We can speculate until the cows come home about what percentage of G6s go to fleet sales. What you see is Philly in not necessarily going to be representative of the nationwide picture.
I would guess that G6 convertibles are rentable in sunny climes like Miami, Las Vegas, and Honolulu, similar to the Chrysler Sebring, but I don't have hard figures to back this up.
One thing we do know (from Automotive News) is that nearly half of Pontiac's total output went to fleet sales just a few months back, as bumpy cited. No doubt the bulk of these were Grands Prix, but I've also read that the G6 is being put into fleet service more often so that the '08 Malibu's residual value won't be depressed by too many late-model Malibus entering (and leaving) rental fleets.
Maybe 62vette has some numbers he may be willing to share -- no doubt GM as a corporation has these figures: retail vs. corporate fleet sales vs. rental fleet sales. And I agree that sales to corporate fleets aren't as damaging to residual values as sales to rental fleets, which keep their cars for one year or less.
OTOH, rental sales in and of themselves are not bad sales -- there's a huge need for rental cars out there. I certainly don't want to have a choice of only 5-6 year-old beaters when I need to rent a car for business or pleasure. I suppose the trick is keeping rental sales in perspective -- sell some to the rental companies, but don't flood the market with your excess production.
Five of Eight Rental Companies offer the G-6. While this doesn't give us statistical data, it implies that a substantial number of G6's have been sold to rental car companies. Did I miss any of the majors that might significantly skew things differently?
Alamo G6 Avis G6 Budget G6 Dollar NO Enterprise G6 Hertz NO National g6 Thrifty NO
I've seen more Toyotas at the local satellite for a rental than I've seen GMs. There are ltos of Hyundai and Kias.
There are even, gasp, Hondas there. And some Fords.
What's the big todo about G6's when foreign brands are selling heavily into rentals and I assume all fleets where they can make the sale? I know the local utility uses Hondas in their fleet.
Honda doesn't do fleet sales. Any rental or company-use Hondas come from a dealer.
The big deal about the G6 is that anecdotal evidence suggests an unhealthy amount of them may be no-profit base-trim rental sales, which is bad for GM and bad for people who do buy them new.
Chrysler and Ford are taking up the slack as GM reduces.
48.5 percent of Chrysler brand sales between September 2006 and February 2007 were to fleets, according to a new report by trade publication Automotive News. That's an increase of nearly 10 percent from the 38.9 percent recorded between September 2005 and February 2006. GM's Pontiac division trailed Chrysler at a close 44.9 percent. The good news, however, is this figure is actually slightly lower than the previous year's 46.2 percent. GM's Buick brand also dropped to just 18.1 percent fleet sales — down significantly from 31.6 percent. Unfortunately, Saturn reported an increase in fleet sales to 22.8 percent, up from 16.1 percent.
Pontiac has the oldest fleet within GM right now and they are taking up the bulk of GM's fleet. But it just so happens that Pontiac's meat and potato carlines (G6 and GP) are also where most car rentals in the US comes from (mid size). I see continued reduction in GM fleet but untill the GP dies it will be heavy fleet and the G6 will continue to be somewhat fleet sold (not sure of the %.)
GM, meanwhile, is still trying to nudge its fleet sales to daily rental firms below 20% of overall sales.
"We're getting very, very close to that number," LaNeve said.
We can probably make a good guess at G6 Fleet Sales if we try. We know the number of cars sold (105K), by model . We know the percentage of cars sold to fleets(44.9%).
We can guess which cars would go to fleets and which probably wouldn't and work the numbers from there.
As a starting point - I've assumed that each model contributed 44.9% of itself to fleet sales.
So we can (fairly) safely assume that at least 21,000 G-6 went to fleets and we can also guess that it's unlikely that 2,346 Solstice' went to fleets...
"Yeah, but there aren't enough of them to keep the G6 out of fleet sales. "
And the sky is blue too! Why you would chose to go to the extreme and act like I stated the G6 isnt sold to fleets is beyond me. It's very obvious that the G6 is sold to fleets in appreciable numbers which is logical since it replaced the Grand Am. My point is we have no proof that the G6 has no retail appeal as people are arguing here. I am willing to bet that at 20-30% of G6s are fleet sales which is fine since its OK for Hyundai and Nissan to pump their midsize sedans into rental lots and no one complains. Fleet sales are only mentioned as an insult when talking about domestic cars.
2008 is the last model year for the Grand Prix. Only the 3800 and 5.3L V8 are offered for 2008 so I would expect its sales to continue to decrease. Then again, the G6 is better than the GP in most ways so it only makes sense for it to takeover the GPs position.
"The big deal about the G6 is that anecdotal evidence suggests an unhealthy amount of them may be no-profit base-trim rental sales, which is bad for GM and bad for people who do buy them new. "
Actually someone just stated recently that many G6 rentals are the V6 model and not the base model. When I rented a Lacrosse the agency had several G6 V6 models with 17" wheels on the lot. I didnt see one base model with a 4 cylinder.
"We can speculate until the cows come home about what percentage of G6s go to fleet sales. What you see is Philly in not necessarily going to be representative of the nationwide picture. "
Believe it or not, I did know that already. Why dont you look at the G6s you see and make your own determination. I see a lot of GT models which are not rentals. If you see lots of base or V6 models in your area than there is a good chance some of them are rentals.
BTW, GM plans to continue making the current Malibu for 2008 for rental duty to keep it from affecting 2008 Malibu resale value so I doubt they are trying to make the G6 a rental king to spare the new Malibu.
I'm not going to bother regarding the G6 because I'm not anywhere as twisted out of shape over this issue as you seem to be. Let's give it a rest. BTW, I was reasonably pleased with my rental G6 V6 out of Vegas.
Besides in VA, they stopped using "R" as the first letter in the license plate which used to make it easy to spot rentals. That little "e" on the back bumper isn't so obvious, and I have more important things to do when driving in traffic.
I didn't realize the "old" Malibu would continue in production for fleet use. Good idea, as was done with the previous generation which was sold as the "Classic" for a couple of years.
I am willing to bet that at 20-30% of G6s are fleet sales which is fine since its OK for Hyundai and Nissan to pump their midsize sedans into rental lots and no one complains.
G6 was running 42% fleet around this time last year. Sonata was 50% fleet (but was even with G6 in retail sales), while Altima was only 14% fleet.
Fleet sales are only mentioned as an insult when talking about domestic cars.
Thanks! Nice to have some hard and comprehensive numbers for ALL models, instead of just speculating about one to five models that he or she happens to spot on local roads.
Man, the Sebring/Stratus really were the rental car kings!
I've seen this table too many times. The problem is no one seems to have any newer information. Some of the stats seem very suspect though. I know Sonatas are sold to rental agencies but 50% seems quite high.
"This may be the reason why. "
I dont get it. That pie chart doesnt explain what I am talking about. First of all, its important to remember that a very high percentage of import brands are luxury brands and thus only a few import brands are really ideal fleet car suppliers. Since domestic brands are mostly clustered at the lower end of the market (cadillac and Hummer excluded) it would make sense that domestics would be over-represented in fleet sales. On top of that you have several models (Taurus, Crown Vic, Sebring, etc) that were virtually fleet only.
Either fleet sales are bad or they arent bad. They cant be bad in some cases but OK when Hyundai or Nissan uses them. The other thing is GM cant force anyone to buy its cars, not even rental agencies. My guess is one reason GM models are used so heavily is that GM offers the configurations and low prices the agencies want. I suspect that GM's reduction in fleet sales has been achieved by reducing discounts available to rental agencies which pushes them to makes purchases elsewhere.
BTW, I dont consider the Altima being "only" at 14% as something to brag about. GM midsize models have been a staple of fleets for a long time where as Nissan vehicles were rarely found at airports until recently. It's only 14% now, but what was it 10 years ago? Or 5 years ago? Same goes for Camry and Sonata. Sure their percentages as lower than many domestic cars, but they are moving in the wrong direction I bet. 10 years from now when Toyota is far past GM in total sales and close to GM in US share I bet their share of the rental business will be much higher.
Like every private equity firm, Cerberus will eventually sell Chrysler either to the public markets with an initial public offering or perhaps to another automaker. That's where Cerberus may really have something else going for it. When the Big Three sit down this summer to craft a new four-year labor deal, the big item will be walling off Detroit's massive health-care liabilities into a separate fund managed by the union. By the end of the year, the three carmakers will have a collective health-care liability of $120 billion that burns billion in cash and profits every year.
The basic premise is that Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors would each give the UAW a massive coffer of cash and securities worth, say, 60 percent to 70 percent of the liabilities.
If the union agrees, accepts the fund, and takes over management of health care for workers and retirees, that would wipe most of the liabilities off the books of each company. It also would greatly reduce the cash and profit burn. The union can invest the funds so the workers have uninterrupted health-care coverage.
This would be a huge boon for Cerberus. They bought Chrysler at a massive discount and might be able to sell it in a few years without the health-care issues that have been a bane for investors. "I'm not suggesting that this would fix these companies, but it's step No. 1," says JPMorgan analyst Himanshu Patel. "If you remove health-care liabilities, you remove a cancer within the system that kept a lot of investors away."
And what would the union invest those funds (or hold securities) in?
The new Chrysler IPO in 4 or 5 years. :P
The union should lock in a option price now for a huge block of shares down the road. Then they could write a new slogan - buy your car from an employee owned company.
48.5 percent of Chrysler brand sales between September 2006 and February 2007 were to fleets, according to a new report by trade publication Automotive News. That's an increase of nearly 10 percent from the 38.9 percent recorded between September 2005 and February 2006. ***
So almost half of Chrysler's cars were basically doing nothing towards their bottom line. Just filling up production and keeping old plants running.
Rental fleets are a bad thing for any car company. GM is wise to get out as soon as they can and leave the utter bottom-end of the business to someone else.
Now - if they want to buy a GM car in a few years for retail price, that's a whole other story, like how a few Cadillacs and BMWs make it into fleets.
The issue is they are tied down to keep the plants running so that they do not have to pay the UAW employees at that plant. If they shut a plant they have to pay them anyway. That is why GM and Ford had the buyouts. After GM closes the planned plants they should be just at about the capacity they need to be at.
The issue is they are tied down to keep the plants running so that they do not have to pay the UAW employees at that plant. *** Which has to be about the most bss-ackwards way to run a business. I guess it shows given how Chrysler is in the dumpster.
At the other end is a company like Aston Martin. Small, no compromises, and very well off in terms of profit and liability.
Either fleet sales are bad or they arent bad. They cant be bad in some cases but OK when Hyundai or Nissan uses them. The other thing is GM cant force anyone to buy its cars, not even rental agencies. My guess is one reason GM models are used so heavily is that GM offers the configurations and low prices the agencies want. I suspect that GM's reduction in fleet sales has been achieved by reducing discounts available to rental agencies which pushes them to makes purchases elsewhere
This is a key point that fleet sales can be both good and bad. A lot depends on the volume and the timing of the fleet sales. The vehicle manufacturing industry is so heavily invested in assets and product development that reaching a certain minimum production volume is absolutely imperative. Without this minimum volume the entire product line cannot be profitable; i.e. the Fixed Costs have to be covered first and foremost.
All makers have approximately the same development costs, plant costs, headquarter costs but the US manufacturers also have Legacy costs - and Jobs Bank costs - that are fixed no matter if they sell 10 million vehicles or 1 million vehicles. It's imperative that each model and each product be built in sufficient numbers to reach the annual 'breakeven' point.
If this means that volume has to be augmented by large fleet sales even up to 40% or even 50% of production then this is the only solution. Obviously every manufacturer would like to sell every unit at retail and make the maximum profit. Manufacturers don't choose to sell huge numbers of low-margin units out of the goodness of their corporate hearts. It's a necessity.
In the case of the US makers it's to cover their huge Fixed Cost burden. In the case of Hyundai it's to cover the initial invenstment in a brand new plant that can produce 3 times as many vehicles as they traditionally sold.
Good Fleet Sales: The Corolla
The Corolla is now in it's 6th year of production/sales of this Generation. Since year one it has been a huge sales success. Volume has increased to be in excess of 300,000 units each year. The breakeven point likely was reached 2-3 years ago. Since then there has been no Fixed Cost burden on this vehicle. The Fixed Costs were fully amortized in the first 3 yrs or so. Whatever that fixed cost burden was, $1000 or $2000 or $3000 is now flowing to the bottom line as pure profit. But what if sales begin to flag in the 4th or 5th year and volume begins to drop off? For every vehicle not sold Toyota loses .... $2000 in free money plus the normal profit on the vehicle. This might be as much as $4000 per unit.
So rather than lose ( by not selling the unit ) as much as $4000 per unsold unit why not sell some units to fleets at a $2000 discount and thereby still make a 'normal' profit.
So if a vehicle or product line has to sell to fleets from the very beginning ( Hyundai ) to reach a minimum sales volume it's problematic. If a vehicle can generate free money later in it's life by selling incremental units at a discount it's a good thing.
Well how old do you thing the original founders would be today? Unless they are Moses in age, I assume they are long gone to automotive heaven. If you mean how do they feel, looking down from above in wonder, then I suppose by now they could care less about it. After such events as the rebirth of the Dodge Charger as a front wheel drive econo car back when did not have him rolling in his grave, what else could. I guess 1983 was but one of many bad years for a founding father looking at his wayward children. Selling to Mercedes, priceless... or is that???
I bet GM would love to buy Jeep. Was GM in that game early on? I recall the Jeep, then the International Scout, then was it the Bronco, followed by the Blazers? I think the military had only Jeep and Scouts in the old days. Seems like Jeep would sell for a good price to any car company, though the new owners of Chrysler have stated they do not intend to break up Chrysler. We'll see! Loren
Not sure the Chrysler mini-van is not near a dead-end in the road. The New classes of SUVs kinda filled that space which the mini-van once filled. An Acadia seems to be sized like the larger Town & Country van, looks more macho, and may be more sound.
I still see some potential for a great future for the Jeeps. Less and less places to 4 wheel these days, but what the heck, they seem to still have those wanting 4X. Perhaps it is the snow, or roads getting so bad in some parts of the nation, people think they are off roading while driving to work. :surprise: -Loren
I'll say it again and again - the Acadia, while by all reports a wonderful vehicle, is not the equivalent of a large minivan in terms of cargo space with the third seat up. An Ody has more than double the space and a Sienna has even more than the Ody.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I'm more interested in the space with the seats down. Looks pretty good. Flat floor, front wheel drive (with AWD available), 18/26 EPA for the FWD. The liftover height doesn't sound bad either. All the Lambda platform needs is sliders, but then GM would have to compete with minivans on price.
No argument with you there. I need the seats and space often enough for it to make it worth my while to have the Ody. I'm sure I'm in a minority that continues to get smaller.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I see your point. Right now, as you pointed out, the market is slimmer and there are some good choices in mini-vans already from other brand names. Maybe GM could make a convertible work van / mini-van / travel van, for the GMC line. Maybe a diesel, high MPG vehicle. Loren
diesels will not be around much longer in the states unless they reject the new upcoming emmision rules. They can meet todays but it costs a whole bunch of money.
Edmunds says the max cargo capacity for the Acadia is 117 cu. ft. and 147 cu. ft. for the Odyssey. The max luggage capacity for the Ody is almost double though.
"62vetteefp" Perhaps you could answer a quick question. What was the fiber optics in a Corvette used for, and when did they begin / end the use? Still used for any GM car? Loren
Oh my, the luggage capacity under 27 cu. ft. for the Uplander is not so good. What is the deal with the Uplander and others as rebaged -- temporary product to be replaced or simply phased out? Loren
It's kind of odd on minivans. The Sienna is the tops for tat one followed by the Ody. Everyone else is a fair bit less even as total cargo capacity tends to be a lot closer. Seems to mean that the others give more room to the passengers.
This would be why an Ody or a Sienna works best for me. While we are large in numbers at 6 we are small of stature. The tallest person in the family is only 5'6." For someone with a siilar in numbers family but tall you'd likely make another choice and no doubt put a cap on it (I'll put my old one I haven't used in years on it this summer) or pull a little trailer.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Oh, and thanks, Steve, for posting those numbers. That's indeed where I got my information. All started maybe a year ago when we tested a Hyundai Entourage (which was very nice BTW) and my wife said "isn't teh space behind the third seat smaller than in the Ody?" Yes, it is.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Fiber optics were advanced for the time, too much for most to repair. Non-working Fiber Optics could indicate past body damage so check them and then check that area. Often body shops thought they were wires and would cut them, do the repair, and then tried to "solder" them together. If you are handy with such things, Radio Shack probably has enough fiber optics supplies to help you fix what you need.
1971 was the last year for the fiber optic light monitoring system located in front of and behind the shifter.
68/69 camaro Original Factory Rally-Sport trim. Original and rare GM "Vigi-light" (Fiber-Optic) front and rear turn/high beam signal indicators. Only body mods are the non-original paint color and added Z28 front/rear spoilers. Satin black painted rear panel.
Also featured is the 1969 Chevrolet Camaro RS/SS Coupe. This rare RS/SS sports a UCLA color combination that was not available as a production color. Due to a rare paint delete code on this vehicle the original owner was able to special order this combination. Vehicle has fiber optic fender indicators, headlamp washer, blue light radio, tilt, console, power windows, speed reminder, rosewood wheel, factory door edge guards, 12 bolt rear end. Documented luxurious Camaro RS/SS.
67 Impala
Comments: The Impala SS sales continued to fall as buyers increasingly turned away from fullsize performance. The SS began to look more and more like the standard Impala, with only a black accented lower body sill and bright fender moldings on the SS. The engine choices were reduced down to just a 396 with 325 bhp or a 427 with 385 bhp. The Impala also had a host of new safety and convenience features, including a dual master cylinder brake system, an energy absorbing steering column, and an ignition switch illuminated by the first use of fiber optics technology to appear in a Chevrolet.
U46 'Vigilite' Lamp Monitors - Special fiber-optic head and tail-lamp and directional signal monitors that allowed the driver to determine that all lights were working properly while sitting in the driver's seat.
Interesting -- thanks for the info. Looks like several years of toying with this fiber optics in cars other than the Vette.
Corvette has a great history indeed. I was considering a used C4 as a second car at one time. Now I am thinking a C5, though a bit more advanced, thus possibly more costly to repair than the C4, may be worth every penny of difference, even as a second car. To get in and out is no longer as great a task with the C5/C6 as it once was with the C4. I am thinking repairs could be higher cost, but the reliability of the C5 is said to be good. What of the latest? Did it get off the bat without needing a shake-out period of two years? Looks like some improvement on the interiors of the C5 / C6 cars. The interior was not only hard to get in and out with the C4, but it looked rather cheap plastic. Seems like I recall the interiors of say the C1 - mid-C3 era say as being richer looking, or at the least more durable looking. C5 and now the C6 is getting back on track for interiors, though it is look of the exterior and overall performance which wins people over.
Would it be a good thing if GM offered the Vette in a V6 engine again? I notice the new Vette is shorter - an effort towards more nimble-sports car handling-for looks perhaps. For whatever the reason, it is getting smaller again. How about the same 3.6V6 as found in the CTS high end performance model for the Vette? Light weight - more toss-able, and perhaps a MPG or two difference to boot? Just a thought. Price difference would not likely be too much of difference however. And I suppose the plant is already maxxed out for sales? A 300HP six -- why not? With gas over $3.50 in Calif. this may be the engine of choice for the new Camaro. Loren
I took my wife's '04 VUE into the dealer for service yesterday and they had an '08 getting prepped.
It was an XE trim level, which meant it had the 3.5L V6 from the Malibu, G6, etc. 6-speed auto tranny, with a +/- switch on the side of the gear shift to change gears. The XR with the 3.6L gets the same paddles as the Aura, IIRC.
Anyway, the exterior of the new VUE is very nice in person. Much more European influenced, to my eyes, as it should be since it will be sold overseas with the Opel Antara badge. Inside was nice, too.
Saturn may have something here .. the new VUE really hasn't grown in size over the previous model, unlike the RAV4 and Santa Fe, both of which now offer a 3rd row. I think it's smart of Saturn to only offer 5 seats; if you want more passenger space, get the Outlook.
I had an 84 and then an 86 Corvette. Both were used. Both were fun, but the 86 was much nicer in terms of ride and handling. The 84's suspension was more for the track and on aging highways would need more attention to keeping it on the road. The 86's port injection had a lot more performance.
The six cylinder engine (inline) was only offered in the first few years of production. By the late 50's only the small V8 was available. While a DOHC V6 might make a lot of sense to many people, the Camaro is where a smaller engine would probably sell much better.
If you are going to buy a used Corvette, I would look for the C5 I think, as the C4's are getting quite old. But then the C4's are probably fully depreciated at this point.
Thanks for info. I suppose they will never make a 6 again for the Vette. The Blue Flame, I believe it was called. I hear others say that the '84 for various reasons is to be avoided. I am thinking a '94 in the C4 or perhaps the '99 on in the C5 line is a good buy.
I wish the New Camaro was the original sized car, or smaller. Was looking the other day at measurements and it seems the original, and the larger looking second gen. Camaro are about the same dimensions. The Solstice Coupe show car may be almost the same size as a BMWZ4 Coupe. Wouldn't that be cool if GM built the Coupe, had a nice six in there to give it 255 or more HP, and sold it for under $23K ? Make it too sexy and fast, and it could hurt some of the Corvette sales, though those are car in high prestige and total performance class. And I suppose they worry about taking from Camaro sales.
I personally would like to see the Solstice or the SKY in a targa top version. Good strength to structure, looks good with top on and off, and can add to safety. Loren
After being asleep and a consistent moneypit for the last 15 years, peddling cars the were either long-in-tooth, or just mediocre from the get go, it'll be interesting how many people even have the brand on the radar anymore...
So is the new VUE still based on the Cheapuinox or is it "all new"? Last I heard, the hybrid model was cut so are they planning an updated version of the new one? I'd assume a definite "YES" but who knows. Perhaps they'll spend a few pennies more on interior materials while they're at it.
And the Aura? doesn't seem to be burning up any sales charts. Goal was set for 100k units and they are on taget for about half that. Wonder why? It's a somewhat handsome car, but looking too much like a rebadged G6 doesn't bring much uniquness to the table. Perhaps, most are just buying the Pontiac instead. You can probably steal one of those at bargain prices right now as the car is already dated.
The Outlook has two other identical siblings with another on the way (Chevy). Nothing special there. And an unproven car with 40 thousand dollar pricetag is a bit rich for a brand with a niche reputation. BTW, it's funny seeing a 5 ton Suburban sized SUV on a Saturn lot parked next to an Ion.
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the hype over GM's "different" car brand. Sure, things have changed from the days of the S-series and nothing else, but peddling cars that are just counterparts to more mainstream offerings doesn't come across as "Revolutionary". Heck, they even dumped the plastic paneling for conventional sheetmetal bringing the product closer to being just another rebadged Chevy.
I guess I'm still peeved that Olds got canned to continue the Saturn brand. :mad:
The 84's suspension set up is very good for racing. Not so good for normal highway use. The 84's engine had throttle body injectors. What really interested me in the early C4 Corvette's was the electronic dash displays. At night the LCD displays were very flashy. The speedometer was really interesting. In daylight, with the sun on the dash, it was nearly unreadable.
The Camaro will have a back seat which will make it more attractive for a lot of people. The Solstice with the turbo engine has 250 hp, so a six with 250 hp would be somewhat redundent although somewhat more refined perhaps.
GM Vehicles are “Most Wanted” by Consumers For GM, 13 is a lucky number. In the sixth annual Consumers’ Most Wanted vehicle awards, Edmunds.com recognized GM in 13 out of 32 categories – giving GM more awards than any other manufacturer. Chevrolet let the pack winning five awards and the GMC Acadia won the flagship award by a considerable margin. “This year, consumers voiced the opinion that the domestics are developing some very compelling cars and trucks,” said Karl Brauer, editor in chief of Edmunds.com. Here’s a look at the GM winners in their respective categories:
Most Significant Vehicle of the Year – GMC Acadia Large Truck – Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra SUV Under $35,000 – GMC Acadia/Saturn Outlook SUV Under $45,000 – Chevy Suburban/GMC Yukon XL/Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon SUV Over $45,000 – Cadillac Escalade/Escalade ESV Sedan Under $15,000 – Chevy Cobalt Sedan Under $25,000 – Saturn Aura Sedan Under $35,000 – Cadillac CTS (includes CTS‒V) Sedan Under $45,000 – Cadillac STS (includes STS‒V) Coupe Under $60,000 – Chevy Corvette (includes Z06) Convertible Under $25,000 – Saturn Sky (includes Red Line) Convertible Under $60,000 – Chevy Corvette Convertible Over $60,000 – Cadillac XLR (includes XLR‒V) Last year, GM received Consumers’ Most Wanted vehicle awards in just seven categories, illustrating that GM continues to build momentum. GM’s performance in the Consumers’ Most Wanted vehicle awards reflects the findings of several other internal and external measures finding that consumers’ opinion of GM is on the upswing.
Does anybody know where I can find the survey they used to get this data?
General Motors plans to begin building a compact Buick sedan in China in early 2009 but has not decided whether to offer the vehicle in the United States, say sources familiar with GM's product plans.
Those sources say Buick's U.S. lineup eventually will resemble that of Buick in China.
The Chinese small Buick, replacing the current Excelle, will be on the global front-wheel-drive Delta small-car architecture. The next-generation Delta architecture is being developed in Germany by an international team, says a source familiar with the plans.
If GM adds the compact to Buick's U.S. lineup, the car likely would be imported from China, a source says. The new small Buick sedan would be similar in size to the Chevrolet Cobalt, Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic.
If it is a Delta it would be made here unless all Deltas get built overseas, which is very doubtful.
All I can get for you is the intro page and maybe that'll be enough info for you - when you click through to the actual survey, you get "This survey is closed. Thank you for your interest."
Comments
I would guess that G6 convertibles are rentable in sunny climes like Miami, Las Vegas, and Honolulu, similar to the Chrysler Sebring, but I don't have hard figures to back this up.
One thing we do know (from Automotive News) is that nearly half of Pontiac's total output went to fleet sales just a few months back, as bumpy cited. No doubt the bulk of these were Grands Prix, but I've also read that the G6 is being put into fleet service more often so that the '08 Malibu's residual value won't be depressed by too many late-model Malibus entering (and leaving) rental fleets.
Maybe 62vette has some numbers he may be willing to share -- no doubt GM as a corporation has these figures: retail vs. corporate fleet sales vs. rental fleet sales. And I agree that sales to corporate fleets aren't as damaging to residual values as sales to rental fleets, which keep their cars for one year or less.
OTOH, rental sales in and of themselves are not bad sales -- there's a huge need for rental cars out there. I certainly don't want to have a choice of only 5-6 year-old beaters when I need to rent a car for business or pleasure. I suppose the trick is keeping rental sales in perspective -- sell some to the rental companies, but don't flood the market with your excess production.
Did I miss any of the majors that might significantly skew things differently?
Alamo G6
Avis G6
Budget G6
Dollar NO
Enterprise G6
Hertz NO
National g6
Thrifty NO
There are even, gasp, Hondas there. And some Fords.
What's the big todo about G6's when foreign brands are selling heavily into rentals and I assume all fleets where they can make the sale? I know the local utility uses Hondas in their fleet.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah, but there aren't enough of them to keep the G6 out of fleet sales.
Pontiac 2007 YTD: 105,417
G6 46,780
Grand Prix 22,405
Vibe 10,332
Torrent 9,596
G5 7,430
Solstice 5,225
GTO 2,587
Montana SV6 743
Bonneville 130
Grand Am 99
Sunfire 39
Montana 26
Aztek 25
The big deal about the G6 is that anecdotal evidence suggests an unhealthy amount of them may be no-profit base-trim rental sales, which is bad for GM and bad for people who do buy them new.
48.5 percent of Chrysler brand sales between September 2006 and February 2007 were to fleets, according to a new report by trade publication Automotive News. That's an increase of nearly 10 percent from the 38.9 percent recorded between September 2005 and February 2006.
GM's Pontiac division trailed Chrysler at a close 44.9 percent. The good news, however, is this figure is actually slightly lower than the previous year's 46.2 percent. GM's Buick brand also dropped to just 18.1 percent fleet sales — down significantly from 31.6 percent. Unfortunately, Saturn reported an increase in fleet sales to 22.8 percent, up from 16.1 percent.
Pontiac has the oldest fleet within GM right now and they are taking up the bulk of GM's fleet. But it just so happens that Pontiac's meat and potato carlines (G6 and GP) are also where most car rentals in the US comes from (mid size). I see continued reduction in GM fleet but untill the GP dies it will be heavy fleet and the G6 will continue to be somewhat fleet sold (not sure of the %.)
GM, meanwhile, is still trying to nudge its fleet sales to daily rental firms below 20% of overall sales.
"We're getting very, very close to that number," LaNeve said.
GM rental fleet is down like 33% from last year
We can guess which cars would go to fleets and which probably wouldn't and work the numbers from there.
As a starting point - I've assumed that each model contributed 44.9% of itself to fleet sales.
44.9 % OF 105,417 SALES = 47,332
G6 - 21,004
Grand Prix - 10,060
Vibe - 4,639
Torrent - 4,309
G5 - 3,336
Solstice - 2,346
GTO - 1,162
Montana SV6 - 334
Bonneville - 58
Grand Am - 44
Sunfire - 18
Montana - 12
Aztek - 11
47,332
So we can (fairly) safely assume that at least 21,000 G-6 went to fleets and we can also guess that it's unlikely that 2,346 Solstice' went to fleets...
Next?
Speaking of which, are they going to finally put the Grand Prix out of its misery once the G8 shows up?
And the sky is blue too! Why you would chose to go to the extreme and act like I stated the G6 isnt sold to fleets is beyond me. It's very obvious that the G6 is sold to fleets in appreciable numbers which is logical since it replaced the Grand Am. My point is we have no proof that the G6 has no retail appeal as people are arguing here. I am willing to bet that at 20-30% of G6s are fleet sales which is fine since its OK for Hyundai and Nissan to pump their midsize sedans into rental lots and no one complains. Fleet sales are only mentioned as an insult when talking about domestic cars.
Actually someone just stated recently that many G6 rentals are the V6 model and not the base model. When I rented a Lacrosse the agency had several G6 V6 models with 17" wheels on the lot. I didnt see one base model with a 4 cylinder.
Believe it or not, I did know that already. Why dont you look at the G6s you see and make your own determination. I see a lot of GT models which are not rentals. If you see lots of base or V6 models in your area than there is a good chance some of them are rentals.
BTW, GM plans to continue making the current Malibu for 2008 for rental duty to keep it from affecting 2008 Malibu resale value so I doubt they are trying to make the G6 a rental king to spare the new Malibu.
Besides in VA, they stopped using "R" as the first letter in the license plate which used to make it easy to spot rentals. That little "e" on the back bumper isn't so obvious, and I have more important things to do when driving in traffic.
I didn't realize the "old" Malibu would continue in production for fleet use. Good idea, as was done with the previous generation which was sold as the "Classic" for a couple of years.
G6 was running 42% fleet around this time last year. Sonata was 50% fleet (but was even with G6 in retail sales), while Altima was only 14% fleet.
Fleet sales are only mentioned as an insult when talking about domestic cars.
This may be the reason why.
Man, the Sebring/Stratus really were the rental car kings!
"This may be the reason why. "
I dont get it. That pie chart doesnt explain what I am talking about. First of all, its important to remember that a very high percentage of import brands are luxury brands and thus only a few import brands are really ideal fleet car suppliers. Since domestic brands are mostly clustered at the lower end of the market (cadillac and Hummer excluded) it would make sense that domestics would be over-represented in fleet sales. On top of that you have several models (Taurus, Crown Vic, Sebring, etc) that were virtually fleet only.
Either fleet sales are bad or they arent bad. They cant be bad in some cases but OK when Hyundai or Nissan uses them. The other thing is GM cant force anyone to buy its cars, not even rental agencies. My guess is one reason GM models are used so heavily is that GM offers the configurations and low prices the agencies want. I suspect that GM's reduction in fleet sales has been achieved by reducing discounts available to rental agencies which pushes them to makes purchases elsewhere.
BTW, I dont consider the Altima being "only" at 14% as something to brag about. GM midsize models have been a staple of fleets for a long time where as Nissan vehicles were rarely found at airports until recently. It's only 14% now, but what was it 10 years ago? Or 5 years ago? Same goes for Camry and Sonata. Sure their percentages as lower than many domestic cars, but they are moving in the wrong direction I bet. 10 years from now when Toyota is far past GM in total sales and close to GM in US share I bet their share of the rental business will be much higher.
will eventually sell Chrysler either to the public markets with an initial
public offering or perhaps to another automaker. That's where Cerberus may
really have something else going for it. When the Big Three sit down this
summer to craft a new four-year labor deal, the big item will be walling
off Detroit's massive health-care liabilities into a separate fund managed
by the union. By the end of the year, the three carmakers will have a
collective health-care liability of $120 billion that burns billion in cash
and profits every year.
The basic premise is that Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors would each
give the UAW a massive coffer of cash and securities worth, say, 60 percent
to 70 percent of the liabilities.
If the union agrees, accepts the fund, and takes over management of health
care for workers and retirees, that would wipe most of the liabilities off
the books of each company. It also would greatly reduce the cash and profit
burn. The union can invest the funds so the workers have uninterrupted
health-care coverage.
This would be a huge boon for Cerberus. They bought Chrysler at a massive
discount and might be able to sell it in a few years without the
health-care issues that have been a bane for investors. "I'm not suggesting
that this would fix these companies, but it's step No. 1," says JPMorgan
analyst Himanshu Patel. "If you remove health-care liabilities, you remove
a cancer within the system that kept a lot of investors away."
The new Chrysler IPO in 4 or 5 years. :P
The union should lock in a option price now for a huge block of shares down the road. Then they could write a new slogan - buy your car from an employee owned company.
***
So almost half of Chrysler's cars were basically doing nothing towards their bottom line. Just filling up production and keeping old plants running.
Rental fleets are a bad thing for any car company. GM is wise to get out as soon as they can and leave the utter bottom-end of the business to someone else.
Now - if they want to buy a GM car in a few years for retail price, that's a whole other story, like how a few Cadillacs and BMWs make it into fleets.
***
Which has to be about the most bss-ackwards way to run a business. I guess it shows given how Chrysler is in the dumpster.
At the other end is a company like Aston Martin. Small, no compromises, and very well off in terms of profit and liability.
This is a key point that fleet sales can be both good and bad. A lot depends on the volume and the timing of the fleet sales. The vehicle manufacturing industry is so heavily invested in assets and product development that reaching a certain minimum production volume is absolutely imperative. Without this minimum volume the entire product line cannot be profitable; i.e. the Fixed Costs have to be covered first and foremost.
All makers have approximately the same development costs, plant costs, headquarter costs but the US manufacturers also have Legacy costs - and Jobs Bank costs - that are fixed no matter if they sell 10 million vehicles or 1 million vehicles. It's imperative that each model and each product be built in sufficient numbers to reach the annual 'breakeven' point.
If this means that volume has to be augmented by large fleet sales even up to 40% or even 50% of production then this is the only solution. Obviously every manufacturer would like to sell every unit at retail and make the maximum profit. Manufacturers don't choose to sell huge numbers of low-margin units out of the goodness of their corporate hearts. It's a necessity.
In the case of the US makers it's to cover their huge Fixed Cost burden. In the case of Hyundai it's to cover the initial invenstment in a brand new plant that can produce 3 times as many vehicles as they traditionally sold.
Good Fleet Sales: The Corolla
The Corolla is now in it's 6th year of production/sales of this Generation. Since year one it has been a huge sales success. Volume has increased to be in excess of 300,000 units each year. The breakeven point likely was reached 2-3 years ago. Since then there has been no Fixed Cost burden on this vehicle. The Fixed Costs were fully amortized in the first 3 yrs or so. Whatever that fixed cost burden was, $1000 or $2000 or $3000 is now flowing to the bottom line as pure profit. But what if sales begin to flag in the 4th or 5th year and volume begins to drop off? For every vehicle not sold Toyota loses .... $2000 in free money plus the normal profit on the vehicle. This might be as much as $4000 per unit.
So rather than lose ( by not selling the unit ) as much as $4000 per unsold unit why not sell some units to fleets at a $2000 discount and thereby still make a 'normal' profit.
So if a vehicle or product line has to sell to fleets from the very beginning ( Hyundai ) to reach a minimum sales volume it's problematic. If a vehicle can generate free money later in it's life by selling incremental units at a discount it's a good thing.
I bet GM would love to buy Jeep. Was GM in that game early on? I recall the Jeep, then the International Scout, then was it the Bronco, followed by the Blazers? I think the military had only Jeep and Scouts in the old days. Seems like Jeep would sell for a good price to any car company, though the new owners of Chrysler have stated they do not intend to break up Chrysler. We'll see!
Loren
I still see some potential for a great future for the Jeeps. Less and less places to 4 wheel these days, but what the heck, they seem to still have those wanting 4X. Perhaps it is the snow, or roads getting so bad in some parts of the nation, people think they are off roading while driving to work. :surprise:
-Loren
Loren
How did you come up with this?
Vehicle Comparison
Loren
Loren
This would be why an Ody or a Sienna works best for me. While we are large in numbers at 6 we are small of stature. The tallest person in the family is only 5'6." For someone with a siilar in numbers family but tall you'd likely make another choice and no doubt put a cap on it (I'll put my old one I haven't used in years on it this summer) or pull a little trailer.
Fiber optics were advanced for the time, too much for most to repair. Non-working Fiber Optics could indicate past body damage so check them and then check that area. Often body shops thought they were wires and would cut them, do the repair, and then tried to "solder" them together. If you are handy with such things, Radio Shack probably has enough fiber optics supplies to help you fix what you need.
1971 was the last year for the fiber optic light monitoring system located in front of and behind the shifter.
http://www.corvetteamerica.com/cf/displaylearnmore.cfm?learnmoreid=2949&idlist=2- 18,728,931,724,2949,262,218,5058,5059,3078,3638,2497,3636,225,3734,354,1831&sear- chdest=%2Fcf%2Flearnmorelist%2Ecfm%3Fsubcategoryid%3DX430&subcategoryid=X430
68/69 camaro
Original Factory Rally-Sport trim. Original and rare GM "Vigi-light" (Fiber-Optic) front and rear turn/high beam signal indicators. Only body mods are the non-original paint color and added Z28 front/rear spoilers. Satin black painted rear panel.
http://custom.autos.yahoo.com/gallery/overview-car-21170
Also featured is the 1969 Chevrolet Camaro RS/SS Coupe. This rare RS/SS sports a UCLA color combination that was not available as a production color. Due to a rare paint delete code on this vehicle the original owner was able to special order this combination. Vehicle has fiber optic fender indicators, headlamp washer, blue light radio, tilt, console, power windows, speed reminder, rosewood wheel, factory door edge guards, 12 bolt rear end. Documented luxurious Camaro RS/SS.
67 Impala
Comments: The Impala SS sales continued to fall as buyers increasingly turned away from fullsize performance. The SS began to look more and more like the standard Impala, with only a black accented lower body sill and bright fender moldings on the SS. The engine choices were reduced down to just a 396 with 325 bhp or a 427 with 385 bhp. The Impala also had a host of new safety and convenience features, including a dual master cylinder brake system, an energy absorbing steering column, and an ignition switch illuminated by the first use of fiber optics technology to appear in a Chevrolet.
U46 'Vigilite' Lamp Monitors - Special fiber-optic head and tail-lamp and directional signal monitors that allowed the driver to determine that all lights were working properly while sitting in the driver's seat.
Corvette has a great history indeed. I was considering a used C4 as a second car at one time. Now I am thinking a C5, though a bit more advanced, thus possibly more costly to repair than the C4, may be worth every penny of difference, even as a second car. To get in and out is no longer as great a task with the C5/C6 as it once was with the C4. I am thinking repairs could be higher cost, but the reliability of the C5 is said to be good. What of the latest? Did it get off the bat without needing a shake-out period of two years? Looks like some improvement on the interiors of the C5 / C6 cars. The interior was not only hard to get in and out with the C4, but it looked rather cheap plastic. Seems like I recall the interiors of say the C1 - mid-C3 era say as being richer looking, or at the least more durable looking. C5 and now the C6 is getting back on track for interiors, though it is look of the exterior and overall performance which wins people over.
Would it be a good thing if GM offered the Vette in a V6 engine again? I notice the new Vette is shorter - an effort towards more nimble-sports car handling-for looks perhaps. For whatever the reason, it is getting smaller again. How about the same 3.6V6 as found in the CTS high end performance model for the Vette? Light weight - more toss-able, and perhaps a MPG or two difference to boot? Just a thought.
Price difference would not likely be too much of difference however. And I suppose the plant is already maxxed out for sales? A 300HP six -- why not? With gas over $3.50 in Calif. this may be the engine of choice for the new Camaro.
Loren
It was an XE trim level, which meant it had the 3.5L V6 from the Malibu, G6, etc. 6-speed auto tranny, with a +/- switch on the side of the gear shift to change gears. The XR with the 3.6L gets the same paddles as the Aura, IIRC.
Anyway, the exterior of the new VUE is very nice in person. Much more European influenced, to my eyes, as it should be since it will be sold overseas with the Opel Antara badge. Inside was nice, too.
Saturn may have something here .. the new VUE really hasn't grown in size over the previous model, unlike the RAV4 and Santa Fe, both of which now offer a 3rd row. I think it's smart of Saturn to only offer 5 seats; if you want more passenger space, get the Outlook.
The six cylinder engine (inline) was only offered in the first few years of production. By the late 50's only the small V8 was available. While a DOHC V6 might make a lot of sense to many people, the Camaro is where a smaller engine would probably sell much better.
If you are going to buy a used Corvette, I would look for the C5 I think, as the C4's are getting quite old. But then the C4's are probably fully depreciated at this point.
The Astra being a hatchback only was a good decision; keeps it unique and distinct from the sea of compact sedans out there.
I wish the New Camaro was the original sized car, or smaller. Was looking the other day at measurements and it seems the original, and the larger looking second gen. Camaro are about the same dimensions. The Solstice Coupe show car may be almost the same size as a BMWZ4 Coupe. Wouldn't that be cool if GM built the Coupe, had a nice six in there to give it 255 or more HP, and sold it for under $23K ? Make it too sexy and fast, and it could hurt some of the Corvette sales, though those are car in high prestige and total performance class. And I suppose they worry about taking from Camaro sales.
I personally would like to see the Solstice or the SKY in a targa top version. Good strength to structure, looks good with top on and off, and can add to safety.
Loren
So is the new VUE still based on the Cheapuinox or is it "all new"? Last I heard, the hybrid model was cut so are they planning an updated version of the new one? I'd assume a definite "YES" but who knows. Perhaps they'll spend a few pennies more on interior materials while they're at it.
And the Aura? doesn't seem to be burning up any sales charts. Goal was set for 100k units and they are on taget for about half that. Wonder why? It's a somewhat handsome car, but looking too much like a rebadged G6 doesn't bring much uniquness to the table. Perhaps, most are just buying the Pontiac instead. You can probably steal one of those at bargain prices right now as the car is already dated.
The Outlook has two other identical siblings with another on the way (Chevy). Nothing special there. And an unproven car with 40 thousand dollar pricetag is a bit rich for a brand with a niche reputation. BTW, it's funny seeing a 5 ton Suburban sized SUV on a Saturn lot parked next to an Ion.
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the hype over GM's "different" car brand. Sure, things have changed from the days of the S-series and nothing else, but peddling cars that are just counterparts to more mainstream offerings doesn't come across as "Revolutionary". Heck, they even dumped the plastic paneling for conventional sheetmetal bringing the product closer to being just another rebadged Chevy.
I guess I'm still peeved that Olds got canned to continue the Saturn brand. :mad:
The Camaro will have a back seat which will make it more attractive for a lot of people. The Solstice with the turbo engine has 250 hp, so a six with 250 hp would be somewhat redundent although somewhat more refined perhaps.
For GM, 13 is a lucky number. In the sixth annual Consumers’ Most Wanted vehicle awards, Edmunds.com recognized GM in 13 out of 32 categories – giving GM more awards than any other manufacturer. Chevrolet let the pack winning five awards and the GMC Acadia won the flagship award by a considerable margin.
“This year, consumers voiced the opinion that the domestics are developing some very compelling cars and trucks,” said Karl Brauer, editor in chief of Edmunds.com. Here’s a look at the GM winners in their respective categories:
Most Significant Vehicle of the Year – GMC Acadia
Large Truck – Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra
SUV Under $35,000 – GMC Acadia/Saturn Outlook
SUV Under $45,000 – Chevy Suburban/GMC Yukon XL/Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon
SUV Over $45,000 – Cadillac Escalade/Escalade ESV
Sedan Under $15,000 – Chevy Cobalt
Sedan Under $25,000 – Saturn Aura
Sedan Under $35,000 – Cadillac CTS (includes CTS‒V)
Sedan Under $45,000 – Cadillac STS (includes STS‒V)
Coupe Under $60,000 – Chevy Corvette (includes Z06)
Convertible Under $25,000 – Saturn Sky (includes Red Line)
Convertible Under $60,000 – Chevy Corvette
Convertible Over $60,000 – Cadillac XLR (includes XLR‒V)
Last year, GM received Consumers’ Most Wanted vehicle awards in just seven categories, illustrating that GM continues to build momentum. GM’s performance in the Consumers’ Most Wanted vehicle awards reflects the findings of several other internal and external measures finding that consumers’ opinion of GM is on the upswing.
Does anybody know where I can find the survey they used to get this data?
Those sources say Buick's U.S. lineup eventually will resemble that of Buick in China.
The Chinese small Buick, replacing the current Excelle, will be on the global front-wheel-drive Delta small-car architecture. The next-generation Delta architecture is being developed in Germany by an international team, says a source familiar with the plans.
If GM adds the compact to Buick's U.S. lineup, the car likely would be imported from China, a source says. The new small Buick sedan would be similar in size to the Chevrolet Cobalt, Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic.
If it is a Delta it would be made here unless all Deltas get built overseas, which is very doubtful.
what happened to an upscale Buick? And wasn't it giving all brands compacts way back when that caused brand equity to slide???
It's probably good to have a small car in China, but not the US...PLEASE not the US.