I did drive the Accord V-6 and yes it was buzzy. It sounded like it was working very hard in those high RPM's. Your 53% you got was a good deal for you. You would not get even close to that around here 4 years 2 months later.
Of course, there is also another way to score well. You could have the better car. What if the steering was better, the braking the best, and the rest of the car absolutely superb? Then what? Would they not have to agree, this is a car to buy?
When a company representative states that their cars are much like, or getting near to, or just as good as, or now competing with the Japanese cars, what the heck does that translate to? I think I like Lee Iaccoca in saying that if you can find a better car - buy it. Or a company having the Ultimate Driving Machine. Or the company having the best built cars you can buy. Why are they not saying this is a better car than a Toyota? I have heard since the later years of the 80's, a line similar to, " we are now building cars which are close to being Japanese quality." With great confidence, they are saying you should buy something almost as good? And they were not almost as good back when. What is truly needed is a better car than the competition. If this means different in some way, even the style it for more show, and promote it for more go, then do it! If they are going to make bland, Cobalt looking cars, then it is " here we go again " is this as good as a Civic or Corolla. Proven already, this has not worked, why not go out and build something fresh looking - fun - powerful - more sporty -- anything but trying to build another Cavalier. Geepers!
Maybe the new RWD Impala will be a return to confidence in building a leading car again. Leave the Camry clone ideas aside, and go for the American iron. I think on this one, they are spot-on!!! And once again, I am certain much of the success of the CTS is in it being Cadillac style, and a bold attitude rather than competing for track-ability with a BMW or the smoothness and legend of the Lexus.
Hey Rocky, you are just use to any V6 getting on up to those high revs... After all this is not an old OHV pushrod engine. It is so smooth, you can run it on up to highest of revs, just like a motorcycle. Oh, I had a Honda motorcycle decades ago. Are you sure you were not in a Buick? .... just checking to see if Lemko is watching.
Maybe I should subscribe to that magazine, as those readers found all the right cars??? Oh wait, maybe they are not all that intelligent, as they could not be following the magazine too well, as they bought the wrong cars as well, seeing all those black marks. Never thought of that before. Why do they buy a subscription, read all the telling tale of woes, see all the bad data, and still buy the wrong cars.
Oh well, different forum for psychology of buying may form now.
As for GM holding off Toyota, I would say, it doesn't matter. The health of the company, the relationships with clients, and the future development of gotta have cars is important. Let Toyota fight Hyundai. Well, unless you want to go for World domination, with GMH or General Motors Hyundai. -Loren
I am an online subscriber as well and might not be for long after the car seat fiasco. Have you noticed how it's been swept under the rug so conveniently? I feel that they have been biased against domestics for a long time. Case in point their comment on the CTS "Reliability has been average, allowing us to recommend the CTS" It is like they had their arm twisted to recommend it. Also what they use as the tested model for the domestic is usually the base model with the base engine. For the CTS they chose the 2.8L. Why didn't they buy the CTS as how the vast majority are sold with the 3.6L VVT. Did it have the sport package with the upgraded suspension and brakes? It makes a significant improvement in testing and evaluation. CR recommends the Toyota Sequoia after stating that "The ride is stiff, and handling is ungainly but ultimately secure with the standard stability-control system." Folks if you have to rely on driving safely solely by a stability-control system, you are in trouble. Stability-control should only come into play in the most extreme circumstances not driving to the mall on a nice spring day.
I would trust a mechanic over an educated idiot. You have so easily forgotten the brilliance of such advanced engineering of the 8-6-4 engine, and the wonderful Vega.
At one time the number one car recommended by mechanics was the Cutlass Supreme. It was GMs game to lose. True - back in say 1975 they would recommend an Oldsmobile as the best for durability. Ah, but look at those Datsun 510 cars, for only 1,995 or something like that. By 1968 say, Japan was already sending cars over here with engines which lasted as long -- no make that longer than the American cars. By say the end of the 70's the mechanics were noting some new foreign cars as being the durable ones. -Loren
If you move the seat too close, the foot pedals are too close. Need more leg room and a closer steering wheel -- thus we have telescopic steering columns. Loren
I test drove the Aura with the 3.6V6 engine. Fine V6. Why don't they make it a standard engine?
As for the Toyota Sequoia, I see the problem. Ever see just how tall them trees are? Of course ya need stability control if they move.
Oh you noted they said average for reliability on CTS. Yeah, I can not figure out some times how they do their math. I look at the back pages for the survey data, and it shows CTS as looking very good indeed -- not just average. First year, possibly a little shake-out here and there, but no terrible years and currently very good.
Do you ever use Consumer Guide on the Net, or MSN Auto? And of course we all love Edmund's site. -Loren
The engines lasted a long time but they rusted out really fast especially in the snow belt. Nissan or who ever removed the nickel from the melted down steel. My dad had a Datsun 1976ish B210 honeybee that was very reliable except it rusted out in 5-6 years and the rear seat belts were some crazy contraption that never worked from day 1.
I believe that CR is a paid entity to the biggest contributors. There I said it again.
Loren, and others y'all are not going to convince us that CR, is a unbiased news source. That would be like me honestly believing Fox News is "fair and balanced" :confuse:
That was an advantage GM in days past, where the snow belt areas needed better steel cars. Nowadays, it is no longer an issue. When was the turn-around for body steel on imports? Must have been in the 90's when the bodies started lasting longer. I live in California, so salted roads is not an issue here. We still have some old Datsun and Toyota trucks from the late 60's early 70's running around here.
I think the image of durable steel comes into play with trucks still. Right or wrong, I would think most people looking at work trucks are still looking to domestics first. May be price, but it could also be the image of a tougher truck bed, and stump pulling power from a domestic. Those ads by Toyota look impressive for the Tundra. I haven't a clue as to how they are in real live when placed up against the other big three trucks. Is it a case of the best truck depends on what it is to used for? I am not on a ranch, so for around town use, I would buy the Tacoma. If it was a work or ranch truck, perhaps it would be the GM, Ford or Dodge. The Tundra and Titan look impressive. Now a model can be judged on looks :shades: but perhaps a bit foolish to buy trucks based on looks..... well unless you are, like I would be using it around town. -Loren
The Acura TL, is twice the car of the Accord. Yo remember I driven both and owned the 05' TL
Good luck with your Accord. I hope you got a deal on it.
Anyone else looking to buy a Accord better knock off $5,000 off MSRP. I personally would not touch one unless I was getting $6-8K off because of expected residuals once the 08's come out. This is a time to look at lease rates and hope they are still over inflated so you won't be the one absorbing those costs on trade-ins if you traditional finance. The 2008' Honda Accord will be in high demand. Hell even I like it a lot. It's a sharp looking car with some style instead of the facial razor blade look it has now. :surprise:
Acura is giving TL's away right now. The base TL is a slow seller. The Type-S is selling okay but Acura, won't have the ultimate fix until the 09' TL with its SH-AWD comes on board. This car could be the biggest hit in Acura's history if it has the qaulity, fit and finish, gadgetology, styling, and power to run with the big dogs in the ELLPS. The key component with be its engine. Just how much power is the 09' TL SH-AWD going to have ? With SH-AWD it's going to need around 350 hp if it wants to exceed BMW's 335i.
"I test drove the Aura with the 3.6V6 engine. Fine V6. Why don't they make it a standard engine?" The reason is cost the 3.6 is more expensive to produce. They also want to be price competitive with the marketplace (Camry and Accord 4 bangers). In regards to other guides I use a number including Edmunds, but I generally draw my own conclusions from what I have observed. At the Volkswagen/Mazda dealership near me I have seen on two different occasions people screaming and cussing at the VW service adviser. A family friend of mine works on the Mazda side and said they can not keep VW service advisers. I also notice a disproportionate number of VW/Audi cars at Carmax. Its a shame because I like Audi styling but I would never buy one. I am not swayed by what others might think of me based upon my purchase. I think a lot of people in the USA have a bad case of two things. 1) Badge snobery - "If I do not drive X or Y brand I have not made it and my friends,coworkers, fellow church members will look down on me." 2) 3rd world mentality - Anything that is imported is better regardless of the product.
Did CR mandate, force, coerce, or somehow restrict who could choose to subscribe in the first place? We're the first 100,000 subscribers to CR all Japanese with stock in Toyota and Honda?
That is why their findings are flawed because it's limited to subscribers results.
No, they are a testing group, which accepts no advertising. Would not classify them as a news source. They could have some bias as individuals, as we all do. As to accepting monies which are not accounted for, that is pure speculation and without any know merit. It is like saying that my candidate running for office may be a wife beater. Anyone can accuse someone while not having any proof.
As to Fox News, well goodness, after watching it on TV before changing my cable to basic, all I can say is, " no comment." Still use it for breaking news on the Net. Cable TV has less to watch than the old days with three stations. By that I mean real quality, like the Ed Sullivan show, Smother's Brothers show, Dean Martin Show, and well you get the point. Heck, the old Bonanza is more interesting than watching show auditions, or other reality shows. Loren
Nonsense. You have somehow confused the Malibu with the Accord. Now I do believe that the current Malibu resale will tank. The Accord shall remain as always -- faithfully an excellent retained value car. And the Accord is a sharp looking car, which will look good decades down the road. -Loren
Lets break this down pal. Who are these mechanics ? The one poster gets his car buying advice from the grease ball at the 10 minute Jiffy Lube. Most employees working in these grease shops know how to apply a inspection sticker, check your wipers, add windshield washer fluid, change your oil, and can rotate a set of tires. That's about it and the changing your oil part seems to be a hard task as I've driven out of the service bay and notice mine not being changed. So these Mechanics have the intellegence and qualifications now to tell me which car I should buy when I look like a PhD in car knowledge. The only reason why I don't do it myself is because I don't like to get dirty and can afford to pay to have these dirty tasks done for me. I now usually pay my friends the extra money as they enjoy doing it and make a buck and I get my cars worked on by somebody that knows how to tear an engine apart and put it back togeather again.
My theory is if the guy isn't ASE certified and doesn't work at a trustworthy dealership he isn't touching my car. The only others I will trust touching my car is close friends.
1) Badge snobery - "If I do not drive X or Y brand I have not made it and my friends,coworkers, fellow church members will look down on me." 2) 3rd world mentality - Anything that is imported is better regardless of the product.
Rocky you hold off Honda while I hold off Toyota. We can give GM a chance to regain their past Glory. GM still builds the best PU trucks. I don't like driving cars unless they have a Porsche emblem on them. So you have to convince the alien forces to buy a GM car.
Yes, my arms power the wheel to the desired height. Next question?
The point I was making is that GM on the CTS did not have telescopic steering, which is basically telling the customer they don't really care about what they prefer to have as standard on their automobiles. You are basically getting less because you did not choose to by their STS. Sorry, if people don't see the problem here, as it has become one of many stumbling blocks along the long road back for GM. They still don't get it. The customer is the boss. -Loren
Yes, my arms power the wheel to the desired height. Next question?
Well honda told me the same thing with my 2005 Acura TL, as I had to power the tilt/telescoping with my arms and my TL was almost $37,000 pal acouple of years ago. :P This feature is still not on the TL or Type-S. :P
Yeah next question.....
2008' Cadillac CTS to the best of my knowledge has the pwr tilt/telescoping feature.
Well actually, anything imported was considered cheap back when I was young. Fact is that Japan work hard - very hard, and kept improving the products along the way. The badge snobbery was when GM looked down upon a funny little import called the VW Beetle. Silly little car no doubt for the American road, but to this day some people still love those older air cooled little swing axles. It was another case of we are so much larger, and we can tell people what they will want to buy in the 1960's. Well yeah, some very nice cars GM made back when, but those little gas saver cars for putty around in should have been taken a little more seriously. No, trying to make a VW was obviously not the answer, though a '68 or '69 Corvair would be fun to own, if I could own a half dozen cars. They could have worked on gas mileage for their American line of cars.
When Japan cars came onshore, I suppose it was the same thing. Snobs said they will never amount to anything. Well indeed, it took time. I for one view the Datsun 510 as an alternative to owning the BMW, though I am sure it is more than just a badge difference between the two. Nice and affordable, it was bought as the less pricey of the two. The 240Z was a really cool sports car. Not because it was imported, but for its merits.
As for those buying VWs today, I do wonder. It could be image. Certainly dicey on reliability, going by the numbers. I test drove a Jetta, some time back, and it handled well, but only had power off the line in first, and quickly was running out of steam thereafter. Looks of the interior is excellent. To this day, they still do a good job on interior looks. But will the engine use oil compared to the Toyota or GM car? Will there be electrical hassles still with the car? To many doubts in my mind.
Funny thing about badge snobbery. GM had a lot of badges which had that appeal back when. Once Buick lots its glitter, so did the badge.
Interesting how many different badges the Cadillacs have used. Ever seen all the variants of the Cadillac badge. Kinda interesting to see how the design changed.
quote: 2008' Cadillac CTS to the best of my knowledge has the pwr tilt/telescoping feature.
That's nice -- only took them five years to do so. Kaizen. Moving Forward. Or with GM that was an American Evolution. Oh dang, this is too easy!
Now if they don't take all the Art & Science out of the Art & Science designed car, they got something going. Use the 3.6V6 for the base engine so that they can keep up with an Aura or those speedy Accord drivers, and all is well. :P
While I was away and was thinking about going to bed I had to check out the Ford site to go look at those new 2008' Super Duty Pick-ups. I must say if I was going to buy a HD pick-up the new 08' Super Duty King Ranch would be added to my short-list. It is very impressive. I assume the "King Ranch" Trim can be found on the Ford F-450, but for some reason I wasn't able to build a Ford F-450 ? I will have to call a local Ford dealership to check further into this. I didn't fully build a F-250 "King Ranch" before my computer started freezing up but I was at almost $57,000 MSRP :surprise: So with a few more options and maybe a few Accessories hitting close to $60,000 wouldn't be out of reach. I said to myself I might as well buy a Cadillac Escalade if I was going to drop that kind of dough on a 3/4 ton.
The bottom line is cars are getting way to damn expensive. I like all the bells and whistles and yes maybe not having all the options available on the CTS, is a way for GM, to have customers upgrade to the next trim level ? I can't name another car company that doesn't do this or market themselves this way can you ? A couple of years ago is why I thought the Acura TL, offered the customer the most bang for his/her buck when it came to gadgetology, gas mileage, fit and finish, warranty, build quality, thus is why I bought one. The new 2007 Infiniti G35, might be that "value" car? In 2008' The Cadillac CTS, is most likely to be that car as it has raised the bar quite a bit and the consumer gets a butt load of features, a high quality interior/exterior, unsurpassed build quality with benchmark fit & finish. The 2008' CTS at least on paper now looks to be the king of the ELLPS segment offering the customer alot of car for his dollar. I for one will keep my eyes tuned in on how Acura, the former king of value counters Cadillac and Infiniti. It will be a worthy fight worth watching IMHO. GM, is also bringing out other "value" models to the market with its new Pontiac G8. The rumor is mid $30K range for a GXP which will be loaded out will be a RWD performance value. The 09' RWD Impala will be priced somewhere under the G8 which means the consumer will get a lot of value from Chevrolet. I'd like to see Cadillac STS top out at $60K for a AWD Ultra V8 with a RWD top level one topping out at $57-58K. The STS-V could be price at $70,000 loaded out.
The Cadillac DTS should grow in size and start out in the mid $50K range and top out at $70,000. If GM wants to bring out the ULS then hell they can price it $70,0000+ and maybe have a V12 or V16 engine touch the $150,000 mark.
If american buyers are going to continue to believe the yellow-belly lines written in biased magazines such as CR, then GM, will have a helluva a time convincing the american consumer they build quality, reliable cars today. This is going to take great marketing and GM, will have to take their great powertrain warranty a step further by offering a 5 yr. 100K bumper to bumper warranty, and perhaps a BMW scam like "Free Maintence" to improve it's image. I understand these are costly proposals but like BMW, they will have to past those costs onto the consumer but call it free. When people see the word "free" it's like they got injected with a drug and just might go down to their local GM dealer all buzzed up and trade their camcord for a Malibu, so when the GM, dealer sends them a flyer in the mail they will rush in for that free maintence, free coffee, free refreshments, wow what a buzz !!!! :P
This is why GM, desperately needs to hire me to run GM marketing campaign. I know what triggers these whacko's. Bring your car to Rocky's GM dealership for a routine oil change, a kick of the tires, and you will get some of his wifes home made Chocolate Chip cookies. They are the frozen kind but guess what folks ? They are FREE and can only be found here at Rocky's GM dealership. I'd be booked for months. :P :P :P
That's nice -- only took them five years to do so. Kaizen. Moving Forward. Or with GM that was an American Evolution. Oh dang, this is too easy!
Well why you knock GM, what's Honda/Acura's excuse for still not offering this feature ???? The CTS came out when 2002 as a 2003 model. If this was such a flaw them why did Acura, follow the same mistake up with not offering pwr tilt/telescoping on Accord/TL ????? :P
Now if they don't take all the Art & Science out of the Art & Science designed car, they got something going. Use the 3.6V6 for the base engine so that they can keep up with an Aura or those speedy Accord drivers, and all is well.
The base engine in the CTS is the 3.6 "High Feature" V6 rated @ 255 hp The optional engine is the direct injection 3.6 "High Feature" V6 rated @ 300 hp.
I doubt many CTS owners will be worried about those pesky Accord drivers as most will see them in their review mirror. :P
Loren,
Did you buy a Accord to race american cars ? You better look at the emblems very closely before going out and racing american cars. The Monte Carlo SS's with the LS-4 will leave you in the dust. The same for a Grand Prix GXP, Impala SS, Cadillac STS's, CTS-V's STS-V's, Corvette's, and Saab's 9-3/9-5's/9-2x, SSR, Trailblazer SS's, GMC Sierra Denali, GMC Yukon Denali, Cadillac Escalade EXT, Cadillac Escalade SUV, so don't bow up without seriously checking out your competition. Sure you might be able to pick on a Kia Sephia, or a Hyundai Azera :P :P
Well you just called your potential clients whacko's -- that should get you off to a good start. Maybe you have already worked for GM marketing??? Just kidding :P
Man, this cracks me up! If rotors pulsate in an Avalon, it's due to "deposits", or the owner not breaking the car in properly. What would your reasons be in a domestic?
A lot of times, this is due to rotors not being big enough for the vehicle; not dissipating heat quickly enough.
Regardless of reason, the Avalon needed the rotors resurfaced...which is my number one gripe in any car I drive, domestic or otherwise. And this Toyota was as bad as any domestic I've driven or ridden in in this matter.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
From what I see of Cadillac they appear to be re-bodying/fiddling around with Saab's. Hardly American Iron.
???? what the heck are you talking about? Cadillac vehicles have nothing to do with Saab. ????
Learn to live with the facts that the importers, (most of whom actually produce in USA, anyway), are outperforming the so-called domestics, (and where are most of their cars made ?).
Actually almost half of Toyotas vehicles are imported as are BMW's , Mercedes and most of the rest. Only Honda marque (NOT Acura) and Nissan (not Infiniti) has "most of whom actually produce in the USA" as a proper statement.
Currently GM has no imports from elsewhere (except for 30,000 Saabs and 60,000 Aveos and soon to be imported Astra and G8) for a total of 100,000 cars. :surprise: They have a couple plants in Canada and Mexico but they also sell just about as many vehicles in those countries as they build.
Keep ranting but try and get the facts correct. No offence taken but please do not rant where you are not sure of what you are ranting about.
The problem is you are the only one who has ever complined here about the tele wheel. No one else has. So obviously it is a nice feature but not that important to most.
Anyone can pick an item and make it a deal breaker and that is fine. Just do not expect most everyone to think the same way. For someone else it may be perforated leather or plusher carpets. Not every car has everything.
If I had a choice I would choose the tele wheel over the power pedals for better ergonomics.
General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM) today posted net income for 2006, excluding special items, of $2.2 billion, or $3.88 per share fully diluted, compared with a net loss of $3.2 billion, or $5.67 per share, in 2005, marking a $5.4 billion improvement. Including special items, GM had a net loss of $2.0 billion, or $3.50 per share for 2006, compared with a net loss of $10.4 billion, or $18.42 per share in the year-ago period. GM earned record revenue of $207 billion in 2006, compared with $195 billion in 2005.
Not the greatest news but GM, w/o all the special one time charges, are profitable again. Hopefully this year they will not have all the one time, downsizing charges and continue to show a profit.
Do they need that at Honda? I don't recall the telescope "feature" on the Accords I sat in.
Instead, a deal breaker for me would be soft touch plastics in the right locations around the compartment. I like the carpet at the bottom of the doors on both of my cars. The accord had plastic. Reminded me of our 57 Ford Custom.
overall it looks pretty good, they should be able to post a solid profit this year. They only lost $14million in north america last quarter which is a big improvement. I wonder if people will give the bankruptcy talk a rest since GM has $26b in cash available. Probably not.
CR is a self righteous joke, that is the bottom line. Their methods are flawed and their defense is alays "we survey over 1 million subscribers and we dont accept ads". First of all JD POwer doesnt accept ads, they allow manufacturers to use their results in ads for a fee. That is not the same as the manufacturers paying JD POwers to generate specific results. Secondly, sample size doesnt matter if your methods are faulty. Imagine if every national politcal poll was taken in the same part of the country each and every time. People would say those results are completely biased but no one complains about CR. CR wouldnt be so damaging if other media sources didnt quote their results as gospel. Everyone from Edmunds to your local news trumpets CRs results as if they are infallable.
Heck, if I were to recommend any car it would be a Buick.
I hear all these great things about the Datsun 510, but none of them can be found around me. They all disappeared 30 or more years ago. I guess all those surving 510s are in California or Arizona.
I don't know if a Japanese engine from that time could've outlasted an American one. Japanese car bodies disintegrated in two or three northeast winters and then the vehicle was scrapped. The summers took care of the interiors.
The Pilot and base Odyessey dont have telescoping wheels. What does that say about Honda? The Odyssey touring just got this feature last year. Dont think the Ridgeline has one either. Personally, I have never had trouble getting comfortable in a car without a telescoping wheel but the automotive press has made this a major feature and will criticize a domestic car for lacking it. No one seems to care the Pilot lacks it though.
>CR wouldnt be so damaging if other media sources didn't quote their results as gospel. Everyone from Edmunds to your local news trumpets CRs results as if they are infallable.
I assume they get paid for those clips. Another reason to be sure they state popular views to be sure to retain that income. I've noticed through the decades that noone is allowed to quote CR's views, but they seem to allow quotes in the TV clips and radio clips they market... grin.
A lot of stations use them for a few months in their news and then they're gone. I wonder if they use a low price initially to try to get the stations to use their product.
Radio 55 or 700 Cincinnati had an interview by their talk host early this morning of someone from CR. Maybe the name was Armstrong. The host asked about the bias toward Japanese or foreign brands. I hope I'll be able to find the interview. I was laughing to myself because the CR person seemed stunned. I don't know if the interview was live this morning or taped earlier.
Since we are commenting on missing features I think its worth noting that the accord lacks a split folding rear seat, trip computer, MP3 jack, seamless airbag cover, remote start, 18" wheels, 6 speed auto and other features found on its competitors so it's not infallable on the features front. Sure the CTS was lacking a telescoping steering wheel for its first generation but one could ask why the Accord hasnt been significantly upgraded during its 5 year run. I would rather have the features I listed above than a telescoping wheel. Its not that GM leaves off key features moreso than its competitors, its that the features GM leaves off are always noted by the media.
Missing features. The oil life indicator in my Buicks must be top of the line. The Accord indicator just gives output in 10% intervals. It must not track as many variables to ascertain oil life predictions as the GM version which gives the oil life in 1% steps.
That's a key feature the media should focus on because correct and precise readouts on oil life helps owners decide when to change and conserve the oil resources. Going in 10% steps makes it a guessing game.
Which is more important, telescoping steering wheel or good output values for the oil life to preserve the engine and conserve the resources.
I haven't heard talk of Gm bankruptcy in well over a year. As long as they stay the course, they will be fine. Yes they will lose the #1 spot to Toyota but who cares? they will be a much stronger company with much better products.
Imagine.....a Chevy selling without rebates. Might be a reality in 3 years.
Imagine.....a Chevy selling without rebates. Might be a reality in 3 years.
I doubt that. Remember the Chinese are coming and I think that all OEMs that sell non luxury vehicles will have some stiff competition, including Toyota and Hyundai.
Comments
Rocky
When a company representative states that their cars are much like, or getting near to, or just as good as, or now competing with the Japanese cars, what the heck does that translate to? I think I like Lee Iaccoca in saying that if you can find a better car - buy it. Or a company having the Ultimate Driving Machine. Or the company having the best built cars you can buy. Why are they not saying this is a better car than a Toyota? I have heard since the later years of the 80's, a line similar to, " we are now building cars which are close to being Japanese quality." With great confidence, they are saying you should buy something almost as good? And they were not almost as good back when. What is truly needed is a better car than the competition. If this means different in some way, even the style it for more show, and promote it for more go, then do it! If they are going to make bland, Cobalt looking cars, then it is " here we go again " is this as good as a Civic or Corolla. Proven already, this has not worked, why not go out and build something fresh looking - fun - powerful - more sporty -- anything but trying to build another Cavalier. Geepers!
Maybe the new RWD Impala will be a return to confidence in building a leading car again. Leave the Camry clone ideas aside, and go for the American iron. I think on this one, they are spot-on!!! And once again, I am certain much of the success of the CTS is in it being Cadillac style, and a bold attitude rather than competing for track-ability with a BMW or the smoothness and legend of the Lexus.
Loren
*kidding ya*
-Loren
All I can say is WOW !!!!! :surprise:
Rocky
Oh well, different forum for psychology of buying may form now.
As for GM holding off Toyota, I would say, it doesn't matter. The health of the company, the relationships with clients, and the future development of gotta have cars is important. Let Toyota fight Hyundai. Well, unless you want to go for World domination, with GMH or General Motors Hyundai.
-Loren
Also what they use as the tested model for the domestic is usually the base model with the base engine. For the CTS they chose the 2.8L. Why didn't they buy the CTS as how the vast majority are sold with the 3.6L VVT.
Did it have the sport package with the upgraded suspension and brakes? It makes a significant improvement in testing and evaluation.
CR recommends the Toyota Sequoia after stating that "The ride is stiff, and handling is ungainly but ultimately secure with the standard stability-control system."
Folks if you have to rely on driving safely solely by a stability-control system, you are in trouble.
Stability-control should only come into play in the most extreme circumstances not driving to the mall on a nice spring day.
Rocky
Let's book that trip lemko. I'll be your bodygaurd
Rocky
At one time the number one car recommended by mechanics was the Cutlass Supreme. It was GMs game to lose. True - back in say 1975 they would recommend an Oldsmobile as the best for durability. Ah, but look at those Datsun 510 cars, for only 1,995 or something like that. By 1968 say, Japan was already sending cars over here with engines which lasted as long -- no make that longer than the American cars. By say the end of the 70's the mechanics were noting some new foreign cars as being the durable ones.
-Loren
Loren
As for the Toyota Sequoia, I see the problem. Ever see just how tall them trees are? Of course ya need stability control if they move.
Oh you noted they said average for reliability on CTS. Yeah, I can not figure out some times how they do their math. I look at the back pages for the survey data, and it shows CTS as looking very good indeed -- not just average. First year, possibly a little shake-out here and there, but no terrible years and currently very good.
Do you ever use Consumer Guide on the Net, or MSN Auto? And of course we all love Edmund's site.
-Loren
Loren, and others y'all are not going to convince us that CR, is a unbiased news source. That would be like me honestly believing Fox News is "fair and balanced" :confuse:
Rocky
I think the image of durable steel comes into play with trucks still. Right or wrong, I would think most people looking at work trucks are still looking to domestics first. May be price, but it could also be the image of a tougher truck bed, and stump pulling power from a domestic. Those ads by Toyota look impressive for the Tundra. I haven't a clue as to how they are in real live when placed up against the other big three trucks. Is it a case of the best truck depends on what it is to used for? I am not on a ranch, so for around town use, I would buy the Tacoma. If it was a work or ranch truck, perhaps it would be the GM, Ford or Dodge. The Tundra and Titan look impressive. Now a model can be judged on looks :shades: but perhaps a bit foolish to buy trucks based on looks..... well unless you are, like I would be using it around town.
-Loren
The Acura TL, is twice the car of the Accord. Yo remember I driven both and owned the 05' TL
Good luck with your Accord. I hope you got a deal on it.
Anyone else looking to buy a Accord better knock off $5,000 off MSRP. I personally would not touch one unless I was getting $6-8K off because of expected residuals once the 08's come out. This is a time to look at lease rates and hope they are still over inflated so you won't be the one absorbing those costs on trade-ins if you traditional finance. The 2008' Honda Accord will be in high demand. Hell even I like it a lot. It's a sharp looking car with some style instead of the facial razor blade look it has now. :surprise:
Acura is giving TL's away right now. The base TL is a slow seller. The Type-S is selling okay but Acura, won't have the ultimate fix until the 09' TL with its SH-AWD comes on board. This car could be the biggest hit in Acura's history if it has the qaulity, fit and finish, gadgetology, styling, and power to run with the big dogs in the ELLPS. The key component with be its engine. Just how much power is the 09' TL SH-AWD going to have ? With SH-AWD it's going to need around 350 hp if it wants to exceed BMW's 335i.
Rocky
The reason is cost the 3.6 is more expensive to produce. They also want to be price competitive with the marketplace (Camry and Accord 4 bangers). In regards to other guides I use a number including Edmunds, but I generally draw my own conclusions from what I have observed. At the Volkswagen/Mazda dealership near me I have seen on two different occasions people screaming and cussing at the VW service adviser. A family friend of mine works on the Mazda side and said they can not keep VW service advisers.
I also notice a disproportionate number of VW/Audi cars at Carmax. Its a shame because I like Audi styling but I would never buy one.
I am not swayed by what others might think of me based upon my purchase. I think a lot of people in the USA have a bad case of two things.
1) Badge snobery - "If I do not drive X or Y brand I have not made it and my friends,coworkers, fellow church members will look down on me."
2) 3rd world mentality - Anything that is imported is better
regardless of the product.
That is why their findings are flawed because it's limited to subscribers results.
Rocky
So what do you suggest that the Wagoner and Ford make campaign contributions to Consumer Reports like Honyota ?
Jeeeeeez. That would be a sleazy way to get people to buy your product.
Rocky
As to Fox News, well goodness, after watching it on TV before changing my cable to basic, all I can say is, " no comment." Still use it for breaking news on the Net. Cable TV has less to watch than the old days with three stations. By that I mean real quality, like the Ed Sullivan show, Smother's Brothers show, Dean Martin Show, and well you get the point. Heck, the old Bonanza is more interesting than watching show auditions, or other reality shows.
Loren
Rocky
-Loren
Rocky
They had their arm twisted to the point so they could throw a carrot out their to look "fair and balanced"
Rocky
Lets break this down pal. Who are these mechanics ? The one poster gets his car buying advice from the grease ball at the 10 minute Jiffy Lube. Most employees working in these grease shops know how to apply a inspection sticker, check your wipers, add windshield washer fluid, change your oil, and can rotate a set of tires. That's about it and the changing your oil part seems to be a hard task as I've driven out of the service bay and notice mine not being changed. So these Mechanics have the intellegence and qualifications now to tell me which car I should buy when I look like a PhD in car knowledge. The only reason why I don't do it myself is because I don't like to get dirty and can afford to pay to have these dirty tasks done for me. I now usually pay my friends the extra money as they enjoy doing it and make a buck and I get my cars worked on by somebody that knows how to tear an engine apart and put it back togeather again.
My theory is if the guy isn't ASE certified and doesn't work at a trustworthy dealership he isn't touching my car. The only others I will trust touching my car is close friends.
Rocky
I know the answer to that one.
Rocky
2) 3rd world mentality - Anything that is imported is better
regardless of the product.
Exactly the root answer !!!!
Rocky
Rocky
The point I was making is that GM on the CTS did not have telescopic steering, which is basically telling the customer they don't really care about what they prefer to have as standard on their automobiles. You are basically getting less because you did not choose to by their STS. Sorry, if people don't see the problem here, as it has become one of many stumbling blocks along the long road back for GM. They still don't get it. The customer is the boss.
-Loren
Well honda told me the same thing with my 2005 Acura TL, as I had to power the tilt/telescoping with my arms and my TL was almost $37,000 pal acouple of years ago. :P This feature is still not on the TL or Type-S. :P
Yeah next question.....
2008' Cadillac CTS to the best of my knowledge has the pwr tilt/telescoping feature.
Rocky
When Japan cars came onshore, I suppose it was the same thing. Snobs said they will never amount to anything. Well indeed, it took time. I for one view the Datsun 510 as an alternative to owning the BMW, though I am sure it is more than just a badge difference between the two. Nice and affordable, it was bought as the less pricey of the two. The 240Z was a really cool sports car. Not because it was imported, but for its merits.
As for those buying VWs today, I do wonder. It could be image. Certainly dicey on reliability, going by the numbers. I test drove a Jetta, some time back, and it handled well, but only had power off the line in first, and quickly was running out of steam thereafter. Looks of the interior is excellent. To this day, they still do a good job on interior looks. But will the engine use oil compared to the Toyota or GM car? Will there be electrical hassles still with the car? To many doubts in my mind.
Funny thing about badge snobbery. GM had a lot of badges which had that appeal back when. Once Buick lots its glitter, so did the badge.
Interesting how many different badges the Cadillacs have used. Ever seen all the variants of the Cadillac badge. Kinda interesting to see how the design changed.
Loren, badging the H now :shades:
That's nice -- only took them five years to do so. Kaizen. Moving Forward.
Or with GM that was an American Evolution.
Now if they don't take all the Art & Science out of the Art & Science designed car, they got something going. Use the 3.6V6 for the base engine so that they can keep up with an Aura or those speedy Accord drivers, and all is well. :P
Loren
While I was away and was thinking about going to bed I had to check out the Ford site to go look at those new 2008' Super Duty Pick-ups. I must say if I was going to buy a HD pick-up the new 08' Super Duty King Ranch would be added to my short-list. It is very impressive. I assume the "King Ranch" Trim can be found on the Ford F-450, but for some reason I wasn't able to build a Ford F-450 ? I will have to call a local Ford dealership to check further into this. I didn't fully build a F-250 "King Ranch" before my computer started freezing up but I was at almost $57,000 MSRP :surprise: So with a few more options and maybe a few Accessories hitting close to $60,000 wouldn't be out of reach. I said to myself I might as well buy a Cadillac Escalade if I was going to drop that kind of dough on a 3/4 ton.
The bottom line is cars are getting way to damn expensive. I like all the bells and whistles and yes maybe not having all the options available on the CTS, is a way for GM, to have customers upgrade to the next trim level ? I can't name another car company that doesn't do this or market themselves this way can you ? A couple of years ago is why I thought the Acura TL, offered the customer the most bang for his/her buck when it came to gadgetology, gas mileage, fit and finish, warranty, build quality, thus is why I bought one. The new 2007 Infiniti G35, might be that "value" car? In 2008' The Cadillac CTS, is most likely to be that car as it has raised the bar quite a bit and the consumer gets a butt load of features, a high quality interior/exterior, unsurpassed build quality with benchmark fit & finish. The 2008' CTS at least on paper now looks to be the king of the ELLPS segment offering the customer alot of car for his dollar. I for one will keep my eyes tuned in on how Acura, the former king of value counters Cadillac and Infiniti. It will be a worthy fight worth watching IMHO. GM, is also bringing out other "value" models to the market with its new Pontiac G8. The rumor is mid $30K range for a GXP which will be loaded out will be a RWD performance value. The 09' RWD Impala will be priced somewhere under the G8 which means the consumer will get a lot of value from Chevrolet. I'd like to see Cadillac STS top out at $60K for a AWD Ultra V8 with a RWD top level one topping out at $57-58K. The STS-V could be price
at $70,000 loaded out.
The Cadillac DTS should grow in size and start out in the mid $50K range and top out at $70,000. If GM wants to bring out the ULS then hell they can price it $70,0000+ and maybe have a V12 or V16 engine touch the $150,000 mark.
If american buyers are going to continue to believe the yellow-belly lines written in biased magazines such as CR, then GM, will have a helluva a time convincing the american consumer they build quality, reliable cars today. This is going to take great marketing and GM, will have to take their great powertrain warranty a step further by offering a 5 yr. 100K bumper to bumper warranty, and perhaps a BMW scam like "Free Maintence" to improve it's image. I understand these are costly proposals but like BMW, they will have to past those costs onto the consumer but call it free. When people see the word "free" it's like they got injected with a drug and just might go down to their
local GM dealer all buzzed up and trade their camcord for a Malibu, so when the GM, dealer sends them a flyer in the mail they will rush in for that free maintence, free coffee, free refreshments, wow what a buzz !!!! :P
This is why GM, desperately needs to hire me to run GM marketing campaign. I know what triggers these whacko's. Bring your car to Rocky's GM dealership for a routine oil change, a kick of the tires, and you will get some of his wifes home made Chocolate Chip cookies. They are the frozen kind but guess what folks ? They are FREE and can only be found here at Rocky's GM dealership. I'd be booked for months. :P :P :P
Rocky
Or with GM that was an American Evolution. Oh dang, this is too easy!
Well why you knock GM, what's Honda/Acura's excuse for still not offering this feature ???? The CTS came out when 2002 as a 2003 model. If this was such a flaw them why did Acura, follow the same mistake up with not offering pwr tilt/telescoping on Accord/TL ????? :P
Now if they don't take all the Art & Science out of the Art & Science designed car, they got something going. Use the 3.6V6 for the base engine so that they can keep up with an Aura or those speedy Accord drivers, and all is well.
The base engine in the CTS is the 3.6 "High Feature" V6 rated @ 255 hp The optional engine is the direct injection 3.6 "High Feature" V6 rated @ 300 hp.
I doubt many CTS owners will be worried about those pesky Accord drivers as most will see them in their review mirror. :P
Loren,
Did you buy a Accord to race american cars ? You better look at the emblems very closely before going out and racing american cars. The Monte Carlo SS's with the LS-4 will leave you in the dust. The same for a Grand Prix GXP, Impala SS, Cadillac STS's, CTS-V's STS-V's, Corvette's, and Saab's 9-3/9-5's/9-2x, SSR, Trailblazer SS's, GMC Sierra Denali, GMC Yukon Denali, Cadillac Escalade EXT, Cadillac Escalade SUV, so don't bow up without seriously checking out your competition. Sure you might be able to pick on a Kia Sephia, or a Hyundai Azera :P :P
Rocky
Loren
--left coast signing off--
A lot of times, this is due to rotors not being big enough for the vehicle; not dissipating heat quickly enough.
Regardless of reason, the Avalon needed the rotors resurfaced...which is my number one gripe in any car I drive, domestic or otherwise. And this Toyota was as bad as any domestic I've driven or ridden in in this matter.
Bill
I'd just give them what they want. I make a small profit and they leave happy knowing the got something free for coming. It's a win, win, deal
Rocky
???? what the heck are you talking about? Cadillac vehicles have nothing to do with Saab. ????
Learn to live with the facts that the importers, (most of whom actually produce in USA, anyway), are outperforming the so-called domestics, (and where are most of their cars made ?).
Actually almost half of Toyotas vehicles are imported as are BMW's , Mercedes and most of the rest. Only Honda marque (NOT Acura) and Nissan (not Infiniti) has "most of whom actually produce in the USA" as a proper statement.
Currently GM has no imports from elsewhere (except for 30,000 Saabs and 60,000 Aveos and soon to be imported Astra and G8) for a total of 100,000 cars. :surprise: They have a couple plants in Canada and Mexico but they also sell just about as many vehicles in those countries as they build.
Keep ranting but try and get the facts correct. No offence taken but please do not rant where you are not sure of what you are ranting about.
The problem is you are the only one who has ever complined here about the tele wheel. No one else has. So obviously it is a nice feature but not that important to most.
Anyone can pick an item and make it a deal breaker and that is fine. Just do not expect most everyone to think the same way. For someone else it may be perforated leather or plusher carpets. Not every car has everything.
If I had a choice I would choose the tele wheel over the power pedals for better ergonomics.
Not the greatest news but GM, w/o all the special one time charges, are profitable again. Hopefully this year they will not have all the one time, downsizing charges and continue to show a profit.
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gm- news/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=2&docid=34293
Do they need that at Honda? I don't recall the telescope "feature" on the Accords I sat in.
Instead, a deal breaker for me would be soft touch plastics in the right locations around the compartment. I like the carpet at the bottom of the doors on both of my cars. The accord had plastic. Reminded me of our 57 Ford Custom.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I hear all these great things about the Datsun 510, but none of them can be found around me. They all disappeared 30 or more years ago. I guess all those surving 510s are in California or Arizona.
I don't know if a Japanese engine from that time could've outlasted an American one. Japanese car bodies disintegrated in two or three northeast winters and then the vehicle was scrapped. The summers took care of the interiors.
I assume they get paid for those clips. Another reason to be sure they state popular views to be sure to retain that income. I've noticed through the decades that noone is allowed to quote CR's views, but they seem to allow quotes in the TV clips and radio clips they market... grin.
A lot of stations use them for a few months in their news and then they're gone. I wonder if they use a low price initially to try to get the stations to use their product.
Radio 55 or 700 Cincinnati had an interview by their talk host early this morning of someone from CR. Maybe the name was Armstrong. The host asked about the bias toward Japanese or foreign brands. I hope I'll be able to find the interview. I was laughing to myself because the CR person seemed stunned. I don't know if the interview was live this morning or taped earlier.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's a key feature the media should focus on because correct and precise readouts on oil life helps owners decide when to change and conserve the oil resources. Going in 10% steps makes it a guessing game.
Which is more important, telescoping steering wheel or good output values for the oil life to preserve the engine and conserve the resources.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Imagine.....a Chevy selling without rebates. Might be a reality in 3 years.
I doubt that. Remember the Chinese are coming and I think that all OEMs that sell non luxury vehicles will have some stiff competition, including Toyota and Hyundai.