Well perhaps we should artificially manipulate our currency to 38% under the yen and lets see just how much those honyota's cost. What's good for the goose, should be good for the gander right ?
I bought an Accord SE V6. Best car money can buy for under $30K and they can be had for under $23K -- such a deal.
Huh ? Best car money can buy for under $30K ? Lemme see, uhhhhhh Camry, Aura, Monte Carlo SS, Acura TSX, Nissan Altima, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Mustang GT, Carolla, G6, LaCrosse, are all models I'd pick over the Accord, off the top of my head. If you lemme pick what I'd actually pay for them which would be under $30K I could throw in at least 25 more.
You do raise a good question imidazol ? Loren, said he was considering a Aura, but didn't like the 3.5 engine. I reccomended he drive the 3.6 to see a difference but he never did as he must of made up his mind on the Accord, already? Loren, (no-pun) intended but when you told us you bought a Accord, it kind shocked crap out of me :surprise: I assumed you were going to get a Monte Carlo SS, at the very least and if you didn't buy a GM, product you would of baught one of those Hyundai's you like so much because of the warranty issue that you value so much. Honda Accord, came out of left field and smacked me upside the head.
Transmissions are the same well some are. Frame has been changed quite a bit bumpy. The suspensions also have been changed quite a bit, axels, I couldn't tell you for sure. :confuse:
Did you not try any other Saturn dealers ? What happened to the Monte idea ? I guess I'm different than most as I usually try 10 dealers or more for the vehicle I want to buy. Especially having a trade. :confuse:
Much nicer than the two Accords, which is somewhat like you said-but pricier and new and discounts will be less than Accords.
Honda, is pushing the Accords out the door but not at bottom bargain basement prices. :confuse: I suppose if you can save lets say $6,000-7,000 off MSRP it might be a good buy. Their value will be in the toilet when the 08' Accord comes out and if you didn't save a lot of money last or this year you will be upside down quite a few thousand.
>bumpy, the answer to that question is crystal clear pal. The 92' Camry had seats and a plastic dash my 1 year old daughter could tear apart with her bare hands. The thickness of the steel on the painted metal? body panels were about Campbells soup can thick.
Back in the days that are now the good old days of great foreign brands, I used to compare metals when I'd walk through parking lots by tapping on the fenders with joints of my fingers and knuckles. The thinny tinny of the Hondas and Toyotas was amazing. This is late 80s and 90s. I recall shopping the new car lots when I bought a Century and next a LeSabre the same way. I probably left dents just tapping with my knuckles on those cars. They were pathetically thin. No wonder rusting was easy.
I doubt it is huge but it is possible the 2 door G6 may be hit slightly. that is because the G6 was the lowest posible Pontiac possible and now the G5 is.
Because you tell me the Velite is RWD and we all know the LaCrosse will be based on Eps 2 which is FWD and perhaps AWD. The new LaCrosse is only a few years away.
I see the G6 going RWD on the new midsize Zeta platform that the Holdenguy let us know about. This will delay it a bit but well worth GM waiting. GM will have the new Malibu and Aura to make up for the volume as the G6 gets older and goes RWD. Impala will also go RWD albiet a bit larger than the Eps 2.
GMs brand strategy seems to be working. Saturn, per an Edmunds article here, does not take any sales from any GM products. The top 10 considerers in every model is conquest. Not one GM product. In other words the person that bought an Aura/Sky/Acadia did not seriously consider GM products. Pretty amazing.
Now that Saturn has proven to me that it does not step on the other GM divisions feet I can feel more comfortable that GM can have an entry level division (Chev), a mid level division (Pontiac RWD sporty, Buick Luxury, GMC truck), and an uplevel channel (Cadillac/Saab/Hummer).
There have been quite a few articles in the press (last couple years) that the future is niche marketing. The company that can build niche cars at a profit will make it. As proof there are only a few CARS that sell close to 300,000 units a year. Most sell under 100,000 and they are not going away.
In fact only the Impala, Cobalt, Accord, Civic, Altima, Camry, Corolla sold over 200,000 units last year. The big seller the Camry sold 450,000 units but the 2nd place Accord sold 350,000 units. Then Civic at 316,000, Impala at 290K and Corolla at 272K, Cobalt at 211,000.
Everyone else is under 200,000 units per year and most much lower. So 7 models sell over 200,000 per year while there are over a 100 other models selling under 200,000 units and most well below 100,000 units.
The question is what will GM do with the Chrysler products. :P
I guess the 3.4 V-6 is finally dead? Funny, my girlfriend and her father's Impalas have the 3.4 V-6 and it doesn't seem as bad as its reputation suggests. Don't like that they made the last batch in China.
12-volt electrical systems became the norm in 1955. I recall Mercedes trying to push a 42-volt system a few years ago to handle all the accessories cars now have.
One that got away was a black 1950 Buick Roadmaster when I was in college. As a broke student, I didn't even have the $600 asking price for a solid-bodied, good-chromed well-runnning example that some idiot would probably be asking $10,000 today at Carlisle. Anyway, this car had a big six-volt battery that looked almost as big as the engine block.
I'm no fan of Toyota, but the 1992-era Camry seems to have been their best effort and the car from which Toyota got its reputation. A guy I knew had a black '92 Camry, drove the heck out of it like it was a NYC taxicab and it looked it. I think it finally died at 212K miles. Toyota's been coasting on the reputation of the 1992-era Camry since.
I remember the 1988 Honda Accord with the pop-up lights being very popular. Funny, I can't find one now for how many there were back in the day.
"One that got away was a black 1950 Buick Roadmaster when I was in college. As a broke student, I didn't even have the $600 asking price for a solid-bodied, good-chromed well-runnning example that some idiot would probably be asking $10,000 today at Carlisle. Anyway, this car had a big six-volt battery that looked almost as big as the engine block."
Oh, man! Too bad I didn't know you back then.... That would have been awfully close to my grandfather's car. Wrong year right color.
I did have an old Buick once as a hobby car -a 56 Special. Nothing that would bring in the big bucks but it was a fun toy and got noticed. I bought it for $600 and sold it for $600. I followed it for two more sales which were also $600.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I hope that explains were that extra 600 lbs. of good weight came from.
Sorry Rocky, but there is no such thing as "good" weight. A 2900-pound Aura would be a significantly better performer and driver in every conceivable way.
Everyone else is under 200,000 units per year and most much lower. So 7 models sell over 200,000 per year while there are over a 100 other models selling under 200,000 units and most well below 100,000 units.
Under 200,000 in this country. Many of the nondomestic models sell in appreciable numbers on other continents, which helps out on the economics. GM's challenge is to gets its models to do likewise (which they do seem to be working on).
Sorry Rocky, but there is no such thing as "good" weight. A 2900-pound Aura would be a significantly better performer and driver in every conceivable way.
Yeah, but a 2900 pound Aura would squeak and rattle and shake like a '76 Eldorado convertible over railroad crossings. They'd have to cut the sound insulation to the point that it would be unbearable. They'd also probably have to stick some skinny, undersized tires and wheels on it, in an attempt to shave weight everyplace imaginable, and lighten it up so much that it would set crash test standards back a good 20 years or more!
At least, if they want to keep the car affordable. They could go the other route and engineer in expensive, lightweight alloys and such, but then you'd probably have a car that's priced well out of the range of its intended market.
If you want a "stiff" body, then more weight is needed in the structure. My 86 Buick Electra T-type weighed about 3200 lbs, but was far from a "stiff" structure. When the transmission downshifted into 2nd gear, there was noticable flexing. Most of the problem was that the engine-transmission was not supported as well as it should have been.
A body design with noticable flexing can be made cheaper and lighter. It will not be as good in a crash either.
If you want a "stiff" body, then more weight is needed in the structure.
One thing I noticed about the Saturn Aura, when I first sat in one, was that the area around the door openings seemed especially thick and beefy, with a wide sill and thick B-pillar base and such. However, it does seem like a lot of cars are going with that trend, no doubt to beef up on side impact protection.
It does look like the Aura is about 100-300 pounds heavier than most of its immediate competitors, at least according to Edmunds. However, they compare the base 3.5 Aura XE to V-6 versions of the Altima, Accord, Camry, and Sonata. Many people might prefer to compare them to base versions of those cars, which would have a 4-cyl.
Very true. In looking at the European volumes last year VW sold a total of 3,000,000 vehicles so there is some appreciable volume/sharing there. The next one is Mercedes with 726K but a lot of that is vehicles not sold here and trucks. So they may get some volume for the US sold vehicles but still not huge 300k + volumes per model. BMw is about the same but slightly lower volume.
Anyways nobody is selling millions of volume in each model except perhaps Toyota and Honda with their main 2 models.
Now that Saturn has proven to me that it does not step on the other GM divisions feet I can feel more comfortable that GM can have an entry level division (Chev), a mid level division (Pontiac RWD sporty, Buick Luxury, GMC truck), and an uplevel channel (Cadillac/Saab/Hummer).
So, what is Saturn in GM? Entry, mid, up or what? Hasn't the Saturn experiment started 20+ years ago to compete with Civic and Toyota Corola turned out to be a failure? GM seems to have lost the low entry level battle with Toyota.
In fact only the Impala, Cobalt, Accord, Civic, Altima, Camry, Corolla sold over 200,000 units last year. The big seller the Camry sold 450,000 units but the 2nd place Accord sold 350,000 units. Then Civic at 316,000, Impala at 290K and Corolla at 272K, Cobalt at 211,000.
An interesting statistic would be volume per dealer. Toyota has less dealers than Chevrolet but is still able to sell more Camrys per dealer than Chevy dealers do with Impala.
It took Mazda just a bit over three years to build one million Mazda3's. Add in the Volvo S40 and Euro Focus, and there's some fairly hefty volume for one platform.
So, what is Saturn in GM? Entry, mid, up or what? Hasn't the Saturn experiment started 20+ years ago to compete with Civic and Toyota Corola turned out to be a failure? GM seems to have lost the low entry level battle with Toyota.
GM lost the battle for years because they did not fight it. They went gangbusters and did well with initial models but then did not keep up the offense with new models/improvements. GM management/divisions were so pissed at Smith that they cut Saturn off at the knees. Only recently have they decided to bring them back with new models to compete with the imports. The new Astra will bring up the Civic/Corolla vanguard and only time will tell if it is as succesful as the Sky/Outlook/Aura are starting out to be. Anybody know where the Edmunds article is that touted Saturn models?
An interesting statistic would be volume per dealer. Toyota has less dealers than Chevrolet but is still able to sell more Camrys per dealer than Chevy dealers do with Impala.
Not sure what this has to do with niche marketing? But all know that one issue is that as GM volume went down dealership numbers did not follow suit.
I used to compare metals when I'd walk through parking lots by tapping on the fenders with joints of my fingers and knuckles. The thinny tinny of the Hondas and Toyotas was amazing. This is late 80s and 90s. I recall shopping the new car lots when I bought a Century and next a LeSabre the same way. I probably left dents just tapping with my knuckles on those cars. They were pathetically thin. No wonder rusting was easy.
Nonsense. Had an 84 and 86 Honda and an 86 Suburban. Kept these for 14,14,13 years and they were all garage kept. The biggest ruster was the Suburban - rear quarters had holes, all doors had rust at bottom, bottom of tail gate. To add insult, the paint on the Suburban hood and roof deteriorated, the roof had light rust on it which I had to sand every few years and spray on rustoleum. In contrast, the Hondas started showing some very light surface rust around wheel wells maybe at the 10 year point. Both Hondas had a beautiful paint finish (no orange peel like GM) that shone brightly till the day the cars were sold.
From my observation, Toyota and Honda had some rust problems in 70's, but GM had these through the 80's, not to mention customers complaining about paint disintegrating on Chevy trucks.
I hope that GM's latest offensive includes paint finishes and metal coatings that can match Honda and Toyota.
Nonsense. Had an 84 and 86 Honda and an 86 Suburban. Kept these for 14,14,13 years and they were all garage kept. The biggest ruster was the Suburban - rear quarters had holes, all doors had rust at bottom, bottom of tail gate.
That's really scary, considering the Suburban was garaged! I often wonder what it is that will make one vehicle rust out at an alarming pace, while another similar one seems to hold up forever? My '85 Silverado has always sat outside from the day Granddad bought it new. And worse, since it was often a spare vehicle and not a daily driver, it would often sit, out of the way, on grass, which can't be good for it.
Yet it really only has one truly nasty rust spot, on the passenger side, where the rocker panel joins the back part of the cab. The passenger side door is rusting slightly along the lower part as well, and there's a spot or two forming around the edges of the rear wheels.
The non-metallic red paint is still shiny, but weak. The last time we had a snow storm, as I was pushing the snow off, it picked up a reddish tint as it slid off the truck. But, for something that's 22 years old, spent most of its life outside, and really hasn't been taken care of (Granddad died back in 1990, and since then none of us have taken care of it to nearly the degree that Granddad would have ) I'd expect it to have these issues. But a 14 year old similar vehicle that is garaged regularly sure shouldn't have them!
However, I will give it this much...its sheetmetal is pretty thick, at least in certain areas. Sometimes the tailgate won't close correctly, and I've had to kick it shut. That's NOT something I'd advise trying on a newer vehicle! And sometimes the door doesn't close correctly either, so I'll just shove against it to make it close, instead of unlocking it, opening it up, and slamming it again. Again, not something I would try with a newer vehicle!
However, it's not indestructible. If I slammed my body against the door, right in the center, I'm sure I'd put a nice, big dent in it.
Other solution is to price the new models like Aura below Accord/ Camry. Sonata does this consistently. It's priced below Accord/ Camry, and it also offers a 10 year warranty.
GM undercut Toyota/ Honda when it offered employee pricing. Now that the employee pricing is history, I see no good reason to dump my Accord for a Malibu/ G6/ Aura. If I choose to dump my Accord, I would do so only to make room for the next generation Accord.
I agree that there is very little chance a good number of us would pick a GM midsize car over Accord. All said and done, this is GM's problem and not Loren's or any other customer's!
Their value will be in the toilet when the 08' Accord comes out and if you didn't save a lot of money last or this year you will be upside down quite a few thousand.
Did you mean the Aura or the Camry? I find it hard to beleive that Camry would lose much if any value. The Aura, I can see!
That is too ridiculous to even comment on, other than to say you are 100% wrong. The Accord is one of the top cars on the market for holding value, and possibly the best all around car ever built. -Loren
Maybe they should show the thousands of scenes of abandoned factories and steel mills from Pennsylvania through Missouri. Maybe they should show scenes of once-productive auto workers living in abject poverty or now working at low-wage jobs.
If Toyota caused what you say (which I think GM has as much blame for inferiority as does Toyota for superiority) then good for Toyota! Hooray for Toyota making good on getting rid of corporate waste that was GM's manufacturing facilities. Why let underperforming workers continue to earn an inflated salary while producing subpar work and craftsmanship? I don't want my fellow American's earning a huge salary making junk. I'd rather they make a reasonable salary making bulletproof Toyota's; either that, or if you don't have the skills, work at McDonalds.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
He means Accord will lose thousands in value when the new model comes out? I'll comment... historically, that is certainly not the case! Not even close!
Nope, totally different buyers for the CTS. I seriously doubt that people looking for those other cars mentioned, even consider the CTS. The Cadillac owner is looking at a compromise between all out performance, and owning an American luxury car which may be a little less in maintenance costs, likely have a closer dealership, be something of a stand-out style wise, as not to blend in with other cars. And they also may be loyal Cadillac line owners. GM did a brilliant move, much like the Chrysler 300, in that the car has some character and can sell without it being the top dog in car reviews, or even overall value. Cadillac style concept returns to GM. -Loren
"Give GM, some of the Japanese advantages and the story would read differently."
Rocky, people gave Gm alot of chances in the 80's/early 90's with the "Buy American Theme" and Gm still didn;t make cars people wanted. Even you admitted GM made bad cars when Roger Smith was CEO but its just nowGM has started to get its about the product.
I think Camry's inflated reputation is starting to work against it. People approach it with such great expectations only to be let down when they see it is really no better than any other car out there.
Now if that were true why has the Camry sold so well for year after year after year for more than a decade now! Why are there so many REPEAT loyalty Camry buyers? My parents are one of them, they never bought a car two times in a row until their '95 Camry and '01 Camry combination.
Resale and trade-ins occur for many reasons. Maybe they wanted the 01 because it got better mileage than the 95. Maybe they wanted the 01 because it had more HP than the 95? Could be anything, but it certainly wasn't because the 95 was starting to fall apart; far from it! That car sold for $3,500 and I think he undersold it; being it only had 120K miles. It still ran smoothly and I think his total repair bill on that vehicle from day one amounted to around $1,000 other than regular maintenance (for 11 years! - new motor mounts was the main thing recommended and replaced).
Also, resale is HUGE in situations such as that what just happened to my wife. Her 2 year old 05 Civic EX was rear ended at high speed and declared totalled with only 25,985 miles. She paid $18,000 (not including fees/TTL) for the car and the insurance company will be giving her $16,888 cash value, then you get more for taxes, registration refund, and DMV transfer. Had she bought an $18,000 domestic vehicle of any type '05 model, what do you think would have been the insurance companies offer??? Maybe $10,000 if she was lucky!
Don't think you can keep your vehicle "forever" even if it'll run forever like her Civic would have. There's a lot of bad drivers out there that can cause an accident you can't avoid, and shamefully most of them are uninsured or underinsured (luckily I was well covered for uninsured claims including deductible waiver).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Well, I don't work for GM. I take it you do? As for buying a GM, there is always a chance that some day I just may take the plunge again. First and foremost they have to still be making cars, as I imagine the Accord will last me now for many miles down the road. Next car, more likely will be one for sport / car club. -Loren
"The XE Aura price with discounts seemed pretty fair, so I got a quote on the car with my trade-in of the PT. Well the trade-in price wasn't too great."
I was just curious but did you get a quote from alot of different Saturn dealers on your PT trade in or just one Saturn dealer gave you a trade in quote on your PT?
Yeah true I would have to agree with Rocky that the CTS does compete with the TL even though the CTS is RWD and the TL is FWD. I do think maybe the CTS does compete with the Chrysler 300(the 255 HP V-6 version of it) too.
I realize this. Unfortunately, they have to sell more than one car you will buy to support your claim. Got ya on that one.
If I ever buy an Acura, Lexus, or other cars in the near luxury range, I would be looking one notch over the cars which seem to be more like the parent platform and look more towards what seems the more real deal. In other words, the FWD Lexus is but a Camry. Now in the Cadillac line the CTS with the 3.6V6 would be fine enough, but then again it is around $34K or so to buy. At the moment, the Accord SEV6 is the best deal out there, in its price range, and even slightly above. Don't believe me -- go drive one a few times. Look over the entire car with a magnifying glass -- try it - you'll like it! -Loren
Comments
Huh ? You've seen a pic somewhere pal ? :surprise:
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Huh ? Best car money can buy for under $30K ? Lemme see, uhhhhhh Camry, Aura, Monte Carlo SS, Acura TSX, Nissan Altima, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Mustang GT, Carolla, G6, LaCrosse, are all models I'd pick over the Accord, off the top of my head. If you lemme pick what I'd actually pay for them which would be under $30K I could throw in at least 25 more.
Rocky
Rocky
bumpy, that is stretching it quite a bit their pal.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Honda, is pushing the Accords out the door but not at bottom bargain basement prices. :confuse: I suppose if you can save lets say $6,000-7,000 off MSRP it might be a good buy. Their value will be in the toilet when the 08' Accord comes out and if you didn't save a lot of money last or this year you will be upside down quite a few thousand.
Rocky
Our's isn't exactly faring much better. :confuse:
Rocky
Rocky
The thickness of the steel on the painted metal? body panels were about Campbells soup can thick.
Back in the days that are now the good old days of great foreign brands, I used to compare metals when I'd walk through parking lots by tapping on the fenders with joints of my fingers and knuckles. The thinny tinny of the Hondas and Toyotas was amazing. This is late 80s and 90s. I recall shopping the new car lots when I bought a Century and next a LeSabre the same way. I probably left dents just tapping with my knuckles on those cars. They were pathetically thin. No wonder rusting was easy.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I see the G6 going RWD on the new midsize Zeta platform that the Holdenguy let us know about. This will delay it a bit but well worth GM waiting. GM will have the new Malibu and Aura to make up for the volume as the G6 gets older and goes RWD. Impala will also go RWD albiet a bit larger than the Eps 2.
GMs brand strategy seems to be working. Saturn, per an Edmunds article here, does not take any sales from any GM products. The top 10 considerers in every model is conquest. Not one GM product. In other words the person that bought an Aura/Sky/Acadia did not seriously consider GM products. Pretty amazing.
Now that Saturn has proven to me that it does not step on the other GM divisions feet I can feel more comfortable that GM can have an entry level division (Chev), a mid level division (Pontiac RWD sporty, Buick Luxury, GMC truck), and an uplevel channel (Cadillac/Saab/Hummer).
There have been quite a few articles in the press (last couple years) that the future is niche marketing. The company that can build niche cars at a profit will make it. As proof there are only a few CARS that sell close to 300,000 units a year. Most sell under 100,000 and they are not going away.
In fact only the Impala, Cobalt, Accord, Civic, Altima, Camry, Corolla sold over 200,000 units last year. The big seller the Camry sold 450,000 units but the 2nd place Accord sold 350,000 units. Then Civic at 316,000, Impala at 290K and Corolla at 272K, Cobalt at 211,000.
Everyone else is under 200,000 units per year and most much lower. So 7 models sell over 200,000 per year while there are over a 100 other models selling under 200,000 units and most well below 100,000 units.
The question is what will GM do with the Chrysler products. :P
One that got away was a black 1950 Buick Roadmaster when I was in college. As a broke student, I didn't even have the $600 asking price for a solid-bodied, good-chromed well-runnning example that some idiot would probably be asking $10,000 today at Carlisle. Anyway, this car had a big six-volt battery that looked almost as big as the engine block.
I remember the 1988 Honda Accord with the pop-up lights being very popular. Funny, I can't find one now for how many there were back in the day.
Oh, man! Too bad I didn't know you back then.... That would have been awfully close to my grandfather's car. Wrong year right color.
I did have an old Buick once as a hobby car -a 56 Special. Nothing that would bring in the big bucks but it was a fun toy and got noticed. I bought it for $600 and sold it for $600. I followed it for two more sales which were also $600.
Sorry Rocky, but there is no such thing as "good" weight. A 2900-pound Aura would be a significantly better performer and driver in every conceivable way.
:P
What did they do to the frame and suspension?
Under 200,000 in this country. Many of the nondomestic models sell in appreciable numbers on other continents, which helps out on the economics. GM's challenge is to gets its models to do likewise (which they do seem to be working on).
Yeah, but a 2900 pound Aura would squeak and rattle and shake like a '76 Eldorado convertible over railroad crossings. They'd have to cut the sound insulation to the point that it would be unbearable. They'd also probably have to stick some skinny, undersized tires and wheels on it, in an attempt to shave weight everyplace imaginable, and lighten it up so much that it would set crash test standards back a good 20 years or more!
At least, if they want to keep the car affordable. They could go the other route and engineer in expensive, lightweight alloys and such, but then you'd probably have a car that's priced well out of the range of its intended market.
A body design with noticable flexing can be made cheaper and lighter. It will not be as good in a crash either.
One thing I noticed about the Saturn Aura, when I first sat in one, was that the area around the door openings seemed especially thick and beefy, with a wide sill and thick B-pillar base and such. However, it does seem like a lot of cars are going with that trend, no doubt to beef up on side impact protection.
It does look like the Aura is about 100-300 pounds heavier than most of its immediate competitors, at least according to Edmunds. However, they compare the base 3.5 Aura XE to V-6 versions of the Altima, Accord, Camry, and Sonata. Many people might prefer to compare them to base versions of those cars, which would have a 4-cyl.
Anyways nobody is selling millions of volume in each model except perhaps Toyota and Honda with their main 2 models.
So, what is Saturn in GM? Entry, mid, up or what? Hasn't the Saturn experiment started 20+ years ago to compete with Civic and Toyota Corola turned out to be a failure? GM seems to have lost the low entry level battle with Toyota.
In fact only the Impala, Cobalt, Accord, Civic, Altima, Camry, Corolla sold over 200,000 units last year. The big seller the Camry sold 450,000 units but the 2nd place Accord sold 350,000 units. Then Civic at 316,000, Impala at 290K and Corolla at 272K, Cobalt at 211,000.
An interesting statistic would be volume per dealer. Toyota has less dealers than Chevrolet but is still able to sell more Camrys per dealer than Chevy dealers do with Impala.
Japanese Big Five Carmakers' Output, Sales, Exports, May 2006
Global Production
Toyota- 639,512; Nissan- 248,349; Honda- 297,065; Mitsubishi- 101,801; Mazda- 91,301
Overseas Production
Toyota- 340,267; Nissan- 166,798; Honda- 203,020; Mitsubishi- 51,377; Mazda- 23,551
Domestic (Japan) Production
Toyota- 299,245; Nissan- 81,551; Honda- 94,045; Mitsubishi- 50,424; Mazda- 67,750
Domestic (Japan) Sales
Toyota- 120,633; Nissan- 51,656; Honda- 48,501; Mitsubishi- 16,888; Mazda- 20,227
Exports from Japan
Toyota- 197,608; Nissan- 41,772; Honda- 48,270; Mitsubishi- 34,457; Mazda- 52,072
GM lost the battle for years because they did not fight it. They went gangbusters and did well with initial models but then did not keep up the offense with new models/improvements. GM management/divisions were so pissed at Smith that they cut Saturn off at the knees. Only recently have they decided to bring them back with new models to compete with the imports. The new Astra will bring up the Civic/Corolla vanguard and only time will tell if it is as succesful as the Sky/Outlook/Aura are starting out to be. Anybody know where the Edmunds article is that touted Saturn models?
Not sure what this has to do with niche marketing? But all know that one issue is that as GM volume went down dealership numbers did not follow suit.
Nonsense. Had an 84 and 86 Honda and an 86 Suburban. Kept these for 14,14,13 years and they were all garage kept. The biggest ruster was the Suburban - rear quarters had holes, all doors had rust at bottom, bottom of tail gate. To add insult, the paint on the Suburban hood and roof deteriorated, the roof had light rust on it which I had to sand every few years and spray on rustoleum. In contrast, the Hondas started showing some very light surface rust around wheel wells maybe at the 10 year point. Both Hondas had a beautiful paint finish (no orange peel like GM) that shone brightly till the day the cars were sold.
From my observation, Toyota and Honda had some rust problems in 70's, but GM had these through the 80's, not to mention customers complaining about paint disintegrating on Chevy trucks.
I hope that GM's latest offensive includes paint finishes and metal coatings that can match Honda and Toyota.
That's really scary, considering the Suburban was garaged! I often wonder what it is that will make one vehicle rust out at an alarming pace, while another similar one seems to hold up forever? My '85 Silverado has always sat outside from the day Granddad bought it new. And worse, since it was often a spare vehicle and not a daily driver, it would often sit, out of the way, on grass, which can't be good for it.
Yet it really only has one truly nasty rust spot, on the passenger side, where the rocker panel joins the back part of the cab. The passenger side door is rusting slightly along the lower part as well, and there's a spot or two forming around the edges of the rear wheels.
The non-metallic red paint is still shiny, but weak. The last time we had a snow storm, as I was pushing the snow off, it picked up a reddish tint as it slid off the truck. But, for something that's 22 years old, spent most of its life outside, and really hasn't been taken care of (Granddad died back in 1990, and since then none of us have taken care of it to nearly the degree that Granddad would have
However, I will give it this much...its sheetmetal is pretty thick, at least in certain areas. Sometimes the tailgate won't close correctly, and I've had to kick it shut. That's NOT something I'd advise trying on a newer vehicle! And sometimes the door doesn't close correctly either, so I'll just shove against it to make it close, instead of unlocking it, opening it up, and slamming it again. Again, not something I would try with a newer vehicle!
However, it's not indestructible. If I slammed my body against the door, right in the center, I'm sure I'd put a nice, big dent in it.
GM undercut Toyota/ Honda when it offered employee pricing. Now that the employee pricing is history, I see no good reason to dump my Accord for a Malibu/ G6/ Aura. If I choose to dump my Accord, I would do so only to make room for the next generation Accord.
Did you mean the Aura or the Camry? I find it hard to beleive that Camry would lose much if any value. The Aura, I can see!
-Loren
If Toyota caused what you say (which I think GM has as much blame for inferiority as does Toyota for superiority) then good for Toyota! Hooray for Toyota making good on getting rid of corporate waste that was GM's manufacturing facilities. Why let underperforming workers continue to earn an inflated salary while producing subpar work and craftsmanship? I don't want my fellow American's earning a huge salary making junk. I'd rather they make a reasonable salary making bulletproof Toyota's; either that, or if you don't have the skills, work at McDonalds.
-Loren
Rocky, people gave Gm alot of chances in the 80's/early 90's with the "Buy American Theme" and Gm still didn;t make cars people wanted. Even you admitted GM made bad cars when Roger Smith was CEO but its just nowGM has started to get its about the product.
Now if that were true why has the Camry sold so well for year after year after year for more than a decade now! Why are there so many REPEAT loyalty Camry buyers? My parents are one of them, they never bought a car two times in a row until their '95 Camry and '01 Camry combination.
Resale and trade-ins occur for many reasons. Maybe they wanted the 01 because it got better mileage than the 95. Maybe they wanted the 01 because it had more HP than the 95? Could be anything, but it certainly wasn't because the 95 was starting to fall apart; far from it! That car sold for $3,500 and I think he undersold it; being it only had 120K miles. It still ran smoothly and I think his total repair bill on that vehicle from day one amounted to around $1,000 other than regular maintenance (for 11 years! - new motor mounts was the main thing recommended and replaced).
Also, resale is HUGE in situations such as that what just happened to my wife. Her 2 year old 05 Civic EX was rear ended at high speed and declared totalled with only 25,985 miles. She paid $18,000 (not including fees/TTL) for the car and the insurance company will be giving her $16,888 cash value, then you get more for taxes, registration refund, and DMV transfer. Had she bought an $18,000 domestic vehicle of any type '05 model, what do you think would have been the insurance companies offer??? Maybe $10,000 if she was lucky!
Don't think you can keep your vehicle "forever" even if it'll run forever like her Civic would have. There's a lot of bad drivers out there that can cause an accident you can't avoid, and shamefully most of them are uninsured or underinsured (luckily I was well covered for uninsured claims including deductible waiver).
-Loren
.....Thats if GM buys Chrysler.
I was just curious but did you get a quote from alot of different Saturn dealers on your PT trade in or just one Saturn dealer gave you a trade in quote on your PT?
If I ever buy an Acura, Lexus, or other cars in the near luxury range, I would be looking one notch over the cars which seem to be more like the parent platform and look more towards what seems the more real deal. In other words, the FWD Lexus is but a Camry. Now in the Cadillac line the CTS with the 3.6V6 would be fine enough, but then again it is around $34K or so to buy. At the moment, the Accord SEV6 is the best deal out there, in its price range, and even slightly above. Don't believe me -- go drive one a few times. Look over the entire car with a magnifying glass -- try it - you'll like it!
-Loren