I immediately thought of the recently dropped Subaru Brat when I first saw a Switch photo yesterday.
(Saturn Switch)
(Subaru Baja)
I like the transition treatment between the bed and the cab better than the Ridgeline - it's hard to tell from the photo if the liftover height will be as tall as the Ridgeline and most other pickups these days but it looks like a stepladder may be a useful option.
1487: Never said anything about these vehicle being GM's salvation. In case you forgot, we were talking about fuel economy and you were stating that GM is putting all its eggs in the gas guzzler SUV basket and they would pay a price for this. I was saying that if you look at GM's future product plans its apparent to anyone who choses to see that GM is preparing many models that will get good mileage.
I am saying that those promised new GM vehicles that were supposed to halt market share erosion, boost sales, restore profits, cut fleet sales, etc., have disappointed in the past. Doesn't matter how good the mileage is they don't sell. And it also doesn't matter how good the mileage is if the vehicle is second-rate in other areas.
1487: You are an expert on GM's past, but I want you to explain to me how GM is less prepared for high gas prices than Ford, Nissan, Chrysler, MB, VW, etc. Sure Toyota and Honda are launching small cars, but the rest of the industry- especially the Germans, are busy launching huge SUVs and powerful V8, V10 and V12 cars.
GM is less prepared than Toyota and Honda because it does not make much (if any) money on high-mileage vehicles, while those manufacturers do. If gas hits $4 a gallon, GM's biggest profit makers sit on the lot, and its most fuel-efficient vehicles, which generate little, if any, profit, increase in sales.
As for the Germans - yes, you are correct, they are launching more gas guzzlers. But those vehicles aren't their main (or only) source of profits. If the Mercedes or BMW V-12s flop, it results in egg on the parent company's face. If GM's big SUVs and pickups don't sell, GM is in big trouble.
1487: Why do you think GM doesnt make money on cars? They dont make money because their cost structure makes it hard to make money on something that sells for $20k or less. It has nothing to do with the cars being "second rate".
Because they are second-rate compared to the competition (with few exceptions), they cannot command higher prices. They only move with hefty rebates, or large sales to fleet customers. This hurts profit margins, and reduces resale value. It also erodes brand image.
1487: BTW, Second rate compared to what?
Honda Accord and Civic, for starters. The Mazda3 and 6, the VW Passat, even some versions of the Ford Fusion.
1487: GM's worst cars are its oldest cars- Malibu, Lacrosse and Cobalt. Even those cars are at least as good as what you can get from Ford, Chrysler or Hyundai.
The LaCrosse and Cobalt were going to spearhead GM's turnaround just 2-3 years ago, and now they already among GM's worst, and only as good as the competition from Ford, Chrysler and Hyundai, which isn't much of a compliment.
And I doubt that most people view the Ford Fusion as being inferior to the Malibu or LaCrosse. Even the Cobalt has only equalled the much older Focus in the tests I've seen.
1487: The Aura, Impala, Lucerne, 2008 CTS and 2008 Malibu are in no way 2nd rate.
The 2008 Malibu and CTS aren't here yet, although they do look promising. The Impala is an underwhelming makeover of a model that wasn't all that hot in the first place. The Aura is a good car, as is the Lucerne, but I recall saying that there were some exceptions in the lineup.
1487: And dont even say GM loses money on cars due to lack of efficiency because studies show GM plants are near the top in hours per vehicle.
Those surveys show that SOME GM plants are near the top, and they are primarily old plants that have produced the same vehicles for years, although, if I recall correctly, the new Lansing plant that produces the Sigma-based Cadillacs does do well.
Plus, not enough GM plants are "flexible" in the manner that Honda and Toyota plants are (i.e., they can't easily switch production of different models).
1487: I find it interesting that the people who dont want to hear about unreleased GM products will be quick to say "just wait until the 2008 Accord comes out!" when people note that the Accord is inferior to several midsize offerings on the market now.
None of the offerings from GM, at least based on Car & Driver and Consumer Reports, two of the most credible testers.
I don't know what the 2008 model will bring, although, based on spy shots, the styling isn't very attractive.
...if the LaCrosse and the Cobalt are GM's worst cars, GM as a whole must be pretty awesome!!! If you want to see just how far GM has come, sit in a Chevrolet Classic (old Malibu) and then sit in a LaCrosse. It's like a night and day difference.
"I am saying that those promised new GM vehicles that were supposed to halt market share erosion, boost sales, restore profits, cut fleet sales, etc., have disappointed in the past. Doesn't matter how good the mileage is they don't sell. And it also doesn't matter how good the mileage is if the vehicle is second-rate in other areas. "
Another lie. Not every GM model that has been introduced recently has been a flop as you suggest. They have overpromised on some models such as the 2004 Malibu, but other models like the HHR, Impala, G6, Lucerne, CTS, Equinox, Vette, etc. have done well. GM could use more hits, but they have generated some in recent years contrary to your comments. Also, I would love to know how you can predict that GM's future products wont sell regardless of fuel economy. I find that to be an interesting prediction because most bashers say that GM's current sales woes ars due to lack of efficient models. Now you are telling us that their new models with good mileage still wont sell because they are GM made. Interesting. You are extremely biased and extremely uninformed. You are making 2007 comments with a knowledge base of 1997 GM products which explains a lot about why you are off base so often. Even skeptics such as Edmunds and C&D have acknowledged that its not business as usual at GM. Read C&D's online first drive of the Vue, they love the interior quality and styling.
"GM is less prepared than Toyota and Honda because it does not make much (if any) money on high-mileage vehicles, while those manufacturers do."
How can you prove that GM cant and wont make money on the Tahoe hybrid or the Aura/Malibu hybrid? Again, you dont know what you are talking about. GM doesnt make money on SMALL cars like the Cobalt but that doesnt mean they can't make money on hybrid SUVs or cars like Vue, Aura, Tahoe/Yukon, etc. I would imagine that the Tahoe hybrid is going to be well over $35k when it goes on sale and I would bet they will make a profit on that.
"The 2008 Malibu and CTS aren't here yet, although they do look promising. The Impala is an underwhelming makeover of a model that wasn't all that hot in the first place."
The Impala is so underwhelming that its the 3rd best selling car in the country. I agree with you 100%. So underwhelming that it outsells the Fusion, 6, Sonata, 500, and Altima. Lets just say its underwhelming in YOUR opinion because the public likes the car. I find the camry underwhelming but the public strongly disagrees.
"The LaCrosse and Cobalt were going to spearhead GM's turnaround just 2-3 years ago, and now they already among GM's worst, and only as good as the competition from Ford, Chrysler and Hyundai, which isn't much of a compliment. "
They are GM's 2nd oldest sedans after CTS so it would be normal for them to be in need of updates. As time goes on models become also rans, thats the way the industry works and thats why the Accord is lagging three of its competitors as we speak. BTW, I would love for you to find a quote where someone from GM said the Cobalt was going to save the company.
"Those surveys show that SOME GM plants are near the top, and they are primarily old plants that have produced the same vehicles for years, although, if I recall correctly, the new Lansing plant that produces the Sigma-based Cadillacs does do well. "
Who cares how old they are? Your insult doesnt even make sense. Older plants SHOULD be less likely to be competitive because of their layouts, # of workers and # of robots. The fact that the Oshawa plant and others are near the top in productivity in spite of being old is a credit to GM. You say these plants have been making the "Same" products for years but that is irrelevant because retooling is usually required when a model changes over and even it wasnt I dont see how this dampens the fact that GM can make a car as fast as its competitors.
"but I recall saying that there were some exceptions in the lineup. "
There are more exceptions than bad cars in the lineup. Thats the problem with your inaccurate generalizations. The only cars GM makes that I would say need an update ASAP are the cobalt, Lacrosse, CTS, GP and Malibu. All but the cobalt are getting replaced or updated. The vette, Aura, Impala, Lucerne/DTS, G6, XLR and STS are all nice cars that compete well in their segments.
"Plus, not enough GM plants are "flexible" in the manner that Honda and Toyota plants are (i.e., they can't easily switch production of different models). "
I know already, but what does that have to do with GM's super efficient plants? GM has less flexible plants because it has fewer new US plants than Toyota/Honda.
"None of the offerings from GM, at least based on Car & Driver and Consumer Reports, two of the most credible testers. "
LOL! I love that, the two sources that bash GM the most are the most credible. MT, Edmunds nor R&T have compared the Accord to the Aura or G6 GTP and you are ready to announce there is an industry consensus that the Accord is light years ahead of anything GM offers. Seeing as though the Camry was rated higher than the Accord by Edmunds and Motorweek, AW and Automobile indicated they like the Aura more than Camry/Accord I would say your assumption shouldnt be taken as fact.
"I don't know what the 2008 model will bring, although, based on spy shots, the styling isn't very attractive. "
exactly, I rented a lacrosse and its nowhere near as bad as the "experts" and GM critics want you to believe. If it wasnt a Buick it would sell far better. The car is quiet, rides like a Lexus and has top notch interior materials. There isnt anything hard inside the car. Sure the wood looks fake, but so does the wood in the camry, accord, Altima, Impala, etc.
See thats the thing about import lovers, they are quick to use sales as a gauge of the competence of a model as long as you're talking domestic products. They would never use such criteria to judge import flops such as the RL, Ridgeline, Avalon, Accord Hybrid, Acura CL, etc.
Let's see (first quarter 2007, I have the Jan.-Apr. numbers at home):
LaCrosse: 10,603, down 35.2% from prior year period RL: 1547, down 40.5% Ridgeline: 11,009, down 19.3% Avalon: 19,635, down 12.9% Accord Hybrid: no separate breakout available Accord (all models): 92,590, up 20.3% CL: out of production since 2005?
All Chevy cars: 187,034, down 3.3% (only Impala and Aveo are up, 25.3% and 44.1% respectively).
All Buick cars: 30,258, down 24.3% (no nameplates are up)
All Pontiac cars: 70,995, down 12.9% (no nameplates are up)
All Saturn cars: 28,820, up 28.5% (Aura is new, Ion is down)
All Toyota cars: 301,501, up 16.7% (all nameplates up except Avalon, Scion xA/xB, and discontinued Celica)
All Honda cars: 194,550, up 2.5% (Accord and Fit up, Civic and S2000 down)
All Nissan cars: 134,902, up 17.3% (Versa new, Altima up, Sentra, Maxima, and 350Z down).
One interesting tidbit: someone said a while back that the LaCrosse would eventually trounce the Chrysler 300. Never happened. Even now:
300: 30,376, down 22.8%
I can do trucks too. Just the facts on the ground, no hyperbole, no trying to parse magazine comparo test results.
Saturn is doing very well. Too bad they don't have more dealers. I dont' think their numbers being up so much will offset the other divisions being down - are they close to the size of Buick?
Buick - Oh my! Where did everyone go?
Impala is very popular. Pretty hard to say that a car whose sales are up 25% isn't a nice enough car; particularly noting the drop in fleet sales by Chevrolet.
The G6 might be popular but not enough to help Pontiac
Honda is doing OK, but nothing special - hmmm I liked the new Accord much more than the new Camry, but I've always prefered Honda to Toyota.
Toyota is on a roll. Say what you will about them, they're selling tons of cars.
1487: I find that to be an interesting prediction because most bashers say that GM's current sales woes ars due to lack of efficient models.
I said that GM makes little, if any, money, on its more fuel-efficient models. It will be hurt more by a rise in gas prices than many other companies.
1487: You are making 2007 comments with a knowledge base of 1997 GM products which explains a lot about why you are off base so often.
That's why I referred to the LaCrosse, Cobalt, G6 and Aura, which, the last time I checked, debuted considerably after 1997.
1487: The Impala is so underwhelming that its the 3rd best selling car in the country. I agree with you 100%. So underwhelming that it outsells the Fusion, 6, Sonata, 500, and Altima.
Yep, that's what fleet sales and incentives will do for a car.
Here's an assignment:
1. Check out the percentage of fleet sales (compared to total sales) for the Impala. Do the same for the Accord.
2. Check out the level of incentives needed to move both models
Get back to me with your results, and we'll go from there.
1487: Lets just say its underwhelming in YOUR opinion because the public likes the car.
If we define "public" as the purchasing managers of Hertz, Alamo and Avis, you have a point.
1487: As time goes on models become also rans, thats the way the industry works and thats why the Accord is lagging three of its competitors as we speak.
The Cobalt, LaCrosse and G6 were "also rans" from the moment they hit the market.
1487: Who cares how old they are? Your insult doesnt even make sense.
It's not an insult; it's a fact.
1487: Older plants SHOULD be less likely to be competitive because of their layouts, # of workers and # of robots. The fact that the Oshawa plant and others are near the top in productivity in spite of being old is a credit to GM.
Nope. Older plants building the same product should be well-versed in what needs to be done to get the product out the door.
1487: LOL! I love that, the two sources that bash GM the most are the most credible.
We need a dictionary for what I call "1487Speak."
For example, if you deem a magazine's test results as "not credible," that really means it reached a result somehow unfavorable to a GM product.
This will make reading future posts easier, and save us lots of time.
My guess is that the up-tick in Saturn sales is due to them finally having something to sell. The SUVs are probably the top selling, followed by the Aura line, which they had absolutely nothing to offer before. The Astra should help out some too, as the Ion was on life support.
The G6 may be popular, but I don't see many around here. The sporty coupe, which is the best looking one, the rarest of finds on the road around here.
Impala was a most impressive job of dressing a car up. Hats off to the team which did the magic. This is a car which is probably selling for those in need of size and price. Add in the new longer warranty, better interior and some chrome on the outside, and sales increased. It fills a need, it is what it is. The New Impala should be interesting, as it more closely will compete with new designs, and RWD cars, like the Chrysler 300. It should be a success, if the gas mileage stays as good enough. Hopefully the RWD will not contribute to weight gains.
The point was simply to show some of the numbers, which often tell the story better than accusations hurled back and forth. The LaCrosse never got off the ground, and neither did the Lucerne, even though I think the latter is a very nice effort on GM's part. The LaCrosse always struck me as too much of an ovoid Taurus lookalike, with a little prior-gen Lexus GS thrown in. I will grant you the interior is nice.
The Cobalt got some traction in its second year, but is already fading. Just think what a hit this car could have been if GM had introduced it in 2001, or better yet, in 1995 when it refreshed the then-13-year-old Cavalier. Looks like the Pontiac G6 is already peaking, despite its "first ever" billing, Oprah's giveaway, and the coupe/convertible intros. Yet the Accord, even in its 5th and last year of the current design, is still increasing strongly in sales (I realize Honda is adding incentives to move this model, but still...)
It would be nice if there were a ready source of retail vs. fleet sales numbers -- that would clarify the situation a lot better.
brbeck you continue to bring a knife to a gunfight. YOu are very biased and angry and that clouds your logic.
GM nor Honda break out fleet sales by model. You should know that already. The Impala has higher fleet sales than the Accord but it has not had high incentives since the redesign. There have been periods of incentives, but nothing like what the old car had. The Impala is popular and if we subtracted fleet sales it would still be one of the best selling midsize sedans. Just stop making excuses and get over it.
"For example, if you deem a magazine's test results as "not credible," that really means it reached a result somehow unfavorable to a GM product.
This will make reading future posts easier, and save us lots of time. "
Not at all, people like you will quote C&D or Edmunds or any other source that you can find (and you spend a lot of time looking) that will criticize a GM product but place no value on any source that doesnt hold GM products in the same dim regard. THAT my friend was my point. What it the point in quoting one source if you are going to regard what other dissenting reviewers have said?
"That's why I referred to the LaCrosse, Cobalt, G6 and Aura, which, the last time I checked, debuted considerably after 1997. "
So you are saying all of those cars are crap and are worst in class? Just asking. If you consider the Aura to be an example of a poor GM product that you are even farther removed from reality than I first thought.
"If we define "public" as the purchasing managers of Hertz, Alamo and Avis, you have a point. "
What % of Impala sales go to daily rental fleets? I'm asking you your own question. If you are going to continue to make that claim lets see some proof that most or a large % of Impala sales go to rental companies. Your argument is that retail customers do not by the Impala and I think you should back it up.
"The Cobalt, LaCrosse and G6 were "also rans" from the moment they hit the market. "
That is a lie. Since you like to quote C&D so much why dont you quote their Road Test of the Cobalt in 2004. They liked the car a lot and said it was one of the most refined small cars on the market. Do you even check this stuff before you type? I guess not. The G6 generally got good reviews but most said it needed more power since it debuted with only a 201hp engine. It got more power the next year. Again if you go back to C&D's road test of the G6 when it was new their complaints were about power and the electronic steering. They actually liked the interior quality and design and the exterior design. Since you are the master of research I would've thought this would be known to you already.
"Nope. Older plants building the same product should be well-versed in what needs to be done to get the product out the door.
Another lie. Older plants are larger, have more workers and are not flexible. Newer plants (like the Cadillac plant) are laid out to run more efficiently with less workers and thus its easier to reduce production times in a new plant. This is just common sense.
"I said that GM makes little, if any, money, on its more fuel-efficient models. It will be hurt more by a rise in gas prices than many other companies. "
Other than Toyota and Honda who are you talking about? Nissan, Ford, Chrysler, VW and Hyundai are no better off than GM when it comes to fuel efficient offerings.
3.05 is what passes for "performance" gearing at Buick. Who let that 3.69 in there?
*** Heh. GM has a few wolves in amongst the sheep. :P
But seriosly, the LaCrosse CXS and Lucerne CXS are fantastic cars. If you look at the sales data, most of that drop is loss in fleet sales, which GM is trying to get out of as quickly as they can. They don't make any real profit doing it and it hurts resale values as well as sucks up production. Mercedes and other manufacturers figured this out a long time ago. So while the sales may appear down, GM is dong a lot of belt-tightening as well to compensate.
Ford? Shoot, Ford is gong nowhere - I give them 5-7 years before they are sold and gutted like Chrysler is going to be. (Honestly, I expect Mopar and Jeep to survive - the other lines are going bye-bye) Well, maybe a few commercial diesel trucks.
They just need to make the CXS versions the normal ones for 2008. Drop the 3800 entirely.
go rive a LaCrosse CXS. Other than it being FWD, it's a Cadillac CTS or close to it. Just with automatic and a family sedan interior. Kind of how the Lecerne CXS is a working man's DTS(and at 5-7K less, a steal in that light)
LaCrosse, with the 3.6 V6 and stability control, selling for under $24K, may work. Adding a V8 for 2008 model year, I don't know. The V6 has all the power the LaCrosse can handle, and would keep the front end lighter, I would think. Heck, FWD are so nose heavy to begin with, and now they are adding V8s. Does the Super get an aluminum V8, and how does the weight compare. Somehow I just can't imagine LaCrosse buyers as being in need for speed. Been awhile since the days of the Grand National. Wasn't that the last youthful, or sorta youthful, stab at making Buicks hip? In the past, I would say the V8 was always the smoothest way to go. But those were the days of rougher V6 engines, and the power was to the rear. Loren
Nahhh, the CTS Art & Science and is something different, and RWD. The LaCrosse has a nice flowing, 90's looking, good looks about her, with the FWD. I agree, dump the base models, and then lower the price on the top one, as it becomes the standard. Buick should be near Cadillac quality. How about Buicks as the FWD cars, as Cadillac goes all RWD, so those in snow country have some cars to buy? The Lucerne, good ol' Lucy, are the same as the DTS, so go by DTS. Loren
Since you are looking at numbers why dont you compare the Lucerne's sales to the Avalon and Montego which are two of its competitors. You say sales never got off the ground, compared to what? I just dont understand you people. If the Lucerne is outselling its best competitor (Avalon) it makes no sense to say its a flop.
Secondly, G6 sales were up last month an accord sales are down so far this year. You are definitely looking at the numbers, but you still are making incorrect assumptions. How can you say G6 sales have peaked if sale were up significantly LAST month? When the G6 first came out pontiac was lucky to move 7k or 8k cars. The G6 has has several months where its exceeded 10K sales in the last year so I wouldnt say the car has peaked. G6 sales are very close to Sonata sales and the Sonata is very reliant on fleets.
I have NEVER said the Lacrosse was a hit. You keep proving something that I agree with. The car doesnt sell in high numbers and it never has. Lucerne is a different story.
Trying to visualize someone sitting in their LaCrosse with a stick at the stop light. The engine is revving up and up, in anticipation of peeling out to get to the bingo meet. Blow the doors off mini-van driven by the soccer mom!
A Lucy is a good car, if you want a DTS, with sportier look about her. How about a two year old one? Wonder if the price drops like the Caddy? If so, it would make one heck of a great freeway cruiser. Those wanting size and smooth ride, with a different look - this Buick may make perfect sense. As compared to an Avalon for looks, I would say Lucy is the clear winner. The Lucerne could easily be the next LaSalle, in that it could work upstream to be a starter Cadillac. OK, even with the name of Buick, it is not too bad an effort to get Buick back to being that near Caddy status car. Still would not buy new due to resale values on luxury car, and particularly the domestic luxos. Been there, done that! Loren
I can do any numbers you want -- when I get home, I have the April figures. I prefer year-to-date, because a single month isn't the best indicator.
I don't really see the relevance of the Montego though, when the Five Hundred takes the lion's share of the sales of these twins. The Lucerne has no twin in its price class (DTS is a lot more expensive). Lucerne had 19,587 sales in the first quarter, down 11.5% from the prior year. Not exactly setting the world on fire.
One thing I have read about the G6 is that this is becoming the GM midsize car of choice to sell to rental fleets. Someone can correct me, because I don't have access to retail vs. fleet numbers.
Wonder if the price drops like the Caddy? If so, it would make one heck of a great freeway cruiser. Those wanting size and smooth ride, with a different look - this Buick may make perfect sense. ***
Exactly what I am thinking. 18-20K for a low miles, still under warranty CXS. In black of course. My only gripe is that the CXS can't be had with a bench seat up front. The car feels big and open compared to the normal setup. The traction control switch is also on the end of the gear selector in the bench seat models a opposed to a button buried in the console somewhere.
Not at all, people like you will quote C&D or Edmunds or any other source that you can find (and you spend a lot of time looking) that will criticize a GM product but place no value on any source that doesnt hold GM products in the same dim regard.
Care to name a few?
Now you're saying (above) that Edmunds and C&D (and by implication CR) ALWAYS or nearly always give bad reviews to GM cars.
So, your mission is to name some sources that ALWAYS or nearly always give GOOD reviews to GM cars.
"General Motors showed off the 300-mile driving range of its Chevrolet Sequel hydrogen prototype this week, and GM R&D Vice President Larry Burns said the automaker targets 2012 as a date by which fuel-cell vehicles will be in GM showrooms."
Will these be lease only crush them the second the lease is up vehicles or real cars we can buy?
See, all of the manufacturers have a terrible history where electric vehicles are concerned. At least with Toyota I *know* that the cars will be all hybrids.
And still no mention of mainstream hybrids in GM's future... Let's hope the CAFE standards don't get tightened like a vise when the next President comes into office.
"General Motors showed off the 300-mile driving range of its Chevrolet Sequel hydrogen prototype this week, and GM R&D Vice President Larry Burns said the automaker targets 2012 as a date by which fuel-cell vehicles will be in GM showrooms."
GM should focus on hybrids, the Volt, and better gasoline engines. The hydrogen work is a waste of time and money. They should have some scientists that know better.
the first press reviews of the new Vue are beginning to trickle in. I was intrigued that one said the Vue V-6 (3.6) felt "lighter than the RAV4" even though it is hundreds of pounds heavier. I guess they got the handling package right.
With the 3.6, the Vue is within spitting distance of the RAV4 V-6 in most respects, by the numbers, and that's a first in the segment. More than anything, the styling is just so many worlds better than the previous model, I think it will sell a lot better.
But shed a tear...the last Saturn with dent-free polymer panels has already come off the production line. An era has come to an end! ;-)
The new Vue will get a 6-speed auto with the 3.5 V-6 as well as with the 3.6 V-6, which hopefully means that the Aura will get the 6-speed for both V-6s shortly as well.
OTOH, the Aura is not selling as well as they had hoped, off by 1/3 or so. I wonder if that will ramp up as people start to realize there is still a Saturn brand (after a decade of near-death). I am still rooting for Saturn to make the big comeback the press was expecting with the intro of all this new product. While the Aura seems to have stumbled a bit, it is still selling better than the L-cars ever did, and the new Vue will probably sell like hotcakes, as the old one was fairly popular and the new one is a million times better by the looks of it.
And of course, the Outlook is the best-looking of the Lambda triplets, so first-year sales of that one should add up to good numbers too! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It has a 340-mile range, top speed of just under 100 mph. I saw an article last month that confirmed they are still on track for that release date. It will be a lease-only vehicle as the previous Honda EV car was.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
King County Metro Transit announced this morning that it will buy up to 500 new buses, more than half of them hybrid diesel-electric coaches that reduce burning of fossil fuels.
The first order of 22 hybrid buses will arrive in 2008, at a cost of $719,000.
They will be built by New Flyer of America, using a hybrid drive built by General Motors and an engine built by Cummins.
The buses will be purchased, in part, with a sales-tax increase that voters approved last fall to increase bus trips countywide.
Metro said last year that if the Transit Now ballot measure passed, the agency would buy 190 buses in the first two years, and half would be hybrids.
As of last year, Metro operated 214 hybrid buses on its routes.
A hybrid bus operates much like the Toyota Prius and other hybrid automobiles. Petroleum fuel powers the primary engine, and when the vehicle stops, kinetic energy from the rolling wheels is used to recharge the batteries for the electric drive system. The electric motor can propel the vehicle at low speed and assist the diesel engine at higher speeds.
Public consciousness of global warming has increased since then, along with King County Executive Ron Sims' national profile as a green politician. He has reported that hybrids burn 31 percent less fuel than a typical diesel bus.
The new buses would be used in the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel when it reopens this fall and on new bus rapid-transit routes throughout the county.
The 2008 Saturn Vue is one of the more intriguing new vehicles on the market this year for a few reasons – and not because of any innovative technology, advances in safety or mammoth leaps in fuel economy.
With the Vue, you get fairly straightforward hardware: front-mounted four- and six-cylinder engines, front- or all-wheel drive, MacPherson strut front and multi-link rear suspension, seating for five, six airbags, the usual.
What’s compelling, first of all, is how this car got here. Five hundred engineers simultaneously designed and developed the car in Germany, the United States, and Korea. It will be built in multiple plants, and will be sold around the world as the Opel Antara or as-yet unnamed Chevrolets, Daewoos and Holdens. It could be the first truly global General Motors product, at least as far as mainstream products go.
Secondly, even without driving this vehicle it is obvious this is a gargantuan improvement over the Vue it replaces, the boxy, plastic-paneled small SUV that took seemingly forever to complete its gestation period. By the time the first Vue arrived in late 2001 (as an ’02 model), the market was awash in small utes with more stylish wrappers, better interiors and stronger powertrains.
In the 2008 Vue, the plastic sides and cavernous panel gaps are gone, replaced by stylish sheetmetal. Inside, we’re happy to note that interior quality incorporated into the Vue in recent years hasn’t been lost in the transition. Under the hood, buyers get a choice of the top-of-the-line 3.6-liter, 257-hp, 248-lb-ft V6, a 3.5-liter, 222-hp, 219-lb-ft V6, or a base 2.4-liter, 169-hp, 161-lb-ft inline four. The four comes with a four-speed automatic transmission, while the V6s are mated to a six-speed automatic. The performance Red Line version (with the 3.6-liter V6) arrives this fall, followed by two Green Line hybrid options by year end.
Our test model, a nearly loaded all-wheel-drive Vue XR with the 3.6-liter V6 priced at $31,115, was a far better driver than the model it replaces, and definitely on par with the latest Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V. The Vue felt lighter than the last RAV4 we drove, and overall, more handsome to the eye. We actually noticed people ogling and pointing as we drove by. The last time that happened in a Saturn was when the first sedans rolled out of Spring Hill back in 1990.
When did they sneak in all those SUVs into the Buick line? Guess I was sleeping, or never saw an ad for one. By gosh, GM and SUV are synonymous. Even the Buick, which I think of as a car line, had three of those SUVs, or was it two SUVs and a Van. Now another one is on the way. Seems that GM is two thirds SUV these days. That is one major bet at the table. So far, so good.
New Saturn Vue looks promising. Yet another SUV, for all you SUV fans. Hey, whatever works. Looks like Saturn will be first to have the world cars, followed by Pontiac with its Aussie car line. Will be good to see more cars, both in Saturn and in Pontiac looking forward. Sorry, the G6 is not too exciting. The Solstice is a nicely sculptured car. A work in progress. Loren
Look - Honda has another EV. Oh, wait - lease only, can't possibly buy even if you are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet and price is no object.
When the lease is up - off to the crusher.
That's not making a real vehicle - it's a marketing gimmick as usual.
And as for GM, I'll believe it when I see it. Let's jsut hope the Fit Hybrid doesn't come out first, or the Corolla Hybrid, because GM will be looking at a 20-22K hybrid sedan that's a worse car AND more expensive than the competition's offerings.
The Hybrid Fit will get about 60mpg, btw. Cost will be about 2K more than the current models. GM is in serious trouble at this rate.
"The Lucerne has no twin in its price class (DTS is a lot more expensive). Lucerne had 19,587 sales in the first quarter, down 11.5% from the prior year. Not exactly setting the world on fire. "
Read what I wrote, I asked you to compare the Lucerne's sales to the Avalon. For numerous reasons the large car segment isnt all that hot right now and no large cars in this class are setting sales records.
We do not have much retail vs fleet sale info but GM has been cutting fleet sales which would obviously apply to the G6. I know I see G6s all the time and most are V6 or GT models. Few have Enterprise stickers on the back.
Persistent, aren't you? I've already posted Lucerne and Avalon sales for the first quarter, just not in the same post.
I don't feel like rehashing what I've said before nor going out to the car to get the relevant copy of Ward's Automotive Reports. But I do recall the Lucerne had more sales than the Avalon. Not surprising that large car sales are going down -- $3 gas will do that.
My '07 G6 sedan rental out of Las Vegas in March was a V6, but not a GT. It was an Alamo rental. A month or so ago in this forum, I wrote a "comparison test" between this G6 and my Camrys.
Lucerne April 2007 5,672 April 2006 6,998 2007 YTD 25,259 2006 YTD 29,122
Avalon April 2007 5,791 April 2006 8,239 2007 YTD 25,426 2006 YTD 30,782
We do not have much retail vs fleet sale info but GM has been cutting fleet sales which would obviously apply to the G6.
I wouldn't assume that without some numbers to back it up. Pontiac was at 45% fleet sales a few months ago. Even if we presume that the Torrent, Vibe, Grand Prix, and G5 were all fleet-only, that still isn't enough volume to fill out that 45% without dipping into the G6 volume.
>The hydrogen work is a waste of time and money. They should have some scientists that know better.
What is the basis for your conclusion? Are you a scientist specializing in that area?
I have a degree in Chemistry and have worked for over ten years in the environmental area.
It would be wonderful if hydrogen was the answer. It burns very cleanly, giving off only water. I believe that the storage and distribution problems can be solved (although at a substantial cost for distribution).
The biggest issue that many people fail to realize is that hydrogen is not available as a raw element just ready to use as a fuel. Thermodynamically, the actual energy that comes from the use of the hydrogen must be put into water or other material to generate the hydrogen fuel, where it can then be used in autos, etc. The energy needed to make the hydrogen is greater than the energy that you will get out, since no conversion process is 100% efficient. In this sense, hydrogen is really a energy storage medium rather than an energy source.
So how do you get the energy to make hydrogen?:
electricity - this works with greatest conversion efficiency, but how do you produce the electricity? Another conversion process from fossil fuels, coal? More inefficiency, just use those fuels directly instead of converting from one storage mechanism to the other, causing big losses in efficiency. Solar? This needs substantial surface area to gather any amount of energy sufficient to make a large dent. Might as well just use solar>electric by itself without yet another energy conversion to hydrogen(which is why I mentioned the Volt)
nuclear - great idea, but not yet politically acceptable enough. Once gas is $25/gallon this might change.
solar, wind - possible, but require very large areas for collection to make any conceivable dent in our gasoline usage
I don't see any easy answers that produce enough to put a significant amount of energy (say, >10%) into production of hydrogen, relative to the amount of energy we consume from gasoline fuels. It might be fine for niche uses.
Maybe there's a magic bullet, but after all these years of people talking about hydrogen, a lot of smart minds still don't have the answer.
So my comment on GMs scientists and a hydrogen fuel-cell car - that's nice as a demonstrator technology, but it appears farfetched to think that this is a technology that is going to magically leapfrog hybrids or work on electrical plug-in cars. The real problem is the fuel source, not the cars themselves.
"Let's jsut hope the Fit Hybrid doesn't come out first, or the Corolla Hybrid, because GM will be looking at a 20-22K hybrid sedan that's a worse car AND more expensive than the competition's offerings."
Where did you buy your crystal ball at? Mine must be broken, because it won't tell me whether one future model of car from brandX is better than another from brandY. Maybe I can buy mine where you bought yours.
Pontiacs second best selling car is the Grand Prix and guess where a whole lot of them end up? Thats right, rental agencies. Since the GP is Pontiac's 2nd best seller you can be sure the GP counts for a significant % of Pontiac's fleet mix. Unless you have data to show that 30% or 40% of G6s are rentals I see no reason why we are to believe such an assertion. I know most of the G6s I see are not rentals. Any GT, Coupe, GTP or Convertible I see is most definitely a retail sale and a good portion of the V6 or base models are probably retail.
Also when deriding fleet sales remember that rental agency fleet sales are the bad sales. Automakers also sell cars to businesses and governments and as far as I know we rarely see a breakdown of company vs rental agency fleet sales.
Good, because the Ranier is a leftover Oldsmobile Bravada that's as fresh as last week's TV dinner, the Rendezvous is the Aztek's slightly less ugly sister, and the Terazza has absolutely no reason to exist except as a sick joke at a Buick fan's expense.
Comments
I like the transition treatment between the bed and the cab better than the Ridgeline - it's hard to tell from the photo if the liftover height will be as tall as the Ridgeline and most other pickups these days but it looks like a stepladder may be a useful option.
Ha! When was the last time GM offered a manual in a FWD car bigger than a Cobalt? 1985?
I am saying that those promised new GM vehicles that were supposed to halt market share erosion, boost sales, restore profits, cut fleet sales, etc., have disappointed in the past. Doesn't matter how good the mileage is they don't sell. And it also doesn't matter how good the mileage is if the vehicle is second-rate in other areas.
1487: You are an expert on GM's past, but I want you to explain to me how GM is less prepared for high gas prices than Ford, Nissan, Chrysler, MB, VW, etc. Sure Toyota and Honda are launching small cars, but the rest of the industry- especially the Germans, are busy launching huge SUVs and powerful V8, V10 and V12 cars.
GM is less prepared than Toyota and Honda because it does not make much (if any) money on high-mileage vehicles, while those manufacturers do. If gas hits $4 a gallon, GM's biggest profit makers sit on the lot, and its most fuel-efficient vehicles, which generate little, if any, profit, increase in sales.
As for the Germans - yes, you are correct, they are launching more gas guzzlers. But those vehicles aren't their main (or only) source of profits. If the Mercedes or BMW V-12s flop, it results in egg on the parent company's face. If GM's big SUVs and pickups don't sell, GM is in big trouble.
1487: Why do you think GM doesnt make money on cars? They dont make money because their cost structure makes it hard to make money on something that sells for $20k or less. It has nothing to do with the cars being "second rate".
Because they are second-rate compared to the competition (with few exceptions), they cannot command higher prices. They only move with hefty rebates, or large sales to fleet customers. This hurts profit margins, and reduces resale value. It also erodes brand image.
1487: BTW, Second rate compared to what?
Honda Accord and Civic, for starters. The Mazda3 and 6, the VW Passat, even some versions of the Ford Fusion.
1487: GM's worst cars are its oldest cars- Malibu, Lacrosse and Cobalt. Even those cars are at least as good as what you can get from Ford, Chrysler or Hyundai.
The LaCrosse and Cobalt were going to spearhead GM's turnaround just 2-3 years ago, and now they already among GM's worst, and only as good as the competition from Ford, Chrysler and Hyundai, which isn't much of a compliment.
And I doubt that most people view the Ford Fusion as being inferior to the Malibu or LaCrosse. Even the Cobalt has only equalled the much older Focus in the tests I've seen.
1487: The Aura, Impala, Lucerne, 2008 CTS and 2008 Malibu are in no way 2nd rate.
The 2008 Malibu and CTS aren't here yet, although they do look promising. The Impala is an underwhelming makeover of a model that wasn't all that hot in the first place. The Aura is a good car, as is the Lucerne, but I recall saying that there were some exceptions in the lineup.
1487: And dont even say GM loses money on cars due to lack of efficiency because studies show GM plants are near the top in hours per vehicle.
Those surveys show that SOME GM plants are near the top, and they are primarily old plants that have produced the same vehicles for years, although, if I recall correctly, the new Lansing plant that produces the Sigma-based Cadillacs does do well.
Plus, not enough GM plants are "flexible" in the manner that Honda and Toyota plants are (i.e., they can't easily switch production of different models).
1487: I find it interesting that the people who dont want to hear about unreleased GM products will be quick to say "just wait until the 2008 Accord comes out!" when people note that the Accord is inferior to several midsize offerings on the market now.
None of the offerings from GM, at least based on Car & Driver and Consumer Reports, two of the most credible testers.
I don't know what the 2008 model will bring, although, based on spy shots, the styling isn't very attractive.
GM stuck a 3.70 in the Lacrosse? :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
Another lie. Not every GM model that has been introduced recently has been a flop as you suggest. They have overpromised on some models such as the 2004 Malibu, but other models like the HHR, Impala, G6, Lucerne, CTS, Equinox, Vette, etc. have done well. GM could use more hits, but they have generated some in recent years contrary to your comments. Also, I would love to know how you can predict that GM's future products wont sell regardless of fuel economy. I find that to be an interesting prediction because most bashers say that GM's current sales woes ars due to lack of efficient models. Now you are telling us that their new models with good mileage still wont sell because they are GM made. Interesting. You are extremely biased and extremely uninformed. You are making 2007 comments with a knowledge base of 1997 GM products which explains a lot about why you are off base so often. Even skeptics such as Edmunds and C&D have acknowledged that its not business as usual at GM. Read C&D's online first drive of the Vue, they love the interior quality and styling.
"GM is less prepared than Toyota and Honda because it does not make much (if any) money on high-mileage vehicles, while those manufacturers do."
How can you prove that GM cant and wont make money on the Tahoe hybrid or the Aura/Malibu hybrid? Again, you dont know what you are talking about. GM doesnt make money on SMALL cars like the Cobalt but that doesnt mean they can't make money on hybrid SUVs or cars like Vue, Aura, Tahoe/Yukon, etc. I would imagine that the Tahoe hybrid is going to be well over $35k when it goes on sale and I would bet they will make a profit on that.
"The 2008 Malibu and CTS aren't here yet, although they do look promising. The Impala is an underwhelming makeover of a model that wasn't all that hot in the first place."
The Impala is so underwhelming that its the 3rd best selling car in the country. I agree with you 100%. So underwhelming that it outsells the Fusion, 6, Sonata, 500, and Altima. Lets just say its underwhelming in YOUR opinion because the public likes the car. I find the camry underwhelming but the public strongly disagrees.
"The LaCrosse and Cobalt were going to spearhead GM's turnaround just 2-3 years ago, and now they already among GM's worst, and only as good as the competition from Ford, Chrysler and Hyundai, which isn't much of a compliment. "
They are GM's 2nd oldest sedans after CTS so it would be normal for them to be in need of updates. As time goes on models become also rans, thats the way the industry works and thats why the Accord is lagging three of its competitors as we speak. BTW, I would love for you to find a quote where someone from GM said the Cobalt was going to save the company.
"Those surveys show that SOME GM plants are near the top, and they are primarily old plants that have produced the same vehicles for years, although, if I recall correctly, the new Lansing plant that produces the Sigma-based Cadillacs does do well. "
Who cares how old they are? Your insult doesnt even make sense. Older plants SHOULD be less likely to be competitive because of their layouts, # of workers and # of robots. The fact that the Oshawa plant and others are near the top in productivity in spite of being old is a credit to GM. You say these plants have been making the "Same" products for years but that is irrelevant because retooling is usually required when a model changes over and even it wasnt I dont see how this dampens the fact that GM can make a car as fast as its competitors.
"but I recall saying that there were some exceptions in the lineup. "
There are more exceptions than bad cars in the lineup. Thats the problem with your inaccurate generalizations. The only cars GM makes that I would say need an update ASAP are the cobalt, Lacrosse, CTS, GP and Malibu. All but the cobalt are getting replaced or updated. The vette, Aura, Impala, Lucerne/DTS, G6, XLR and STS are all nice cars that compete well in their segments.
"Plus, not enough GM plants are "flexible" in the manner that Honda and Toyota plants are (i.e., they can't easily switch production of different models). "
I know already, but what does that have to do with GM's super efficient plants? GM has less flexible plants because it has fewer new US plants than Toyota/Honda.
"None of the offerings from GM, at least based on Car & Driver and Consumer Reports, two of the most credible testers. "
LOL! I love that, the two sources that bash GM the most are the most credible. MT, Edmunds nor R&T have compared the Accord to the Aura or G6 GTP and you are ready to announce there is an industry consensus that the Accord is light years ahead of anything GM offers. Seeing as though the Camry was rated higher than the Accord by Edmunds and Motorweek, AW and Automobile indicated they like the Aura more than Camry/Accord I would say your assumption shouldnt be taken as fact.
"I don't know what the 2008 model will bring, although, based on spy shots, the styling isn't very attractive. "
You are finally right about something.
See thats the thing about import lovers, they are quick to use sales as a gauge of the competence of a model as long as you're talking domestic products. They would never use such criteria to judge import flops such as the RL, Ridgeline, Avalon, Accord Hybrid, Acura CL, etc.
LaCrosse: 10,603, down 35.2% from prior year period
RL: 1547, down 40.5%
Ridgeline: 11,009, down 19.3%
Avalon: 19,635, down 12.9%
Accord Hybrid: no separate breakout available
Accord (all models): 92,590, up 20.3%
CL: out of production since 2005?
All Chevy cars: 187,034, down 3.3% (only Impala and Aveo are up, 25.3% and 44.1% respectively).
All Buick cars: 30,258, down 24.3% (no nameplates are up)
All Pontiac cars: 70,995, down 12.9% (no nameplates are up)
All Saturn cars: 28,820, up 28.5% (Aura is new, Ion is down)
All Toyota cars: 301,501, up 16.7% (all nameplates up except Avalon, Scion xA/xB, and discontinued Celica)
All Honda cars: 194,550, up 2.5% (Accord and Fit up, Civic and S2000 down)
All Nissan cars: 134,902, up 17.3% (Versa new, Altima up, Sentra, Maxima, and 350Z down).
One interesting tidbit: someone said a while back that the LaCrosse would eventually trounce the Chrysler 300. Never happened. Even now:
300: 30,376, down 22.8%
I can do trucks too. Just the facts on the ground, no hyperbole, no trying to parse magazine comparo test results.
My quick thoughts:
Saturn is doing very well. Too bad they don't have more dealers. I dont' think their numbers being up so much will offset the other divisions being down - are they close to the size of Buick?
Buick - Oh my! Where did everyone go?
Impala is very popular. Pretty hard to say that a car whose sales are up 25% isn't a nice enough car; particularly noting the drop in fleet sales by Chevrolet.
The G6 might be popular but not enough to help Pontiac
Honda is doing OK, but nothing special - hmmm I liked the new Accord much more than the new Camry, but I've always prefered Honda to Toyota.
Toyota is on a roll. Say what you will about them, they're selling tons of cars.
I said that GM makes little, if any, money, on its more fuel-efficient models. It will be hurt more by a rise in gas prices than many other companies.
1487: You are making 2007 comments with a knowledge base of 1997 GM products which explains a lot about why you are off base so often.
That's why I referred to the LaCrosse, Cobalt, G6 and Aura, which, the last time I checked, debuted considerably after 1997.
1487: The Impala is so underwhelming that its the 3rd best selling car in the country. I agree with you 100%. So underwhelming that it outsells the Fusion, 6, Sonata, 500, and Altima.
Yep, that's what fleet sales and incentives will do for a car.
Here's an assignment:
1. Check out the percentage of fleet sales (compared to total sales) for the Impala. Do the same for the Accord.
2. Check out the level of incentives needed to move both models
Get back to me with your results, and we'll go from there.
1487: Lets just say its underwhelming in YOUR opinion because the public likes the car.
If we define "public" as the purchasing managers of Hertz, Alamo and Avis, you have a point.
1487: As time goes on models become also rans, thats the way the industry works and thats why the Accord is lagging three of its competitors as we speak.
The Cobalt, LaCrosse and G6 were "also rans" from the moment they hit the market.
1487: Who cares how old they are? Your insult doesnt even make sense.
It's not an insult; it's a fact.
1487: Older plants SHOULD be less likely to be competitive because of their layouts, # of workers and # of robots. The fact that the Oshawa plant and others are near the top in productivity in spite of being old is a credit to GM.
Nope. Older plants building the same product should be well-versed in what needs to be done to get the product out the door.
1487: LOL! I love that, the two sources that bash GM the most are the most credible.
We need a dictionary for what I call "1487Speak."
For example, if you deem a magazine's test results as "not credible," that really means it reached a result somehow unfavorable to a GM product.
This will make reading future posts easier, and save us lots of time.
The G6 may be popular, but I don't see many around here. The sporty coupe, which is the best looking one, the rarest of finds on the road around here.
Impala was a most impressive job of dressing a car up. Hats off to the team which did the magic. This is a car which is probably selling for those in need of size and price. Add in the new longer warranty, better interior and some chrome on the outside, and sales increased. It fills a need, it is what it is. The New Impala should be interesting, as it more closely will compete with new designs, and RWD cars, like the Chrysler 300. It should be a success, if the gas mileage stays as good enough. Hopefully the RWD will not contribute to weight gains.
Thanks for the statistics "210Delray"
Loren
The point was simply to show some of the numbers, which often tell the story better than accusations hurled back and forth. The LaCrosse never got off the ground, and neither did the Lucerne, even though I think the latter is a very nice effort on GM's part. The LaCrosse always struck me as too much of an ovoid Taurus lookalike, with a little prior-gen Lexus GS thrown in. I will grant you the interior is nice.
The Cobalt got some traction in its second year, but is already fading. Just think what a hit this car could have been if GM had introduced it in 2001, or better yet, in 1995 when it refreshed the then-13-year-old Cavalier. Looks like the Pontiac G6 is already peaking, despite its "first ever" billing, Oprah's giveaway, and the coupe/convertible intros. Yet the Accord, even in its 5th and last year of the current design, is still increasing strongly in sales (I realize Honda is adding incentives to move this model, but still...)
It would be nice if there were a ready source of retail vs. fleet sales numbers -- that would clarify the situation a lot better.
GM nor Honda break out fleet sales by model. You should know that already. The Impala has higher fleet sales than the Accord but it has not had high incentives since the redesign. There have been periods of incentives, but nothing like what the old car had. The Impala is popular and if we subtracted fleet sales it would still be one of the best selling midsize sedans. Just stop making excuses and get over it.
"For example, if you deem a magazine's test results as "not credible," that really means it reached a result somehow unfavorable to a GM product.
This will make reading future posts easier, and save us lots of time. "
Not at all, people like you will quote C&D or Edmunds or any other source that you can find (and you spend a lot of time looking) that will criticize a GM product but place no value on any source that doesnt hold GM products in the same dim regard. THAT my friend was my point. What it the point in quoting one source if you are going to regard what other dissenting reviewers have said?
"That's why I referred to the LaCrosse, Cobalt, G6 and Aura, which, the last time I checked, debuted considerably after 1997. "
So you are saying all of those cars are crap and are worst in class? Just asking. If you consider the Aura to be an example of a poor GM product that you are even farther removed from reality than I first thought.
"If we define "public" as the purchasing managers of Hertz, Alamo and Avis, you have a point. "
What % of Impala sales go to daily rental fleets? I'm asking you your own question. If you are going to continue to make that claim lets see some proof that most or a large % of Impala sales go to rental companies. Your argument is that retail customers do not by the Impala and I think you should back it up.
"The Cobalt, LaCrosse and G6 were "also rans" from the moment they hit the market. "
That is a lie. Since you like to quote C&D so much why dont you quote their Road Test of the Cobalt in 2004. They liked the car a lot and said it was one of the most refined small cars on the market. Do you even check this stuff before you type? I guess not. The G6 generally got good reviews but most said it needed more power since it debuted with only a 201hp engine. It got more power the next year. Again if you go back to C&D's road test of the G6 when it was new their complaints were about power and the electronic steering. They actually liked the interior quality and design and the exterior design. Since you are the master of research I would've thought this would be known to you already.
"Nope. Older plants building the same product should be well-versed in what needs to be done to get the product out the door.
Another lie. Older plants are larger, have more workers and are not flexible. Newer plants (like the Cadillac plant) are laid out to run more efficiently with less workers and thus its easier to reduce production times in a new plant. This is just common sense.
"I said that GM makes little, if any, money, on its more fuel-efficient models. It will be hurt more by a rise in gas prices than many other companies. "
Other than Toyota and Honda who are you talking about? Nissan, Ford, Chrysler, VW and Hyundai are no better off than GM when it comes to fuel efficient offerings.
***
Heh. GM has a few wolves in amongst the sheep. :P
But seriosly, the LaCrosse CXS and Lucerne CXS are fantastic cars. If you look at the sales data, most of that drop is loss in fleet sales, which GM is trying to get out of as quickly as they can. They don't make any real profit doing it and it hurts resale values as well as sucks up production. Mercedes and other manufacturers figured this out a long time ago. So while the sales may appear down, GM is dong a lot of belt-tightening as well to compensate.
Ford? Shoot, Ford is gong nowhere - I give them 5-7 years before they are sold and gutted like Chrysler is going to be. (Honestly, I expect Mopar and Jeep to survive - the other lines are going bye-bye) Well, maybe a few commercial diesel trucks.
They just need to make the CXS versions the normal ones for 2008. Drop the 3800 entirely.
go rive a LaCrosse CXS. Other than it being FWD, it's a Cadillac CTS or close to it. Just with automatic and a family sedan interior. Kind of how the Lecerne CXS is a working man's DTS(and at 5-7K less, a steal in that light)
Loren
Loren
Secondly, G6 sales were up last month an accord sales are down so far this year. You are definitely looking at the numbers, but you still are making incorrect assumptions. How can you say G6 sales have peaked if sale were up significantly LAST month? When the G6 first came out pontiac was lucky to move 7k or 8k cars. The G6 has has several months where its exceeded 10K sales in the last year so I wouldnt say the car has peaked. G6 sales are very close to Sonata sales and the Sonata is very reliant on fleets.
I have NEVER said the Lacrosse was a hit. You keep proving something that I agree with. The car doesnt sell in high numbers and it never has. Lucerne is a different story.
Just kidding.
Loren
Loren
I don't really see the relevance of the Montego though, when the Five Hundred takes the lion's share of the sales of these twins. The Lucerne has no twin in its price class (DTS is a lot more expensive). Lucerne had 19,587 sales in the first quarter, down 11.5% from the prior year. Not exactly setting the world on fire.
One thing I have read about the G6 is that this is becoming the GM midsize car of choice to sell to rental fleets. Someone can correct me, because I don't have access to retail vs. fleet numbers.
***
Exactly what I am thinking. 18-20K for a low miles, still under warranty CXS. In black of course. My only gripe is that the CXS can't be had with a bench seat up front. The car feels big and open compared to the normal setup. The traction control switch is also on the end of the gear selector in the bench seat models a opposed to a button buried in the console somewhere.
Care to name a few?
Now you're saying (above) that Edmunds and C&D (and by implication CR) ALWAYS or nearly always give bad reviews to GM cars.
So, your mission is to name some sources that ALWAYS or nearly always give GOOD reviews to GM cars.
Can you give an account of your drive of the new 'Bu? Driving, interior/exterior, overall impressions? Likes and dislikes?
Fuel Cells in Dealerships by 2012, Says GM (Inside Line)
See, all of the manufacturers have a terrible history where electric vehicles are concerned. At least with Toyota I *know* that the cars will be all hybrids.
And still no mention of mainstream hybrids in GM's future... Let's hope the CAFE standards don't get tightened like a vise when the next President comes into office.
GM should focus on hybrids, the Volt, and better gasoline engines. The hydrogen work is a waste of time and money. They should have some scientists that know better.
What is the basis for your conclusion? Are you a scientist specializing in that area?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You don't consider the 2 mode hybrid to be mainstream?
With the 3.6, the Vue is within spitting distance of the RAV4 V-6 in most respects, by the numbers, and that's a first in the segment. More than anything, the styling is just so many worlds better than the previous model, I think it will sell a lot better.
But shed a tear...the last Saturn with dent-free polymer panels has already come off the production line. An era has come to an end! ;-)
The new Vue will get a 6-speed auto with the 3.5 V-6 as well as with the 3.6 V-6, which hopefully means that the Aura will get the 6-speed for both V-6s shortly as well.
OTOH, the Aura is not selling as well as they had hoped, off by 1/3 or so. I wonder if that will ramp up as people start to realize there is still a Saturn brand (after a decade of near-death). I am still rooting for Saturn to make the big comeback the press was expecting with the intro of all this new product. While the Aura seems to have stumbled a bit, it is still selling better than the L-cars ever did, and the new Vue will probably sell like hotcakes, as the old one was fairly popular and the new one is a million times better by the looks of it.
And of course, the Outlook is the best-looking of the Lambda triplets, so first-year sales of that one should add up to good numbers too! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060925FCXConcept/
It has a 340-mile range, top speed of just under 100 mph. I saw an article last month that confirmed they are still on track for that release date. It will be a lease-only vehicle as the previous Honda EV car was.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
new buses, more than half of them hybrid diesel-electric coaches that
reduce burning of fossil fuels.
The first order of 22 hybrid buses will arrive in 2008, at a cost of
$719,000.
They will be built by New Flyer of America, using a hybrid drive built by
General Motors and an engine built by Cummins.
The buses will be purchased, in part, with a sales-tax increase that voters
approved last fall to increase bus trips countywide.
Metro said last year that if the Transit Now ballot measure passed, the
agency would buy 190 buses in the first two years, and half would be
hybrids.
As of last year, Metro operated 214 hybrid buses on its routes.
A hybrid bus operates much like the Toyota Prius and other hybrid
automobiles. Petroleum fuel powers the primary engine, and when the vehicle
stops, kinetic energy from the rolling wheels is used to recharge the
batteries for the electric drive system. The electric motor can propel the
vehicle at low speed and assist the diesel engine at higher speeds.
Public consciousness of global warming has increased since then, along with
King County Executive Ron Sims' national profile as a green politician. He
has reported that hybrids burn 31 percent less fuel than a typical diesel
bus.
The new buses would be used in the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel when it
reopens this fall and on new bus rapid-transit routes throughout the
county.
market this year for a few reasons – and not because of any innovative
technology, advances in safety or mammoth leaps in fuel economy.
With the Vue, you get fairly straightforward hardware: front-mounted four-
and six-cylinder engines, front- or all-wheel drive, MacPherson strut front
and multi-link rear suspension, seating for five, six airbags, the usual.
What’s compelling, first of all, is how this car got here. Five hundred
engineers simultaneously designed and developed the car in Germany, the
United States, and Korea. It will be built in multiple plants, and will be
sold around the world as the Opel Antara or as-yet unnamed Chevrolets,
Daewoos and Holdens. It could be the first truly global General Motors
product, at least as far as mainstream products go.
Secondly, even without driving this vehicle it is obvious this is a
gargantuan improvement over the Vue it replaces, the boxy, plastic-paneled
small SUV that took seemingly forever to complete its gestation period. By
the time the first Vue arrived in late 2001 (as an ’02 model), the market
was awash in small utes with more stylish wrappers, better interiors and
stronger powertrains.
In the 2008 Vue, the plastic sides and cavernous panel gaps are gone,
replaced by stylish sheetmetal. Inside, we’re happy to note that interior
quality incorporated into the Vue in recent years hasn’t been lost in the
transition. Under the hood, buyers get a choice of the top-of-the-line
3.6-liter, 257-hp, 248-lb-ft V6, a 3.5-liter, 222-hp, 219-lb-ft V6, or a
base 2.4-liter, 169-hp, 161-lb-ft inline four. The four comes with a
four-speed automatic transmission, while the V6s are mated to a six-speed
automatic. The performance Red Line version (with the 3.6-liter V6) arrives
this fall, followed by two Green Line hybrid options by year end.
Our test model, a nearly loaded all-wheel-drive Vue XR with the 3.6-liter
V6 priced at $31,115, was a far better driver than the model it replaces,
and definitely on par with the latest Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V. The Vue
felt lighter than the last RAV4 we drove, and overall, more handsome to the
eye. We actually noticed people ogling and pointing as we drove by. The
last time that happened in a Saturn was when the first sedans rolled out of
Spring Hill back in 1990.
New Saturn Vue looks promising. Yet another SUV, for all you SUV fans. Hey, whatever works. Looks like Saturn will be first to have the world cars, followed by Pontiac with its Aussie car line. Will be good to see more cars, both in Saturn and in Pontiac looking forward. Sorry, the G6 is not too exciting. The Solstice is a nicely sculptured car. A work in progress.
Loren
I'd expect them to pretty nice cars, though.
Look - Honda has another EV. Oh, wait - lease only, can't possibly buy even if you are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet and price is no object.
When the lease is up - off to the crusher.
That's not making a real vehicle - it's a marketing gimmick as usual.
And as for GM, I'll believe it when I see it. Let's jsut hope the Fit Hybrid doesn't come out first, or the Corolla Hybrid, because GM will be looking at a 20-22K hybrid sedan that's a worse car AND more expensive than the competition's offerings.
The Hybrid Fit will get about 60mpg, btw. Cost will be about 2K more than the current models. GM is in serious trouble at this rate.
You're banished and regulated to drive a Chevy Vega... :P
Read what I wrote, I asked you to compare the Lucerne's sales to the Avalon. For numerous reasons the large car segment isnt all that hot right now and no large cars in this class are setting sales records.
We do not have much retail vs fleet sale info but GM has been cutting fleet sales which would obviously apply to the G6. I know I see G6s all the time and most are V6 or GT models. Few have Enterprise stickers on the back.
Reports should be out in 6 months from the press.
I don't feel like rehashing what I've said before nor going out to the car to get the relevant copy of Ward's Automotive Reports. But I do recall the Lucerne had more sales than the Avalon. Not surprising that large car sales are going down -- $3 gas will do that.
My '07 G6 sedan rental out of Las Vegas in March was a V6, but not a GT. It was an Alamo rental. A month or so ago in this forum, I wrote a "comparison test" between this G6 and my Camrys.
April 2007 5,672
April 2006 6,998
2007 YTD 25,259
2006 YTD 29,122
Avalon
April 2007 5,791
April 2006 8,239
2007 YTD 25,426
2006 YTD 30,782
We do not have much retail vs fleet sale info but GM has been cutting fleet sales which would obviously apply to the G6.
I wouldn't assume that without some numbers to back it up. Pontiac was at 45% fleet sales a few months ago. Even if we presume that the Torrent, Vibe, Grand Prix, and G5 were all fleet-only, that still isn't enough volume to fill out that 45% without dipping into the G6 volume.
Loren
What is the basis for your conclusion? Are you a scientist specializing in that area?
I have a degree in Chemistry and have worked for over ten years in the environmental area.
It would be wonderful if hydrogen was the answer. It burns very cleanly, giving off only water. I believe that the storage and distribution problems can be solved (although at a substantial cost for distribution).
The biggest issue that many people fail to realize is that hydrogen is not available as a raw element just ready to use as a fuel. Thermodynamically, the actual energy that comes from the use of the hydrogen must be put into water or other material to generate the hydrogen fuel, where it can then be used in autos, etc. The energy needed to make the hydrogen is greater than the energy that you will get out, since no conversion process is 100% efficient. In this sense, hydrogen is really a energy storage medium rather than an energy source.
So how do you get the energy to make hydrogen?:
electricity - this works with greatest conversion efficiency, but how do you produce the electricity? Another conversion process from fossil fuels, coal? More inefficiency, just use those fuels directly instead of converting from one storage mechanism to the other, causing big losses in efficiency. Solar? This needs substantial surface area to gather any amount of energy sufficient to make a large dent. Might as well just use solar>electric by itself without yet another energy conversion to hydrogen(which is why I mentioned the Volt)
nuclear - great idea, but not yet politically acceptable enough. Once gas is $25/gallon this might change.
solar, wind - possible, but require very large areas for collection to make any conceivable dent in our gasoline usage
I don't see any easy answers that produce enough to put a significant amount of energy (say, >10%) into production of hydrogen, relative to the amount of energy we consume from gasoline fuels. It might be fine for niche uses.
Maybe there's a magic bullet, but after all these years of people talking about hydrogen, a lot of smart minds still don't have the answer.
So my comment on GMs scientists and a hydrogen fuel-cell car - that's nice as a demonstrator technology, but it appears farfetched to think that this is a technology that is going to magically leapfrog hybrids or work on electrical plug-in cars. The real problem is the fuel source, not the cars themselves.
Where did you buy your crystal ball at? Mine must be broken, because it won't tell me whether one future model of car from brandX is better than another from brandY. Maybe I can buy mine where you bought yours.
Also when deriding fleet sales remember that rental agency fleet sales are the bad sales. Automakers also sell cars to businesses and governments and as far as I know we rarely see a breakdown of company vs rental agency fleet sales.