Acura TSX is not something most people would pick over the Accord V6. The Accord V6 just gives you a lot more bang for the buck. Why pay 30K for 205HP when you can pay 23K for 244HP?
The TSX has some definite advantages, but in terms of bang for the buck, the Accord wins.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"The new smaller car, with RWD would have a price tag of $21k to $23K for the four cylinder model, with a 6 speed stick or 5 speed manual and the six cylinder would be somewhere around the $25k-$26K price range say. I have no idea just how much more it would cost them to go RWD, but it could be a shared platform with say a baby Caddy.'
Gm has no baby Caddy's except for the XLR convertible.
"A marriage of Pontiac and Buick would make sense percentage wise, and many already sell that pair."
True, I agree with you on the above paragraph.
"Down the road, the merged pair could be sold alongside the Cadillac line."
I can;t see a new of Pontiac or Buick brands(or the merger of)selling Caddy's out of the same dealership. I do have a dealer near me that used to sell Olds along with Caddy but now its just a Caddy deslership since the Olds brand is dead.
"I see Cadillac and Saab are together in my town."
Now thats an odd pairing Saab and Caddy being together in the same dealership.
"Anyway, Cadillac and the new merged, plus Chevy, Chevy Performance, and Chevy/GMC trucks makes sense to me."
No, a pairing of Chevy and GMC doesn;t make any sense due to the fact Chevy sells rebadged GMC trucks basically and GMC does sell pretty well as a brand(456K units sold in 2006 in the US.) Plus, the GMC brand has dealerships that sell GMC's as well as Pontiac and Buick.
All cars compete for the dollars. The approach is different. The Chrysler 300 may indeed be a likely candidate for a cross-shopped car, when the CTS is on the list. At one time, I considered the BMW3 as a car to compare to the CTS, but now I realize the error of my original thinking on this one. Do believe, for the most part, they are more likely to be somewhat different types of buyers. Never saw one CTS on a lot with a stick. Perhaps they are rare finds on BMW lots as well, but I would imagine those really pushing cars hard will opt for the BMW. And then there is the Euro image and blah, blah, blah. The CTS has a different set of selling points. The appeal has a good range of ages, no doubt, but I would imagine more older ladies to be acquiring the CTS than would be the BMW3 -- could be assuming incorrectly though on that one. Do some people really drive a CTS hard? Sure, they do. And I have seen the CTS-V on the race track. Yes, the CTS can be a drivers car too. For the most part, the buyers of the two cars are different types, I would think. If I am off base, just tag me out! -Loren
"I'm no fan of Toyota, but the 1992-era Camry seems to have been their best effort and the car from which Toyota got its reputation."
I think Toyota got its reputation a long time before the 92 Camry. However, what the 92 Camry did do was propell it over its (arrchrival Honda Accord) in sales and eventually the Ford Tarus in 97 in total sales.
I take it the pairing of Cadillac and Saab to be sold on the same lot is to attract those wanting a European car, with big dollars in hand. The turbo four cylinder is said to be one of the best, if not the best in class engines. Reliability has been a negative over the years however, if you count the survey data in CR book, which I realize some here do not believe in. In America, we are not taxed on the engine displacement, so the big advantage of having HP from a small sized i4 is somewhat negated. Lower weight over the FWD is a plus though, as the front heaviness is lessened. The Aura, which shares the platform with Saab, may make more sense to more people here in the States. I do like the interior on those Saabs. Kinda an interesting car -- different, though no longer odd looking. Hey, sometimes odd is good........ -Loren
I think GM is on the right track with cars like the Aura and the G8. GM has some really nifty cars that are sold Worldwide, while we here in America have been stuck with cars like the FWD Impala.
Folks, I am very impressed with the 2007 GM vehicles. If GM keeps this direction, I have no doubt it will take back the crown from Toyota.
Case in poin is the new Acadia. This is a world class vehicle. Just be careful that you dont hit a 2008 Toyota Highlander or RAV4 with this vehicle. The Acadia will crush the Toyota like a can of soda.
I do agree with the earlier comment about current Camry styling. I'd rather they make them drive more like a BMW rather than look like one.
Over on the GM side I think they did a nice styling job on the Aura. I'm not as crazy about the shots I've seen of the 08 Malibu but it;s in the ballpark. Almost any Chevy I see these days my first thought is teh bowtie is all well and good but I;d shrink it or somehow tone it down.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Currently GM and Toyota are clearly the 2 stand-outs. Toyota probably shouldn't merge with Ford, due to Ford's very poor performance. And GM probably shouldn't merge with Chrysler because of how erratic Chrysler has been latley. But if GM and Toyota could come together??
That would either be the best thing that ever happened, or it could back fire and cause a lot of consumer confusion.
Even though Toyota has become a major player, and even with the 07 RAV 4 and Tundra. I think it will still take some time before they overtake GM as the largest auto producer. GM is not that far behind technology when you really think about it, and they are competitvely priced (especially with their trucks and SUVs). What does everyone else think?
I probably left dents just tapping with my knuckles on those cars.
When I was at a college party one of the guys their was three sheets to the wind and tripped and fell on a White mid 90's Toyota Camry. I remember laughing with amazement as it looked like the hood of the car was totalled out. I was like that much damage from somebody falling on the hood. what would happen if a vehicle smashed into that hood? :surprise: imidazol97, as the great Chevy Chase said in Christmas Vacation about Uncle Eddy's RV "it's a tinament"
Well let's see here, with a total debt/equity of 1.02 for TM compared to GM 11.32 what would you suggest that Toyota do? Buy into GM just to share in the pain of debt? And how many people would not buy the Toyota once it was associated with GM. Think this one through for 30 seconds and you have the answer. Time and time again, you hear people harping about the Volvo say no longer being the same car. Now it is a Ford Volvo. Makes no difference how good or bad the new relationship is, people wanting a Toyota would not be as impressed with a GM / Toy no matter how good it is. The Ford FiveHundred is a shared Volvo platform, and a very safe car, but it did not help Ford sales at all. Nope, GM and Ford have got to make it on their own. Only the strong shall survive. And if two companies come together in desperation, with no major strength between to two, they both fail. Been plenty mergers which failed in the American car industry. Now if GM and Hyundai got together, perhaps something could work out there. The low cost cars could be made by Hyundai, and higher end cars and trucks could be made by GM. Let me think a little longer than 30 seconds on this one, as it may be......... -Loren
Lemko, the 3.4 being dead is honestly a good thing. The engine was underpowered and sometimes buzzy like the Hykia's. The only good 3.4 GM, made was the 3.4 DOHC they put in the 90's Monte Carlo Z34's and in my former 95' Cutlass Supreme Convertible. :shades:
I was referring to the people who just recently bought Accords. When the much better looking 2008' Accord comes out many people that got ripped of at their local honda dealer will be upside down. I'm saying unless you can save $6-7K off on a 2007' I'd rather buy a 08' as it will be waaaaay more popular. The current Accord was outdated when it came out in 2002 or 2003 as I even looked at them just for fun before I bought my Cadillac Seville STS. I was like I can pay $27,000 for a Honda Accord or $26,000 for a used Cadillac Seville STS. I didn't even have to give that much of a thought. :P
If Toyota caused what you say (which I think GM has as much blame for inferiority as does Toyota for superiority) then good for Toyota! Hooray for Toyota making good on getting rid of corporate waste that was GM's manufacturing facilities. Why let underperforming workers continue to earn an inflated salary while producing subpar work and craftsmanship? I don't want my fellow American's earning a huge salary making junk. I'd rather they make a reasonable salary making bulletproof Toyota's; either that, or if you don't have the skills, work at McDonalds.
Boy that took a lot of thought ? Hey Bill, will just send those non skilled workers to McDonalds, because I haven't lost my job yet and sit here on my high horse and I got the answers and attitude. Jeeeeeeeezus :confuse:
Nope, totally different buyers for the CTS. I seriously doubt that people looking for those other cars mentioned, even consider the CTS.
Well you need to spend sometime in the 08' CTS and ELLPS forums. I have and yes the models I mentioned will be cross shopped by perspective buyers in the ELLPS. The Infiniti G35 will give the CTS a run for earning buyers but the G35, also has a lot of weakness's which are CTS's strong points. The new 09' Acura TL, I'm sure will be ready for the battle
At the moment, the Accord SEV6 is the best deal out there, in its price range, and even slightly above. Don't believe me -- go drive one a few times. Look over the entire car with a magnifying glass -- try it - you'll like it!
I drove one already Loren. I drove one back when I bought my Cadillac Seville STS when I first moved here to the Tx Panhandle. I was like it drives a lot like my moms Grand Prix, but I don't see why this car was so hyped. It was pretty smooth and quiet. It got a little buzzy in high rpms.Loren, did I walked away saying I need one of these ? The answer was No, thus I bought the Cadillac Seville STS which I didn't regret one bit
I e-mailed on the edmunds.com "2008'CTS forum" request that Magnetic Ride Control be available for the 2008' Cadillac CTS. I also asked when bluetooth would be available on the 08's as it's been delayed here so the europeans can get it first and I went off in a rant that we get neglected even though us americans are the most loyal buyers. I'll be looking forward to my response.
It was a Ford plant in Mahwah. MAde full size Ford s and some Mercurys to my knowledge. Don't know if they ever knocked out an Edsel but they were there for the time frame.
I had forgotten the Ford plant in Edisson. Thanks for the reminder.
I remember the day they shut down Caprice production in Linden. Sad day. They retooled it for Blazers and now it's gone/
I'd love to see anyone open a plant in NJ again but don't ex[ect it. The land costs too much anymore.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
GENEVA, Switzerland – The Opel GT roadster may have created the cleverest advertising slogan. The GT is the European version of the U.S.-built Saturn Sky, and it kicked off its marketing tagline – GT'aime – at the auto show in French-speaking Geneva, Switzerland, last week.
Reach back to your high school French and think about it.
GT'aime; Je t'aime, the French phrase for "I love you."
Europeans already clearly do love the GT. It hasn't gone on sale yet, but it was named convertible of the year at the prestigious Geneva auto show.
Opel's European Web sites will include a GT corner where buyers can research the hot little convertible and upload audio in a contest to see who can whisper "Je t'aime" in the sexiest, most seductive voice.
Perhaps Saturn can increase volume enough to hold off Toyota?
Only a couple years ago Saturn was the forgotten division at GM. Now it's the growing concern, offering the Vue sport-utility in plain, high-performance and hybrid flavors; Sky roadster with a performance offshoot; Aura sedan, which grabbed North American Car of the Year honors and has a hybrid on the way; and the Outlook crossover. A compact Astra hatchback arrives this fall.
If you look at the money makers of the auto industry, GM full size trucks are doing better this year than last. Ford, Toyota & Nissan are all in the toilet. The Tundra is off 25% from last year this time. GM is up about 16% over last year. The Titan is not doing well. The Chevy Avalanche is selling almost 50% more this year. I have not seen one, they must have really improved it. The Impala is doing well. I agree with those that mergers would not gain GM anything right now. Try to keep on track for a couple winning years. Let Toyota do the merging and get dragged into the gutter. Maybe they can become Chryota
That would either be the best thing that ever happened, or it could back fire and cause a lot of consumer confusion.
Would not be good for consumer. A Toyota - General Motors combo (Toyota Motors?) might be inclined to raise prices on offerings across the board. Need a number of good manufacturers in competition to moderate pricing. Biggest obstacle to merger of Toy and GM is clash of management philosophies and corporate cultures. Would GM managers be trainable?
On a positive note, with a merger, Toyota would take on huge challenge of fixing GM. This would be like a great football coach (Lombardi) signing on with a team in last place and having them win the Super Bowl in a short time.
Best thing for consumer is for GM to refocus, winnow its offerings, and demonstrate that it can make significant annual improvemennts and do battle with Toyota.
I was like I can pay $27,000 for a Honda Accord or $26,000 for a used Cadillac Seville STS. I didn't even have to give that much of a thought.
27K for an Accord? Maybe if you pay sticker and get Navigation and a Hybrid? Or are you talking Out the door cost? I got an '03 Accord V6 Coupe and paid 25K out the door, of course, I paid a premium since the car had "just come out." By the way... if Accords are dropping in value in a landslide such as you suggest in other posts, then how come I sold it at 4 years and 2 months old, with almost 65K miles, for 53% of its out the door cost?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Are you sure you drove a Honda Accord V6??? That's a first to comment the Honda V6 is buzzy. I took it to 7K RPM many a time and never even noticed much audio at all from the engine, let alone buzziness. Maybe you drove the 4 cylinder? Or maybe you confused the Hyundai Sonaccord with the Honda Accord? :confuse:
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I was like I can pay $27,000 for a Honda Accord or $26,000 for a used Cadillac Seville STS. I didn't even have to give that much of a thought.
That's like apples and oranges. New vs used.
Anyhow, perhaps another alternative would have been a new Avalon whose sticker starts at 27. Avalon also has great reliability vs STS per latest Consumer Reports (CR). Mostly red circles vs some black for Cad. Think that Avalon performance model would do well against STS in handling. Maybe beat it.
Graph on P23 of CR April issue shows reliability trend of major brands. Toyota is best, VW is worst and GM is next worse.
I wonder if every new vehicle buyer in 2007 going forward got a free issue of April Consumer Report and read it, would this turn on the bulb above enough buyers' heads and then be enough for Toyota to solidly overtake GM this year.
Does Saturn have enough dealers to do that? I was under the impression there were fewer Saturn outlets than even BPGs.
That would be the understatement of the day! Way more BPG and B and PG and BP and GB dealerships than Saturn.
BUT since Saturn is not taking volume from the rest of the GM divisions it is only + volume and getting it from somewhere, hopefully a lot of it is Toyota. In fact Toyota is always in the top 3 when looking at cross brand shopping (when they compete in a segment)
I wonder if every new vehicle buyer in 2007 going forward got a free issue of April Consumer Report and read it, would this turn on the bulb above enough buyers' heads and then be enough for Toyota to solidly overtake GM this year.
And then the buyers would get the JD Power report and then really wonder what the heck is going on.
If it were possible to break into the secret files of CR and find who the biggest contributors are, I would bet that Toyota is at the top of the list. Look how fast CR changed their story on the hybrids when they were told to. Until CR does legitimate surveys among ALL buyers of a given product they are suspect in my book. Polling their own subscribers is the least likely way to get an honest result.
The Malibu(future & today), G6, and Aura are all the same platform, and pretty nearly the same price. Why would you say that the Aura would not take sales away from the other two? Heck, the Aura could eat into sales of the Impala. Most likely scenario is that Malibu becomes popular leading to more loss of sales in G6 and Aura. -Loren
"Graph on P23 of CR April issue shows reliability trend of major brands. Toyota is best, VW is worst and GM is next worse."
I would have to take a look at CR's current issue but I think GM is more reliable than VW and I am saying this as a Japanse Car fan.
"I wonder if every new vehicle buyer in 2007 going forward got a free issue of April Consumer Report and read it, would this turn on the bulb above enough buyers' heads and then be enough for Toyota to solidly overtake GM this year."
I don;t doubt Toyota's reliability but Ford might fight Toyota back to snatch back its Number 2 spot. In January Toyota outsold Ford 175K-153K but in Febuary Ford outsold Toyota 197K-187K so Toyota is up on Ford currently 363K-350K units while minusing Fords sales of their Foreign subsidaries brands(Volvo, Rover, and Jag.)
Comments
The TSX has some definite advantages, but in terms of bang for the buck, the Accord wins.
Gm has no baby Caddy's except for the XLR convertible.
"A marriage of Pontiac and Buick would make sense percentage wise, and many already sell that pair."
True, I agree with you on the above paragraph.
"Down the road, the merged pair could be sold alongside the Cadillac line."
I can;t see a new of Pontiac or Buick brands(or the merger of)selling Caddy's out of the same dealership. I do have a dealer near me that used to sell Olds along with Caddy but now its just a Caddy deslership since the Olds brand is dead.
"I see Cadillac and Saab are together in my town."
Now thats an odd pairing Saab and Caddy being together in the same dealership.
"Anyway, Cadillac and the new merged, plus Chevy, Chevy Performance, and Chevy/GMC trucks makes sense to me."
No, a pairing of Chevy and GMC doesn;t make any sense due to the fact Chevy sells rebadged GMC trucks basically and GMC does sell pretty well as a brand(456K units sold in 2006 in the US.) Plus, the GMC brand has dealerships that sell GMC's as well as Pontiac and Buick.
-Loren
I think Toyota got its reputation a long time before the 92 Camry. However, what the 92 Camry did do was propell it over its (arrchrival Honda Accord) in sales and eventually the Ford Tarus in 97 in total sales.
-Loren
Chevy entry level
Pontiac/GMC/Buick mid level
Saturn non domestic buyers
Cadillac/Saab/Hummer uplevel
This is a good read about GM's "rear drive revolution:"
http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0608_rear_wheel_drive_ameri- can_cars/
Yeah, they're going to call it the Puick.
Sorry. Cheap shot. It was just sitting there.......
I am very impressed with the 2007 GM vehicles. If GM keeps this direction, I have no doubt it will take back the crown from Toyota.
Case in poin is the new Acadia. This is a world class vehicle. Just be careful that you dont hit a 2008 Toyota Highlander or RAV4 with this vehicle. The Acadia will crush the Toyota like a can of soda.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I always thought that Toylets were those Geo Prizms..... "See the USA in your Toyolet."....
Must resist.....
Over on the GM side I think they did a nice styling job on the Aura. I'm not as crazy about the shots I've seen of the 08 Malibu but it;s in the ballpark. Almost any Chevy I see these days my first thought is teh bowtie is all well and good but I;d shrink it or somehow tone it down.
Fortunately for Toyota, Camry gets love regardless of how it looks. Unconditional, if you will.
DrFill
That would either be the best thing that ever happened, or it could back fire and cause a lot of consumer confusion.
Even though Toyota has become a major player, and even with the 07 RAV 4 and Tundra. I think it will still take some time before they overtake GM as the largest auto producer. GM is not that far behind technology when you really think about it, and they are competitvely priced (especially with their trucks and SUVs). What does everyone else think?
Rocky
When I was at a college party one of the guys their was three sheets to the wind and tripped and fell on a White mid 90's Toyota Camry. I remember laughing with amazement as it looked like the hood of the car was totalled out. I was like that much damage from somebody falling on the hood. what would happen if a vehicle smashed into that hood? :surprise: imidazol97, as the great Chevy Chase said in Christmas Vacation about Uncle Eddy's RV "it's a tinament"
Rocky
-Loren
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
It's a great appliance. As far as best all around car ever built you can't be serious can you? :surprise:
Rocky
Boy that took a lot of thought ? Hey Bill, will just send those non skilled workers to McDonalds, because I haven't lost my job yet and sit here on my high horse and I got the answers and attitude. Jeeeeeeeezus :confuse:
Rocky
Rocky
Well you need to spend sometime in the 08' CTS and ELLPS forums. I have and yes the models I mentioned will be cross shopped by perspective buyers in the ELLPS. The Infiniti G35 will give the CTS a run for earning buyers but the G35, also has a lot of weakness's which are CTS's strong points.
Rocky
I drove one already Loren. I drove one back when I bought my Cadillac Seville STS when I first moved here to the Tx Panhandle. I was like it drives a lot like my moms Grand Prix, but I don't see why this car was so hyped. It was pretty smooth and quiet. It got a little buzzy in high rpms.Loren, did I walked away saying I need one of these ? The answer was No, thus I bought the Cadillac Seville STS which I didn't regret one bit
Rocky
I see a lot more "older lady's" driving 3 series Bimmers around here than CTS's. :surprise:
Rocky
Rocky
I had forgotten the Ford plant in Edisson. Thanks for the reminder.
I remember the day they shut down Caprice production in Linden. Sad day. They retooled it for Blazers and now it's gone/
I'd love to see anyone open a plant in NJ again but don't ex[ect it. The land costs too much anymore.
Reach back to your high school French and think about it.
GT'aime; Je t'aime, the French phrase for "I love you."
Europeans already clearly do love the GT. It hasn't gone on sale yet, but it was named convertible of the year at the prestigious Geneva auto show.
Opel's European Web sites will include a GT corner where buyers can research the hot little convertible and upload audio in a contest to see who can whisper "Je t'aime" in the sexiest, most seductive voice.
Only a couple years ago Saturn was the forgotten division at GM. Now it's the growing concern, offering the Vue sport-utility in plain, high-performance and hybrid flavors; Sky roadster with a performance offshoot; Aura sedan, which grabbed North American Car of the Year honors and has a hybrid on the way; and the Outlook crossover. A compact Astra hatchback arrives this fall.
Does Saturn have enough dealers to do that? I was under the impression there were fewer Saturn outlets than even BPGs.
That would either be the best thing that ever happened, or it could back fire and cause a lot of consumer confusion.
Would not be good for consumer. A Toyota - General Motors combo (Toyota Motors?) might be inclined to raise prices on offerings across the board. Need a number of good manufacturers in competition to moderate pricing. Biggest obstacle to merger of Toy and GM is clash of management philosophies and corporate cultures. Would GM managers be trainable?
On a positive note, with a merger, Toyota would take on huge challenge of fixing GM. This would be like a great football coach (Lombardi) signing on with a team in last place and having them win the Super Bowl in a short time.
Best thing for consumer is for GM to refocus, winnow its offerings, and demonstrate that it can make significant annual improvemennts and do battle with Toyota.
27K for an Accord? Maybe if you pay sticker and get Navigation and a Hybrid?
Or are you talking Out the door cost? I got an '03 Accord V6 Coupe and paid 25K out the door, of course, I paid a premium since the car had "just come out." By the way... if Accords are dropping in value in a landslide such as you suggest in other posts, then how come I sold it at 4 years and 2 months old, with almost 65K miles, for 53% of its out the door cost?
Are you sure you drove a Honda Accord V6??? That's a first to comment the Honda V6 is buzzy. I took it to 7K RPM many a time and never even noticed much audio at all from the engine, let alone buzziness.
Maybe you drove the 4 cylinder? Or maybe you confused the Hyundai Sonaccord with the Honda Accord?
That's like apples and oranges. New vs used.
Anyhow, perhaps another alternative would have been a new Avalon whose sticker starts at 27. Avalon also has great reliability vs STS per latest Consumer Reports (CR). Mostly red circles vs some black for Cad. Think that Avalon performance model would do well against STS in handling. Maybe beat it.
Graph on P23 of CR April issue shows reliability trend of major brands. Toyota is best, VW is worst and GM is next worse.
I wonder if every new vehicle buyer in 2007 going forward got a free issue of April Consumer Report and read it, would this turn on the bulb above enough buyers' heads and then be enough for Toyota to solidly overtake GM this year.
That would be the understatement of the day! Way more BPG and B and PG and BP and GB dealerships than Saturn.
BUT since Saturn is not taking volume from the rest of the GM divisions it is only + volume and getting it from somewhere, hopefully a lot of it is Toyota. In fact Toyota is always in the top 3 when looking at cross brand shopping (when they compete in a segment)
http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/02/saturn_gms_best.html
http://www.carspace.com/autoobserver/Albums/Saturn/saturn_xshop.gif/page/photo.h-
And then the buyers would get the JD Power report and then really wonder what the heck is going on.
-Loren
I would have to take a look at CR's current issue but I think GM is more reliable than VW and I am saying this as a Japanse Car fan.
"I wonder if every new vehicle buyer in 2007 going forward got a free issue of April Consumer Report and read it, would this turn on the bulb above enough buyers' heads and then be enough for Toyota to solidly overtake GM this year."
I don;t doubt Toyota's reliability but Ford might fight Toyota back to snatch back its Number 2 spot. In January Toyota outsold Ford 175K-153K but in Febuary Ford outsold Toyota 197K-187K so Toyota is up on Ford currently 363K-350K units while minusing Fords sales of their Foreign subsidaries brands(Volvo, Rover, and Jag.)