Well the exterior looks awful and the interior somewhat cheap. The engine will not be as refined as the Japanese car. Resale is horrible. Rental car image. Can't see why I would want to test drive one. No way would it handle like an Accord.
I bought an Accord SE V6. Best car money can buy for under $30K and they can be had for under $23K -- such a deal. -Loren
I remember that the 6 volt electrical system made starting a real problem is cold weather. Even in warm weather one always wondered if it was going to start. When my parents got a 63 Impala for a second car, it was more reliable.
Was it Toyota's fault that the cost of UAW labor got too high to support any profit level in a GM car? Should they have told the works to save a portion of their wages since the economics of so many non-working liabilities of GM would one day make drain all the money from golden goose? Toyota did not build, nor design cars which the American public did not choose to drive.
Everyone would love to make more money working on any job. If a company makes more money by selling a favored product, it would be wonderful to see them share some of those profits. Car companies will do that with bonuses. To demand a wage which can not be supported however makes little sense. Keeping GM profitable is so important to the UAW, working together to come up with a solution has to happen for worker to hold on to jobs long term.
If the UAW and GM come up with a way to produce cars people want to buy and make a profit while providing them, so be it. GM making desirable cars, like in the later 60's could become a reality. This is up to the UAW and GM to pull-off and not Toyota. Blaming the competition is pointless.
Toyota does hire American workers and builds cars here in USA. GM builds cars here in USA. GM builds a better, more desirable auto than the competition - becomes very profitable - workers make money, and all is well. No problem. UAW says their work force is the best, and they build the most reliable cars right here in USA -- once again no problem. From management, to design, on down to production line, if it all works, then fine.
GM using sales of SUVs and trucks as a safe harbor = another setup for failure.
As for steel mils, are there not many new modern mills across the USA today? The less productive mills closed years ago, I thought. Could be wrong on that. -Loren
We just returned a Cobalt rental we had for almost 2 months while our 2006 Highlander Hybrid was in the body shop thanks to a fool who made an illegal left turn in front of my wife. The Cobalt had fewer miles than our Highlander, yet is was full of creaks, rattles and bumps. Before buying the Highlander my wife was a Corolla driver and, while liking the smaller size she was not impressed with the Cobalt compared to a Corolla. And while you could say it was because it was a rental, I disagree. While on vacation we had a chance to rent a newer Highlander Hybrid, with more miles than ours, yet it was just as smooth, quiet, comfortable and solid as the one we own.
If/when we look for a smaller second car, I can assure you we won't consider a Cobalt after this experience. We could just imagine a Cobalt after 150K, which my wife had on one Corolla that was still running well, but didn't have air bags and other more modern safety features. And our similar experiences with Fords we've owned (ok to start but put miles on them and they cost), and my father's continuing difficulties with Chrysler products have convinced us that Toyota and Honda are the way to go.
Unfortunately, it's more the management and ownership of the US manufacturers that have led us to not buying from them. Many "foreign" cars are made in the US by US workers, so we can't blame the workers. Yet for folks like us who want a dependable, solid and reliable vehicle for many years, the US makers have lost us. And price will not win us back, the standard needs to be quality, reliability and dependability. So far the US makers just aren't up to it. I know I kept trying to buy "American" but it just wasn't worth it.
If Camry's reputation is working against it Toyota will want more of that. It's still the best selling car in the country.
If anyone should be showing abandoned plants as part of truth in advertising it would be GM, They are closing plants and using less steel. Toyota is building plants and increasing its use of American Steel.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
So summing up, when you were car shopping and said you were seriously considering an Aura, you weren't really, were you, now that I read your attitude toward American can makers?
I agree. Current Malibu is far behind Camry/ Accord. It would be interesting to see where GM takes the next Malibu. Toyota wants a bigger share of the truck market. Does GM not want a bigger share of the car market?
I am guessing GM is moving slowly because GM does not make money on this midsize sedans. Trying to offer something as good as Camry/ Accord without raising the price would further hurt profits. GM needs to find a way to sell large number of sedans profitably, and give Toyota a run for the money.
Malibu, G6, LaCrosse and Aura together offer GM a huge volume in the US market for midsize sedans. GM needs to figure out a solid strategy to rule this market. Youthful cars with clean interiors and standard safety features can do the job.
The resale value is not important to everyone. It's important to a fraction of the customers. I feel good resale value offers me an "exit" option, and that's why I switched from GM to Honda.
You are trying to say the Camry is the victim of it's own success, which is inaccurate. It is not a 1996 Taurus, and it is easily the #1 car in America.
Bashing the Camry is like bashing Tiger Woods for winning 1 major this year instead of 3. :confuse:
People don't buy Camrys to be inspired by them, or to be awestruck. Considering how long it has lead the industry, and the lead grows, not shrinks, should give you a clue.
Camry buyers just want a well-thought out, quality ride, a car short on weaknesses. If you have evidence that this is not a Camry, please feel free to present it.
I agree. Current Malibu is far behind Camry/ Accord
This from a guy who admits he's never driven one.
I guess no minds will really be changed here. Each thinks the other is wrong.
If GM built a car lower-priced than a Camry or Accord, and every magazine said what a great car GM had, some people still wouldn't buy it.
I learned about twenty years ago that some people who claim to be the most open-minded, are actually the most closed minded. Logical discussions are met with eye-rolling and head-shaking.
End of my posts on this particular topic.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
If GM built a car lower-priced than a Camry or Accord, and every magazine said what a great car GM had, some people still wouldn't buy it.
Once burned, twice shy. I have owned many Accords and all were good cars. Now I own two Toyotas and they have been more reliable than the 3 GM vehicles (1 car/2 trucks/1 minivan).
I think I fall into the category you describe above. I like GM as a company, but I need to have something reliable to get me to work everyday.
If GM built a car lower-priced than a Camry or Accord, and every magazine said what a great car GM had, some people still wouldn't buy it.
I'd sure like to see them do it.
What I do tire of is this argument that GM sucked in this segment for 20 years but it doesn't in the past couple so everyone should come back. It took a long time for them to lose their huge base. It will take a long time to get it back. People that drive Camrys aren't stupid. There is a mix of things that make it appealing to a huge segment of the market. I'm not one of them but that doesn't matter. GM would do well to finally admit, as Ford has, that they should be studying Toyota and applying lessons learned.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
After a terrible experience with a 1983 Chevy Celebrity, I swore off GM. Over the years, we have had 4 Hondas, 2 Mazdas, 1 Toyota, 2 Dodges, 1 Chrysler, 3 Fords. The domestics were hit and miss on reliability but the fit and finish were generally poor. In 2004, we were in the market for a minivan and decided to give GM another look. No Dice. After looking at the other domestics and coming away unimpressed, We found ourselves with a 2004 Toyota Sienna LE. This last spring we started looking for a midsize sedan. Looked at the Impala, Malibu, LaCrosse, G6, Grand Prix. I was impressed with how far GM had come in such a short time. Ultimately, none of these were just right. We bought a Honda Accord EX. Shortly after, The Saturn Aura came out. Out of curiosity, I stopped by the local Saturn dealership for a look. Here was the car we had been looking for! GM finally got it right! Too bad the timing didn't work out. Had we been able to wait another year, The Aura or the new Malibu might have found a home in our garage. On the upside, The Sienna will be traded soon. Saturn Outlook and GMC Acadia are at the top of my list.
Is there anyway we can get off this GM cars suck and Toyota is best. I know some feel it is true and that is OK. We all have opinions. However nobody is going to change their minds by reading this forum. Every forum that discusses GM pretty much gets into this and the moderator lets it go for awhile and then shuts it down.
How about some real info. i met a GM guy yesterday who is working in Russia. GM sales there are increasing quickly. GM is also increasing sales throughout the globe. Pretty much the only places they are going backwards is the US and Canada.
We sitting here may be forgetting that sales are increasing elsewhere.
GM is also increasing sales throughout the globe. Pretty much the only places they are going backwards is the US and Canada.
There's something to think about. From a corporate standpoint, does it make more sense for GM to throw its full resources into a prideful attempt to regain its lost glory at home, or to work on building new glory in growing markets and give North America the leftovers? I think they've already decided on the latter- China gets better Buicks than we do; Europe gets smaller cars worth their weight; even the "new" trucks are just reskins inside and out.
I checked one Malibu out last year (06 model) at a local dealer. It was not attractive enough from outside, and that's why I even didn't test-drive before settling for Accord. None of the 4 cyls in stock had an ABS, traction control, curtain airbags, etc. ABS is still not standard on this car --- I leave in snow belt and I badly need all kinds of safety features.
I test-drove Camry, Accord, Altima, Mazda6. I liked Mazda6 styling --- sort of cool car for the price. However, I felt that Accord's 4 cyl was more smooth, and so settled for Accord.
I will definitely test-drive Sonata and Malibu (next generation) before I replace my other car which happens to be a Mazda Protege (I love the car, and I am disappointed that Mazda dropped the Protege nameplate --- I bought this beautiful 2002 Protege LS equipped with CD, Sunroof, Alloy wheels, side airbags, etc. for just $15K after getting rid of my S10).
If you see my posts regularly, you'll know that I'm not anti-GM, I'm pro-Toyota. I'm impressed with GM vehicles like the Acadia. I would easily buy an Acadia over a Highlander. :surprise:
If a GM guy is gonna bash Toyota Camry, they better bring a gun to that fight, that's all.
Not true. I went to Saturn and got a price on buying an Aura. They could not come close enough on my trade-in. I then went to Honda and got my price on the trade-in and a good discount on the Accord. After driving the Accord now for some 1,400 miles plus, I am glad the other deal fell through. The Aura XE falls short of the Accord SEV6. The Aura XR is closer, but they only had expensive models on the lot. The XR is NOT worth thousands more than the Accord SE. The XE is a compromise, being more like owning the four cylinder Accord, if it had a 4 speed. It was discounted some $1,500 off sticker, which only had like one upgrade. The XE Aura price with discounts seemed pretty fair, so I got a quote on the car with my trade-in of the PT. Well the trade-in price wasn't too great. After going to Honda, I realized I could get the Accord SE V6, which is a cut above the Aura for really great price. The Aura is not a bad effort by GM. Very close to the Japanese competition. After driving the Honda for some time now, I realize the Aura may not have been close enough though, even if the price was right. -Loren
I got the same response from another GM poster. Either the same person, and different handle or they both work for GM. I don't know, and I don't care. Doesn't help GM one bit. Better cars, with high demand, made at a profit is what helps GM. They have had some hits, but with more misses than hits, Toyota is still closing in at a fast rate. That said, the main issue is net profit, and stability of the company, while offering solid product.
Between Cadillac, Corvette and some popular SUV and trucks, it looks like GM is in a better place than is Ford. If you look at what sells for a good profit, while not available from say Toyota, then perhaps you get a clue as to direction for GM. Or should I say a direction, IMHO, they should take. Keep up a good line of trucks, concentrate on a few models of SUVs with gas mileage in mind, and by all means get special products out to the market like the fantastic Corvette, and that unique CTS. -Loren
What would be anti-GM would be to recommend that they stay the course. Since the effort to go one on one with VW with the Corvair, they have met with nothing but problems. True, the later Corvairs were pretty cool, and would be a nice ride to have if I was rich and a collector of autos. But the first Corvairs are the example at hand. They made a good solid Nova, and it sold well. Seeing the VW, they did the same thing they are trying now to do. They are trying to make the better Accord or Camry. If they did like Datsun did, and built a less expensive BMW, called the Datsun 510, then they would be selling cars like hot cakes for a decent price. A smaller RWD, with American looks ( something good like the Body by Fisher once put out ) for say $23K with a four and $26K with a six would really sell.... well I think so. Perhaps the researched this and gave up on the idea already. -Loren
or to work on building new glory in growing markets and give North America the leftovers? I think they've already decided on the latter- China gets better Buicks than we do; Europe gets smaller cars worth their weight; even the "new" trucks are just reskins inside and out.
Actually they are becoming all the same cars. Many of the russian vehicles are built here in the US, shipped overseas, broken down and then rebuilt in Russia. These are the Cadillacs and Saabs.
The Chinese cars are also based on the global platforms. They are just built for the specific Chinese market. The LaCrosse is the same platform but has a more upscale interior and back seat because it is sold as a higher end vehicle/limo.
Aura sales seem to be up in February, while G6 sales are down. Perhaps they are competing with themselves, as in cannibalizing of sales??? Next up is the new Malibu which competes more strongly with the Aura, having the 3.6 V6 as standard. I don't get what the strategy is here? -loren
I don't work for GM. I'm only one person. Maybe I could get a discount on a new one if I did work for GM. I just find that sitting in two Accords last week that the seats weren't good and the interior was all hard plastic. I got into my LeSabre and felt all around on the door ledge, armrest, instrument panel, center armrest, and felt like I was home with all the soft plastics.
I do not know if there is a more deluxe model with better interior. I was sitting and critiquing and the salesman left me alone. I sat in an Aura XR the week before: nice. Much nicer than the two Accords, which is somewhat like you said-but pricier and new and discounts will be less than Accords. I did not see a lower model Aura on the floor.
Toyota Camry testing later this week if I can get by when the deal is open. I have trouble with the Camry appearance; it's as overstated trying to be BMWesque as it was understated in the previous model-just different skin.
"How does Toyota keep its nameplates like Corolla, Camry, Rav4, etc. alive? FYI, Corolla is the world's number one nameplate (i.e. there are more Corollas on the road than any other nameplate, all roads of the world included)."
Good question. What about Tercel, Paseo, T100, Supra, Celica, MR2....? Toyota has renamed many vehicles as well and killed names. Did you forget about these?
The Accord uses a softer, more rubber feel plastic on the dash of my car. It may not be a padded feel, but it is not hard. As for the New Camry, I noticed some parts not looking like they come together well, both in fit and finished look / appearance quality. Overall, the Camry is still pretty good, I would imagine. I did not test drive one because it is a first year out car ( a couple of issues, no doubt ) and the handling is not like that of the Accord, Fusion, Altima, or Aura. The Mazda6 sedan seemed overpriced, then discounted some $5K, which to me indicates terrible initial sales, and thus no so great resale value. And a couple of other reasons.
You have a LeSabre? I learned to drive in a '61, I think the year was, LeSabre. My Dad bought it used, and it had special sound proofing done to it when new. Classy ride back when. Of course that V8 would use so much gas today, it would break one financially. -Loren
Saw a television commercial for the Tundra this morning. Toyota is once again touting how "American" it is and that it is "enhancing the American landscape." Oh, yeah. Maybe they should show the thousands of scenes of abandoned factories and steel mills from Pennsylvania through Missouri. Maybe they should show scenes of once-productive auto workers living in abject poverty or now working at low-wage jobs.
Are you actually suggesting we support inefficient producers and penalize companies who learn to make things more efficiently?
This sounds a bit like the old Eastern Europe. And we know how their economies fared.
"Toyota Camry testing later this week if I can get by when the deal is open. I have trouble with the Camry appearance; it's as overstated trying to be BMWesque as it was understated in the previous model-just different skin."
Can't argue with you there. I'm not crazy about teh new design Camry either. No denying tat appearance is up there in the total equation.
I have real trouble with that closed plants and such angle. Who is closing plants in the US? Who is building them? Who is laying off workers in the US? Who is hiring them?
Once productive auto workers in poverty? They paid them off pretty well to go away. If a supposedly skilled auto worker has blown his severance package and is unwilling to move to where the jobs are and compete I can't help that. I certainly can't help that by buying a car I consider to be less than the competitors.
Again, if I were buying big RWD cars like you do it would be a different story.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Maybe a little. But sales might remain about flat. That's because while these new strong products gain momentum, GM will cancel slow selling models, and cut back production of those that sell with big incentives currently. This results in same number of sales but more profit and stronger position for GM. Well, I hope this is what will happen. I certainly don't want GM to flood the market with supply more than the market demands and then offer incentives, just to remain number 1. GM must learn from its mistakes.
"Look at it this way, there is not Cadillac CTS competition from Japan, as the car is so unique."
I have to disagree with you the Infinti G35 is heavy competition since both the CTs and G35 are RWD cars.
"Now consider the Cobalt vs. Japan and Hyundai cars -- is that a car GM will win the game with? It has to be different and has to sell for a profit."
The Cobalt outsells the Elantra I think. What do you mean(I think you meant the Cobalt) has to be different than its comopeiton. What do you suggest GM does to differentiate the Cobalt its from competitors?
"Still would like to see some more of the old Body by Fisher style dominance, like in the later 60's, when they just could not lose."
The 60's are long gone for styling so they(GM) are not going for any kind of 60's styling unless we are talking about bringing the Camaro back with retro styling.
"Trust me, some changes like product, and perhaps a national health care plan + concessions from the UAW, all have to come together. It may indeed all happen."
"Aura sales seem to be up in February, while G6 sales are down. Perhaps they are competing with themselves, as in cannibalizing of sales??? Next up is the new Malibu which competes more strongly with the Aura, having the 3.6 V6 as standard. I don't get what the strategy is here?"
Yeah the Aura could be cannibilizing G6 sales but than again GM is reducing sales to rental fleets so thus G6 sales might be down because of GM's strategy to downsize sales to rental fleets.
"Toyota Camry testing later this week if I can get by when the deal is open. I have trouble with the Camry appearance; it's as overstated trying to be BMWesque as it was understated in the previous model-just different skin."
Thats weird I still find the 07 Camry "understated" style wise. Where I have problems with the camry;s is the understated back end design and the pig snout grille. Still the 07 Camry exterior is way better than that of the 02-06 Camry exterior.
As far as comparing Aura to Accord both have very nice interiors but both of them(even me being a Honda fan) the styling of the Accord and the Aura as well just doesn;t click with me.
Well the CTS is different, as an " Arts & Science " look car. It is not going to dominate the competition on the track or in car comparisons so much as it can dominate via that special look and special niche as the sporty caddy. The G35 is to compete by way of bang for buck, Euro look, and performance at a discount without having any real uniqueness to it. It is more like a Passat or something.
The Cobalt, is another Japan, or Korean like car. Some new styled car, with perhaps the RWD, as a near BMW3 series car would have more appeal. Hope they are making a good markup on the Cobalts, if like you mentioned they are selling. Perhaps not a bad car, though not sure about reliability. I am thinking more of something which could be priced a bit higher, sell with little discounting and be uniquely GM 2008, with some performance along the way.
No, I did not mean to infer that they bring back cars as clones of the past or replicars. Gosh, one of those is enough. I wasn't clear I guess. I meant bring back cars as well done as those of the best of Body by Fisher years, as in dominating the best of styling for American made and hopefully World domination. There is a lot of talent I would think, just waiting to design the next best thing. The Solstice shows that there are some people working hard at styling cars for GM. What happened to a coupe version of that car? Pics from the show looked pretty awesome. What happened to the Chevy Nomad? Maybe the slow down of the Dodge Magnum indicates that there is not a lot of demand for station wagons these days? -Loren
"Well the CTS is different, as an " Arts & Science " look car. It is not going to dominate the competition on the track or in car comparisons so much as it can dominate via that special look and special niche as the sporty caddy."
I agree the 03-07 CTS it didn;t beat anybody on the track and did sell well with the Art & Science look.
"The G35 is to compete by way of bang for buck, Euro look, and performance at a discount without having any real uniqueness to it. It is more like a Passat or something."
I agree it does sell on a bang for buck but the exterior styling does look unique though. I have never heard of a G35 being compared to a Passat. Can you please tell me more in detail tell me how the G35 is like a Passat.?
"The Cobalt, is another Japan, or Korean like car."
I still don;t see the big problem with the Cobalt since there are only 2 other compact cars that outsell it.
"Some new styled car, with perhaps the RWD, as a near BMW3 series car would have more appeal."
So where do you suggest this new RWD car that is near BMW 3 Series in size be priced at and what GM brand does the BMW 3 Series sized vehicle belong in?
"No, I did not mean to infer that they bring back cars as clones of the past or replicars. Gosh, one of those is enough. I wasn't clear I guess. I meant bring back cars as well done as those of the best of Body by Fisher years, as in dominating the best of styling for American made and hopefully World domination."
Oh Ok I got your point on the body by fisher years subject.
"The Solstice shows that there are some people working hard at styling cars for GM."
I agree again.
"What happened to a coupe version of that car?
Whatever happen to a coupe version of the Solstice? Well my thinking is Pontiac already has the G6 Coupe so maybe GM felt like Pontiac didn;t need another coupe in its line-up. Finally, too add in another point I don;t know if the GTO just flopped had something to do with the Solstice coupe not being brought to the NA market but than maybe GM didn't want another high priced coupe in its line-up. "Rockylee" who is a regular poster on GM threads on Edmunds said the GTO will be back though in sometime anyway.
"What happened to the Chevy Nomad? Maybe the slow down of the Dodge Magnum indicates that there is not a lot of demand for station wagons these days?"
No, there isn;t a big market for station wagons these days.
"There are no longer any vehicles being built here. We used to have big plants for GM (Linded) and Ford (Mahwah). I don't know what happened to the GM plant but the old Ford plant is now Sharp's US headquarters."
Well Im from New Jersey and I do know about the Linden plant being shut down a few years back but I didn;t know about the GM plant in Mahwah. What kind of cars did GM make in Mahwah? As for the old Ford plant that is that the one in Edison that you are reffering too? You know Hyundai was once interested in making cars at the old Ford plant in Edison after Ford had left it but nothing came of it.
The new smaller car, with RWD would have a price tag of $21k to $23K for the four cylinder model, with a 6 speed stick or 5 speed manual and the six cylinder would be somewhere around the $25k-$26K price range say. I have no idea just how much more it would cost them to go RWD, but it could be a shared platform with say a baby Caddy. How about making this car a Chevy and dropping the Cavalier image altogether? Even if I am way off base on pricing, and you have to add a couple of thousand, the concept would be the same. You would have a car coming in thousands less than the BMW3, cheaper to maintain, smaller than the CTS, and be a good image builder. The Cadillac CTS should be base priced at say $32K, but offer the 3.6 engine standard, and the automatic transmission, and other goodies.
What to do with Pontiac and Buick? Lots of dealerships to satisfy. Perhaps a merger of the two as a New Star, or something dealerships selling a premium line of Chevy like cars, or should I say near Cadillac cars??? Chevy has the Corvette, so performance should be able to live there, as well as with Pontiac. Seems like Pontiac was half Chevy and Buick/Olds anyway. Glad I don't have the problems a CEO must have, as they have more dealerships now than cars which people will be buying. How do you downsize with as little pain as possible? A marriage of Ponti and Buick would make sense percentage wise, and many already sell that pair. Down the road, the merged pair could be sold alongside the Cadillac line. I see Cadillac and Saab are together in my town. I wonder how Saab is doing? Anyway, Cadillac and the new merged, plus Chevy, Chevy Performance, and Chevy/GMC trucks makes sense to me. Saturn could be the Import division, as well as, making Saturns here in the States. -Loren
Well the 3.9 will have at least 240 hp so it won't be that big of a dog. The main reason why they want to use the 3.9 is to save money so they can start the Camaro out at $21,000 in 2009 as it said in Motor Trend. It just wouldn't be possible with the 3.6
There is absolutely no good reason why a base Aura should weigh 600 pounds more than a 1992 Camry.
bumpy, the answer to that question is crystal clear pal. The 92' Camry had seats and a plastic dash my 1 year old daughter could tear apart with her bare hands. The thickness of the steel on the painted metal? body panels were about Campbells soup can thick.
I hope that explains were that extra 600 lbs. of good weight came from. :P
huh ? Loren, what's years away ? I guess 2 years away is a long time ? G8 is RWD. 09' Impala, is RWD, 2010 Buick Velite Sedan is RWD. 2011 DTS/Lucerne is RWD, 09' Camaro, and I'm sure a few others will follow like a G10......
How can you be so sure 62 ? The Velite could possibly replace the LaCrosse, but I'd hope buick would keep the LaCrosse as the entry-level car like the CTS. The Velite, becomes like the STS, and the Lucerne, is like the DTS.
Comments
I bought an Accord SE V6. Best car money can buy for under $30K and they can be had for under $23K -- such a deal.
-Loren
Everyone would love to make more money working on any job. If a company makes more money by selling a favored product, it would be wonderful to see them share some of those profits. Car companies will do that with bonuses. To demand a wage which can not be supported however makes little sense. Keeping GM profitable is so important to the UAW, working together to come up with a solution has to happen for worker to hold on to jobs long term.
If the UAW and GM come up with a way to produce cars people want to buy and make a profit while providing them, so be it. GM making desirable cars, like in the later 60's could become a reality. This is up to the UAW and GM to pull-off and not Toyota. Blaming the competition is pointless.
Toyota does hire American workers and builds cars here in USA. GM builds cars here in USA. GM builds a better, more desirable auto than the competition - becomes very profitable - workers make money, and all is well. No problem. UAW says their work force is the best, and they build the most reliable cars right here in USA -- once again no problem. From management, to design, on down to production line, if it all works, then fine.
GM using sales of SUVs and trucks as a safe harbor = another setup for failure.
As for steel mils, are there not many new modern mills across the USA today? The less productive mills closed years ago, I thought. Could be wrong on that.
-Loren
If/when we look for a smaller second car, I can assure you we won't consider a Cobalt after this experience. We could just imagine a Cobalt after 150K, which my wife had on one Corolla that was still running well, but didn't have air bags and other more modern safety features. And our similar experiences with Fords we've owned (ok to start but put miles on them and they cost), and my father's continuing difficulties with Chrysler products have convinced us that Toyota and Honda are the way to go.
Unfortunately, it's more the management and ownership of the US manufacturers that have led us to not buying from them. Many "foreign" cars are made in the US by US workers, so we can't blame the workers. Yet for folks like us who want a dependable, solid and reliable vehicle for many years, the US makers have lost us. And price will not win us back, the standard needs to be quality, reliability and dependability. So far the US makers just aren't up to it. I know I kept trying to buy "American" but it just wasn't worth it.
If anyone should be showing abandoned plants as part of truth in advertising it would be GM, They are closing plants and using less steel. Toyota is building plants and increasing its use of American Steel.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am guessing GM is moving slowly because GM does not make money on this midsize sedans. Trying to offer something as good as Camry/ Accord without raising the price would further hurt profits. GM needs to find a way to sell large number of sedans profitably, and give Toyota a run for the money.
Malibu, G6, LaCrosse and Aura together offer GM a huge volume in the US market for midsize sedans. GM needs to figure out a solid strategy to rule this market. Youthful cars with clean interiors and standard safety features can do the job.
Substantial argument: D-
You are trying to say the Camry is the victim of it's own success, which is inaccurate. It is not a 1996 Taurus, and it is easily the #1 car in America.
Bashing the Camry is like bashing Tiger Woods for winning 1 major this year instead of 3. :confuse:
People don't buy Camrys to be inspired by them, or to be awestruck. Considering how long it has lead the industry, and the lead grows, not shrinks, should give you a clue.
Camry buyers just want a well-thought out, quality ride, a car short on weaknesses. If you have evidence that this is not a Camry, please feel free to present it.
DrFill
That's what I've gotten from my GM cars. I don't understand why some think the Camry is special or unique.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
This from a guy who admits he's never driven one.
I guess no minds will really be changed here. Each thinks the other is wrong.
If GM built a car lower-priced than a Camry or Accord, and every magazine said what a great car GM had, some people still wouldn't buy it.
I learned about twenty years ago that some people who claim to be the most open-minded, are actually the most closed minded. Logical discussions are met with eye-rolling and head-shaking.
End of my posts on this particular topic.
Bill
Once burned, twice shy. I have owned many Accords and all were good cars. Now I own two Toyotas and they have been more reliable than the 3 GM vehicles (1 car/2 trucks/1 minivan).
I think I fall into the category you describe above. I like GM as a company, but I need to have something reliable to get me to work everyday.
I'd sure like to see them do it.
What I do tire of is this argument that GM sucked in this segment for 20 years but it doesn't in the past couple so everyone should come back. It took a long time for them to lose their huge base. It will take a long time to get it back. People that drive Camrys aren't stupid. There is a mix of things that make it appealing to a huge segment of the market. I'm not one of them but that doesn't matter. GM would do well to finally admit, as Ford has, that they should be studying Toyota and applying lessons learned.
GM is getting what it deserves, as is Toyota. Same in full-size trucks. Tundra will not sell 800k Tundras anytime soon. It may take 10-15 years.
The difference is Toyota WILL wait and invest in their future.
Apathy was the unofficial name of GMs long-term strategy.
They reap what they sow. :sick:
DrFill
How about some real info. i met a GM guy yesterday who is working in Russia. GM sales there are increasing quickly. GM is also increasing sales throughout the globe. Pretty much the only places they are going backwards is the US and Canada.
We sitting here may be forgetting that sales are increasing elsewhere.
There's something to think about. From a corporate standpoint, does it make more sense for GM to throw its full resources into a prideful attempt to regain its lost glory at home, or to work on building new glory in growing markets and give North America the leftovers? I think they've already decided on the latter- China gets better Buicks than we do; Europe gets smaller cars worth their weight; even the "new" trucks are just reskins inside and out.
yes that is correct, they are exactly the same, the only thing that is different is the exterior and the interior :confuse:
I test-drove Camry, Accord, Altima, Mazda6. I liked Mazda6 styling --- sort of cool car for the price. However, I felt that Accord's 4 cyl was more smooth, and so settled for Accord.
I will definitely test-drive Sonata and Malibu (next generation) before I replace my other car which happens to be a Mazda Protege (I love the car, and I am disappointed that Mazda dropped the Protege nameplate --- I bought this beautiful 2002 Protege LS equipped with CD, Sunroof, Alloy wheels, side airbags, etc. for just $15K after getting rid of my S10).
If a GM guy is gonna bash Toyota Camry, they better bring a gun to that fight, that's all.
Don't spit into the wind. :confuse:
DrFill
-Loren
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Between Cadillac, Corvette and some popular SUV and trucks, it looks like GM is in a better place than is Ford. If you look at what sells for a good profit, while not available from say Toyota, then perhaps you get a clue as to direction for GM. Or should I say a direction, IMHO, they should take. Keep up a good line of trucks, concentrate on a few models of SUVs with gas mileage in mind, and by all means get special products out to the market like the fantastic Corvette, and that unique CTS.
-Loren
-Loren
Actually they are becoming all the same cars. Many of the russian vehicles are built here in the US, shipped overseas, broken down and then rebuilt in Russia. These are the Cadillacs and Saabs.
The Chinese cars are also based on the global platforms. They are just built for the specific Chinese market. The LaCrosse is the same platform but has a more upscale interior and back seat because it is sold as a higher end vehicle/limo.
-loren
I don't work for GM. I'm only one person. Maybe I could get a discount on a new one if I did work for GM. I just find that sitting in two Accords last week that the seats weren't good and the interior was all hard plastic. I got into my LeSabre and felt all around on the door ledge, armrest, instrument panel, center armrest, and felt like I was home with all the soft plastics.
I do not know if there is a more deluxe model with better interior. I was sitting and critiquing and the salesman left me alone. I sat in an Aura XR the week before: nice. Much nicer than the two Accords, which is somewhat like you said-but pricier and new and discounts will be less than Accords. I did not see a lower model Aura on the floor.
Toyota Camry testing later this week if I can get by when the deal is open. I have trouble with the Camry appearance; it's as overstated trying to be BMWesque as it was understated in the previous model-just different skin.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Good question. What about Tercel, Paseo, T100, Supra, Celica, MR2....? Toyota has renamed many vehicles as well and killed names. Did you forget about these?
You have a LeSabre? I learned to drive in a '61, I think the year was, LeSabre. My Dad bought it used, and it had special sound proofing done to it when new. Classy ride back when. Of course that V8 would use so much gas today, it would break one financially.
-Loren
Are you actually suggesting we support inefficient producers and penalize companies who learn to make things more efficiently?
This sounds a bit like the old Eastern Europe. And we know how their economies fared.
Can't argue with you there. I'm not crazy about teh new design Camry either. No denying tat appearance is up there in the total equation.
I have real trouble with that closed plants and such angle. Who is closing plants in the US? Who is building them? Who is laying off workers in the US? Who is hiring them?
Once productive auto workers in poverty? They paid them off pretty well to go away. If a supposedly skilled auto worker has blown his severance package and is unwilling to move to where the jobs are and compete I can't help that. I certainly can't help that by buying a car I consider to be less than the competitors.
Again, if I were buying big RWD cars like you do it would be a different story.
To bad we are likely not to see a 2.9 turbo diesel. :sick:
The 4-door Elcamino isn't my cup of tea. I did enjoy the 2-mode hybrid chart.
Rocky
Maybe a little. But sales might remain about flat. That's because while these new strong products gain momentum, GM will cancel slow selling models, and cut back production of those that sell with big incentives currently. This results in same number of sales but more profit and stronger position for GM. Well, I hope this is what will happen. I certainly don't want GM to flood the market with supply more than the market demands and then offer incentives, just to remain number 1. GM must learn from its mistakes.
I have to disagree with you the Infinti G35 is heavy competition since both the CTs and G35 are RWD cars.
"Now consider the Cobalt vs. Japan and Hyundai cars -- is that a car GM will win the game with? It has to be different and has to sell for a profit."
The Cobalt outsells the Elantra I think. What do you mean(I think you meant the Cobalt) has to be different than its comopeiton. What do you suggest GM does to differentiate the Cobalt its from competitors?
"Still would like to see some more of the old Body by Fisher style dominance, like in the later 60's, when they just could not lose."
The 60's are long gone for styling so they(GM) are not going for any kind of 60's styling unless we are talking about bringing the Camaro back with retro styling.
"Trust me, some changes like product, and perhaps a national health care plan + concessions from the UAW, all have to come together. It may indeed all happen."
I sgree it could happen for GM.
Yeah the Aura could be cannibilizing G6 sales but than again GM is reducing sales to rental fleets so thus G6 sales might be down because of GM's strategy to downsize sales to rental fleets.
Thats weird I still find the 07 Camry "understated" style wise. Where I have problems with the camry;s is the understated back end design and the pig snout grille. Still the 07 Camry exterior is way better than that of the 02-06 Camry exterior.
As far as comparing Aura to Accord both have very nice interiors but both of them(even me being a Honda fan) the styling of the Accord and the Aura as well just doesn;t click with me.
The Cobalt, is another Japan, or Korean like car. Some new styled car, with perhaps the RWD, as a near BMW3 series car would have more appeal. Hope they are making a good markup on the Cobalts, if like you mentioned they are selling. Perhaps not a bad car, though not sure about reliability. I am thinking more of something which could be priced a bit higher, sell with little discounting and be uniquely GM 2008, with some performance along the way.
No, I did not mean to infer that they bring back cars as clones of the past or replicars. Gosh, one of those is enough. I wasn't clear I guess. I meant bring back cars as well done as those of the best of Body by Fisher years, as in dominating the best of styling for American made and hopefully World domination. There is a lot of talent I would think, just waiting to design the next best thing. The Solstice shows that there are some people working hard at styling cars for GM. What happened to a coupe version of that car? Pics from the show looked pretty awesome. What happened to the Chevy Nomad? Maybe the slow down of the Dodge Magnum indicates that there is not a lot of demand for station wagons these days?
-Loren
I agree the 03-07 CTS it didn;t beat anybody on the track
and did sell well with the Art & Science look.
"The G35 is to compete by way of bang for buck, Euro look, and performance at a discount without having any real uniqueness to it. It is more like a Passat or something."
I agree it does sell on a bang for buck but the exterior styling does look unique though. I have never heard of a G35 being compared to a Passat. Can you please tell me more in detail tell me how the G35 is like a Passat.?
"The Cobalt, is another Japan, or Korean like car."
I still don;t see the big problem with the Cobalt since there are only 2 other compact cars that outsell it.
"Some new styled car, with perhaps the RWD, as a near BMW3 series car would have more appeal."
So where do you suggest this new RWD car that is near BMW 3 Series in size be priced at and what GM brand does the BMW 3 Series sized vehicle belong in?
"No, I did not mean to infer that they bring back cars as clones of the past or replicars. Gosh, one of those is enough. I wasn't clear I guess. I meant bring back cars as well done as those of the best of Body by Fisher years, as in dominating the best of styling for American made and hopefully World domination."
Oh Ok I got your point on the body by fisher years subject.
"The Solstice shows that there are some people working hard at styling cars for GM."
I agree again.
"What happened to a coupe version of that car?
Whatever happen to a coupe version of the Solstice? Well my thinking is Pontiac already has the G6 Coupe so maybe GM felt like Pontiac didn;t need another coupe in its line-up. Finally, too add in another point I don;t know if the GTO just flopped had something to do with the Solstice coupe not being brought to the NA market but than maybe GM didn't want another high priced coupe in its line-up. "Rockylee" who is a regular poster on GM threads on Edmunds said the GTO will be back though in sometime anyway.
"What happened to the Chevy Nomad? Maybe the slow down of the Dodge Magnum indicates that there is not a lot of demand for station wagons these days?"
No, there isn;t a big market for station wagons these days.
Well Im from New Jersey and I do know about the Linden plant being shut down a few years back but I didn;t know about the GM plant in Mahwah. What kind of cars did GM make in Mahwah? As for the old Ford plant that is that the one in Edison that you are reffering too? You know Hyundai was once interested in making cars at the old Ford plant in Edison after Ford had left it but nothing came of it.
What to do with Pontiac and Buick? Lots of dealerships to satisfy. Perhaps a merger of the two as a New Star, or something dealerships selling a premium line of Chevy like cars, or should I say near Cadillac cars??? Chevy has the Corvette, so performance should be able to live there, as well as with Pontiac. Seems like Pontiac was half Chevy and Buick/Olds anyway. Glad I don't have the problems a CEO must have, as they have more dealerships now than cars which people will be buying. How do you downsize with as little pain as possible? A marriage of Ponti and Buick would make sense percentage wise, and many already sell that pair. Down the road, the merged pair could be sold alongside the Cadillac line. I see Cadillac and Saab are together in my town. I wonder how Saab is doing?
Anyway, Cadillac and the new merged, plus Chevy, Chevy Performance, and Chevy/GMC trucks makes sense to me. Saturn could be the Import division, as well as, making Saturns here in the States.
-Loren
There is absolutely no good reason why a base Aura should weigh 600 pounds more than a 1992 Camry.
bumpy, the answer to that question is crystal clear pal. The 92' Camry had seats and a plastic dash my 1 year old daughter could tear apart with her bare hands.
The thickness of the steel on the painted metal? body panels were about Campbells soup can thick.
I hope that explains were that extra 600 lbs. of good weight came from. :P
Rocky
huh ? Loren, what's years away ? I guess 2 years away is a long time ? G8 is RWD. 09' Impala, is RWD, 2010 Buick Velite Sedan is RWD. 2011 DTS/Lucerne is RWD, 09' Camaro, and I'm sure a few others will follow like a G10......
Rocky
Loren, last time I checked the Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Infiniti G35 were ELLPS's
Rocky
How can you be so sure 62 ? The Velite could possibly replace the LaCrosse, but I'd hope buick would keep the LaCrosse as the entry-level car like the CTS. The Velite, becomes like the STS, and the Lucerne, is like the DTS.
Rocky
That's good to hear.
Rocky
Rocky