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  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    puts them on par with all the other major automakers, in terms of having a highly versatile V-6 they can use in lots of places.

    Toyota has its modular 3.5 making around 270 hp in most applications, Nissan has the 3.5 VQ, doing the same (but making more than 300 hp in the new Z car), Ford has its new 3.5 which is in the same ballpark and slated for use across the line. Only Honda is sticking with 2 different engines, one for the larger Acuras, and the other for Hondas and smaller cars. And Chrysler is the major exception - why are they still using three different V-6s and pushing the Hemi as their halo engine? Even with VCM it is a guzzler in a time of high gas prices. Hence the large drop in 300C sales - you can't give them away now.

    Toyota has been using DI in the 3.5 since it showed up in the IS and GS. I wish I knew if Nissan uses DI in the Infiniti line. MB and BMW are already moving beyond that point - BMW especially with its Valvetronic which is showing up in most of the models now.

    DI is a great way to flatten the torque curve and extract some extra power, while improving fuel economy and emissions without making the engine bigger.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    So does the Northstar go into retirement, other than the Supercharged version?

    So the new standard engine for the CTS is the 300HP 3.6? The 18/27 MPG is OK, I guess, as compared to the V8, which could be dropped.

    So this DI technology is already used in a handful of North American cars? Does this mean it is road tested technology? Sounds interesting.

    Will the price on a CTS remain around $31K in base dress? Wonder why the price is so high on the DTS at $42K?
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    OK, it is in use on the road. So any problems with DI ? This will be the new standard?
    Loren
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    Wow! A 300-hp V-6 engine! Oh wait! Haven't we seen this before?

    Infiniti: 306 hp in the G35, 330 hp in the upcoming G37 coupe.
    Lexus: 306hp in the IS350, 303hp in the GS350
    BMW: 300hp AND 300 lb-ft
    Acura: 300hp (in the MDX)

    Sorry if this sounded sarcastic, but GM is still playing catch up. And 19/27 mpg is not all that impressive either. The 303 hp GS350 is rated at 21/29 mpg. (these are 2007 ratings).
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Actually, DI has BEEN around. Indeed, making news about two years ago was the first turbo charged application of DI in a production model: the new A3, with the 2.0T that has since come to dominate VW Group offerings from top to bottom.

    DI will I believe, with its ability to improve emissions and fuel economy without doing much else except adding some small cost, rapidly make its way down the ranks at Toyota and Nissan, and should hopefully also do so at GM. Honda has been busy working on its new V-10 (!!) but should add this to its line-up along with increasing availability of VCM (cylinder shut-off).

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    The redesigned LaCrosse sedan will be the first American Buick vehicle co-developed with engineers and stylists in China.

    The car is expected to debut in 2009, developed on General Motors' re-engineered Epsilon 2 front-drive architecture.

    "There is joint development going on," said David Smidebush, Buick and Pontiac product director. "It is not that dissimilar to what Saturn and Opel are doing on global platforms."

    http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070327/FREE/70326014/1528/SEARC- H
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM up 5% retail in Florida, Texas and California,

    Saturn Up 59.4% in February, Outlook has 71% conquest rate
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    In the hope of helping the domestics survive and in the spirit of partnership the UAW is taking it easy with them with their demands this year:

    Seeking a reduction in the standard work week with no loss in pay. That could include five days of fewer than eight hours, or a compressed work week of four nine-hour days, according to the resolution.

    Resisting further shifting of health care costs to workers. GM, Ford and Chrysler are expected to press hard for UAW members to pay more for health care. Health care benefits are estimated to add $1,000 to the cost of every domestic vehicle. GM. is the largest private purchaser of health care in the United States, and reducing its annual $4.8 billion health care bill is a key goal.

    Improving the funding status of pension plans and making it more difficult for companies to replace traditional pension plans with employee-contribution plans, such as 401(k)s.

    Protecting the rights of workers who are employed by a bankrupt company. That includes "seeking membership on creditors' committees and otherwise engaging in the bankruptcy process," according to the resolution. The union also says it will be "vigorously contesting motions to cancel collective bargaining agreements and discontinue retiree benefits." Several auto suppliers have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in recent years, most notably Delphi, GM's former parts unit.

    Closing the gap between workers' pay and executive bonuses.

    The union's four-year contracts with GM, Ford and Chrysler expire Sept. 14. The convention unofficially starts today with a protest by rank-and-file members, some of whom will pass out petitions demanding no more concessions. The petition has already been signed by 2,500 auto workers in Metro Detroit, according to protest organizers.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am not sure how the contract is written. Our Union did not ask us to pay for health care, they cut the benefits as costs inflated. In the 1970s we had 100% medical, dental & eyecare. The first reduction was in the dental. Then in the 1980s retirees no longer received health care. They slowly chewed away our benefits and raised the premium the companies paid. As a retiree, I am now for the first time after 45 years of working, paying for health care.

    I just accept it as a fact of life. Just as the UAW workers will need to pay their share. I am thankful for all the years that my family was covered. My children do not have that luxury. They are paying for their own.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I wish I knew if Nissan uses DI in the Infiniti line.

    No, but Japanese-market VQs have had it for a while.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    The BMW engine is turbocharged and the other engines you mentioned have come out relatively recently. The RL was the first with a high powered V6 and that was followed by the 306hp engine in the IS. You are acting like these engines have been out for 5 years when most of them are less than 2 years old.

    Where has the mileage of the CTS with the been listed? You dont know if its worse than the GS350.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    "You are acting like these engines have been out for 5 years when most of them are less than 2 years old"

    What difference does it make? They stole the 'wow' factor from GM.

    Where has the mileage of the CTS with the been listed? You dont know if its worse than the GS350""


    I won't answer that. You go do your own search and come back to us with your results.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    That's an interesting statistic - how do you break out just those states? I am curious.

    I bet retail sales increases in California are largely the result of the revamp of the Saturn line - can you confirm that with the data you are accessing?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The turbo charged 4 cylinder engine in the Solstice is direct injection, so GM is not so far behind in developing DI. I think that the northstar will be replaced by a DI V8 in the near future, the project name is Ultra.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Came from an interview, no other stats.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I would really like to see a torque curve for all of these engines. We can see the torque curves for most (if not all) of GM's engines on their website. The G35's peak torque is at nearly 5000 RPMs, which is not good, but perhaps there is a lowend peak too. My guess is that low end torque below 2000 RPMs is 80% of the peak. GM's lowend torque on the CTS V6 is about 90% of peak.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,745
    What is the site link for GM's torque/horsepower graphs? I lost the link.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The DI 3.6 is not a production engine yet, so there is no graph. However, the current CTS 3.6 is here:
    http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/HPT%20Library/HFV6/20- 07_36L_LY7_CTS.pdf
    The G6 3.6:
    http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/HPT%20Library/HFV6/20- 07_36L_LY7_G6.pdf
    The G6 engine is much better at lowend torque than the CTS version. The CTS does drop to 80% at 1200 RPMs, but is 90% at 1700 or so.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    what size ring gear does the regular CTS have? I assume the -V gets a larger one.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    the mileage for the 2008 CTS has NOT been released. No amount of research is going to yield information on that. The current model gets 18/27 but the new one has a 6 speed auto and DI.

    It's not about "wow" factor, its about the new class standard for V6s in this price range. The CTS isnt the first with a 300hp V6, but it's also not the last. Jaguar, Lincoln, Volvo, MB and Audi do not have V6s on this level yet. The 2008 C class will only have 268hp in its top V6 engine. where is the "wow" factor in that?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said today that he's concerned about private equity funds in the auto industry and that the union is making more than its fair share of sacrifices to help the Detroit 3 stay competitive.

    Health care concessions last year and a series of work-rule changes at factories over the past several months demonstrate that the UAW is willing to help, Gettelfinger said.

    "But, again, we're not going to be the only ones who always give," he said.

    Gettelfinger was interviewed this morning while greeting delegates coming into the 2007 Special Convention on Collective Bargaining at Cobo Center here.

    He will officially open the convention with a keynote address this morning.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    GM had a production DI engine on the market before MB, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan or Honda. Kind of hard to be behind the times when you introduce technology before all those major players. I'm not even sure if BMW beat GM to market with a production DI engine because the 300hp 3L turbo has only been out since last fall. We can round it off and say GM and BMW came out with DI engines about the same time.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I know that one hold up on production DI was getting fuel standards upgraded to allow GM to make the type of DI that they wanted. The fuel industry wanted them to use lower quality fuels by using a different DI system. I don't know what the outcome was exactly.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    GM had a production DI engine on the market before MB, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan or Honda. Kind of hard to be behind the times when you introduce technology before all those major players.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

    Both the 1952 Goliath GP700, and Gutbrod Superior 600, used Bosch direct fuel injection. The 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300SL, the first sports car to use fuel injection, used direct injection.

    It was not until 1996 that gasoline direct injection reappeared on the market. Mitsubishi Motors was the first with a GDI engine in the Japanese market Galant/Legnum's 4G93 1.8 L straight-4,[1] which it subsequently brought to Europe in 1997 in the Mitsubishi Carisma,[2]......

    Looks like little ol' Mitsu beat Goliath GM to the punch but I wouldn't expect that to be in the GM sales literature...
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Again, fuel standards were a holdup. Fuel standards in Europe may have been better than here, but perhaps not. Very likely Mitsu went with a DI that could use lower standard fuels, but the advantages of the DI are reduced in that case. The wiki site confirms what I just said.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    GM has stated that it will get better fuel economy that the base 3.6, so the 18/27 rating should remain at a minimum. The six speed automatic should improve the highway rating too, so an 18/28 rating for the automatic DI 3.6 is possible, perhaps 19/29 is even possible.

    But the new EPA ratings will probably reduce the numbers to some unpredictable range. However, the current ratings will all be reduced to some new range.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    wouldnt expect you to mention products sold here in the US. Even if Mitsu had it back in 1996 they don't use it today so obviously they must not have perfected the technology. As for the 1955 300SL, that is good to know, but the 2007 SL doesnt have DI technology under the hood. All of my claims pertain to vehicles sold in the US in the modern era. DI as we know it was first used on VW products here in the US.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Didn't think point of sale was part of the criteria...

    Just making it known that GM is not some "technological tour de force" that some claim them to be. Sorry, this is not the 1950's or 60's. GM is a leader of nothing in this day and age. That ship sailed about 25 30 years ago.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    DI as we know it was first used on VW products here in the US.

    Isuzu in 2004.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    you are absolutely right. GM has not ever pioneered anything in the automotive industry. Of course we should overlook that they beat MB and BMW to the hybrid game, they came up with Onstar which is used by Acura and Lexus, they they introduced stabilitrak before everyone save MB (and that was only on S and CL), that they make several engines more powerful than anything offered by Toyota, Honda or Nissan, they introduced 6 speed autos before Honda, Hyundai or Nissan etc.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    wow, you are right. Talk about an obscure application. well VW was the first to use it widely and STICK with it. How about that?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Info on the new Buicks has been released today. The Lacrosse and Lucerne get new front ends and more power. The Lacrosse has the 5.3L V8 and 18" wheels. Lucerne gets 292hp northstar and styling upgrades.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Lucerne gets 292hp northstar

    :confuse:

    I thought it already had a Northstar option?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    it does, but it gets the more powerful version. I dont think 17hp makes much of a difference but whatever. GM might as well dump the 275hp version of the engine at this point. The bottom line is that the Lacrosse Super has more power and will be substantially faster than the Lucerne Super but this is no surprise. I'm sure the Lucerne V8 is fast enough for most potential buyers. I like the interior of the Lucerne Super a lot, but the new grille doesnt work for me. The exterior changes to the Lacrosse are nice, if not dramatic. It also gets more standard equipment across the board for 2008.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I'm sure the Lucerne V8 is fast enough for most potential buyers. I like the interior of the Lucerne Super a lot, but the new grille doesnt work for me. The exterior changes to the Lacrosse are nice, if not dramatic. It also gets more standard equipment across the board for 2008.

    Will any of that matter? According to GM web site, Buick sales down in Feb (from 06) by 30%, down in Jan (from 06) by 33% and down in 2006 (from 05) by 15%. Buying public is apparently going elsewhere. Or, is it the age factor, in that Buick's traditional buyers are dying away.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,745
    >Buick's traditional buyers are dying

    But you know, there are new 50-somethings being created every day! :)

    I think the LaCross is down and the Rendezvous is way down. For total Buick sales that would explain it to me. I see mjore and more Lucernes every day.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Buick's traditional buyers are dying

    But you know, there are new 50-somethings being created every day!


    Yeah, but many of the new 50 somethings grew up buying alternative vehicles from Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc and not what their fathers drove. Wouldn't think too many would jump ship from a Honda, Toyota, Nissan (and lately Hyundai) to a Buick. Cars like Hyundai Azera, Nissan Maxima, Toyota Avalon may be capturing many old-line Buick buyers.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    no, its the reduction in fleet sales and model reduction that is killing their sales. GM has already said Buicks sales are likely to decrease for a while until they get to their core lineup. The Rainer and Terraza are about to be phased out and having been losing sales for some time now. There is nothing wrong with having 50+ buyers for your brand, just ask Toyota. When is the last time you saw someone under 60 driving an Avalon. Older people buy all types of cars so the "their customers are dying off" argument is ridiculous. Most ES350 drivers I see are 50+ and no one would say that model is doing poorly because of that.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Another site had 2008 STS info posted but it has been removed. The interior is slightly different and it gets a 298hp V6 standard. exterior gets new grille and side vents.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,745
    As 1487 pointed out, kind of fanciful thinking. :)

    > new 50 somethings grew up buying alternative vehicles from

    From the seats I felt in the Accords I sat in and the complaints coming in the Camry 2007 area, I don't think that will last long, if at all. :)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Possibly the biggest innovation came from Cadillac with the electric starter for an automobile. This changed everything. And here is a good read CADILLAC HERITAGE
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    More likely though that the new 50 something age customers are still going to be buying Honda and Toyotas. That is unless something catches their eye, and tickles their fancy. Saturn Aura maybe - Cadillac is a maybe and cars like the Corvette are something people may have on a wish list for when they can afford such a car. A Buick? Not sure that is something on the radar screen.
    Loren
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, a Buick is on my radar screen like an asteroid the size of Montanna!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yeah, lemko, but they are on your screen since your teen days right? I think it'll be drastically different with those whom have Honda/Toyota for the last 10 or 20 years of their life.

    It'll only be more and more difficult for Buick to be appealed to the current 20-something-year-old. Just take a walk around any university's parking lot and count how many Buick that you see. I'll bet you won't be able to use all your fingers...
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Some of the reasons for Buicks drop in sales over last few years:

    Buick stigma as old persons car and older folks not buying any longer (dieing or no longer buying),

    Fewer products to sell (down to 3)

    rental penetration down in last few years

    ATP's way up-No longer selling $19,995 MSRP Centurys

    Product aimed very well at traditional Buick buyers

    With the strategy of sharing vehicles with the China market and the dualing of GMC/Pontiac/Buick I do not see Buick going away anytime soon AND Buick still makes a good profit for GM.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I think you are more likely to see a 50 something in a 1965 Riviera classic car than in a current model. The Buick pair of cars are not ugly by any means, but they simply lack any compelling reason to own. Back when Buick was still in the game, like the '65, it was something to behold. A Cadillac CTS is something pretty special. But a LaCrosse, while being a pleasant, somewhat dated style, is not a stand out in any way. It is not an Accord for performance, and features like stability control and such below $24K. The Lucerne is not too bad, yet it is seen as just another larger car, nothing too styling or exemplary in performance. Just a poorman's Cadillac, with almost the same poor resale value. Now someone my age may buy the classic Buick, as it was pre-seventies as the golden era of Buick, and GM. Looking forward, those GM cars bought by 50 something people will be more current in style, even retro-current styles, up to date for technology, better handling, and with a more youthful image.
    Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    If it was me I would just shut down the Chrysler truck part if GM bought Chrysler. Get rid of the competition, not sell it so someone else can compete with you.

    General Motors Corp. probably would have to sell at least part of the light
    truck division of DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler unit to clear U.S.
    antitrust review in any potential takeover, two analysts said.

    “A GM-Chrysler merger would require GM to divest most, if not all, of
    Chrysler's truck assets,” Bear Stearns & Co.'s Peter Nesvold in New York
    said today in a research note. “This is highly unattractive, based on the
    disproportionate amount of profit that the truck assets contribute.”
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    no, its the reduction in fleet sales and model reduction that is killing their sales. GM has already said Buicks sales are likely to decrease for a while until they get to their core lineup.

    "for a while". Just how long is a while. When will it turn around. And, Jan-Feb this year did not look promising.

    If one does a regression chart (Excel) on Buick sales from 2002 to 2006, per GM web site data, sales will be zero in 2011 per slope of trend line. Sales have been going down since 2002. Sales (in Thous) in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 were 432, 337, 310, 282, 241 resp.

    Lets hope that their upcoming crossover is a resounding success. Enclave. Wonder if any potential Lexus RX330 buyers will consider this crossover. They might bring people in to dealers if price were materially less than the Lexus.

    And, as others I think have said, maybe the Chinese Lacrosse styling if used in US would help some. They got to get rid of the stodgy old f--t styling.

    They really need a knockout car like Chrysler 300.
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