General Motors discussions

xrunner2

It's hardly the only funny looking, but practical, vehicle ever introduced, it's just that its the only one that is remembered and ridiculed since GM made it.

Its the only one "currently" ridiculed. We can open up a picture book of American cars going back say 50 years and start looking at bad GM styling. For starters, 1958 Buick and Oldsmobile full size cars, 1979 Cadillac Seville, recent Firebird nostril hoods, 1959 Chevy, 59 or 60 Buick, 1958 Chevy, Cimmaron, plastic cladded boy racer Pontiacs of 90's, boat-tailed rears of 70's era Grand Prixs and some Rivs, bottle-nosed recent GM minivans, bloated Impalas and Roadmasters of mid-90s, etc, etc, etc.

imidazol97

Are you saying Aztek was not unique?
Are you saying Aztek was behind the times then?
I'd vote for the Toyota Will vi as really strange and the Fiat for UGLY. That's a personal opinion.

cooterbfd

How about the Corvair (OK 40-45 yrs)? The ONLY problem it had was the "tuck under" rear axle, something fixed by 1964. In 1965, the last gen Corvair came out, and it looks quite contemporary today. It's styling was heavily influenced by the concept cars GM built in the 60's. Other than that, the only complaints you can make are about the air cooled engine (lack of heat), and those complaints can be made about same era VW's and Porches

cooterbfd

Its the only one "currently" ridiculed. We can open up a picture book of American cars going back say 50 years and start looking at bad GM styling. For starters, 1958 Buick and Oldsmobile full size cars, 1979 Cadillac Seville, recent Firebird nostril hoods, 1959 Chevy, 59 or 60 Buick, 1958 Chevy, Cimmaron, plastic cladded boy racer Pontiacs of 90's, boat-tailed rears of 70's era Grand Prixs and some Rivs, bottle-nosed recent GM minivans, bloated Impalas and Roadmasters of mid-90s, etc, etc, etc.

Let's see: '58-60 Buicks almost drove them out of business. '58 Chevy, Impala is a very beautiful car('59-60 leave something to be desired), Bottle nosed minivans are quite good looking for a minivan, just not a good minivan. 94-96 Impalasand Roadmasters are becoming highly sought after for their LT-1 V-8's

sls002

what is wrong with the 1979 Seville. I mean, come on, how is it different then the 1976-1978 models????
http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac/seville/76sev.html

Now, the 1980 Seville, with the Eldorado front end coupled with the swoopy rear end, was not quite right looking. It was an awkward mess.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.uol.com.br/bestcars/carros/gm- /cadillac/seville-83.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.uol.com.br/bestcars/ph2/163a-2.ht- m&h=228&w=400&sz=21&hl=en&start=9&tbnid=4ZV0Vs1-2W6C8M:&tbnh=71&tbnw=124&prev=/i- mages%3Fq%3D1980%2Bseville%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

andre1969

Yeah, I thought the same thing at first, but then it hit me that he probably meant the bustleback '80-85 style. Honestly though, I think it's pretty good looking for what it is. Much better than the Fairmont based Continental sedan. Although I think the '81-83 Imperial carried that look off better. The Seville had a neoclassic look to it, while the Continental just looked like a tarted up Fairmont. The Imperial looked downright evil though...like something Darth Vader would drive!

And one thing I'll say for those bustleback Sevilles...gawd, they were comfortable cars! I prefer the style of the '75-79, but had a chance to sit in one at the Hershey Park car show/swap meet last October. I was disappointed. Way too cramped inside, even with the power seat adjustments.

lokki

Correct , the Aztek wasn't ahead of anything. At its launch the Aztek was touted as Detroit's answer to Japanese innovation in the booming SUV segment - thr CR-V and the RAV-4. If you want to stick to the domestic market, Chrysler's PT Cruiser had the idea first (in this decade at least), with its minivan-style, multi-configurable interior. The Aztek was rushed from show car to production on the insistence that GM prove it could go from show car to production car as fast as Chrysler had with the PT Cruiser.

Since the category was introduced in the late 1990s with the Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V, crossovers have quickly gained consumer acceptance. Manufact-urers have responded with a steady introduction of new models to further attract buyers.
"In 1999, there were only five models in the CUV category," said Alan Baum, director of automotive forecasting for The Planning Edge. "These early offerings included the Pontiac Aztek, the Lexus RX 300 and the Subaru Forester. By 2004, there were 34 models, CUV's

Here's an interesting BusinessWeek article from December 2000 about the Aztek. The original Aztek show car was better proportioned... but the engineers wanted to fit the design onto an available minivan ... well they made it fit, alright.
Aztek

Oh, and we DO agree on the Will as wierd and the Fiat as UUUUUGLY!

andre1969

Wow, so then the PT Cruiser actually came out BEFORE the Aztek? IIRC, the PT was introduced as an '01 model, but was out by April or so of 2000.

It's weird though, about the Aztek. I still have this vivid picture in my mind of following my buddy to the dealership to drop off his '98 Tracker for servicing. I was in my '89 Gran Fury. We saw the new Azteks and ragged on them for being so ugly. And then we went to 6 flags in Joisey after that, in my Gran Fury. So it HAD to be 1999! If it was 2000, I would've had my Intrepid by then, and we would've taken that. But if the Aztek came out as a 2001, there's no way it would've been out in the summer of '99!

Maybe it was some other GM model we were ragging on that summer? :P

As for the PT Cruiser, trend setter that it may have been, I think on the domestic front the Focus wagon deserves some credit. While it's just a tallish wagon and not a "true" crossover, IMO it's the same basic idea as a PT Cruiser, just in packaging that tried to be "new edge" instead of "suddenly it's 1939".

montzter

"The Aztek was a mess from nose to tail - and the nose and tail could have been designed in different styling studios."

Did you ever see the episode of the Simpsons, where Homer meets his long lost brother? The voice was Danny Devito and he owned a car company and Homer designed a new car that bankrupted the company. The funny part was when the car was unveiled and and everyone was shocked at how horrible it was. Kind of like ideas that sounded great at the time, but the end result was a joke....

What I'm getting at is, do you suppose that was what everyone was thinking when the Aztec finally rolled off of the assembly line???

montzter

"GM just posted a profit in the last quarter so I think we have reached the point where we can say their improvements are yielding financial benefits."

GM has a history of losing market share, then losing money, then closing plants and cutting costs to adjust to the lower market share to regain profitability. Eventually they will only have one plant remaining to close. What are the long term financial benefits of that strategy?

montzter

"The first generation Prius wasnt a big seller and neither was the Tercel or it's replacement the Echo. People didnt want those vehicles when gas was cheaper. Toyota launched them and they got a lukewarm reception at the time. These models were launched simply because it was cheap for Toyota to do so since they were offered in other markets, not because Toyota was smart enough to know gas prices would double in less than two years. You are giving them way too much credit."

That's called planning for the future. Remeber how the domestics got burned by a market shift in the late 70's, just like they are today? Why is Toyota not losing market share? Does not GM also compete with Toyota in these "other" markets where Toyota offered these fuel efficient vehicles first?

m1miata

Yes, they will be contenders for show cars. And any Corvette and Camaro. I was driving behind a last of Aurora design, and it looked about as good as anything built recently.
-Loren

m1miata

Aveo vs. Corolla = not impressive. Less MPG with Less power. Aveo still doesn't seem to make any sense.

Loren

210delray

...and a virtual torrent is unleashed (no pun intended)!

No question, that vehicle remains controversial.

Andre, if memory serves, both the PT Cruiser and Aztek came out around the same time, in early or mid-2000 or so as 2001 models.

BTW, the used car lot about a mile from my house had one of those bustle-back Sevilles out in front the other day. Really stands out now from today's cars! This one had a vinyl top (maybe a "carriage" top).

Looking back, I think GM made a lot more great-looking cars than dogs back in the 1950-1980 period. This coincides with the last days of Harley Earl and the dominance of Bill Mitchell. Ford and Chrysler mostly followed; they did not lead (notable exception: those '57 "forward look" Mopars).

m1miata

'68-69 was about the best two years of GM style, in my opinion. Look at the Toronado, Chevelle, Malibu SS, Camaro, Corvair, Buick Skylark, Olds. Cutlass (though I like '72 too), Ponitiac Trans Am, Cadillacs - Eldos, the list went on and on. 1968 and 1969 were pretty awesome for American cars, especially GM. Of course everything from AMX to Roadrunners looked so cool ! Most of the 1950 cars looked like one big hunk of steel, the 1957 Chevy being one of those, why 'oh why did people buy these for collector cars? Now the 50's Corvettes -- yeah hot!
Loren

tlong

The 2nd gen Pruis' sales were significantly higher once gas prices went up. I believe last year was it's best year so far. Even so that doesn't change the fact that the Echo was a flop and the Yaris is only a moderate success.

I agree that the Echo was a mess and the Yaris is still not very good. The FJ looks good (to me) but I sat in it and no way, it is not practical at all.

On the other hand, I think many of the GM trucks are quite good, and although I haven't taken a personal look at the Aura, my sense is that it is truly competitive.

I don't see many people here saying everything GM makes is junk, or everything Toyota makes is wonderful. Broad generalizations to prove a point in arguments aren't helping, most people are much more balanced than that. It doesn't make the argument any stronger. Example:

according the logic of GM bashers a company should either be green or not green

Is this an overstatement of what anybody said? Interesting...which post said that? I read comments that GM had not been forward looking when highly profitable, when Toyota had been.

That is all.

62vetteefp

The idea that it's OK to produce gas guzzlers as long as you make small cars is ridiculous. either you are concerned about the environment or you're not.

Shameful! That's exactly what GM is doing. GM has just shown three mini cars concepts and is looking to sell at least one. But it is not ridiculous in this case to have both gas guzzlers and mini cars. It's GM we are talking about, isn't it?

The point here is that Toyota is known to the public as an evironmentally friendly one and GM is sorta the opposite. In actuality they both are known for their specialties (Toyota for small cars/Hybrids because that is what they are really good at and GM for trucks because that is what they have been good at). In actuality both sell what they can sell. And times change. Toyota is trying very hard to get into the truck market with a huge pick up truck and GM is trying to get more market share with small cars / hybrids.

In actuality they sell what the public will buy. Toyota knows that ~50% of the market is trucks and they are going after that market. GM knows that ~50% of the market is cars and they are trying to sell more vehicles at that end. Again they are both trying to sell what the public wants. Neither are really more environmentally thinking, they just started at different ends of the market.

If we really want to see who is enviromentally worried and doing something about it we should look at their operations. GM has the most environmentally friendly plants in the nation.

DETROIT (Dec. 14, 2006) -- As a result of the company’s commitment to renewable energy sources and conservation efforts, General Motors today reported that is has reduced its energy use by 25 percent and added solar and landfill gas as energy sources at its North American facilities over the past five years.

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/news_issues/news/plant-energy-12- 1506.html

62vetteefp

Toyota is to be given credit for being so aggressive with hybrids but that is only a small part of their success. I believe hybrids are about 10% of Toyota's total sales

Under 7% for 2006 but I am sure sales are up this year.

62vetteefp

Come on, some of those vehicles are beautiful. I think it is all opinion.

One of my favorite vehicles would be a 1958 Chevrolet sports coupe or convertible. I would take it over my dads 56 chevy convertible anyday.

imidazol97

The '58 with the 4-door and the reverse C-pillar is my favorite. Probably white is the best color. I'll have to look up the 2-door hardtop that you mention.

210delray

I like the '58 Chevys also; I just think the Impala had way too much chrome (not out of line of course with other 1958 cars). Which is why if given a choice, I'd go with the Bel Air or Biscayne of that year. With the former, you could get a 4-door hardtop.

I wouldn't pick white, but one of the more exotic colors for the time like turquoise.

1487

"GM has a history of losing market share, then losing money, then closing plants and cutting costs to adjust to the lower market share to regain profitability. Eventually they will only have one plant remaining to close. What are the long term financial benefits of that strategy? "

You are right, they are about to go out of business. What was I thinking? Companies with $200B in revenue go out of business all the time. GM isnt just closing factories randomly, they are closing their older, underutilized factories. GM just opened a factory for the new crossovers and the Cadillac plant in Lansing is only 6 years old.

1487

"That's called planning for the future. Remeber how the domestics got burned by a market shift in the late 70's, just like they are today? Why is Toyota not losing market share? Does not GM also compete with Toyota in these "other" markets where Toyota offered these fuel efficient vehicles first? "

you have to have some understanding of the realities of the industry to engage in real debate about these issues. Yes GM makes small cars in other markets but GM doesnt have the luxury of being able to import cars whenever it wants due to the UAW. The Asians do not have that problem and thus they can import cars from Europe, Asia or wherever as soon as they can get those cars to meet US standards. Notice the Astra and G8 will be imported in very limited quantities. If GM suddenly announced they planned to import 100k+ small Opels from Europe while closing more US plants and laying off union workers the UAW would go ballistic.

Toyota isnt losing share because they are constantly expanding their lineup and they have a grade A reputation. It's not because they are committed to making only fuel efficient vehicles. As I said earlier, hybrids are about 10% of their sales. Toyota's lineup is bigger than it's ever been and they now have three brands. ALl of the domestic companies have shed brands in the last decade or so or cut down their model offerings. It's not like Toyota has gained all these sales with the same model lineup it had 10 years ago. Toyota will continue to add models until they feel the public has no appetitie for additional models.

BTW, this "market shift" that you and others are talking about isnt all that major. Trucks/SUVs are still half the market and some SUV models like the Pilot are doing quite well in spite of $3/gal gas. Not every SUV is facing a sales collapse, its mainly medium and large body on frame SUVs. To hear people like you talk the SUV market is crashing and subcompact sales are booming. That isnt the case at all. Compare sales of the faltering Trailblazer or Explorer to the Fit or Yaris if you dont believe me.

1487

I agree with you 100%. It's amazing how GM's overall environmental friendliness is never mentioned when people get on the "GM only cares about gas guzzlers" topic. I have yet to read anything suggesting any of Toyota's US (or other)plants are as "green" as GM's latest plant. as far as I know GM's newest plant is likely the most "green" auto plant in the world and there has been little media coverage of this. I have also asked why Toyota can't ever reuse brownfields or existing auto plants when expanding their base here in the US. I have gotten excuses in response. Toyota is green but they shouldn't be expected to if it will increase their costs or pose any inconvenience or force them open a plant in union territory.

andre1969

I like the '58 Chevys also; I just think the Impala had way too much chrome (not out of line of course with other 1958 cars). Which is why if given a choice, I'd go with the Bel Air or Biscayne of that year. With the former, you could get a 4-door hardtop.

I think the only problem with the '58 Bel Air is that the 2-door hardtop looks a bit clunky. It looks kinda like they just took the 2-door sedan and removed the B-pillar and the frame around the window. The Impala is a lot sleeker. The difference between the two is actually a bit subtle at first, but if you see a Bel Air and an Impala hardtop side by side, the difference is fairly pronounced.

One thing I think the '58 Chevy did really good though, was the 4-door sedan. Back then, it seems like the automakers put most of their effort into making the hardtops and convertibles look good, but the sedans were more of an afterthought. I thought the '58 Chevy sedan had a nice, upscale look to it, with nice proportions. It looked like a much more expensive car than it really was.

In contrast, while I love the '58 Plymouth, I always thought the 4-door sedan style looked a bit awkward. The main reason being is that it used the same roof as a Dodge, DeSoto, or Chrysler. And what looks proportionate on a 218"+ DeSoto or Chrysler, or even a 214" Dodge, just seems too big on a ~206" Plymouth.

I also kinda like the '58 Ford Fairlane/Fairlane 500 sedans. They look like they used a sleeker hardtop roofline and just added a B-pillar and window frames. The cheaper 300 series had more of an upright, old-fashioned roofline though.

lemko

...but I would LOVE to have a massive 1958 Buick Limited four-door hardtop. I had an opportunity to buy a nice 1958 Oldsmobile Super 88 back when I got my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe, but the guy wanted $2,500 which was a LOT of money to a 16 year-old kid in 1981. Too bad. The car was in beautiful condition. It was white with a red top and interior.

torque_r

I agree with you 100%. It's amazing how GM's overall environmental friendliness is never mentioned when people get on the "GM only cares about gas guzzlers

While I am certain GM made a great effort and spent a lot of money to produce environmentally friendly cars from the GM EV1 to the upcoming Yukon Hybrid, we have to admit that the general public judge what they see. I am not even sure if anyone remembers the GM EV1 anymore, or if anyone will remember the Saturn Vue Hyrbid. The bottom line: At this moment, GM produces ZERO hybrids. The production of the Vue did not last more than 5 months. Let's wait for the Aura Hybrid. Should be on sale very soon I think.

bumpy

You can afford to get one now, though having a nice car in Philly is probably a bad idea.

midwesttrader

Some good news from the general:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070419/UPDATE/704190432

holdenguy

On the other hand, I think many of the GM trucks are quite good, and although I haven't taken a personal look at the Aura, my sense is that it is truly competitive.

Guys, some good news for you on the truck dept.
Your more than likely getting Holden SS Utes re-badged as
Chevy El Camino. Check the link :-)

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21225731-5012441,00.html

210delray

I think as time goes by, those '58 GM cars don't look so bad, at least IMHO. Not so for Ford's Edsel of course!

The Chevy and Pontiac are actually nicely styled, if you strip away the excess chrome. The Buick Limited -- well that one was a little over the top.

But there was a nice looking '58 Buick Special 4-door sedan for sale a few years back at the local rent-a-wreck place. It was that gunmetal gray color and I think had a white roof. It looked to be in very good condition, both inside and out. Asking price was $8200 IIRC.

andre1969

but I would LOVE to have a massive 1958 Buick Limited four-door hardtop. I had an opportunity to buy a nice 1958 Oldsmobile Super 88 back when I got my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe, but the guy wanted $2,500 which was a LOT of money to a 16 year-old kid in 1981.

Actually, when it comes to the '58 Buick, I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with them. I think they're just too massive, heavy-handed, and chromey, but somehow it manages to pull it off. It's what I would classify as "ugly but cool", I guess. It's amazing though, the night-and-day difference between the '57 and '58. Essentially the same car, but it's incredible how much they mucked it up for '58.

Now the '58 Olds, I'm much less enamored with. I think stylewise, it plunged even further from '57-58 than the Buick did! Still, that blue one we saw at Carlisle last year wasn't too bad looking. I think the monotone color helped tone it down a bit.

Also, in '58, the top-line Buicks were just more prestigious than the Oldsmobiles, actually being built on the larger Cadillac platform. So IMO, that makes them a bit more magical. In contrast, a 1958 Olds Ninety Eight was just an 88/Special/Century B-body with a 4-inch stretch in wheelbase. I can't remember if the 4 inches went ahead of the cowl or just moved the rear wheels further back, but it didn't translate into a bigger car inside. That would come in 1959, when the Olds 98 moved to the C-body, shared with the new Electra series and the Cadillac (although they may have actually called the Caddy a D-body back then)

cooterbfd

I saw in Seekonk Mass. yesterday a '58 Roadmaster 75 sedan in black. What a striking automobile!!! Even the wife was impressed.

bumpy

From a global perspective, GM is actually doing fairly well. It's just the North American market (and some segments in Europe) that is steadily collapsing.

sls002

I think hybrids are a dubious design. I know someone who got one (with the $3000+ tax credit) but they are getting about 40 MPG with it, not the 60 MPG the EPA rated it at for city driving.

GM's Volt, which depends on developing some new batteries, is a better design. The EV1 was using the power grid, which is powered for the most part by coal burning power plant, so it was probably causing as much or more environment damage as an Escalade.

210delray

My son got a Prius last summer with the $3000+ tax credit. He and his wife live in NYC, and they're get around 45 mpg. Everyone knows the 60 mpg is unrealistic. It's a great car for the city, considering the congestion.

Using the power grid isn't so bad, since it's a lot easier to control emissions at relatively few stationary power plants (including those that burn coal) than hundreds of millions of individual vehicles, many of which receive minimal maintenance.

lokki

I agree with you 100%. It's amazing how GM's overall environmental friendliness is never mentioned when people get on the "GM only cares about gas guzzlers" topic.

I agree with you 100% too.

It's a symptom of our media's sound-bite culture. People only see the flashiest tip of the iceberg.

When the media thinks GM, they think (in this order, I believe)
1. Hummer
2. Escalade
3. Corvette (which really has pretty good MPG)

When the media thinks Toyota, they think:

1.Prius
2.Echo/Yaris
3.Camry

For them it's all about show business and the flashiest - not facts. I mean, Elvis probably ate yoghurt too, but all you hear about is the deep-fried peanut butter sandwiches.

imidazol97

> EV1 was using the power grid, which is powered for the most part by coal burning power plant, so it was probably causing as much or more environment damage as an Escalade

I was listening to someone discuss a study that totalled the enviornmental damage done by the Prius. The mining of the chromium, etc., etc., and found it's much, much greater than just buying a high mileage petroleum-using automobile. With some background in what they were talking about, I found the discussion right on point about the Prius' not being as "green" as the company and the drivers and us in the public would like them to be.

sls002

I real problem is the carbon emissions, in the form of carbon dioxide, which is a green house gas. The CO2 is a prime cause of global warming. The solution is to stop using all forms of carbon fuels (coal, natural gas, oil).

210delray

Have you seen Jib Jab's latest on "What Passes for the News Today?" Hilarious, but on the mark at the same time.

imidazol97

>the form of carbon dioxide, which is a green house gas. The CO2 is a prime cause of global warming.

That has not been determined to be a definite fact other than by Al Gore. Climatologists have a different opinion than meteorologists like the weatherchannel person aren't scientists knowledgeable in weather. The scope of weather on the earth changes with much greater factors than man can ever invoke.

sls002

imidazol97 - this?
http://www.thecarconnection.com/blog/?p=588

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Green_Car_News/Prius_Versus_HUMMER_Exp- loding_the_Myth.S196.A12220.html

62vetteefp

Everyone thinks toyota is taking over the sales lead from GM. Yet GM outsells Toyota in the US by a large margin. It is worldwide that Toyota has been taking over GM and most do not realize that.

Howevever GM is on the offensive world wide and while sales here are slightly dropping to steady now, worldwide they are increasing. Will be interesting to hear how Toyota did worldwide last quarter.

sls002

Carbon dioxide is a green house gas, it does trap energy in the atmosphere, it does warm the earth. Atmospheric carbon dioxide has been increasing since monitoring of the levels started about 50 years ago. However, there are natural sources of CO2, not just fossil fuels. There may be some changes in the solar constant that is also contibuting. Al Gore is not a scientist.

If you know anything about math and black body radiation, a simple model of the earth, atmoshpere is easily constructed, and by giving the atmosphere different absorbtion values, one can get various surface temperatures for the earth. A multi-level atmosphere is more accurate, but the math becomes more difficult. The real problem is that the atmosphere is not a black body, but absorbs energy at different wave lengths. A numerical model of the real process is very complex, and the computations are intensive. This means that long term climate models probably use a simple scheme of dubious value.

1487

I believe the Aura GL is on sale now. It's on the saturn website and you can build one with real prices.

Hybrids:

Ford: 2
Toyota: 5
GM: 1
Nissan: 1 in eight states only.
Hyundai: 0
DC: 0
Honda: 2
BMW: 0

Sorry, but if looking at hybrid offerings is the only measure of being environmentally responsible than I would have to say only Toyota is in that category. As I have said before, GM will have 5 hybrids on the market by the end of the year. The only reason the Vue hybrid wont be available for a few months is due to model changeover. I dont think there will be any new vues for a few months. The new model comes in May or June I think. Production has stopped on the current model.

In spite of the fact that GM's crossovers, SUVs, pickups, sports cars and midsize cars get class competitive or leading mileage GM has the image of a gas guzzling, greedy corporation that cars little for the environment. That is because the media and most import leaning auto fans chose to pretend GM makes nothing but Hummers and Escalades. They also chose to ignore that IF you want to buy a truck you will get the best mileage in GM trucks. Instead of saying that Toyota's hybrids excuse their gas guzzlers, I say they make Toyota's poor truck mileage even more unacceptable. If Toyota can get 45mpg from a Pruis I dont see why they cant get 20mpg from a large SUV or pickup.

62vetteefp

I do not want to get into global warming here BUT I believe that it is happening. In fact all the planets in our solar system are warming. The question is are we helping it along?

I do know every time I see real data it proves that our vehicles are such a tiny contributor that it is hilarious that vehicles are blamed. Does anyone have any DATA site that can convince me otherwize?

1487

I believe GM's share in Europe has actually increased this year and the Astra is the 2nd best selling car over there.

m1miata

A brick with chrome on it. Perhaps it is just me, as so many people buy these old 50's American cars, but I just don't see what they see in them, I suppose. There are a few, like the '56 T-Bird, or Corvette, which come to mind, or some very good efforts from Studebaker. But all too many are bricks, with wings, and chrome. A WWII era Alfa Romeo or Jaguar looks like a sexy car. But then again, I liked the MGA far more than the MGB cars. I guess some like the more rectangular. And there are a few good ones with straighter lines. Seems to me a '49 Ford Coupe was moving in the right direction for a modern, and smooth stylish car. And fins? My goodness, guess we can add that to gawdy 22" chrome wheels of today, as some of the worst looking abominations in car history. Recall those large bullets in the front of Buicks? Those were hard on pedestrians, and deer. Oh that poor deer. :sick:
Loren

imidazol97

That's right. The sun's energy output changes in cycles and we are in a warming cycle as indicated by warming of other planets. The climatologists cited indicated there is no definitive evidence of man's having caused global warming or of man's being able to cause enough change to impact the greater forces at work. That's despite the Michael Moore and Al Gore types thinking they'll make political hay out of the topic.

I'm back to GM on the Offensive.

1487

all of the "experts" who have guaranteed that Toyota will pass GM seem to ignore the possibility of GM increasing worldwide sales this year just like Toyota. I dont think Toyota is gaining significant share vs GM in any market outside of the US market. I believe Toyota made 9 or 9.1Mil vehicles last year. Based on this new GM info it would seem that GM could get close to 10mil in 2007. Mnay analyst seem to substitutes US sales for global sales when talking about how bad GM is doing. GM sales are growing, but recently Toyota sales have been growing faster, primarily due to success in the US.