Are you in the market for a new or used vehicle and having difficulty finding something in your budget? Or are you finding yourself making trade-offs to find something you can afford (i.e. less cargo space, lower trim level). A reporter from a national news publication would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by this Friday, 11/21 for details.
General Motors discussions
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I bought an Accord SE V6. Best car money can buy for under $30K and they can be had for under $23K -- such a deal.
-Loren
Everyone would love to make more money working on any job. If a company makes more money by selling a favored product, it would be wonderful to see them share some of those profits. Car companies will do that with bonuses. To demand a wage which can not be supported however makes little sense. Keeping GM profitable is so important to the UAW, working together to come up with a solution has to happen for worker to hold on to jobs long term.
If the UAW and GM come up with a way to produce cars people want to buy and make a profit while providing them, so be it. GM making desirable cars, like in the later 60's could become a reality. This is up to the UAW and GM to pull-off and not Toyota. Blaming the competition is pointless.
Toyota does hire American workers and builds cars here in USA. GM builds cars here in USA. GM builds a better, more desirable auto than the competition - becomes very profitable - workers make money, and all is well. No problem. UAW says their work force is the best, and they build the most reliable cars right here in USA -- once again no problem. From management, to design, on down to production line, if it all works, then fine.
GM using sales of SUVs and trucks as a safe harbor = another setup for failure.
As for steel mils, are there not many new modern mills across the USA today? The less productive mills closed years ago, I thought. Could be wrong on that.
-Loren
If/when we look for a smaller second car, I can assure you we won't consider a Cobalt after this experience. We could just imagine a Cobalt after 150K, which my wife had on one Corolla that was still running well, but didn't have air bags and other more modern safety features. And our similar experiences with Fords we've owned (ok to start but put miles on them and they cost), and my father's continuing difficulties with Chrysler products have convinced us that Toyota and Honda are the way to go.
Unfortunately, it's more the management and ownership of the US manufacturers that have led us to not buying from them. Many "foreign" cars are made in the US by US workers, so we can't blame the workers. Yet for folks like us who want a dependable, solid and reliable vehicle for many years, the US makers have lost us. And price will not win us back, the standard needs to be quality, reliability and dependability. So far the US makers just aren't up to it. I know I kept trying to buy "American" but it just wasn't worth it.
If anyone should be showing abandoned plants as part of truth in advertising it would be GM, They are closing plants and using less steel. Toyota is building plants and increasing its use of American Steel.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am guessing GM is moving slowly because GM does not make money on this midsize sedans. Trying to offer something as good as Camry/ Accord without raising the price would further hurt profits. GM needs to find a way to sell large number of sedans profitably, and give Toyota a run for the money.
Malibu, G6, LaCrosse and Aura together offer GM a huge volume in the US market for midsize sedans. GM needs to figure out a solid strategy to rule this market. Youthful cars with clean interiors and standard safety features can do the job.
Substantial argument: D-
You are trying to say the Camry is the victim of it's own success, which is inaccurate. It is not a 1996 Taurus, and it is easily the #1 car in America.
Bashing the Camry is like bashing Tiger Woods for winning 1 major this year instead of 3. :confuse:
People don't buy Camrys to be inspired by them, or to be awestruck. Considering how long it has lead the industry, and the lead grows, not shrinks, should give you a clue.
Camry buyers just want a well-thought out, quality ride, a car short on weaknesses. If you have evidence that this is not a Camry, please feel free to present it.
DrFill
That's what I've gotten from my GM cars. I don't understand why some think the Camry is special or unique.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
This from a guy who admits he's never driven one.
I guess no minds will really be changed here. Each thinks the other is wrong.
If GM built a car lower-priced than a Camry or Accord, and every magazine said what a great car GM had, some people still wouldn't buy it.
I learned about twenty years ago that some people who claim to be the most open-minded, are actually the most closed minded. Logical discussions are met with eye-rolling and head-shaking.
End of my posts on this particular topic.
Bill
Once burned, twice shy. I have owned many Accords and all were good cars. Now I own two Toyotas and they have been more reliable than the 3 GM vehicles (1 car/2 trucks/1 minivan).
I think I fall into the category you describe above. I like GM as a company, but I need to have something reliable to get me to work everyday.
I'd sure like to see them do it.
What I do tire of is this argument that GM sucked in this segment for 20 years but it doesn't in the past couple so everyone should come back. It took a long time for them to lose their huge base. It will take a long time to get it back. People that drive Camrys aren't stupid. There is a mix of things that make it appealing to a huge segment of the market. I'm not one of them but that doesn't matter. GM would do well to finally admit, as Ford has, that they should be studying Toyota and applying lessons learned.
GM is getting what it deserves, as is Toyota. Same in full-size trucks. Tundra will not sell 800k Tundras anytime soon. It may take 10-15 years.
The difference is Toyota WILL wait and invest in their future.
Apathy was the unofficial name of GMs long-term strategy.
They reap what they sow. :sick:
DrFill
How about some real info. i met a GM guy yesterday who is working in Russia. GM sales there are increasing quickly. GM is also increasing sales throughout the globe. Pretty much the only places they are going backwards is the US and Canada.
We sitting here may be forgetting that sales are increasing elsewhere.
There's something to think about. From a corporate standpoint, does it make more sense for GM to throw its full resources into a prideful attempt to regain its lost glory at home, or to work on building new glory in growing markets and give North America the leftovers? I think they've already decided on the latter- China gets better Buicks than we do; Europe gets smaller cars worth their weight; even the "new" trucks are just reskins inside and out.
yes that is correct, they are exactly the same, the only thing that is different is the exterior and the interior :confuse:
I test-drove Camry, Accord, Altima, Mazda6. I liked Mazda6 styling --- sort of cool car for the price. However, I felt that Accord's 4 cyl was more smooth, and so settled for Accord.
I will definitely test-drive Sonata and Malibu (next generation) before I replace my other car which happens to be a Mazda Protege (I love the car, and I am disappointed that Mazda dropped the Protege nameplate --- I bought this beautiful 2002 Protege LS equipped with CD, Sunroof, Alloy wheels, side airbags, etc. for just $15K after getting rid of my S10).
If a GM guy is gonna bash Toyota Camry, they better bring a gun to that fight, that's all.
Don't spit into the wind. :confuse:
DrFill
-Loren
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Between Cadillac, Corvette and some popular SUV and trucks, it looks like GM is in a better place than is Ford. If you look at what sells for a good profit, while not available from say Toyota, then perhaps you get a clue as to direction for GM. Or should I say a direction, IMHO, they should take. Keep up a good line of trucks, concentrate on a few models of SUVs with gas mileage in mind, and by all means get special products out to the market like the fantastic Corvette, and that unique CTS.
-Loren
-Loren
Actually they are becoming all the same cars. Many of the russian vehicles are built here in the US, shipped overseas, broken down and then rebuilt in Russia. These are the Cadillacs and Saabs.
The Chinese cars are also based on the global platforms. They are just built for the specific Chinese market. The LaCrosse is the same platform but has a more upscale interior and back seat because it is sold as a higher end vehicle/limo.
-loren
I don't work for GM. I'm only one person. Maybe I could get a discount on a new one if I did work for GM. I just find that sitting in two Accords last week that the seats weren't good and the interior was all hard plastic. I got into my LeSabre and felt all around on the door ledge, armrest, instrument panel, center armrest, and felt like I was home with all the soft plastics.
I do not know if there is a more deluxe model with better interior. I was sitting and critiquing and the salesman left me alone. I sat in an Aura XR the week before: nice. Much nicer than the two Accords, which is somewhat like you said-but pricier and new and discounts will be less than Accords. I did not see a lower model Aura on the floor.
Toyota Camry testing later this week if I can get by when the deal is open. I have trouble with the Camry appearance; it's as overstated trying to be BMWesque as it was understated in the previous model-just different skin.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Good question. What about Tercel, Paseo, T100, Supra, Celica, MR2....? Toyota has renamed many vehicles as well and killed names. Did you forget about these?
You have a LeSabre? I learned to drive in a '61, I think the year was, LeSabre. My Dad bought it used, and it had special sound proofing done to it when new. Classy ride back when. Of course that V8 would use so much gas today, it would break one financially.
-Loren
Are you actually suggesting we support inefficient producers and penalize companies who learn to make things more efficiently?
This sounds a bit like the old Eastern Europe. And we know how their economies fared.
Can't argue with you there. I'm not crazy about teh new design Camry either. No denying tat appearance is up there in the total equation.
I have real trouble with that closed plants and such angle. Who is closing plants in the US? Who is building them? Who is laying off workers in the US? Who is hiring them?
Once productive auto workers in poverty? They paid them off pretty well to go away. If a supposedly skilled auto worker has blown his severance package and is unwilling to move to where the jobs are and compete I can't help that. I certainly can't help that by buying a car I consider to be less than the competitors.
Again, if I were buying big RWD cars like you do it would be a different story.
To bad we are likely not to see a 2.9 turbo diesel. :sick:
The 4-door Elcamino isn't my cup of tea. I did enjoy the 2-mode hybrid chart.
Rocky
Maybe a little. But sales might remain about flat. That's because while these new strong products gain momentum, GM will cancel slow selling models, and cut back production of those that sell with big incentives currently. This results in same number of sales but more profit and stronger position for GM. Well, I hope this is what will happen. I certainly don't want GM to flood the market with supply more than the market demands and then offer incentives, just to remain number 1. GM must learn from its mistakes.
I have to disagree with you the Infinti G35 is heavy competition since both the CTs and G35 are RWD cars.
"Now consider the Cobalt vs. Japan and Hyundai cars -- is that a car GM will win the game with? It has to be different and has to sell for a profit."
The Cobalt outsells the Elantra I think. What do you mean(I think you meant the Cobalt) has to be different than its comopeiton. What do you suggest GM does to differentiate the Cobalt its from competitors?
"Still would like to see some more of the old Body by Fisher style dominance, like in the later 60's, when they just could not lose."
The 60's are long gone for styling so they(GM) are not going for any kind of 60's styling unless we are talking about bringing the Camaro back with retro styling.
"Trust me, some changes like product, and perhaps a national health care plan + concessions from the UAW, all have to come together. It may indeed all happen."
I sgree it could happen for GM.
Yeah the Aura could be cannibilizing G6 sales but than again GM is reducing sales to rental fleets so thus G6 sales might be down because of GM's strategy to downsize sales to rental fleets.
Thats weird I still find the 07 Camry "understated" style wise. Where I have problems with the camry;s is the understated back end design and the pig snout grille. Still the 07 Camry exterior is way better than that of the 02-06 Camry exterior.
As far as comparing Aura to Accord both have very nice interiors but both of them(even me being a Honda fan) the styling of the Accord and the Aura as well just doesn;t click with me.
The Cobalt, is another Japan, or Korean like car. Some new styled car, with perhaps the RWD, as a near BMW3 series car would have more appeal. Hope they are making a good markup on the Cobalts, if like you mentioned they are selling. Perhaps not a bad car, though not sure about reliability. I am thinking more of something which could be priced a bit higher, sell with little discounting and be uniquely GM 2008, with some performance along the way.
No, I did not mean to infer that they bring back cars as clones of the past or replicars. Gosh, one of those is enough. I wasn't clear I guess. I meant bring back cars as well done as those of the best of Body by Fisher years, as in dominating the best of styling for American made and hopefully World domination. There is a lot of talent I would think, just waiting to design the next best thing. The Solstice shows that there are some people working hard at styling cars for GM. What happened to a coupe version of that car? Pics from the show looked pretty awesome. What happened to the Chevy Nomad? Maybe the slow down of the Dodge Magnum indicates that there is not a lot of demand for station wagons these days?
-Loren
I agree the 03-07 CTS it didn;t beat anybody on the track
and did sell well with the Art & Science look.
"The G35 is to compete by way of bang for buck, Euro look, and performance at a discount without having any real uniqueness to it. It is more like a Passat or something."
I agree it does sell on a bang for buck but the exterior styling does look unique though. I have never heard of a G35 being compared to a Passat. Can you please tell me more in detail tell me how the G35 is like a Passat.?
"The Cobalt, is another Japan, or Korean like car."
I still don;t see the big problem with the Cobalt since there are only 2 other compact cars that outsell it.
"Some new styled car, with perhaps the RWD, as a near BMW3 series car would have more appeal."
So where do you suggest this new RWD car that is near BMW 3 Series in size be priced at and what GM brand does the BMW 3 Series sized vehicle belong in?
"No, I did not mean to infer that they bring back cars as clones of the past or replicars. Gosh, one of those is enough. I wasn't clear I guess. I meant bring back cars as well done as those of the best of Body by Fisher years, as in dominating the best of styling for American made and hopefully World domination."
Oh Ok I got your point on the body by fisher years subject.
"The Solstice shows that there are some people working hard at styling cars for GM."
I agree again.
"What happened to a coupe version of that car?
Whatever happen to a coupe version of the Solstice? Well my thinking is Pontiac already has the G6 Coupe so maybe GM felt like Pontiac didn;t need another coupe in its line-up. Finally, too add in another point I don;t know if the GTO just flopped had something to do with the Solstice coupe not being brought to the NA market but than maybe GM didn't want another high priced coupe in its line-up. "Rockylee" who is a regular poster on GM threads on Edmunds said the GTO will be back though in sometime anyway.
"What happened to the Chevy Nomad? Maybe the slow down of the Dodge Magnum indicates that there is not a lot of demand for station wagons these days?"
No, there isn;t a big market for station wagons these days.
Well Im from New Jersey and I do know about the Linden plant being shut down a few years back but I didn;t know about the GM plant in Mahwah. What kind of cars did GM make in Mahwah? As for the old Ford plant that is that the one in Edison that you are reffering too? You know Hyundai was once interested in making cars at the old Ford plant in Edison after Ford had left it but nothing came of it.
What to do with Pontiac and Buick? Lots of dealerships to satisfy. Perhaps a merger of the two as a New Star, or something dealerships selling a premium line of Chevy like cars, or should I say near Cadillac cars??? Chevy has the Corvette, so performance should be able to live there, as well as with Pontiac. Seems like Pontiac was half Chevy and Buick/Olds anyway. Glad I don't have the problems a CEO must have, as they have more dealerships now than cars which people will be buying. How do you downsize with as little pain as possible? A marriage of Ponti and Buick would make sense percentage wise, and many already sell that pair. Down the road, the merged pair could be sold alongside the Cadillac line. I see Cadillac and Saab are together in my town. I wonder how Saab is doing?
Anyway, Cadillac and the new merged, plus Chevy, Chevy Performance, and Chevy/GMC trucks makes sense to me. Saturn could be the Import division, as well as, making Saturns here in the States.
-Loren
There is absolutely no good reason why a base Aura should weigh 600 pounds more than a 1992 Camry.
bumpy, the answer to that question is crystal clear pal. The 92' Camry had seats and a plastic dash my 1 year old daughter could tear apart with her bare hands.
The thickness of the steel on the painted metal? body panels were about Campbells soup can thick.
I hope that explains were that extra 600 lbs. of good weight came from. :P
Rocky
huh ? Loren, what's years away ? I guess 2 years away is a long time ? G8 is RWD. 09' Impala, is RWD, 2010 Buick Velite Sedan is RWD. 2011 DTS/Lucerne is RWD, 09' Camaro, and I'm sure a few others will follow like a G10......
Rocky
Loren, last time I checked the Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Infiniti G35 were ELLPS's
Rocky
How can you be so sure 62 ? The Velite could possibly replace the LaCrosse, but I'd hope buick would keep the LaCrosse as the entry-level car like the CTS. The Velite, becomes like the STS, and the Lucerne, is like the DTS.
Rocky
That's good to hear.
Rocky
Rocky