
Oh that was the Neon that you bought your right those cars(the Neon)weren;t very good reliability wise.
What Ford didn;t honor the extended warranty? What exactly happened that led to Ford not honoring the extended warranty. Its because they went bankrupt? I would think a warranty is a warranty and the manfacturer has to honor it no matter what.
So will a 2008 redeign be in thw works for the Equinox then?
Interesting that now that Ford is facing this mess they haven't gone for loan guarantees (likely knowing this isn't the Carter administration and the fact that the family stock would be on the line) and has instead mortgaged all their factories. If Ford doesn't turn it around in a couple of years there will be no Ford to turn around.
carguy58 - I would imagine Ford won't honor the warranty because it is not a Ford warranty. It was issued by a third party who went bankrupt. Ford is sadly correct to not pick this up. However the dealer who sold the warranty (if it was indeed bought from a dealer) should in all good faith honor it. Doesn't mean they will or that they are legally obligated to do so. It's just good customer service.
That, and the ethical thing for the dealer to do.
That's putting it LIGHTLY to say the least :lemon:
The Neon is where I derived my (take it to the shop 4 times a year) formula for domestics. And more often than not, its going in for more than one or two fixes.
Gee - when it happens to a Toyota (the Camry), you Domestic fans swear that they're making trash....
Actually only 80% on new car buyers KEEP them longer than 5 years. So it is a full, no concern warranty for 80% of the buyers.
Detroiit has never been bailed out. Only Chrylser
Where di 70% come from? Last year Toyota almost 50% of their sales were imported from Japan.
Uhm, no. It's a powertrain warranty. Doesn't do you a bit of good if the motors in your power seats fail, or the paint peels off, or your digital dash quits working.
Rocky
P.S. see the title Service Manager that makes him nonunion and yes he is a at-will employee and should be fired using GM money to buy Toyota products. I personally think it's more hyperbole than reality but thats my opinion.
The 70% of Japanese Cars made in the U.S. figure comes from the link from the Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Association link that I posted in my message. It listed 67%, but the article was a couple of years old. As I stated that figure didn't include the latest Toyota plant in Texas and a couple of others so while it's possible it's not 70% it's easily between 68 and 69%.
But that just shows how domestics are a big hit or miss situation. I like how Honda and Toyota never go below "average/median" reliablity, no matter which model your looking at. Their entire range is in the positive side. Whereas some manufacturers make there living somewhere between god awful lemons, almost a lemon, poor, and slightly poor.
Rocky
Rocky
I really believe it will be the product that puts Toyota past GM in world sales. Just one domestic owner at a time. :shades:
That Fifth Avenue was a darned near impossible car to kill. My dad had one and after he started leasing Caddys he kept the Fifth Avenue around. The last odometer reading I remember on it was 184K and he had it beyond that and it was still running when he sold it. It acted as the "car for whoever in the family was short a car" for quite a while.
My dad isn't the easiest guy in the world on cars so I consider that a pretty good achievement.
Lexus most poplular model (the RX300) is built in Canada.
Infiniti QX56 is built in the United States...
The Acura TL is built in the United States.....
Various Acuras ( as I showed in my link) are built in Canada
And more and more factories are coming.
But regarding foreign built - what percentage of "Domestics" are built outside the United States?
However, I apologize for claiming that currency manipulation is a non-issue. Here is an article that says that the Michigan Democrats in Congress are claiming that (as you state) currency manipulation is indeed a problem.
However - you're not going to like Toyota's solution: They not going to go out of business as you hope: They're going to build even more cars..... in America, but not in Michigan.
Toyota may Face Backlash from Congress
Here's the money quote from the article:
Josephine Cooper, Toyota's group vice president for government and industry affairs, said the company hasn't seen "an appetite for discriminatory actions against foreign-based automakers beyond some in the Michigan delegation. I think you can attribute that to the concern for their companies."
Members of Congress who support domestic automakers concede they face major hurdles. Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., noted that "you can't swing a dead cat in the parking lot (on Capitol Hill) without hitting a Toyota or Honda or a Mitsubishi . I don't believe it's a political problem."
The Camry, after all, remains the nation's top-selling passenger car. Rogers, who grew up in the rural outskirts of Detroit, said he remembered the days when "you did not consider buying a foreign car. Now I think the attitude of America has changed."
The backlash that Toyota fears? From being too successful.
I don't think, however, in an era when free trade seems to be the mantra coming out of Washington that you would likely see such a thing any time too soon. The current Congress would be more sympathetic than the last one but I still don't think they could get it through and if they did I think the president would veto it.
Interesting reading, I thought....
Unless GM owns the dealership (which by states' law is pretty much impossible), it's not their money buying a Tundra. Now, if the dealership wants to provide their service manager with a truck in return for his using it as a primary vehicle no matter how many times it breaks down, that's a different matter but still none of GM's business.
I was one of millions who were scammed. It amazed me that it never made news or resulted in indictments
-Most of those who were burned by the horrible products of the 70s,80s, and 90's will likely never go back
-Stupid managemnet decisions to agree to Union contracts that they couldn't afford to take (let management 30 years from now sort it out)
-Short term product focus. Chosing to sink all of their efforts into making pickups and large SUV's, which are now falling out of favor
60% built inside of the US:3,722,000 units
40% outside the US: 2,743,000 units
I'm not trying to be a jerk but feel this one currency problem with automobiles also effects thousands of other american business's. How is a small american firm going to compete with the Japanese and Chinese when they start out with such a disadvantage ???? These new entreupeaneurs go under before they get a chance to build their new products. :sick:
I do not think it's asking to much to protect american buisness from unfair advantages like currency issues, excessive healthcare costs, and unfree trade policy's. The more cars made here in the U.S. by Toyota, the better.
We have became way to trade friendly and the net result is lost jobs almost 4 million jobs in manufactoring most which were good jobs and millions more in service sectors. You can label me anything you want but you cannot question my patriotism to my country. I want our country to always be the economic superpower but our own corruption of selling off ports, highways, military installations, etc to foreign governments is more than just a national security risk. We refuse to protect our borders even though most americans on the left, right, middle want them protected. I working in national security have learned quite a bit about how savy foreign governments are at gaining access to stuff they have no business knowing. The dirty money they spend to ruin our government for favorable policy's which isn't representing us citizens and voters is at a all time high.
Do I want Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc to compete against the big 3 to improve the consumers products ? You betchya ! I want those products to be all made here. A Mexican made Ford Fusion should be tariffed IMHO !!!! :mad: Auto Parts also should be tariffed if made over sea's. We are the only economy that has the resources in place to be self sufficient and we need to do a better job establishing these ground rules to continue our long-term growth otherwise we will continue to lose and our standard of living will end up in the toilet. We need a well balanced economy and in order to insure that happens we need to save manufactoring jobs and give a level-playing field for american business. Service jobs also are important and instead of educating our own people we back stab our citizens for a foreigner. We have the educational systems in place but we refuse to spend the money.
I want to see these new hybrid battery systems made here in the U.S. some which will be funded with my tax dollars not in Malaysia. Kinda get my point?
We have worried way to much about others and not enough about ourselves. Most american people strongly agree with me. GM, is just one company that is facing these challenges and I hope this 110th Congress gives them and the american people a chance at a fair fight. Right now we are using a knife in a gunfight but I believe a couple swipes of the ink pen in congress to reform our laws would allow us to reach down in our belt and pull out the proper weapon to deal with this gunfight called domestic economics.
Thanks for listening to my little rant.
Rocky
GM, could afford those contracts but when you make cars like the Catera, Aztek, Cimmaron, Cavalier, 80-90s Grand-Am's, Lumina's, Corsica's, Beretta's, Chevette, Cutlass Caila, etc, etc, and buy failing business's sure your going to lose money. No brainer.
Rocky
Rocky
I'm not trying to be a jerk either, but I'm weary of the whining about things that can't be changed...
The currency manipulation that you speak of isn't something that you could change with the throw of a switch. How are you planning to improve the yen/dollar exchange rate?
You're not going to get tariffs even with a Democratic congress AND a Democratic president. America is part of the World Trade Organization. Even if you did, the Japanese have the industrial capacity within the United States to continue their sales march. You're not going to put their factories inside the U.S. out of business because there are hundreds of thousands of AMERICAN jobs tied to those companies. Finally, history is not going to help because the last time America tried tariffs in the 1920's it triggered something you may have heard of - the great depression.
Unionization of the Japanese factories inside the U.S. may happen, but it'll be decades before they find themselves in the same situation as the Big 3. Why? Because their employees are younger. GM can't wait that long.
You're not going to persuade 80 percent of Americans (recall that online survey the other day went 80% to Japanese cars) that GM cars are, on average, just as good as the Japanese cars - until you prove it to them. You don't like 80% - fine call it 40% - I don't care but whatever the percentage, you're not going to change their opinion by singing country songs and showing pictures of Rosa Parks in your commercials.
Now that Toyota is in NASCAR, NASCAR has lost any advertising value to Detroit. Even though the cars bodies have only been Detroit slip covers over spec racers for decades, they were Detroit car racing. Now they're American car racing.(Hey! Built in Kentucky!)
The Japanese got into the U.S. market by building cars that were cheaper but equal in quality to American cars. Timing helped in that the oil shock created a demand for small cars at just the right time. Then the Japanese took the opportunity and started building better and better and better cars.
The Americans had the market and pixxed it away. They built lousy cars in the 70's because they thought they could. The Japanese DID have a currency advantage until the 1980's with a fixed exchange rate of 360 to the dollar - today it's 117 to the dollar.
When the Japanese agreed to voluntary import restrictions to help Detroit in the 80's I thought GM had it's best change. Japanese cars went up in price both for exchange rate reasons for supply reasons. Perfect, I thought. Detroit will lower prices a few hundred dollars and sell their cars for less than the Japanese. But noooooo Detroit raised their prices to make more profit per unit instead capturing sales.
Now Detroit can't lower prices enough to help because the Koreans will always undersell them - or soon, the Chinese -
Detroit's only chance is to build better cars and do things to convince America that their cars are better. The Saturn Aura and the CTS are a good start, the Lacross isn't bad, but GM has to do more one or two good models to get the taste of the Aztek out of everyone's mouth. It's going to take a lot of good models.
They're going have to focus on product, product, product. I've seen someone here advocate dumping all their old models and only keeping the good stuff. Good idea.
I've advocated GM do something DRAMATIC to advertise the quality of their cars.... Race around the world - Run one a million miles without stopping - something, anything.
But whining about how good the other guy has it, ain't changin' nuthin. So stop it, and focus on things that will help.
That's my rant, and thanks for listening.
I'll add two more mistakes to my previous three:
-Emphasis on current stock prices and EPS rather than long term corporate health.
-Ignoring problems and shortcomings in the design department. Both mechanically and aesthetically.
It will be unfortunately a Sedan
My plans are furthered narrowed as of right now.
Option-A) pony up and buy a 2007' GMC Sierra Denali Pick-up
Option-B) Buy a 2008' Cadillac CTS this fall.
Option-C) Buy a 2009' CTS-V if release next year this time
and like always these are subject to change. I did make a inquire this evening to a GM dealer about the Sierra Denali, and hopefully I will hear back tomorrow.
Rocky
It's gonna take 10-15 years of consistency. It's a little late in the game for kaisen.
As far as I'm concerned, Pandora's box is already opened, adn the Genie ain't goin' back in that bottle!
The best way to stop the Japanese is to not let 'em get started. Why would a Camry/Accord/Tacoma/Civic/Odyssey driver come back?
If, not when, the Japanese screw up, they'll be back, but this is more cyclical than we may realize.
I predict GM will bottom out at 20%, Ford 12%.
Honda could match Ford, if they built trucks.
Toyota is 20%, no problem.
There is no quick fix. It'll get worse, before it gets better. :sick:
Part of me wants to be sympathetic. Most of me knows the domestics don't deserve sympathy.
DrFill
Sounds like you need to decide whether you want a full-size truck or a sport sedan...
;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You know one of the challenges facing both Chrysler and GM is that their older, traditional "big boat" cars may be quite good. But how many young buyers want those? High school kids and college kids want economy cars. And that's where GM still is not competitive.
The small car market may not be as profitable, but that's a beancounter approach. By not having competitive small product and taking a "full systems" view, GM is giving the "first car" market to the best manufacturers in that segment - Toyota, Honda, and Mazda. And guess where those buyers go when they need their next car? No offense to older drivers, but grandma buying her Buick or Lincoln isn't going to keep GM competitive with Toyota, no matter how good those large cars are.
Detroiit has never been bailed out. Only Chrylser
There were voluntary import quotas in the 1980's against Japanese makes to "help" the American brands. What did that do?:
- It raised the price of the Japanese cars (supply below demand)
- It caused the Japanese makes to import more costly, larger, and feature-laden cards
- The American makes, instead of using their advantage to invest in better cars, sat on their thumbs and spun
- It ultimately accelerated the market for Japanese makes from economy cars to full lineups, causing even more competition for the American makers
The American makers have been so dense that they needed to go on life support before they'd even wake up and do something. Kudos to GM for recent progress. Ford and Chrysler may not survive.
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070309/AUTO01/703090400/1148
I do feel healthcare, trade, currency, are very important domestic factors. Obviously more so than you. We all have our opinions and I agree with you that whining only will not solve the issues without picking up your two feet. GM, has done a great job of trying to right the ship and I feel that the whole company is headed for a brighter more prosperous future.
I would like to see the Japanese continue to build more cars here in the U.S. as this is the only way I can insure a more level playing field someday. Yeah maybe one day the UAW, will be able to organize more transplants and get those employees good benefits especially on the retirement side which would help things out. A National healthcare policy would really help level the playing field as it would save billions in retiree healthcare costs for GM.
I'm saying I'm optimistic some of my proposals with bare fruit. Every democrat candidate is for some sort of national healthcare and this is more likely to happen than tariffs. This change would also save the transplants money also but it would really help out the big 3 and thus might encourage more american investments with modern facility's and the UAW has already allowed "work groups/teams" at some plants to multi-task to further cut labor costs. Their is less worker bee employees per plant but the positive result is their would be more plants being built here at home.
Healthcare is the #1 cost for most employers and has to be addressed somehow and sometime soon or otherwise we will continue to see more off-shoring by domestic business which hurts our whole economy.
I do agree GM, needs to do more to promote their vehicals as I have said in the past. Your suggestion for commercials or around the world competitions sound logical and in fact seems like a good idea. I think GM, could do more like offer the BMW plan for free scheduled maintence which would insure the next buyer was getting a well maintained car from a owner like Lemko.
One other policy I'd like to see changed at GM, is more corporate over site on bad dealers. Every customer should feel he/she is getting treated fairly and thus should be given a score card to rate dealers and those numbers should be published to allow customers the opportunity to pick the best dealerships. This would pressure all dealers to treat customers good and offer them VIP service every time they walk into a show room or service department. The dealerships need to make the dealership lounges better with small activity centers for kids and adults while they wait for their car being serviced or buying a new car.
Customer Service is the most critical area GM, needs to focus on. I like lemko, don't always want a sleazy car salesman following me around the lot badgering me about my trade and car payments off the bat while I and my family might want to browse. The good ones ask the customer if they want to look inside or test drive any of the cars or have any questions or need anything ???? Can I get you a soda perhaps ? Then they should politely say to them if I can help you any way here's my card and I would love to do business with you and if you want my assistance I will be waiting for you inside and feel free to look. If GM car consultants can't meet that standard of professionalism then they shouldn't be employed at a GM franchise.
If I would of won that big lotto I would of purchased several GM dealerships to make changes myself.
I can agree with you lokki, that GM's latest models sure look great. The April Motor Trend issue is a good read into GM's future. A all new DTS is planned for 2011' but I'd like to see GM, move this project ahead of schedule to get this model RWD/AWD and make it have one of the first new Ultra V8's. I want to see the new DTS be as big a a S-class Mercedes with the power and refinement of a hybrid option and a hot limited edition "V" model to take on AMG and add more image. I can't wait until the next STS come out. The G8 in Motor Trend is getting rave reviews.
Like I said the future looks great but I feel the customer service, warranty, maintence, issues could further speed up the recovery efforts and put GM, back in the spotlight and give light to new commercials promoting these improvements. Just maybe the coastal city's will find driving GM, isn't such a sin after all.
Rocky