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Comments
So according to your logic cars like the Fit, Mazda 3, Passat etc. are not good cars since they don't sell in high numbers. If all that matters is sales than those cars are lackluster. The general public often is clueless about nameplates that arent well establised and thus those vehicles arent on shopping lists. That fact doesnt mean the vehicles are lacking. The Accord and camry whip the Passat and Mazda 6 in sales but many would argue the VW and Mazda are better cars. Since sales and the "real world" are what matter I guess the F150 is the best vehicle in America.
I will admit I haven't been attracted to Pontiac styling in for a long time. We'll see what one looks like for real once they are over here.
In 1980, Toyota was selling pickups (compact) and a large sedan (the Cressida).
But it took Toyota a decade to get to the point where it would have credibility in the luxury market, and even then it had to launch a whole new division to sell it, because no one would buy a $50,000 Toyota passenger car in 1990.
Saturn doesn't have 10 years; neither does Pontiac. And both are selling (or will sell) these new vehicles under their existing brand names.
1487: Of course you would because until 15-20 years ago Toyota was primarily a seller of small and medium sized four cylinder powered cars.
To use your words, speak for yourself. I would not have underestimated Toyota's potential in 1980.
1487: Your logic is flawed. People will buy good vehicles regardless of what the brand USED to stand for if they like the vehicles enough.
First you type the above sentence...
...and then type this:
The Saturns aren't selling well enough because of lack of marketing and refusal of import drivers to consider anything that isnt Honda, Toyota or Nissan.
Blaming the customer is tired old strategy, employed too often by GM. If GM hasn't given Honda and Toyota owners a reason to switch, then that is GM's fault. The fact that Honda and Toyota customers don't look elsewhere serves as a testament to the ability of those companies to satisfy customers.
After all, you said above, "People will buy good vehicles regardless of what the brand USED to stand for if they like the vehicles enough."
Maybe potential customers don't like the new Saturns enough to buy them. That is how the free market works. If customers don't like a new vehicle, they don't have to buy it. Which is not their fault.
1487: There is no proof that GM cant advertise for all its brands.
Wait...first you say "Saturns aren't selling well enough because of lack of marketing," then you say "There is no proof that GM cant advertise for all its brands."
Maybe the reason for the lack of marketing is that GM can't afford to adequately advertise all of its brands.
1487: Most of them dont tell you much about the car vs the Camry/Accord and I think that's a mistake.
On this we can agree. Note that Ford Fusion sales have increased since the "Fusion Challenge" series of ads began running.
1487: How many class competitive sports sedans costing over $30k does Pontiac offer right now? None last time I checked.
It's not just the lack of competitive product in that category that hampers a new Pontiac. It's the image of the Pontiac nameplate that will hinder its success, because that nameplate has lots of baggage that the Acura, BMW and Audi nameplates don't.
Unfair? Maybe, but that is life. Car companies, like people, must live with the reputations that they have earned.
1487: I personally am not impressed by the badge on your car or anyone else's.
We're not talking about you, we're talking about customers who exist in the real world. Your willingness to look beyond the badge is admirable, but most customers need a compelling reason to do so. GM must deal with the world as it exists, not as you believe it to be.
1487: When I look for a car I am concerned about style, performance and VALUE. Unfortunately (acura excluded) most prestigous brands do not offer value. What they do offer is high monthly payments in exchange for impressing brand snobs.
No. There is a real difference in the driving experience offered by BMWs, Acuras and Audis. Plus, foreign near-luxury cars have never sold on value. They sell on build quality, performance and style. The idea that foreign luxury cars sell to "rich idiots" has been debunked on this site many times.
As I said, the combination of features that buyers seek changes when the sticker is over $30,000, and GM's failure to understand this for too long is part of the company's probems.
To use an analogy, Big Macs primarily sell on value. The taste is decent, but not the best, and you get a lot of it for the price.
Note that upscale restaurants do not sell a version of the Big Mac, and do not compete directly with it. They are selling an entirely different dining experience.
GM cannot use "value" as the basis for the G8's appeal in this class.
1487: Again, see my earlier reference to the 300C to understand why I am dismissing your predictions of failure. Please explain to me how the G8 is different from the 300 which was also deemed to be a big gamble due to it's price.
1. Because the market for rear-wheel-drive luxury cars isn't that big, and the Chrysler 300C (and Charger R/T) have captured a lot of it.
2. The 300 survives because of the lower-cost versions, which are heavily fleeted. There will not be a low-cost G8.
3. Chrysler 300 sales have been slumping as of late, which suggests that the market for this type of vehicle may be satiated. We'll see.
You're right which is probably why the LS was about $35k back then.
You are way off on your facts about the 300 and the G8. The 300C was a huge part of the 300s initital success. People wanted the V8 and chrysler underestimated the demand according to articles I read. The G8 WILL have a low cost model. Again, it would be helpful to know something about the car you are criticizing. The base G8 will have a V6 engine and likely cost around $25k-$26k. I'm sure you think that is too much for a Pontiac though. The 300s sales may be decreasing but that's to be expected a car in it's 4th year and you fail to mention that Charger sales actually increased last year. BTW, I am not a huge fan of either car but facts are facts.
For all your talk about Saturn's failures you arent mentioning their sales are up this year by 20% or so. That is pretty good for any domestic brand. It will take them years to get where they want to go, but a 20% increase is a nice start.
"It's not just the lack of competitive product in that category that hampers a new Pontiac. It's the image of the Pontiac nameplate that will hinder its success, because that nameplate has lots of baggage that the Acura, BMW and Audi nameplates don't. "
You failed to answer my question about what cars pontiac sells right now that are competitive with $30K+ sports sedans. The answer is none. Are you willing to guarantee that Pontiac will have trouble selling 40k cars? Thats really all I want to know. You are giving me a bunch of reasons why you wont like the G8, but you have yet to explain why Pontiac wont sell 40k of them when Chrysler sells over 100k 300s a year.
"We're not talking about you, we're talking about customers who exist in the real world. Your willingness to look beyond the badge is admirable, but most customers need a compelling reason to do so. GM must deal with the world as it exists, not as you believe it to be. "
So this explains why the 300 has been successful after similar predictions of doom? What you are saying is totally contradictory to past precedent. Remember, people like you said the same thing when the CTS came out. There were plenty of skeptics out there and the CTS proved to be successful anyway.
"No. There is a real difference in the driving experience offered by BMWs, Acuras and Audis. Plus, foreign near-luxury cars have never sold on value. They sell on build quality, performance and style. The idea that foreign luxury cars sell to "rich idiots" has been debunked on this site many times. "
Dont know where its been debunked, missed that. Acuras and Audis arent even real sports sedans so I dont see your point. The point of the G8 is that it will offer a real RWD performance package at an affordable price. Audi and Acura do not offer that at any price. German cars in particular are all about presitige as opposed to value. This is why they charge you $600 for heated seats when they are included standard on cars costing under 25 grand. Give me a break.
"As I said, the combination of features that buyers seek changes when the sticker is over $30,000, and GM's failure to understand this for too long is part of the company's probems. "
Is that why the CTS has done well since it's introduction? BTW, GM sell a while lot of vehicles over $30k, but many of them are trucks and SUVs.
"GM cannot use "value" as the basis for the G8's appeal in this class."
Chrysler did and it paid off for them. The press was very enthused about the 300Cs bang for the buck and thats one reason it won so many awards. Again, what precedent are you using for your assertions? The 300 and CTS pretty much disprove EVERYTHING you are saying. But dont let that stop you.
And the A4 Audi is overpriced.
The CTS base model is too base. No reason to start out from day one with a too basic car. Sorry, but those are the facts. From the cheaper looking interior, lack of telescopic steering, to the lack of stability control as standard, it was simply too stripped a model. A Cadillac without lumbar control seats? Think about it. The Hyundai Sonata is better equipped than is the Cadillac CTS. A true Cadillac, even as old as 2003, if that is old, should have had all the safety and comfort items as standard.
So now we have the new and improved base model some five years later. This good - late but a good thing.
Loren
Okay, so people weren't prepared to pay $35,000 for a Toyota sedan in 1990, so Toyota had to create a new division and sell it as a Lexus. My point still stands.
1487: You are way off on your facts about the 300 and the G8. The 300C was a huge part of the 300s initital success.
And heavy fleet sales of the base version were what kept up demand for the 300 as a whole.
1487: The G8 WILL have a low cost model. Again, it would be helpful to know something about the car you are criticizing. The base G8 will have a V6 engine and likely cost around $25k-$26k. I'm sure you think that is too much for a Pontiac though.
That's good to know. Depending on what it offers at $25,000, the car could be a success.
1487: For all your talk about Saturn's failures you arent mentioning their sales are up this year by 20% or so. That is pretty good for any domestic brand. It will take them years to get where they want to go, but a 20% increase is a nice start.
Considering that there was a gap between the end of the L-Series and the debut of the Aura, and the Outlook is an entirely new entry, I'm not surprised that Saturn's sales have increased.
It's easy to increase sales by adding models.
1487: You failed to answer my question about what cars pontiac sells right now that are competitive with $30K+ sports sedans. The answer is none.
And you failed to answer my concerns about Pontiac's image, the elephant in the room. What about Pontiac's image? It isn't the greatest in the real world, and image matters in this class. That is more important than the lack of any competitive product in this category.
1487: Are you willing to guarantee that Pontiac will have trouble selling 40k cars? Thats really all I want to know. You are giving me a bunch of reasons why you wont like the G8, but you have yet to explain why Pontiac wont sell 40k of them when Chrysler sells over 100k 300s a year.
I have not expressed my like - or dislike - of the G8. I've just given my reasons for why it faces an uphill battle for acceptance in the over-$30,000 class.
1487: So this explains why the 300 has been successful after similar predictions of doom? What you are saying is totally contradictory to past precedent. Remember, people like you said the same thing when the CTS came out. There were plenty of skeptics out there and the CTS proved to be successful anyway.
First, I never expressed any opinion regarding the CTS to you, so don't group me with anyone else. And most of the reasons I saw for concern over the CTS's prospects for success centered on its controversial styling and Cadillac's past failures (Cimarron, Catera) in this segment.
1487: Dont know where its been debunked, missed that.
Read some of the threads discussing Cadillacs, Mercedes or luxury cars in general. You'll find it there. People who actually sell these vehicles to real, live customers will set you straight.
1487: Acuras and Audis arent even real sports sedans so I dont see your point.
LOL...why? Because you said so? Because they are front wheel drive? You're not doing much for your credibility here with statements like that.
1487: The point of the G8 is that it will offer a real RWD performance package at an affordable price. Audi and Acura do not offer that at any price.
Sport sedans can be driven by the front wheels in this segment. Many buyers in this segment prefer a rear-wheel-drive layout, this is true, but that does automatically mean that all front-wheel-drive cars are not sports sedans.
It's the $50,000 and up class, where the appeal is more pure luxury, that the driving wheels need to be in the rear.
1487: German cars in particular are all about presitige as opposed to value.
I said that German cars do not sell on value. They sell on engineering prowess, flawless assembly (which is NOT the same thing as reliability) and high-speed capabilities (the born-on-the-Autobahn heritage). That is what gives them their prestige, and, for those who can stomach the repair bills, makes them the leaders. The image of prestige is backed up by real capabilities.
1487: Is that why the CTS has done well since it's introduction? BTW, GM sell a while lot of vehicles over $30k, but many of them are trucks and SUVs.
The CTS does not sell on value...it offers a European approach to ride and handling, combined with a very distinctive style, to those who prefer to buy a domestic vehicle.
And trucks and SUVs are a whole different ballgame.
1487: Chrysler did and it paid off for them. The press was very enthused about the 300Cs bang for the buck and thats one reason it won so many awards.
Chrysler used a very distinctive style, a rear-wheel-drive layout and the available HEMI to sell the cars. It was not about "value."
Hooray for Honda!
Also, there is nothing unusable about the Honda's 7K redline!
What will be truly impressive is the look on all those "I just bought a....." faces when all they see is the G-8's taillights, and can't keep up.
remote start
sunroof *
leather steer whl wrap *
dual zone climate control *
16" painted alloy wheels
power seat *
power windows *
steer wheel climate controls *
content theft alarm system *
Driver info center
On star (probably more useful than stability control)
100k mi warranty on powertrain
6 year warranty on rust
unobtrusive trunk hinges
The Honda link does not show alloy wheels standard on the Accord SE and their list was exhaustive down to the manually adjusted seats.
What would typical buyer get more use out of, 0-60 in .5 less seconds, or a quieter, roomier, smoother riding, more efficient car with 15% more trunk space and 10 more significant features for the same price?
As for Saturn, consider that they languished for a decade and let most of their customer base disappear - it will take time for them to get a fresh customer base to provide repeat business. With the all-new line-up, it WILL happen, I have no doubt. Saturn is here to stay for the next decade, IMO.
And GM should be much more concerned with overall profits, especially per-unit profits, than they are with overall sales right now. Which apparently they are, as they weed out those pesky fleet sales and come up with niche models like G8, designed to sell in small quantities and with good profitability. If they continue on the course they have stayed now for almost two years, they will be far and away the number one American automaker in ten years. In fact, as disappointing as it is to say, by 2020 they may be the ONLY truly American automaker left.
Oh, and BTW, hehehe, Dave, I dunno about your rapid-fire repeated assertion that stability control isn't useful or as desirable as many other optional features - it has just been mandated by the Congress for ALL VEHICLES for MY 2010 or something like that (trucks in 2012). Most of the safety-oriented buyers want it along with the whole boatload of airbags and electronic nannies.
And someone above said the Euro-Accord is the TL, when in fact it is the TSX in the U.S. Honda does make a version of the TL for the home market (what's it called, the Inspire or something), but doesn;t sell one in Europe I don't think.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/23/nearly-half-of-chryslers-products-go-to-fleet- s-pontiac-isnt-d/
44.9% of Pontiacs sold to fleets between September '06 and this February, will not be allowed to continue. I assume this is due in large part to Grand Prix sales being mostly to the fleets, but also I guess not too many people wanted a G5, eh? And G6 sales are more fleet-heavy than is optimal too.
With the Grand Prix gone this fall and the new Malibu arriving, the last of the old school GM is mostly gone (except for DTS, and LaCrosse is climbing the fleet charts way too much for a company that professes to want to limit fleet sales at all costs), and with it they should make sure to send the old fleet sales packing.
At the very least, I don't expect future GM midsize sedans to suffer the humiliating fate of the "all new" Sebring, rental queen that it has always been and still is.
(Sidenote: it appears we have the answer to an oft-asked question from last year: with GM and Ford limiting fleet sales, who will sell the rental companies their cars and vans? Answer: Chrysler will, they will pick up all those lost fleet sales with alacrity. Wow, 2 out of every 5 Chryslers sold in those six months were to rental companies, not just fleets, but actually RENTAL companies).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Here is the line by line, since you listed it ( with errors )
Remote start: The SE doesn't have it, though I find it not too difficult to use my key once inside the car.
Steering Wheel: Not leather - works fine.
Dual climate zones: If the other person riding along doesn't like the temperature, they can walk :surprise:
16" wheels: No, it has 17" alloy with quality Michelin tires.
Power seat: Yes, my arm jacks up the seat to desired level which not only works fine, but weighs less and has no electrical parts. How often do you adjust the height?
Power Windows: Yeap, I got them too
Steering wheel climate controls: Nope it doesn't have that on the SEV6. It does have radio controls and cruise controls on the steering wheel however. Guess they ran out of space for more stuff.
Content theft alarm system: I do have a shotgun :P and the car has the standard horn alarm. Guess I could add a Doberman.
Driver info. center: It has oil life and trip meter. Nothing else, I guess. Service and other alerts will appear however.
On star: Nope, they prefer to give people accident avoidance, as in the Stability Control, a proven safety device. I do have a cell phone in the car. Will now consider adding a rabbits foot, considering the danger of not having Onstar. Does that work by satellite? No where does it say it works in every area.
100K warranty: Well let's see, if I five years @ 15K per year, that is more like a 75K warranty. But, I may be driving more than that. So advantage GM by 15K miles or more on the warranty. Trust me, you will want to have that.
6 year warranty on rust: I don't know what Honda warranty states on that. Only car I ever owned that rusted was the Olds Starfire, so it is a non-issue. I assume Honda warrants against rust.
Unobtrusive trunk hinges: Got me on that one. Honda uses the old style hinges. That's it, gotta trade her in now.
Not worried about trunk space at all. Not going to carry any dead bodies or anything too large in there. Seems pretty large to me. Guess I could get on old Lincoln Town Car.
So how about some double-wishbone suspension for that buick? Where is that hand brake for the emergency brake?
Ever look at the backlit instrument panel on the Honda?
Loren
Loren
Due to the cost of massive launches, I suppose we shall never see the big day new car surprise celebrations which included many new cars coming to market, or at the least many new looking designs showing all on the same day. Would it not be cool to have all new Chevy, Saturns, and say Cadillacs being displayed in a showroom, like the good ol' days, instead of one car as new drifting in ever so many months along life's road. If they could at least launch three new cars, like the Malibu, Camaro and Impala on the same day, what a big splash and massive offensive battle move that would be. More really new cars, less models - updated more often, would be something positive IMHO.
Loren
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2008-saturn-astra-1/153913/
tc/no
Autoblog.com... Chicago autoshow Astra, 07(just in case the info gets lost some how when I post the link, again. May be my 'puter?).
Looks good in Blue.
tc/no
I happen to think remote start is a bad idea -- wastes gas for one thing. Oh, the agony of stepping into a hot or cold car! Are we that wussy now? (There's always "max a/c" to quickly cool you off, and something called a coat and gloves to keep you warm!)
On trunk gooseneck hinges vs. struts: one thing I've noticed is that strut-equipped cars from all manufacturers seem to have bigger "sills" all around the trunk opening, which means the effective size of the opening is smaller. For me, I'd rather have a larger opening to get things inside more easily. You just have to pack things so they don't contact the goosenecks when closing the lid.
The VW Phateon was by most accounts an excellent car. But people couldn't get over a high end VW. Silly perhaps, but true.
Well, the A4 has in the past lost to the BMW 3-series (which I assume nobody will argue is NOT a sports sedan) in a Car and Driver comparison by only one point. I'd also call the TSX a sports sedan. Are we getting into that silly rear vs. front wheel drive issue? Of course my A4 was Quattro!
By your definition, if the A4 and TSX are not sports sedans, what is?
I like the handling of my FWD car. I have the Accord. Also test drove others like the Aura and the Fusion, and found those cars to handle well. That said, I do like RWD. If someone gave me a Corvette or Porsche, I wouldn't turn them down.
Don't know a thing about the G8 / Holden. Is it smaller and lighter than the GTO?
So you have the Quattro Audi A4. Now that would be a great handling car. Heck, it would handle the off pavement driving too. Fun, if not crazy, those races on the dirt roads. That fun comes at a price. I see the 6 cyl. is pretty expensive. Four or six, they are really sports sedans.
Will be interesting to see a car review of the New CTS vs. the BMW3 car. The current CTS is entertaining to drive. It is not a BMW, but then again, it doesn't have to be. It has its own feel and attributes to set it apart. It doesn't really have to win the track contest, but the closer it comes the better for acceptance by the press - magazines. Good press isn't a bad thing.
Loren
I drive 25-30k mi a year so I will get the 100k mi warranty use and in the last 3 years, 90k mi, I haven't needed stability control once. I managed to miss a deer by 6 inches at 45 mph one morning with plain old skidding straight. If I had my faster car I would have been doing 60 and hit it. I turn off my traction control almost every day, especially in the winter. You forgot to say why the sunroof is a bad idea, and the power windows are not listed as std on the SE.
Rocky
The SE comes with electric windows, though I may add roll up windows are nice to have in some cases. If you hit the auto door looks open twice to open all doors, then hold the button down, all the windows roll down. Ah, this is their vent system for hot days. I am saved!
I too have driven a long time, as in 38 years without stability control and with zero accidents. Doesn't mean I can count on tomorrow not using the device. Accidents are not really predictable, or you could simply avoid each one. You do know this will be standard on cars by law soon, so having the device can only add to the value of a car.
0-60 in 6.6 seconds is a good little kick, and the sound of the Honda engine is sweet. It is not illegal at all to drive 65 and they cut you slack to 75 MPH, most of the time. So 0-60 can NOT possibly be illegal. And I leave the traction control on, so no, it is most likely not as fast as 6.6 sec. Less wheel spin and will save the tires.
If you drive 25K + miles per year, a good used car from GM may be the way to go. And a second car just for pleasure. You are really burning up the resale value there.
I saw the Monte Carlo locally here for about $16K with like 8K miles on it or 18K, I think it was. It was a rental return and only one model year old. It would have plenty of warranty left. Strickly talking warranty, Hyundai is the best.
I am thinking, if living in snow country, a Subaru comes to mind.
What car do you drive?
Loren
Very good in Blue. Wish they were out now. Really would like a test drive.
The old Storm was fast, fun, and not bad( a lot of people do not care for it's looks, these days, when I mention it, but the one we tested was great...we were burned on our Isuzu-built 1987 "Chevy" Spectrum,so we did not get the Storm).
Hoping this brings more of the same type of fun, decent MPG, prices, etc...but updated(and way better built, in general).Rumors have a sedan on the way(?)...next year?
For us, 3 doors = more versatility to haul stuff( only need room for 2 people , for us). If the 167..3 inches total length is true, a tiny bit short for me, but...
I drove a Spectrum, and then a Sentra( about similar length, nearly 14 feet, also) for years, up to 1999.
I wish they were more up front , though, with the exact launch date, or at least a given month, vs saying"Fall",or late 4th qtr, or whatever.
tc/no.
You do not use "max a/c" to cool a car off quickly. You turn on regular A/C to the max for about 3-5 minutes to blow out the hot air and then switch to "Max A/C" to wick the moisture out of your ride. I am one of those who wishes he had remote start like GM, has where I can turn on my defoggers, switch on my ventialted seats, start the car, etc, via keyless remote :P
Rocky
Wonder what MPG is on this(have not heard yet)?
Should be what, 32-34MPG, at least(automatic)?
yes... that would be interesting!
Anything that is sporty designed,handling, and gets 40-50MPG, that is really interesting!
That is one way to get people to take (even more) notice of your product, especially these past few years, of $2.50-3.50 per gallon!
Have a good one.
tc/no
would be interesting to see how good of fuel economy a Astra, would get ? Also would be interesting to see what a 2-mode version would give us ?
Rocky
Here's a better Buick you can own right now
http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070424/FREE/70424001/1004
great article pal !
Rocky
The same thing could be said when comparing any loaded midsize car to a entry level luxury car. A loaded Azera has more features than a base CTS, 325, A4, G35, etc. This is nothing new. If you want value you are better off not buying a luxury car. The CTS does lack equipment in base form but so do many other luxury cars. Acura is the only one that gives you loaded cars standard.
I mistakenly assumed you actually knew something about the G8 since you had so much criticism of the car. The V6 engine was announced from the very beginning. Equipment levels are mostly known as well. Read the press release or go to Pontiac's website. The base model has quite a bit of standard equipment. Like I said (numerous times) they only need to sell 40k of them. That wont be hard.
"It's easy to increase sales by adding models. "
Thats exactly what I like to tell people who are constantly bragging about Toyota's sales gains. More models will ususally result in more sales and Toyota has been expanding its lineup in the US for the last 10 years or more.
"And you failed to answer my concerns about Pontiac's image, the elephant in the room. What about Pontiac's image? It isn't the greatest in the real world, and image matters in this class."
See sales of 300C and Charger RT for my response. All the stuff you are saying was said in 2004 when people said "who will pay more than $30k for a crappy Chrysler?". I dont know how else to address your concern. If you dont like the G8 dont buy it. I suppose you also thought the vette wouldnt be successful since its a Chevy that can cost $70k. YOu continue to complain about the G8's price when we dont even know its price. I suspect that FULLY LOADED the G8 will be around $34k or so. As you know, that is where many cars in this class are just getting started. A loaded C class with far less power will run you into the upper $40k range. YOu need to keep equipment levels in mind when calling the G8 overpriced. Sure we can say a G8 will cost as much as a BMW or MB, but once you factor in power, size and equipment the G8 will be a far better value.
"LOL...why? Because you said so? Because they are front wheel drive? You're not doing much for your credibility here with statements like that. "
This is common knowledge. Audis are FWD/AWD and front heavy and Acuras are FWD except for the RL. The weight distribution in these cars cannot match RWD models from BMW and Cadillac. Audis and Acuras are more competent than Toyotas but any enthusiast magazine will confirm they are a step below the RWD sports sedans they compete against. You cannot honestly tell me you have never heard this before. I assure you Cadillac's RWD cars are every bit as capable as front heavy Audi or Acura models. It is laughable that you believe that Cadillacs RWD cars are lacking compared to FWD Accord-based Acura sedans.
"Many buyers in this segment prefer a rear-wheel-drive layout, this is true, but that does automatically mean that all front-wheel-drive cars are not sports sedans. "
MOST buyers in this segment want RWD cars. Lexus, Cadillac, MB and BMW make RWD sports sedans in this class. Acura is the ONLY one that is making FWD luxury sports sedans. When Cadillac was using FWD import fans blasted them constantly for not making a proper RWD platform. Now that they are RWD and Acura still is not you are telling me FWD is acceptable for luxury sports sedans. If you can name another FWD only entry lux sports sedan let me know. FWD is the main reason why media and GM bashing types like yourself have said Pontiacs cannot compete. How ironic that since Pontiac is going RWD and Acura isnt the tables have turned and now FWD is being excused. If FWD isnt a liability in this price range than the Grand Prix GXP is a legit sports sedan.
"They sell on engineering prowess, flawless assembly (which is NOT the same thing as reliability) and high-speed capabilities (the born-on-the-Autobahn heritage)."
I can get flawless build quality and high speed stability in a Hyundai these days. Those qualities are hardly exclusive to expensive German cars. You sound like a BMW press release or something.
"The CTS does not sell on value...it offers a European approach to ride and handling, combined with a very distinctive style, to those who prefer to buy a domestic vehicle. "
Or perhaps some people just thought the CTS was the best car for them. I always love it when self righteous import fans suggest that anyone who buys an American car must be doing so because they are patriotic idiots who are too stubborn to consider a superior foreign car. So you are telling me people who bought the CTS only did so because it was one of the few domestic luxury cars available and NOT because the car was competent in its own right.
"It was not about "value." "
Look at what the 300C offers for $33-$38K and then tell me value had nothing to do with its success. Your statements are totally at odds with everything that has been said about the 300. The media loved the car because it offered size, style, power and luxury for well under $40k. There arent a lot of of full sized, V8 powered sedans on the market with luxury features like nav, HIDs, memory, power tilt wheel, rain sensing wipers, high end audio, etc. for under $40k. The 300C is a great value compared to foreign and domestic luxury cars. It makes the STS, M, 5 series, etc. look like rip offs. Same can be said for the SRT-8 model.
You didnt mention the Accord has a one piece fold down seat instead of a 60/40 split like the Lacrosse and every other modern midsize car.
What is silly is ignoring the price point of the Phaeton. The Phaeton was tens of thousands more expensive than the next cheapest VW car. That was a big mistake. I fail to see how the G8 is in the same boat when the Grand Prix cost up to $33k right now. The G8 will likely be a few grand more fully loaded.
I am baffled by all of this worship for the TSX. It is a decent handling FWD car but it's performance numbers are hardly earth shattering. I think the TSX has been praised for steering feel and shifter quality, two things that are very subjective. When it comes to acceleration, braking and cornering the TSX is about average.
Remote start is a handy feature for those of us who live in areas with four seasons. In CA I'm sure its not a big deal since its always 65-85 degrees out there. remote start is handy and it is only being dismissed because its not offered on Hondas. In case you didnt know Toyota and other manufacturers do offer this feature as a dealer installed option. To call people "wussy" because they like remote start makes no sense. We dont need heated seats, power seats, pwr windows, navigation, telecoping steering wheels or keyless entry and yet Honda sees fit to offer these thins on the Accord. I see you dont think any of HOnda's features are overkill or signs that Honda owners are "wussy" but a GM feature like RS is just totally unecessary.
Rocky
Besides, different features are important to different people. I much prefer the center hand brake. I actually have 3 different parking brakes in my 3 cars -- center hand in my '04 Camry, pedal type in my '05, and the old-school "umbrella handle" on the dash of my '98 Frontier (just like a '55 Chevy). (So I'm often reaching for a "phantom" brake release when I switch vehicles!
Take the sunroof as another example -- I love it, and keep the sunshade open ALL the time on my '04 Camry. And I open the glass in nice weather. But others don't like the extra glare, including my wife. For tall people, they do cut down on headroom.
I would say that remote start is advantageous only if there's a thick coating of frost on the windows -- other than that it's a comfort thing. And I'm aware of its availability at the dealer level for many cars. BTW, we do have 4 seasons in VA.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
:surprise: :confuse: :sick:
Wishbones handle better than Macpherson struts. Someone needs to go to Autozine techincal school.
It's bigger and heavier than a GTO. The car we're getting as the G8 (VE Commodore) is the successor to the four-door version (VZ Commodore) of the car we got as the GTO (VZ Monaro).
Double wishbone suspensions are capable of providing superior handling to struts but there are many other factors involved. The Accord doesn use struts but its shocking damping, wheel size and tires are not tuned for sportiness and thus the Accord puts up average handling numbers. BMWs use struts and handle just fine. So do Porsches. Does autozine tech school tell you all that?
Lets keep in mind that I am not the only one who has made an issue out of using gooseneck hinges. This criticism has been leveled against domestic cars in years past. In fact, this is a feature that was considered par for the course many years ago and yet the new camry and Altima still dont have struts. This is yet another case of dismissind a shortcoming of import cars. Just like Loren goes on and on about how a telescoping wheel should be standard on cars like the Impala I feel struts for the hood and trunk should be standard on any car costing over $20k. Just like GM could add a telescoping wheel for $50 per car Honda could rid the Accord of the primitive hinge design for $50 per car.
I think my 04/05 Camrys have the best compromise -- covered goosenecks -- so you can't crush your cargo because the covers are stationary as you open/close the trunk.
Okay, I'm done till evening; I do have a day job!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/3997177a21495.html
Rocky
Rocky