General Motors discussions

mediapusher

xrunner2, I'm almost part of that group and GM cars aren't even on my radar screen. Why would I want to be fooolish with my money?

You don't even have to start at 50 something, the 40 somethings, 30 somethings and 20 something aren't buying GM either and for good reason.

GM doesn't seem to realize that a good reputation goes a long way when it comes to how well they'll be able to sell a car in the long run. GM seemed intent on destroying their reputation in the 70's 80's 90's and now they wonder why people don't want their cars. It's laughable

nippononly

GM has announced that China Buick will collaborate with GM NA to design the next Lacrosse or Lucerne. Will they also build them in China and ship them over here?

Why is the Lacrosse now going to have a more powerful engine than the most powerful in the Lucerne? Isn't this kind of backwards? Why can't they both have the same optional engine?

I am curious to see where Buick sales are in 2011. Gas may be $6/gallon by then, and maybe a gazillion-hp V8 will pinch the gas budgets of consumers a little more than is really optimal. Buick doesn't really occupy the spot that MB, BMW, perhaps Lexus, and all the boutique brands occupy, where gas costs are of no consequence. It's in a price-sensitive range. Might be nice to have a nice gas-saver powertrain available by then in addition - perhaps gen-II of the Saturn hybrid system?

I am also very curious to see how the Enclave does for sales. I think of this vehicle primarily as a people mover, so it is my contention that it will sell least well of the triplets. But the Buick version is a 5-seater, not 7, right? So I could be wrong there. I suppose its primary competition is the RX350 and ML350, perhaps the XC90 as well? Strong sellers all.

m1miata

Buick, the all American car, made in China? Interesting. So what do you think will happen with sales once they do that? Are you sure about this? Sure thought I was looking at these all American, apple pie, and American Revolution ads on TV. You must be mistaken.

If Chrysler is sold, I wonder how it will effect the selling of Chery cars here in the States. Will this Chinese company have the same relationship with the New Chrysler company. Perhaps they may end up on GM sales lots instead. It is a World of change.
Loren

62vetteefp

GM has announced that China Buick will collaborate with GM NA to design the next Lacrosse or Lucerne. Will they also build them in China and ship them over here?

NO, but some parts will be built in one country and shipped to the other. However there will be a lot of parts that are sourced to one company but built in both contries.

Why is the Lacrosse now going to have a more powerful engine than the most powerful in the Lucerne? Isn't this kind of backwards? Why can't they both have the same optional engine?

Investment: 300 hp V8 was already in the W car platform/plant. 2xx hp V8 was already in the plarform/plant for Lucerne. Remember GM is trying to cut costs.

It's in a price-sensitive range. Might be nice to have a nice gas-saver powertrain available by then in addition - perhaps gen-II of the Saturn hybrid system?

Next LaCrosse is based on Eps 2 and I am sure there will be hybrids available by then. $6 gas? doubt it.

I am also very curious to see how the Enclave does for sales. I think of this vehicle primarily as a people mover, so it is my contention that it will sell least well of the triplets. But the Buick version is a 5-seater, not 7, right?

7 or 8 passenger depending on middle row. It is already sold out through the 2007 normal build period (as early 2008 MY) and will probably be sold out for all of 2007. After this period (in 2008 CY) it will outsell the Saturn but then level off. Most likely the plant will not be able to keep up with all 3 models for a few years and will be running OT.

62vetteefp

Its everywhere. Will be based on Holden RWD Zeta program and built in Oshawas with the Camaro.

No CR does not give good marks to domestics. But JD Powers does give some good marks to domestics and some will say a bit better in how they do statistical control.

62vetteefp

Who knows?

JD Power sends questionairres to a scientifically controlled sample of vehicle owners and makes it's data and statistical methods available to anyone who whats to buy (All the OEM's buy it). CR sends out their questionaires to their magazine subscribers and does not let anyone see how they use the data.

JD Power only uses the data to report out the results and the quantitative results are available to whoever buys them but the highline (brand scores) are given to the press.

CR does not give quantitative data so you really do not know how they actually do relative to each other. They also report out their opinions on the vehicles they test.

How close is a 1/2 red dot to a 1/2 black dot? is it 3 problems delta? Is it .3 problems delta? The world will never know. With Power you know exactly what the delta is if you pay for it. (Again they publish the quantitative numbers for the divisions so you know how nuch better Buick is than Toyota)

62vetteefp

Actually the G8 is a Holden with fascia and other changes.
The Impala will be all new sheet metal and interior. As will the Camaro which will be based on the same platform. Doubt if anyone will confuse the Impala with the Camaro.

1487

Buicks are hardly the only cars not appealing to young people. YOu wont see many Lexus', Bentleys, Mercurys or Chryslers on a college campus either. Buick is never going to appeal to young people, but that doesnt mean it's doomed. Buick needs to be more relevant to buyers that matter, like those 40 and above. Lexus doesnt sell many cars to young people and they are doing just fine.

1487

Let me be clear, Buick's year over year sales are likely to be lower for all of 2007. This has been stated by GM execs previously. They said it's pointless to compare sales on a yearly basis because so many of Buick's sales were fleet. On top of that Buick will have three models by fall 2007 as opposed to 5 in fall 2006. Buick is only one leg of the GMC/Buick/Pontiac family and their lineup is not going to be large in the future. Buick is trying to get higher transaction prices and more retial sales, not sales increases at any cost.

The Enclave has already been priced and it's significantly cheaper than the RX350.

1487

you are right, only 25% of new cars sold are made by GM. No one buys their cars any more. Thanks for reminding us of that "fact". Saturn's sales were up about 60% last month and I would bet most Saturn buyers are under 40. CAre to explain that?

"It's laughable "

The idea that no one looks at GM models these days is indeed laughable.

lemko

My first car was a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe I bought when I was 16. Funny thing is, I just saw two young guys in a Buick Park Avenue yesterday. We have a young guy who just started here a few months ago. He says Buicks are quite popular among young guys in the city. Maybe it's different out in suburbia.

louiswei

Well, how many young people have you seen in a NEW Buick?

lemko

My girlfriend for one. She loves the LaCrosse and would get another one in a New York second. I would like to see her get that Super LaCrosse when the time comes. It would be cool to see Buick come up with a modern interpretation of the Grand National.

louiswei

Lexus: you'd be surprise about how many Lexus you can find on a college campus. At least those around me I can spot several Lexus (mostly IS) most of the time.

Bentley: you won't spot too many Bentley ANYWHERE. Unless you live in Palm Beach of course.

Mercury: Mariners are quiet popular around the campuses.

Chrysler: Old Sebrings, especially the convertible are very popular with the students because 1. they were cheap and 2. they aren't bad looking at all.

Toyota: all over the place.

Honda: all over the place.

Nissan: all over the place.

Chevy: all over the place, especially the pick-ups.

BMW: all over the place.

Acura: probably the second most popular luxury brand after BMW.

Infiniti: If Acura is second then Infiniti is definitely the 3rd, especially with the G35.

The point is...at least Lexus has the IS to attract young"er" buyers, what does Buick have to accomplish that and please don't tell me the LaCrosse. Look, I don't have "problems" with Buick, it's just that I don't see the point for Buick to exist anymore (at least in NA market). Maybe China is a good place for Buick to start its second life...

lemko

...the parking lot was filled with '60s and '70s domestic cars, mostly Chevrolets and Fords. Nobody had a BMW or Mercedes. My roommate's girlfriend had a Toyota Tercel. He had this massive green 1972 Pontiac Catalina.

louiswei

My girlfriend for one.

Okay, that's one. I still have 9 fingers to go...

Look, lemko, I admire your enthusiasm about Buick and I respect that. But the truth is that Buick are not going to do better with the current lineup that they are offering (including the upcoming super). I work in a fairly large sized company (around 130K employee) and our site has 3K. Out of the several parking lots we have so far I have spotted one (1) Buick and it's one of those 90s land yacht type Buick. Oh, by the way, it's in Florida and we have a pretty aging work force.

louiswei

That's great. But living in the 80s or 70s while currently it's the year 2007 isn't going to help Buick a bit.

punkr77

I too wish CR would include either a number or a percent of repairs over/under the average. However, until something better for my needs comes out, I'll continue to use CR as one of many resources in evaluating cars before I purchase.

JD Power however isn't better, at least the often quoted initial quality score which only details faults as a car rolls off the assembly line. While I do want a defect free car off the lot, I also want one that will remain defect free for years to come.

Money magazine did a article on awards given to new cars. Their conclusion was that many of them don't mirror what most of us actually value most in auto's. Here's a link: link title

Consumer reports has always mirrored my ownership experiences, and those of close friends and family, suprisingly closely. Most of the complaints that they come up with in testing ends up being the same stuff I put on my mental "It's a great car except for..." list that I compile on cars I own. The repairs I encounter also mirror CR's projections fairly closely.

I won't walk in and purchase a vehicle based solely on what CR says, but I will take their rankings/tests and reliablity projections into account. Most of the press both automotive (Motor Trend, C&D) and non-automotive (Money, Kiplingers) come to conclusions that are fairly close to CR's tests (although they don't address long term reliability).

I think most (notice I said most) of the people who dislike CR's rankings and ratings fall into one of two categories:

--People who don't share CR's ideals as far as what constitutes a good car. If you don't value fuel economy or handling, then you'll likely come up with very different rankings. None is better than the other, their just different.

--People who are either rabidly loyal to a brand CR doesn't rate well or have a real disdain for a brand that CR does like. (Ex: I think GM builts the best cars->CR doesn't agree->CR is in the pockets of Honda/Toyota, CR's methodology is flawed, CR hates America).

imidazol97

>Money magazine did a article on awards given to new cars. Their conclusion was that many of them don't mirror what most of us actually value most in auto's

Odd, isn't it, that they never mentioned CR... Hmmmmmm.

imidazol97

>Money magazine did a article on awards given to new cars. Their conclusion was that many of them don't mirror what most of us actually value most in auto's

Odd, isn't it, that they never mentioned CR... Hmmmmmm.

>People who are either rabidly loyal to a brand CR doesn't rate wellgood

Your use of "rabidly" mitigates value of points you made. Some people notice CR is not consistent in their application of criteria. But I'm not going to go there. Search old posts by people for the points about that.

sls002

Consumers Reports collects data from their subscibers. They get a pile of data and then try to sift some results out of it. J. D. Powers collects data from a ramdom selection of owners with the intention of comparing manufacturers. There are two basic studies, an initial quality study and a long term (3 year) study. Generally speaking, cars that were near the top in the initial quality survey, are still near the top in the long term survey. The ones on the bottom are still near the bottom in the other.

The point here is that CR does provide some useful information, but I am not sure one can use their results to say that one manufacturer is better than another. Probably a car with all red dots is different than another with all black dots, but one with a mix or hollow dots may be just a good as either of the others.

I think that the J. D. Power ranking of makes and manufacturers is real. I also think that their long term study probably will hold up for 6 years. How well any car does for ten years probably depends more on how the owner abuses it than anything.

sls002

The HO northstar engine does not have a lot more power, but does come with the high performance axle gearing. The axle gearing will make high speed performance better. This is of limited value in the US, but on a European autobahn (not likly) would make a difference. You could of course ship a Buick to Europe...

xrunner2

Odd, isn't it, that they never mentioned CR... Hmmmmmm.

Think that that is forbidden by CR. Doesn't CR say that none of their info can be used in any way by mfrs and other commercial entities?

xrunner2

They also report out their opinions on the vehicles they test.

I find that CR opinions of vehicles they road test are consistent with most other testers such as Edmunds, Car and Driver and other magazines. As example, if CR says a vehicle has bad handling and brakes, many other testers most usually say the same thing.

If some don't trust CR, they have alternatives such as doing the test drive for themselves and then asking new car salespersons and dealer sales managers about the quality and reliability of the vehicle they are interested in.

1487

The IS is the only lexus young people care about. The rest of the lineup is for the AARP crowd and yet no one complains. Old is only bad when talking about american cars. Buick is ONE brand in GM's arsenal and I fail to see why people think Buick needs the same customers as Chevy and Saturn. They do not need to be appealing to those who think Scions and Civic's are cool. They never have been and never will be. That's like saying the Avalon is a failure because its not sought after by 25 year olds. The Avalon is aimed at a certain buyer just like Buicks.

GM could kill Buick but it wouldnt help them at all. What has GM gained from killing Olds? If Buick dies there is no guarantee that it's customers wont go and buy Fords and Toyotas. People keep harping on this "kill Buick" strategy without explaining how that will enhance GM's profitability.

andre1969

Okay, that's one. I still have 9 fingers to go...

Well, my Dad has a 2003 Regal, that he bought when he was 57. Hey, that's young for a Buick buyer!

And actually, at the time it was, as the average age for a Century, LeSabre, or Park Ave buyer back then was around 70, while the Regal averaged a comparatively youthful 57. I think the Rendezvous average buyer age at the time was around 48.

But, my Dad also bought that Regal used, so that's probably not helping GM much, either.

lemko

I don't even see the IS on any young people's radars around here. I'll see about 200 BMW 3-Series to every IS out there. The IS is extremely expensive and very small for what you pay. Heck, any young person would be better off with a WRX or Evo.

midwesttrader

Saturn's sales were up about 60% last month and I would bet most Saturn buyers are under 40. CAre to explain that?

You do realize that 60% you're bragging about is a grand total of 3527 vehicles right? Saturn's February sales were 9391 compared with 5864 last year. The phased-out ION was down 19%, Sky sales were a whopping 829, and the Aura was well under 4k units.

Compared to last year, Saturn's overall sales are down 3%. Under 40 or not, most buyers are going elsewhere.

sls002

In 2006 Saturn sold fewer vehicles than Buick. Saturn probably could have been dumped along with Oldsmobile. But perhaps Saturn's demographics (age) are better.

andre1969

n 2006 Saturn sold fewer vehicles than Buick. Saturn probably could have been dumped along with Oldsmobile. But perhaps Saturn's demographics (age) are better.

Since Saturns are sold at MSRP, maybe GM makes more profit on each Saturn they sell, compared to Buick?

Also, aren't most Saturn dealers these days still stand-alone? That could cause a problem with dumping the brand. Most stand-alone Buick dealers went away years ago, at least in these parts. Usually they're grouped as Pontiac/GMC/Buick, at the very least. We have one dealer here that's Pontiac/GMC/Buick/Cadillac/Hummer/Saab!

I'm guessing it wouldn't really be that hard to phase out Buick if they really wanted to, but Saturn would be more difficult.

louiswei

Well, if there is absolutely no benefit for GM to kill Buick then they shouldn't do it. However, to me, one less brand to worry about could easily cut back cost (operation and manufacturing) in a significant way. My point is, it should be an "alternative" for GM to consider instead of making "kill Buick" sounds like a taboo and keep it hush-hush.

The IS is the only lexus young people care about.

Didn't I say that in the previous post? 1487, we really need to work on this "read-my-whole-post-before-you-reply" thingy. :P

Okay, forget about the college kids, let's be real here, how many 30-year-old have you seen lately whom are driving around in a shining Lucerne or LaCrosse? Like I said, my company consists of many well-paid engineers and none of them are driving Buick now-a-day. AND THIS IS IN FLORIDA!!

xrunner2

GM could kill Buick but it wouldnt help them at all. What has GM gained from killing Olds?

If you look at Olds sales data over 2001-2003 and compare to Buick 2002-2006, and plot on graph, the slopes are pretty close. The Enclave has got to be their salvation. Its had pretty good write-ups, so hopefully it will be.

Maybe for Enclave they should get away from golf type tv ads (if that is what they are going to do) and try to do something younger. Golf won't cut it. Got to get people into showrooms to do test drive. Get people excited, curious and interested when watching a tv commercial, but not goofy like driving a Ford Edge on the top of a skyscraper. Buick showrooms also have to match that of Lexus or Acura in sophistication if Buick wants to play in that league. The combo GM dealer in a town near me that sells Buick seems to hick-like for present or potential Lexus or Acura buyers to want to walk in.

louiswei

I'll see about 200 BMW 3-Series to every IS out there.

Are you kidding me? the 3-series outsells IS 2-to-1 at most (if you only count sedans it's more like 1.5-to-1) and IS is CHEAPER than the 3-series.

Trust me here lemko, any young professionals would much rather opt for IS/3-series than those boy racer WRX/EVO.

sls002

Saturn buyers are probably younger than either Oldsmobile or Buick buyers, so keeping Saturn makes sense. If Cadillac is going to move into Buicks price range (with for example the BLS), then keeping Buick makes less sense. The big issue for GM is how to make the various makes different from one another and still affordable to build. Toyota, with only two distinct brands (Toyota and Lexus), has less problem with product lines. Small low priced Cadillacs would not take too many sales away from a similar priced bigger Buick, but the overlap has to be contained. With Chevy and Pontiacs also overlaping Buicks, as well as Saturns, there is a real problem.

imidazol97

Anyone can talk about how CR is doing things. CR doesn't like when people advertise "CR rates our Avalon as superb in reliability." (They did change their rating in a special small box a few issues later.) I use that example as one of CR's questionable opinions; they rated the Avalon great but then the real car didn't work out. The replacement Malibu a high percentage of parts already in use wasn't rated, because they just didn't know what to expect from it. But the Ridgeline, which used a smaller fraction of parts/systems already in use was going to be reliable.
Ooops.

m1miata

Still seems to me that GM is competing with itself. The Aura vs. Malibu / G6 for example. And the VUE must be competing with other SUVs from GM. Do they really need so many cars, SUVs and trucks? Is a GMC different than a Chevy truck, or an Escalade, for that matter. At the least, combine Pontiac and Buick lines. What were the sales for Aura last month? What is happening to G6 sales, and what is going to happen once New Malibu hits the showroom. It ain't pretty, is my guess.

The $3.50 per gallon gas prices could hit about the same time as the height of the housing crash, and possibly some stock market panic. So what then for the car sales? Summer could get interesting.
Loren

andres3

The Ridgeline was GOING to be reliable for the same reason Mike Tyson was going to win all of his first 30 fights. You could count on it and bet on it.

Betting on the Malibu to be reliable would be like betting on the old, worn out, and past his prime Mike Tyson today against whomever the current Champ is.

m1miata

The current Malibu seems to have some sort of suspension problem. Perhaps that is what gives them pause to recommend. No matter -- new one is on the way, and time tested as a G6 and a few other models.
Loren

62vetteefp

Hee is the 3 year dependibility site data. and it does give data. and you can see not a lot of difference anymore.

1.4 (best) problems vs. the average of 2.3.

62vetteefp

20% of Buick dealers are still independent.

Buick makes more money for GM than Saturn

GM does not really care if cars sell for MSRP or lower (as far as profit per vehicle), the dealer does. GM sells the vehicle to the dealer at a certain price and then the dealer tries to sell for as high as possible.

1487

Most buyers dont buy Toyota either. You can always so "most" buyers are going elswhere regardless of what brand you are talking about. Toyota has about 15% share which means that 85% of Americans don't want to buy a Toyota. I dont think that means Toyota makes crappy cars. Give me a break.

1487

We dont disagree that 30 year olds dont want Buicks. My point is I dont care and Buick doesnt either. Not every brand is appealing to young people. This is just the way the market works and many vehicles that are purchased by 50 somethings are not on the radar of 30 somethings. I dont think the camry is on the radar of many 25 year old bachelors but its doing just fine.

1487

Just to be clear, Saturn sold 22,225 vehicles in Feb. 2007 which is abotu 8k more than they sold in Feb. 2006. I have no clue where you got your figures from. Their sales are up 16% so far this year.

You're right, they arent moving in the right direction.

1487

I fail to see why people act like only GM makes vehicles that potentially compete with one another. Ever heard of the Maxima and Altima? Camry XLE and Avalon? Avalon and ES350? Xterra and Pathfinder? Rav4 and Highlander? Sequoia and Land Cruiser? The list goes on and on. Companies with large lineups make vehicles that could compete for the same buyers. This is nothing new and it has not stopped GM's competitors from expanding their offerings.

The G6's sales have been going up recently. I dont know why you keep suggesting that the Aura is killing the G6.

louiswei

1487, you seriously think that people growing up driving Honda, Nissan, Toyota, VW, Hyundai, MB, Audi and BMW are going to consider Buick when they "made it"? Most of the current Buick owners grew up in the "good ole' days" when domestics are the "bombs". So it is LOGICAL for them to get a Buick since to them it still poses as the "upscale GM brand". However, it will be ILLOGICAL to assume that for the current 20, 30 or even 40-year-olds because they grew up under the "imports invasion" era so Buick will hardly be on their radar screen even when they turn 90.

m1miata

Yes, I am ever so familiar with those autos. They do not compete with other cars within their line.

So G6 is selling in greater volumes? I doubt that. I do believe Pontiac sales are down, as well as, G6.

Loren

m1miata

Does Buick make money in USA?

midwesttrader

The numbers are for Saturn cars only, direct from the GM website. Sorry I didn't specify that. Add in the Outlook, Relay and VUE at 12834 total and you do get a grand total of 22225.

Saturn YTD sales are 35930 compared to 30852 in 2006. That 16% sounds so much better than 5078 vehicles, doesn't it?

m1miata

That is a lot of cars?

louiswei

GM Group:

G6 - FWD mid size
Aura - FWD mid size
Malibu - FWD mid size
LaCrosse - FWD mid size(?)

Total: 4 FWD mid sizer

Toyota Group:

Camry - FWD mid size
Avalon - FWD full size
ES350 - FWD luxury
RAV4 - compact SUV
Highlander - midsize SUV
Sequoia - full size SUV
Land Cruiser - full size SUV (I'll give you this especially when Lexus has the LX470 as well)

Nissan Group:

Altima - FWD mid size
Maxima - FWD full size
Xterra - midsize SUV (off-road)
Pathfinder - midsize SUV (city)

To answer your question. Yes, every manufacture has its own issue of product overlapping but none has it as severe as GM does.