General Motors discussions

sls002

There is more than one cause of global warming. Vehicles are not a major use of carbon based fuel either, and it is the total use of fossil fuels that add CO2 to the atmosphere. CO2 has increased about 20% in the last century. Most of the change has taken place in the last half century, not the first half. Global warming may be better than a global ice age.

andre1969

with regards to pollution is that, supposedly in the United States, cars and trucks produce about 20% of it. However, I don't know how old that figure is, where it came from, or whether it accounts for all pollutants or just CO2.

m1miata

3P People (those working for the customer + those whom are the customers), Product (cars which are desirable for the area in-which it is sold), Profit (bottom line for continuing the first two P's) That's the focus.

If Toyota or VW screws up and gives up market share, or there is some other windfalls along life's journey, all the better. If a Buick is a Rolls Royce in China, that's a good thing, no doubt. Focus on the Buick, and on the customer, and not on what Toyota is doing.
Loren

62vetteefp

CO2 has increased about 20% in the last century.

PLEASE, a data source! I have never found any credible data that is backed up.

Perhaps the CO2 is going up because we cut down all the trees and jungles.

andre1969

Perhaps the CO2 is going up because we cut down all the trees and jungles.

I always thought that was a big part of it. Plus, the bulk of the Earth's land is in the northern hemisphere, so when we go into the winter cycle and plant life shuts down, the southern hemisphere in its summer cycle just can't absorb the same amount of CO2 that the northern does. Even WITH the rainforests, which are being depleted at an alarming rate.

I've seen graphs and charts on tv that show the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere spiking when the northern hemisphere is in its winter cycle, and dropping in the summer cycle, so there may be something to it.

bumpy

The Astra is holding up well, but the increase seems to be from sales of Chevy-badged GMDAT cars, while the Opel Vectra took a header recently.

sls002

there is a graph in this document that is in a number of text books on climate. I have taken a graduate level course in climatology...
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

sls002

the jiggles in the first graph in the link above are the northern hemisphere winter effect. There is more land in the northern hemisphere...

lokki

As an educated man, I am very reluctant to quickly skim an article intended for graduate level students, in a field which I have never studied, and draw any conclusions.

Having said that, I'm an AMERICAN, thank you, and I was raised on sound bites, so here's an (ahem,byte bite?)extract with the money quote:

Not only has the global warming hypothesis failed the experimental test; it is theoretically flawed as well. It can reasonably be argued that cooling from negative physical and biological feedbacks to GHGs will nullify the initial temperature rise (26, 30).
The reasons for this failure of the computer climate models are subjects of scientific debate. For example, water vapor is the largest contributor to the overall greenhouse effect (31). It has been suggested that the computer climate models treat feedbacks related to water vapor incorrectly (27, 32).

The global warming hypothesis is not based upon the radiative properties of the GHGs themselves. It is based entirely upon a small initial increase in temperature caused by GHGs and a large theoretical amplification of that temperature change. Any comparable temperature increase from another cause would produce the same outcome from the calculations.

At present, science does not have comprehensive quantitative knowledge about the Earth's atmosphere. Very few of the relevant parameters are known with enough rigor to permit reliable theoretical calculations. Each hypothesis must be judged by empirical results. The global warming hypothesis has been thoroughly evaluated. It does not agree with the data and is, therefore, not validated.

I feel very cool now, :shades:

sls002

I posted the link because the first graph shows the increase of atmospheric CO2. I did not bother to read the gist of the article. News reports have stated that the average global temperature is higher than ever, although I do wonder how that is measured now, and how it was measured long ago for comparison.

As one who spent 30 years simulating (numerical model) cumulus clouds, I am aware of how difficult building a numerical model to simulate the climate is. Clouds reflect incoming short wave (sun) radiation, as well as trap long wave radiation. Clouds are a variable feedback from the water vapor....

altest

I guess it's mainly Saturn that's on offensive. Aura, Sky, Outlook, ...

I don't see eough reasons to believe Chevy, Pontiac or Buick is on the offensive. Well, Buick got a rebadged Outlook besides bloated sedans. Pontiac got a rebadged Sky. Cobalt, Malibu, Equinox, Impala are still not earning praises from Edmund's editors. And, GM has been completely beaten by the imports in the minivan segment. Only bright spot in the Chevy line-up is bigger vehicles (Tahoe, Silverado) --- but Chevy was always ahead of Japanese in the segments comprising bigger vehicles, and this does not indicate any change.

lokki

I think that it's fair to say that GM is targeting its divisions one by one and focusing ALL the development money on that one line at any given moment.

Really, I think the SUV's and trucks were done first. Then Caddy got their turn, Now Saturn is the darling.

I think that this is a smart approach, much better than throwing a little money and engineer power at everything at once. The SUV's and trucks were first because that was/IS GM's bread and butter. Then Caddy as it has the most halo effect for GM in general.

The choice of Saturn next is interesting. Does it suggest that Saturn is the best hope for the future? GM has a lot more control over the dealers than for the other lines.

Who is next to get the brain trust workout? Buick or Pontiac or Chevy??????

62vetteefp

Does it suggest that Saturn is the best hope for the future?

Saturn, per the data, does not steal sales from other GM vehicles. Almost all new Saturn volume comes out of the foreign competitors. So I believe that there is volume to be had there. issue is there are way to few Saturn dealers. They should offer the Buick dealers a Saturn dealership to drop the Buick Franchise.

I see a slew of new vehicles coming out of all divisions. The "niche" divisions will be losing models.

Buick will have a new Enclave/Eps 2 LaCrosse/RWD larger sedan. (down from 5/6)

Chevy will have the new malibu/RWD Impala (not losing any models)

Pontiac will have the new G6 (FWD or RWD?), RWD G8. A new G5 may be coming.

These are the new vehicles in the next 2-3 years.

1487

i'm not sure why you are telling this but thanks for the advice I guess. I didn't know I said GM should focus on Toyota and not the customer. Interestingly enough many folks think GM does not acknowledge Toyota's rising presence and should make that their #1 focus.

1487

I think you should become a little more familiar with GM's lineup before making generalizations. If you think the G6 is a Malibu rebadge then you must say the same about the ES350 and Camry. Vehicles can share a plaform without being rebadges. The Equinox and Torrent are rebadges. The Enclave and Outlook are not rebadge jobs. The interiors are 75% different and I dont think they share any exterior panels except MAYBE the doors. When the Enclave has different styling inside and out and more features it's hard to call it a Saturn with a Buick emblem on the grille.

"Cobalt, Malibu, Equinox, Impala are still not earning praises from Edmund's editors."

Well if Edmunds editors dont praise them they must be terrible. I dont think there is one Chevy (OK, maybe Tahoe/Silverado) that edmunds would recommend and yet Chevy is the best selling brand in the US. The Impala was the 3rd best selling car last year in spite of the fact that the media has a lukewarm reaction to the car. edmunds hasnt ever been too crazy about GM products and for the most part that hasnt changed. They wouldn't even give the Cobalt SS s/c it's due and focused on it's spoiler more than it's performance credentials. They arent even that crazy about the new GM SUVs. edmunds attitude towards GM trucks and SUVs is like "we dont understand the point of buying a heavy, hard to park, arhaic gas guzzler that weighs 3 tons when there are many superior import crossovers available but if you insist on having one the Tahoe is as good a choice as any".

altest

Yes, I saw photos of RWD G8. Looks good. I hope GM will equip it nicely for a price below $30K. Anything more than $30K will not sell well without rebates. Also, GM needs to keep it exclusive (no rebadging, no fleet sales). G8 can help Pontiac the way 300 helped Chrysler. If GM can add a RWD G6, then Pontiac will definitely stand out. Currently, Pontiac is dangerously similar to Chevy/ Buick/ Saturn even though it is supposed to be a performance division.

altest

Agreed. Cobalt --- I drove a rental one, and found it to be nice. In fact, a lot nicer than Cavalier. My advice for GM --- just make it a bit "cool". People like me, i.e. people with kids, buy bigger car. Cobalt is for younger people. So, why not change the looks to make it seem "younger"?

montzter

"you have to have some understanding of the realities of the industry to engage in real debate about these issues."

Funny, but I was thinking the exact same thing!!!

1487

You can rest assured the G8 will cost over $30k with options. I suspect the base price will be around $26k or so. People said the same thing about the 300 when it came out and yet the 300C has done very well. remember, it's base price is over $32k.

1487

"Funny, but I was thinking the exact same thing!!! "

About whom? what have I stated that suggests I'm not familiar with the auto industry? I dont think disagreeing with you makes one ignorant about the industry. I suppose it's your way or the highway. So if I were to leave a bunch of baseless posts talking about how bad GM is now and always has been I suppose I could be an expert on par with yourself. It's interesting how on these forums only those who bash GM (or other domestic brands) are deemed "objective", "realistic" or "knowledgable". The general thinking is that if you believe anything other than Toyota and Honda are perfect and every domestic car stinks you are somehow misinformed and biased.

xrunner2

Other than that, the only complaints you can make are about the air cooled engine (lack of heat), and those complaints can be made about same era VW's and Porches

Knew some people that had various years' Corvairs and one big problem was that engine would throw belts often. One had to be handy to fix this on the road if on a trip.

Kirstie_H

This isn't a discussion about which members are more or less credible than other members. Let's knock off the snide and overt comments about others, please!

xrunner2

I do not want to get into global warming here BUT I believe that it is happening. In fact all the planets in our solar system are warming. The question is are we helping it along?

Sun spot and other sun activity causing warming perhaps? Also, heard a theory that solar system fluctuates up and down relative to plane of Milky Way. Another accompanying theory is that there are strong forces continuously generated across the plane from a massive black hole in center of galaxy. Each time Solar System crosses the plane (every tens of millions of years) bad stuff happens on earth. There is further speculation that we are nearing that event within 10 years. So, GM may be left off the hook.

xrunner2

Now, the 1980 Seville, with the Eldorado front end coupled with the swoopy rear end, was not quite right looking. It was an awkward mess.

That's the car I meant. I was off by one year. The front was boxy and upward and the rear was swoopy. There were at least two committees that styled that car and they did not talk to each other.

sls002

I think what they did was to use the Eldorado front end, which looked good on the Eldorado, but then made the back end different. They probably saved money by having front half share with the Eldorado.

andre1969

the '79-85 Eldorado and the '80-85 Seville actually use a different front-end clip! They look similar because the cars are about the same size. However, the Eldorado's fenders have blades running across the tops, whereas the Seville's are flush with the hood. The Seville is also more flat-faced, whereas the Eldorado's fenders extend out beyond the headlights, giving them a more inset look. The front bumpers are different as well. The hood may be the same though; I can't tell from the pics.

It's also hard to tell, but the windshield on the Seville may also be shared with the E-body coupes (Eldo/Toro/Riv). It has a more rakish, low-slung look than the typical sedan of the era.

I actually like the style of these things, but I know I'm in the minority. I wouldn't mind having an '80, with the Caddy 368. The '81's had the V-8-6-4, while the '82-85 were stuck with a 125 hp 4.1 V-8 that tried to match 125 hp against two tons of heft, not a winning combination. One thing I like about them is the fact that they gave them fairly big tires, and the wide track helped give the car a nice, stable stance. Kudos for GM for not trying to shove 14" wheels on these things. I'm sure the thought crossed their mind though, in a penny-pinching moment!

I also think the rakish windshield and frameless door windows help give the thing a customized look. The bustleback thing is odd, but all things considered I think they worked it into the design pretty well. Hell, it looks better than those fat, clunky Jaguars that the rear was trying to ape!

Actually, stylist Bill Mitchell, when accused of ripping off the Jag, made a comment along the lines of "Jag?! hell, I ripped off Rolls Royce!! If you're going to rob a bank, go for Fort Knox and not a kid's piggy bank!"

m1miata

And of course, they would be wrong. GM fixations in the past with a competitors line of cars lead them astray, and it will happen again. Just trying to help here.
:shades: Loren

dave8697

GM fixation on competitor? That takes hi-level inside info to know this. Sounds like a generalization, not based in fact.

Every auto manufacturer has competitive analysis experts spread throughout their engineering organizations. They sell each other components as well. My chev truck has a Nippondenso a/c compressor. Honda bought all the Delphi alternators they could get and even told Delphi to raise the price to them. Everybody is reverse engineering everybody elses's everything every year. That activity is not leading anyone astray, it's a necessary side of the business.

And what about the 7 or 8 GM models that won awards this year from independent magazines and analysts? Hard to believe that could happen from the typical buzz on here.

m1miata

There are 7 or 8 award winning cars. Interesting. New cars from GM? New skinned cars? Which cars may those be?

The reverse engineering has yet to produce the Camry or for that matter the original clone of a VW Beetle. Perhaps the best GM car is one they develop from scratch or at the least, of its own character. A RWD Impala is something very much different than the Camry or Avalon, and should sell well.
Loren

sls002

When the 80 Seville first came out, I really liked the looks. However, as I saw more of them over the next few years, I could see that there was something not quite right about the overall look of the car. In the early 60's I liked the 59 Cadillacs too, but I have come to see that the tailfins were not a sensible styling feature on cars.

The 80 Seville was moved to the FWD E-body platform. The bustleback style looked good on the old cars that had it because they had front fenders and running boards that balanced the style.

examples:
http://www.classiccarshop.co.uk/Cars/rolls_royce_wraith.htm
http://www.cofrase.com/artforum/bookshop/image/h24-046i.htm
http://www.rrab.com/rswraith.htm
http://www.prismacars.com/Silver%20Wraith%20For%20Sale/index.htm

the best perhaps: http://www.marriagecarriage.com/gallery/1955SilverWraithRollsRoyce/55_MJ_2

the point being that the Seville could have been better.

1487

Is that a fact? You seem to be speculating but acting as if you are reporting hard facts. I dont see how GM focusing on Toyota is a bad thing anyway. Toyota is the #1 challenger and GM needs to pay attention to everything Toyota does if they want to stay on top or close to the top.

1487

The Aura and Silverado are two recent GM vehicles that have gotten awards. I'll let you determine if they are "new" or not.

andre1969

Every auto manufacturer has competitive analysis experts spread throughout their engineering organizations. They sell each other components as well. My chev truck has a Nippondenso a/c compressor. Honda bought all the Delphi alternators they could get and even told Delphi to raise the price to them. Everybody is reverse engineering everybody elses's everything every year. That activity is not leading anyone astray, it's a necessary side of the business.

My '89 Gran Fury used Honda Accord starter motors. At least, that's what my mechanic told me. And it used them up on a regular basis, too! :surprise: Oddly, the Honda starter and the GM-sourced carburetor were the two most troublesome components on that car! :P

lokki

I've always thought that the worst example of two-design-teams-never-meeting was the Mustang II - The nose belongs on a much bigger car than the tail! One of the many reasons that muscle car enthusiasts cried their eyes out in the 70's.

andre1969

For some reason, the styling of the Mustang II never really grated my nerves, but looking at that hatchback, I can really see how clumsy it is. It's like they just made up a Mustang front-end and tacked it onto a Pinto. Kinda reminds me of those VW Bugs with the Rolls Royce grille.

At the risk of getting flamed, I have to profess that I don't think the notchback version of the Mustang II is half bad. A far cry from the original, though.

m1miata

Just observation over the years. I bet you don't see how it is a bad thing, just as GM has yet to learn. Here is a clue: Toyota is not the problem, the enemy, or the key.

Loren

m1miata

Mustang II, the Pinto era, could become a collectors car. More of a curiosity or sorts. Beware of rear end collisions -- maybe just trailer the little guy around.
Loren

lokki

Andre, Andre, Andre



On GM's WORST styling day EVER, they weren't responsible for anything like THIS

m1miata

Mustang II doesn't really look bad. It is just the fact it was too close to being a Pinto. Actually, it looks somewhat like the Vega, which is pretty good looking little guy. Recent GM poor stying examples are easy to find. They kinda stand out, like an Ion. And while I like the Monte Carlo in some strange way, it just is a tad awkward in that not all the lines work together. The Ion, and the Grand Prix look like they were assembled of various parts, or have two design teams, with both winning the go-ahead.
The Cadillac STS is plain awkward, as it tried to capitalize on the Art & Science CTS look, yet fails in execution once enlarged and blocked out, then rounded. Just odd.
Loren

lemko

I recall seeing a picture from 1974 of Lee Iacocca posing with the Mustang II - his little "jewel." It would be a good picture to blackmail him with today.

andre1969

the Mustang II just doesn't bother me so much because I keep getting this mental image of Jaclyn Smith or Farrah Fawcett or Cheryl Ladd driving around in one. Poor Kate Jackson, she got stuck with the Pinto! :sick:

danzigdan

I really like the 3-door hatch! I can find a picture of the car with the hatch open. I'd like to see what the cargo area looks like. I checked Vauxhall and Opel and didn't see much.

Interesting that they are going to build them in Belgium. Probably a great thing for the buyer confidence since they have already been building them there.

m1miata

Well it sold well. Took down the massive size increases in the Stangs. And in that respect, it was an accomplishment.

We are now on track to see two massive supersized Pony cars once again. Both the Challenger and the Camaro will be as wide as a truck.

GM needs Mr. Iaccoca -- he's rested, he's ready, action-roll'em !
Loren

1487

You obviously know much more about how to turn around GM than I do, or than GM management for that matter. Whatever you say is fine with me at this point. I suppose you are getting at the fact that RWD cars are what will magically turn GM around. I'm always wary of anyone who glorifies old GM products from 60s and early 70s since those cars werent all that great overall. GM sold a lot more cars back then, but it wasn't because they were smarter than they are now.

1487

C&D has a short review of the Impala LTZ on their site. Shockingly, they dont like it at all. They dont like it's handling (it's not a sports sedan), interior design, materials quality, steering wheel rim width, steering wheel buttons and adjustability, seats, etc. All they liked was the highway ride and trunk space. No mention of the fact that competing cars are not sports sedans. Their complaints about the lack of telescoping steering wheel and lack of auto dual zone AC are legit but that's about all. You dont judge a family sedan as if its a sports sedan.

imidazol97

Those magazines kill me. They pretend to be broadly representative of buyers. The recent mag I saw in waiting room is about driving Bentleys on frozen lakes in Norway.

Now just the other week I told my wife, "Honey, I've been thinking about adding a Bentley to our fleet. Junior will have his temporary permit in a couple of weeks; we need another car in six months or so. Maybe I can get my employer to pay for a trip for me to travel to Norway in season now and test drive Bentleys on lake ice to see how wonderful they are. We might want one. Which money market fund do we want to use to purchase one if I like the Bentley?"

Kirstie_H

Which money market fund do we want to use to purchase one if I like the Bentley?

I believe my answer would be "Warren Buffett's."

rockylee

Toyota, buys all their valve lifters from Delphi.

Rocky

rockylee

Washington D.C. — In a bid to bolster Buick's position against intended competitors Lexus and Acura, the company is launching a rewards program called "Buick Clubhouse" that will give its customers exclusive access to unique events.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=120499

WOW, maybe I should buy a Buick, just to get these once in a lifetime oppertunity's. :shades:

Rocky

lokki

Toyota, buys all their valve lifters from Delphi

Interestingly enough, that seems to be true, or close enough.

I don't know if it's ALL but Toyota is definitely a Delphi customer.....

However, it seems like Delphi had to change their ways to keep the business:

Early in 1990, Toyota Motor Corp. slapped Delphi's face with a figurative white glove for not paying enough attention to continuous quality improvement -- despite Toyota's own estimates that the plant's defect rate was a nearly pure three parts per million. When the Grand Rapids operation added up the feedback from Toyota and other customers, it received quite a wake-up call. Management realized it had to switch its strategy of running a 100-yard quality dash to focus on running a mega-marathon of continuous improvement.

IndustryWeek 1995

I think this article says quite a bit about a lot of things that GM has to confront...