General Motors discussions

imidazol97

The auto transmissions were problems in all cars. We had a Ford go out at I'd guess around 60-70 K miles. Many people bought manual transmissions--three speeds, imagine that.

m1miata

Which GM cars are using the 6 sp. tranny which was the shared project of Ford and GM? And what is wrong with that one? Another 6 speed is in the works, but why so? The 6 speed in the Aura seems OK. GM buys those trannies? Someone told me the company some time back, but perhaps it is allergy season, my mind is simply in a fog and not recalling things today.
Loren

fezo

You don't want to know about my Volvo clutch. This was an old 69 - the first car I bought out of college. The clutch died on me and back in those days you had a local guy who was good with "foreign cars." He never was. He replaces the clutch. It craps out in record time. I bring it back. He says he used a rebuild. I say try again with a new one. That one implodes two hours from there (a good thing) and I get it towed to a local guy who replaced it and it was perfect after that.

I don't understand the need for multiple six speed transmissions but I'm not terribly concerned.

I appreciate the concerns of folks that bristle at the sound of the negative reaction to all things GM. They landed in my doghouse but they earned that one and it's a whole lot tougher to get out of a doghouse that to get into one.

That said, I try my best to keep an open mind and understand that the multiple posters with GM products that behave flawlessly aren't making it up.

I think right now I am probably paying more attention to styling on GM vehicles. Their exteriors have improved a bunch in my book. They are giving each division a look that is attractive and at the same time says what it is from a fair distance - I mean a Pontiac is identifiable as such from blocks away. Same thing for the other divisions. I think Buick does a very nice job providing an exterior design that is modern and yet unmistakably Buick.

I'm of mixed opinions once you get inside. I'm not crazy about the Pontiacs and Saturns but like the rest of the lineup well enough. I suspect that is because of what demographic they are aiming them at.

62vetteefp

made in US GM plants
The rear-drive transmission cases produced in Bedford will be used in the Hydra-Matic 6L80 and 6L50 six-speed transmissions currently being produced by GM Powertrain's Ypsilanti (Michigan) Transmission Operations and in future six-speed operations at the Toledo (Ohio) Transmission facilities.
The front- and all-wheel drive transmission cases produced in Bedford will be used in the Hydra-Matic 6T70 and 6T75 six-speed transmissions produced by the GM Powertrain Warren (Michigan) transmission plant. The 6T70 debuts on the Saturn Aura and on a Pontiac G6 model. The 6T75 will be offered on the Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia, and Buick Enclave.

the 6t40 will be used in 4 cylinder vehicles two years from now. The 6T70/75 are V6 FWD trannies.

So is GM that far behind in the midsize 4 cylinder market? Do both Toyota and Honda have 6 speeds coming with their 4 cylinders or are they working on 8 speeds?

http://www.gmdynamic.com/company/gmability/environment/plants/facility_db/news_a- - wards.php?fID=165

m1miata

" So is GM that far behind in the midsize 4 cylinder market? Do both Toyota and Honda have 6 speeds coming with their 4 cylinders or are they working on 8 speeds?"

Good question. Looking at the Civic, with 30 / 40 MPG, I would say they can stop at 5 sp. transmission though a 6 speed would give them a little better range at launch time, as the Civic has less torque than say the Cobalt. Perhaps not a bad idea. As for the Cobalt, with 24 / 32 MPG, it really needs something to boost the MPG. If the 6 speed is the ticket, then go for it. There must be plans for a totally new replacement to keep in the game, I would think. As for the 4 cylinder market as a whole for GM, it is not too impressive give the more 6 cylinder like MPG. The Impala gets what, say 31 MPG. My Mustang in 1985 got 30 MPG.
Loren

fezo

I'm trying to be nice and objective and then they do something like this.

The Enclave is not yet available here and yet GM is offering $1,000 cash back.

Come on, guys. You;ve got orders on them already! Don't start giving away the store!

m1miata

Are you talking about this
offer
Interesting deal. Not so good for customer appreciation. If you own one now, you do not get the $1K off? One way or another, on a $32K + car, I suppose the discount will be greater than $2K and closer to $4K anyway. Meanwhile, back at the enclave, I am thinking over this offer to only those not currently owning a GM.
Loren

fezo

When they started the loyalty discounts I thought they were dumb because you are going to see those people back in anyway. These discounts for people switching brands make more sense but after years of doing it teh other way I would think it would tick off those that had been loyal. I know after 5 Hondas if Honda started paying people to join the fold I'd be a bit steamed.

I just hope the finance guys stay way far away from those that are designing transmissions and engines.....

1487

with CVTs the engine often stays pinned at a certain RPM as you accelerate. Its not like a conventional automatic where 60-70mph will have you at 2000-2500rpm. I've read that its not unusualy under some conditions to have the engine stay at a relatively high rpm while accelerating. I just dont see the point. Conventional automatics arent that bad so I see no reason to get excited about CVTs.

kdhspyder

This brings to mind something I've been mulling over since the Tahoe/Yukon 2-mode hybrid was reviewed.

From all information available the 2-mode seems to be the real thing. It's been field tested in city buses for several years now. It's been announced in at least 4 vehicles that I know of, Tahoe/Yukon, Escalade and Aura. It's due here imminently.

The technology will prove out over the first several years but initial indications are good in that it will offer larger vehicle buyers the same fuel savings of say a TCH over a 4c ICE Camry, say about 20%. It appears that the Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade will gain about 20% in FE from the high teens to the low 20's. I'd guess the Aura 2-mode will go from the high 20's to the low 30's in FE.

All is good. If this can be migrated to trucks and especially to the lambda's then GM would have a huge headstart on every other manufacturer. Imagine a lambda triplet getting 30 mpg on average ( one occupant ) where other minivans and crossovers are getting mid-low 20's.

OK all you have to do is pay $3000 to $5000 additional for this world class product!!!!!!

HUH????? Where are the rebates though?

OK let me do the math, I've been through this before in a multitude of Prius discussions.

Well equipped Tahoe/Yukon ICE is about $40000 MSRP less dealer discounts and variable rebates bringing the actual transaction pricing to say $34-35000.here for example

Same well-equipped Tahoe/Yukon 2-mode is expected to be $3000-$5000 more, Say $44000 MSRP.

Outside of company-wide incentives such as the recent conquest incentive on all products let's say the 2-Modes have no incentives making the transaction prices range from $40000-$42000.

So do you buy the $35000 ICE Tahoe or the $40000 2-Mode Tahoe? Remember all the discussions and skepticism about the Prius having a 8-10 year 'payback' ( which is false btw ). A 2-Mode, if it saves 20% in FE will bring a Tahoe owner from 17 mpg ( 58.8 G/1000 mi ) to about 21 mpg ( 47.6 G/1000 mi ). An owner would save 168 gal of fuel each year based on 15000 mi driven. At current prices, worst case, that comes to about $550 in fuel savings each year. In 6 years of constant $3.25/G pricing it would be a $3300 savings. Not quite breakeven but not bad.

So for the faithful, here is(are) the key question(s)?
..Will you be willing to support GM's efforts in achieving a leadership position by purchasing a 2-Mode at a $5000 delta over an ICE counterpart?
..IOW will you give GM $5000 your money NOW at the time of purchase instead of giving $3500 of it to OPEC and it's corporate handmaidens over the next 6 years?
..Or, "If it doesn't have a giveaway incentive I don't want it."

bpizzuti

I do. They're much less complicated than any other transmission, and so repair costs may be fairly low. They're also fairly cheap to build, as they have few moving parts (which also means they might not wear as much).

You can also program in as many "ratios" as you want....want an 8 speed automatic? Build a CVT and program it with 8 virtual ratios, make it use it all the time, and presto chango, you have an 8 speed automatic.

What would be a genuine improvement on a CVT is finer control...not just some preprogrammed ratios, but adjustment ability, kind of like Subaru's SIDrive, where you can bias it for fuel economy, HP, or torque. And probably a "highway" button to engage the overdrive range and lower the RPMs while cruising.

Nissan seems to be proving the CVT stuff. GM was quite behind on trannys for a while. Admittedly their 4 speed automatic was/is a very good design, but they relied on it too long, and the image became that of an outdated tranny with "only" 4 speeds. Honda doesn't make a 4 speed anymore, and most of the other Japanese manufacturers are well along on phasing out 4 speed transmissions (As is Ford, actually). But with GM (And Subaru), the 4-speed box is still fairly common. They need to step it up a bit, because image liability is still a real liability in a competitive market.

1487

its quite apparent you totally missed the conversation we had on here over the last few days. GM makes more 4 speeds than others, but they are ahead of many on 6 speeds. You cant call them laggards on trannies when they have more 6 speeds in production than Hyundai, Honda and chrysler combined. Sure Honda has 5 speeds and that is great, but GM is going straight to 6 speeds. Toyota only offers a 6 speed on TWO models right now and the 2008 highlander will NOT have a 6 speed auto while every new vehicle GM is launching from this point forward (except Astra which isnt really new) seems to be likely to have a 6 speed. Scions and Corolla are still using 4 speeds as is the Rav4.

bumpy

I've read that its not unusualy under some conditions to have the engine stay at a relatively high rpm while accelerating. I just dont see the point.

The peak horsepower and torque is found at those higher rpms, so the CVT holds the engine at that level while a conventional automatic or manual revs the engine up, drops it down, revs it up, drops it down, etc. CVT delivers the power in a steady flow.

bpizzuti

I caught some of it...work has been nuts lately. I know they're making 6-speed trannys (They and Ford co-developed one actually). But my point was that a large number of their vehicles still use 4 speed autos on most trims, where the competition uses 5 or more on similar-class engines.

The V6 RAV4 uses a 5 speed...that's the competitor to the Equinox, not the base 4 cyl. It's good to make Toyota sweat, but Nissan is still sitting there grinning, as is Honda. SATURN is putting a 6 speed in all V6 VUE trims, but the 4-cyl is still glued to a 4-speed...word is GM's 4-cyl engines are going to be the last to get a new transmission. Possibly the 6 speed boxes they're working on are physically too big? I dunno. With gas prices these days, the 4 cyl engines are what people will look for, and they're going to find "only" 4 speeds, versus Mazda's and Honda's 5, and Nissan's and Mitsubishi's infinite number (As well as, OMG...DODGE). Toyota will end up losing some sales on that point too, by the way, and so will Subaru. So will Ford if they don't get something else into the Focus and Escape. The V6 Fusion, however, sports 6 speeds. How many doth the Malibu carry with yon V6?

Hyundai only seems to use 4 speed trannies on their 4 cyl engines also...and they've already got major problems with fuel economy, as their engines are some of the least efficient out there. They may take a hit but they've got a serious advantage they can trumpet between the lower initial price and longer warranty, so they have something to offset it with.

Toyota may have actually made a mistake developing both a 5 speed and a 6 speed box. That may be slowing them down because of the overlapping investment, giving GM a window. That's only assuming GM gets off the proverbial 4-speed duff. The 6 speed trannies need to get into the mainstream sellers, meaning the Malibu, HHR, Cobalt, and Equinox.

Bottom line is that GM is behind the curve. They're not the ONLY one, but it's a liability they need to address if they're really going to pick things up. IF they can, they can take advantage with proper marketing. If not... :sick:

Scary thing is I like some of GM's new designs (Mostly the Saturns, but the Malibu is nice).

62vetteefp

Which engine/trans was in that Mustang? the 4 cyl auto got 23 epa highway. But since you are comparing to a V6 auto Impala the same mustang combo got 20 highway and I would bet the HP was a bit less than the curent Impala.

1487

"Bottom line is that GM is behind the curve. They're not the ONLY one, but it's a liability they need to address if they're really going to pick things up. IF they can, they can take advantage with proper marketing. If not... "

No they are not. First of all, Toyota's most popular four cylinder models are camry, corolla, Rav4 and Yaris. All but the Camry use a four speed so the fact of the matter is MOST Toyotas with four cylinders have 4 speed autos, period.

You keep talking about CVTs but the Corolla with a 4 speed gets better mileage than the Sentra with a CVT. The Altima V6s mileage is no better than the Accord or Camry and only slightly better than the Aura/G6 with 6 speed. It is not a foregone conclusion that CVTs deliver superior mileage to conventional automatics.

As for 6 speeds in mainsteam products, the 2008 Vue, Malibu, Equinox, Aura and G6 will have 6 speed autos available. Sorry but I dont see how those vehicles are NOT mainstream and affordable. You dont want me to compare the base Rav4 to the Equninox but the bottom line is the Equinxx comes standard with a 5 speed while the Rav4 doesnt. The top of the line Equinox will have a 6 speed while the top Rav4 will NOT. Its always helpful to know what products GM offers before you start criticizing them for being behind the times. You are making recommendations that arent necessary because GM has already announced 6 speeds in 4 additional mainstream vehicles for the 2008 MY. Seeing as though the 2008 Highlander has a five speed my guess is Toyota doesnt have the FWD 6 speed capacity to give the tranny to the Highlander, RX350 or Avalon.

If you really want to talk advanced trannies and who's ahead I would have to give the nod to Ford, they have more 6 speeds on mainsteam vehicles than Toyota, GM or Honda (obviously).

"With gas prices these days, the 4 cyl engines are what people will look for, and they're going to find "only" 4 speeds, versus Mazda's and Honda's 5, and Nissan's and Mitsubishi's infinite number (As well as, OMG...DODGE)."

Stop talking speeeds and start talking fuel economy. The Corolla beats the Elantra, 3 and Sentra in mileage in spite of having a 4 speed auto. The 3's mileage is far from class leading even though it has a 5 speed. with the 2.3L engine the 3's mileage is only nominally better than the Cobalt's.

bpizzuti

Here's the point I was making: Someone shops a Cobalt, right? They get the info, then comparison shop, and the Nissan dealer points to the nifty new CVT thing, and the Honda dealer points out that they've got an extra gear in their car, which is why they have such wonderful fuel economy compared to that "primitive GM 4-speed."

MPG is MPG..it's a selling point. So is technology, and "4-speed automatic" is NOT a selling point, whereas "CVT," "5-speed auto," "6-speed auto," and several other terms ARE. By not having more than a 4-speed in many vehicles, a manufacturer gives up a selling point to any other manufacturer who might have more.

Now, if GM is in fact advancing over other manufacturers (Hyundai, Toyota) the other problem is they need to get the message out. They haven't, have they? Haven't seen a thing...come to think of it, I don't see much Chevy advertising, except for local dealer spots. In advertising, Toyota trumpets their hybrids, Nissan trumpets their small cars and CVTs, Subaru trumepts their AWD system, Mazda trumpets their "zoom-zoom," lately Honda has been selling safety, and Hyundai has been selling their low prices. Ford drives the American Idol contestants around in Fusions and Edges. What's GM's identity? What's the message? "This is our country?" hasn't been cutting it.

You're right about the Equinox...didn't know that one offhand, and I apologize. However, the other models I mentioned currently sport 4-speed transmissions. They need an advantage to trumpet, whether it's safety, sport, technology, or Jordin and Blake's butt-prints. . IF they can get the 6 speeds to be pervasive AND get the message out, that would be effective. But that's still an "if" and, knowing GM, may be aborted mid-stream. That's why I'm still skeptical.

fezo

"As for 6 speeds in mainsteam products, the 2008 Vue, Malibu, Equinox, Aura and G6 will have 6 speed autos available. Sorry but I dont see how those vehicles are NOT mainstream and affordable."

I do - they aren't available yet.

One can't insist on applying the rule of only what Toyota has out now counts while allowing GM the luxury of "oh we'll count stuff we know is in the pipeline."

I pretty much agree with the rest. MPG not number of speeds is all I'm worried about in an automatic unless there is some other issue with the transmission itself and I really don't have any issues with anyone's units.

1487

The vue is going on sale as we speak. The Aura and G6 are already available. The Acadia/Outlook are also mainstream vehicles available NOW with 6 speed autos last time I checked. Sorry, but I dont consider vehicles coming out within 3 months to be way down the road. They are not available now but full specs have been released and they are 2008 Models. I havent heard of any new 6 speeds for Honda, Hyundai, etc. for the 2008 model year. I fail to see how you can criticize GM for products 3 months away when some of their competitors havent fielded a 6 speed yet.

BTW, in case you missed it I did reference the 2008 Highlander which isnt available yet. If I knew details of other 2008 Toyotas I would mention them. My guess is you shouldnt hold your breath for 2008 Rav4s and Avalons with 6 speed autos.

1487

90% of the public has no clue what type of tranny is under their hood. If your logic was correct the Silverado, F150, Impala and Corolla wouldnt be successful vehicles. Its really that simple. Only people who frequent sites like this and read about cars know what type of transmission is in their car. People buying Nissans chose either auto or manual, they could care less what type of auto Nissan offers. When the average carbuyer goes to a dealer they are not swayed by the number of gears, in fact most buyers and salemen would have trouble telling you how many gears each car in the showroom has. The old civic had a 4 speeed and sold just fine and now you are acting as if a 4 speed in a compact is a deal breaker. The old civic got the same mileage as the new one even though it did have slightly less power.

"You're right about the Equinox...didn't know that one offhand, and I apologize. However, the other models I mentioned currently sport 4-speed transmissions. "

The 2007 equinox and Torrent have 5 speed autos STANDARD and the Vue has a 5 speed with the V6. The G6 and Aura offer 6 speeds but come standard with 4 speeds.

"Now, if GM is in fact advancing over other manufacturers (Hyundai, Toyota) the other problem is they need to get the message out. They haven't, have they? Haven't seen a thing...come to think of it, I don't see much Chevy advertising, except for local dealer spots. In advertising, Toyota trumpets their hybrids, Nissan trumpets their small cars and CVTs, Subaru trumepts their AWD system, Mazda trumpets their "zoom-zoom," lately Honda has been selling safety, and Hyundai has been selling their low prices. Ford drives the American Idol contestants around in Fusions and Edges. What's GM's identity? What's the message? "This is our country?" hasn't been cutting it. "

Either you dont watch TV, or you dont pay attention to GM ads. GM buys more ad time than any other manufacturer. I have recently seen ads for Impala, Cobalt, Acadia, Yukon Denali, Silverado, CTS and other vehicles. I have seen numerous ads for the Saturn Aura and now Saturn has just lauched a new campaign called "Rethink American" which I like a lot. I dont know why you havent seen any GM ads, but I assure you they are advertising.

"IF they can get the 6 speeds to be pervasive AND get the message out, that would be effective. But that's still an "if" and, knowing GM, may be aborted mid-stream. That's why I'm still skeptical. "

Continue to be skeptical if you wish. Magazines, such as Edmunds, have already tested the Vue XR with 6 speed. I assure it's real. The Malibu is a reskinned Aura and will have the same tranny and it is moving forward 100%. Its kind of silly to think that GM would abandon 6 speeds on previously announced models. Matter of fact, they had the 2008 Equinox Sport at my autoshow in February and I sat in the vehicle. It is 100% real and will be on sale within months.

BTW, all 2008 Cadillacs except DTS will have 6 speeds. All Infinitis have 5 speeds as do all acuras. No Lexus trucks have 6 speeds and for 2008 only the LX570 will as far as I know.

cooterbfd

So is technology, and "4-speed automatic" is NOT a selling point, whereas "CVT," "5-speed auto," "6-speed auto," and several other terms ARE.

This is a quote from Car and Driver on the Altima CVT:
The Altima is always straining at the bit, a jumpy throttle making for unintended tire chirps. The 2.5 makes power all right, but not aural pleasure, particularly closer to redline, where the noise turns harsh. During on-ramp accelerations, the CVT holds the revs high so you have time to soak up the car’s brake-horsepower bronchitis

CVT may get them in the door, but that sounds like an experience that might drive people away.

"4 sp. auto" may not be the selling point it was 25 years ago, but if they work good, they'll still sell, for the time being. That is how Chevy got away with making JUST a 6 cyl, up until 1955, while Ford had their famous flathead V-8 out 20 yrs prior. Lincoln and Cadillac went to V-8's in the '30's, yet Packard, Buick, and Pontiac got away with Inline 8's until the early '50's.

m1miata

The 2.3 liter. HP = don't ask :sick: But it did get 30 MPG. Not sure where you got the 23 EPA, guess that is the V8. Gosh, I wish I had a V8. That car needed it badly. The point is, cars got 30 MPG a long - long time ago. The Cobalt should be in the 35 to 40 MPG, if it is playing in the same game as the Civics of this world.

The Impala gets 31, so what is wrong with the Cobalt, as it is getting bu 32 with a four banger?
Loren

m1miata

Test drove a CVT Altima, and did not like it. Would prefer it to have the 5 speed or a 6 speed. A four speed, for old times sake, I think not. Yes, the CVT may prove to be a mistake on Nissan part.
Loren

cooterbfd

A four speed, for old times sake, I think not.

And no inline 8 either :P

However, I do think GM has time to push the 6 speeds into their lineup, and do it RIGHT, instead of tripping all over themselves to rush them in, and have a potential disaster on their hands, much like the 350 V-8 diesel.

fezo

"90% of the public has no clue what type of tranny is under their hood."

I'll agree with that one!

fezo

I cannot for the life of me figure out how a make that can squeeze 31 mpg out of an Impala can't get more than 32 out of the Cobalt.

At that point I'd just buy the Impala but there's a bigger problem than that. Those Corollas getting 35. I won't sweat a little gas if I like the car but I think the entire market is moving towards people who will look at those EPA numbers and always buy 35 over 32, so the task becomes to be king of squeezing miles out of a small car's gas. If Chevy can get 30+ out of an Impala and GM can get that much out of a big Buick they've gotta have the know how to do 40 in a Cobalt. It's just a matter of doing it.

m1miata

You are right there. Most people do not look for performance or understand much about cars. This is how they sell a loaded XE Aura for the same price as the superior XR model. Guess people just count the cup holders, sit in the seat, and maybe take a test drive to see if the car moves. Yep, the XE and XR move moved So the six speeds, better engine, wheels without plastic hubcaps and such means nada. Now, if I am considering the XE, it's worth is sub $20K no matter what extras are tagged on to it. Not a bad car, but certainly is not the same car as the XR in a base model for $24K, if ever found on a lot. Like you said, most people don't notice the difference. And like I have noticed, they love them add-ons more so than the real meat to a car. Maybe the Aura XE could have had the 3 speed out of my old Achieva.

I find the 5 sp. with a D3 selection, which is good in the 45 MPH range, to slightly higher, is fine for back roads, when required -- curves or downhill runs. A 5 or a 6 seem like a good number to go with for fuel economy and performance.
Maybe the 7 and 8 speeds will eke out another MPG or two for those larger engines, and heavier cars, with some really high gears, or quicker into a higher gear in the mid-range of speed??? As far as price, I would think a 4 or 5 sp. Mercedes or BMW would cost a pretty penny to repair, so oh my-my the 7 or 8 speeds --but then again, if you can afford the car...
Loren

m1miata

Is the EPA for Corolla now 35 MPG. Hummm? I had a 1998 model, with an automatic. It got up to 40 MPG while newer and was getting around 38 MPG in the 7th year still.
Whatever it gets now, the next model due out soon, is gonna get more. The Cobalt and Aveo line simply needs to get into the MPG race.
Loren

bpizzuti

Vue has a 5 speed with the V6.

Um...what was that you were telling me? The new VUE V6 comes standard with a SIX speed on both V6 engines.

Now, let's get back to "they're coming." Has it been announced which tranny the new Malibu will have? I haven't heard anything yet, but considering Saturn is a slightly more premium brand than Chevy, they may keep the 4 speed in the Malibu to differentiate the models and justify the Aura's higher price tag. Just a possibility mind you: like I said, I haven't heard anything definite one way or the other.

Nor have I heard anything about the Cobalt or HHR getting anything other than a 4 speed (or the Aveo, come to think of it). Want an advantage over newly #1 Toyota? Put 6 speeds in the suckers before they do. PEOPLE won't know about it unless DEALERS tell them and MANUFACTURERS advertise it...which is why GM has to A: do it, and B: communicate it. You're right about most people not knowing, but if they don't know/don't care, then what's the point of developing a 6 speed automatic transmission? So it has to be both done, and communicated, through advertising and through dealer selling-points, otherwise the investment is wasted money.

Me, being Joe Consumer, shouldn't have to LOOK for GM ads, or be assured they're there. If I'm not seeing the ads, it means they're not reaching a significant portion of the audience. This is a major problem, especially since I watch a lot of TV: Fox News, FOX, CNN, NBC, CBS (well, maybe not now that they've canceled Jericho), ESPN, TNT, et cetra. So either they're spending their ad money wrong or they're shortchanging their marketing department. Or their ads aren't memorable enough to create a brand identity that lasts in people's minds, which is even worse.

BTW, I've seen GM do plenty of "silly" things. A 5 cylinder truck, canceling the Camaro, making the Aztek....never discount the silliness of a major corporation. :P

fezo

The 35 number was one that was floating around another topic. The actual number is 38.

I had an old 85 Sentra years ago that was rated in teh high 30s but I could crack 40 on a long trip.

62vetteefp

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

Your 1985 mustang. past memories are rosy?

4cyl/auto 23 hiway
6cyl/auto 21 hiway
8cyl/auto 22 hiway

m1miata

I had the stick. It got 21 / 27 according to EPA. I bested that number, and got 29 to 30 some times. Ford wasn't noted for great gas mileage. Getting 30 MPG was not unheard of back in 1985, so a Cobalt getting 32 is not too exciting in 2007. And the Aveo is really poor gas mileage for its class. Time to get with the program.
Loren

62vetteefp

Looks like Chevy is putting it on the line.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070524/AUTO01/705240375/1148

http://info.detnews.com/pix/photogalleries/autosgallery/08chevmalibu/index.htm

GM is urging dealers to place Camrys in Chevy showrooms across the nation. The automaker also intends to go on the road with both sedans and encourage the public to take a ride in each.

The made-over Malibu goes on sale this fall, and GM is counting on the dramatic redesign to boost its share of the crucial midsize sedan segment.

"The fact is, when you look at the hard data, we have a product that is not only every bit as competitive, but also beats out the competition," GM sales Chief Mark LaNeve said Wednesday. "We want people to have the experience of both vehicles. And we think that can help us."

62vetteefp

10 years skilled trades getting paid 90% of income for sitting.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070524/AUTO01/705240372/1148

About 400 General Motors Corp. skilled trades workers in Flint and Lansing assigned to the automaker's controversial jobs bank may be forced to learn a different job or go to work at a distant factory if they don't take a new buyout offer extended by the company.

GM's move to clear out the jobs bank -- factory workers who collect most of their pay and benefits despite being laid off -- was made possible by a first-of-its-kind agreement with the United Auto Workers.

Under the terms, which apply only to skilled trades workers in Flint and Lansing, GM can compel those who don't take the buyout to retrain for another skilled trade, move them to an unskilled production job and even relocate them to a plant in another city or state.

Nearly half of the 100 skilled trade workers at Flint's UAW Local 599 have been in the jobs bank for nearly a decade,

bpizzuti

Sounds an awful like something Ford did recently with the Fusion, doesn't it?

I also notice Chevy isn't putting a Fusion in the showroom with the Malibu.

fezo

I'd seen that! It's certainly GM saying "OK, it's put up or shut up time, so we'll put up!"

Certainly shows a great deal of confidence in their product. Could be a great move.

fezo

Hmmm... a Fusion in there, too? Now THAT would be interesting!

m1miata

Hope they have the salespeople research both cars, as in reading of all the details of cars before the public enters the showrooms. I find too many salespeople do not have a clue as to any aspect of the cars which they sell. The Malibu looks like a real effort this time around. Things are starting to get interesting now. I know the XR Aura is pretty good competition to the Camry for power and performance. And there is the handling plus for the Aura. Not sure if interior space is going to be as good. For what I want in a car, the side-by-side between the Malibu and Camry, may look to me like a win for GM. I guess for those wanting the family car, it is for them to decide. Hope this is the 3.6 V6 and the 4 banger as the base cheapie model, and not more of the old OHV engines again. And all 6 speed transmissions would help. A side by side in a show room comes down to looks, size when sat in, and by the sheet as in sticker on the car. So if you have the transmission, MPG, engine HP and such on paper, the side-by-side, while static will look best when you best the numbers.
Loren

m1miata

Not sure people even know Ford is still making cars. Sorry, but it is not looking too promising for Ford these days. They may wish to compare the car to the Accord and Altima. The Fusion is an also ran.
Loren

bumpy

I havent heard of any new 6 speeds for Honda, Hyundai, etc. for the 2008 model year.

The V8 Genesis gets a six-speed auto, though that may end up being sold as an early '09.

bpizzuti

Not from what I hear...Fusion is a nice vehicle that competes well with Accord, Altima, and Camry (not quite as powerful but undercuts them ALL on price, and I like Fusion's styling better personally). It's also got an AWD option which will help it in the snow belt. Remember, the Fusion is based off of the chassis of the famed (drumroll please) Mazda6.

cooterbfd

I just posted about this on another thread about America needing it's own automakers. I know it sounds frivolous, but think of it in these terms:

YOU paid to train them in the first place, and now you no longer need them short term (hopefully)

If you say bye-bye with only unemployment insurance administered by the state, mind you, you risk having them jump ship, quite possibly to a rival automaker, meaning YOU paid to train your RIVAL'S employee.

When you need them, you now must PAY to train somebody new.

I think paying them to do another (unskilled or otherwise) job is a smart idea. I know at Verizon, we have a Job Bank, although it works differently, and many older workers who were there when it was MA BELL said if it was slow, and they were about to get laid off they could take up another job, even if it was washing the fleet of vehicles, or going around cleaning up phone booths. Either way, you still got paid, and accrued seniority.

fezo

I WANT to like the Fusion. It looks great. I haven't tried one out only because I am not in the market right now. My concern is I know a few people who have rented them and were hugely disappointed.

I would love to see Chevy dealers put out a Camry, Accord and Fusion right next to their new Malibu. Let people drive all of them.

bpizzuti

I'm considering it over the Malibu, just because I really need something AWD, which leaves me SUVs, Fusion, and Subaru....don't like the Equinox very much at all, though I might consider the VUE if it's not too expensive.

m1miata

The car handles almost as good as the Mazda6, from what they say. I have not driven the Mazda6, but I did drive the Fusion, and it was OK. As a whole, as in every inch of the car, I found the Accord and Aura to be better. As for value, the Accord, after discounts and considering resale, should cost less to own than the Fusion. This is something which GM is working on. The total cost of ownership. Will the Malibu cost less than the Accord and Camry in total cost of ownership from day one to the trade-in price?

The looks of the Fusion, is pretty darn good. A bit of the big butt syndrome, but this is pandemic in the auto world. The handling is OK. The interior is not my favorite, though it is far better than say the Mustang. Other cars just seem to feel more solid and refined. It is not that a Fusion is not a good car, but more that the car is not really besting the competition in any way. The AWD may be a good thing, as you pointed out. If I go AWD, I would be going with the Subaru.
Loren

m1miata

Have you driven the Legacy yet? I have not driven one. When looking for a car, they did not have one on the lot at the time. Perhaps they sell well, or not at all :confuse:

At the moment, it looks like the Malibu could be American made mid-sized range of cars, best effort at taking on Japans offerings.
Loren

1487

The 2007 Vue has a 5 speed, that was my point. The 2008 has 6 speed with V6 engines.

"Now, let's get back to "they're coming." Has it been announced which tranny the new Malibu will have? I haven't heard anything yet, but considering Saturn is a slightly more premium brand than Chevy, they may keep the 4 speed in the Malibu to differentiate the models and justify the Aura's higher price tag. "

The Malibu will have 6 speed standard on V6 and optional on four cylinder model. It has been confirmed since January.

"So it has to be both done, and communicated, through advertising and through dealer selling-points, otherwise the investment is wasted money. "

I have never seen one TOyota ad touting a 6 speed automatic. In fact, most car ads do not reference how many gears are in the automatic.

As for GM ads, if you arent seeing them you arent watching TV. No automaker spends more on ads than GM. even if you didnt see them on TV, GM has ads in every major car magazine and many other magazines. Just open one up. Perhaps you run to the fridge during commercial breaks or just tune out ads about cars you dont like.

"BTW, I've seen GM do plenty of "silly" things. A 5 cylinder truck, canceling the Camaro, making the Aztek....never discount the silliness of a major corporation."

Say what you want, but the facts remain the same. GM has shown production 2008 models that have 6 speeds and by the end of this calendar year GM will have more non-luxury models with 6 speeds than Toyota, Hyundai, Chrysler and of course Honda. There is no way around this.

1487

"I would love to see Chevy dealers put out a Camry, Accord and Fusion right next to their new Malibu. Let people drive all of them. "

No need to compare the Fusion because its not a benchmark or sales leader. Chevy cannot be worried about the Fusion when the real customers they crave are driving Toyotas and Hondas. The Malibu already sells as well as the Fusion, GM wants the Malibu to move to the next level saleswise. While any conquest is good, I dont think GM is gunning for Ford owners with the Malibu. If you want to establish credibility to aim for the vehicles that people most associate with being top notch sedans.

fezo

Given your needs those are good choices. If you haven't driven a Subaru Legacy and it meets your needs size-wise (it's a little smaller than an Accord or Camry) you owe it to yourself to try it out. Nice handling cars. They feel more German than Japanese. Some of this gets lost on the Outbacks which are still quite nice.

1487 - I'm just thinking that in town here where we don't have a Toyota dealership (there is one 20 miles up the road) we do get people that will cross shop Chevies and Fords. The dealers are next door to each other.

Heck, when they are done with the Fusion they can just toss it on their used car lot.

You are correct, however, that their focus has to be on the Camry and Accord.

bpizzuti

I watch TV all day at work (We're required to have the news on at our datacenter) plus when I'm home. And by the way, I can see the TV from my fridge. So I'm watching plenty of TV, thank you very much, and my brain is suitably rotted for ads to embed themselves. Which means, as I said, either GM's ads aren't embedding or they aren't running, neither of which is a good thing, and both are the fault of GM . Joe Consumer doesn't always read car magazines, he reads TV Guide, watches CNN, Fox News, and the networks when he isn't watching ESPN or TNT. Joe Sixpack is sitting there waiting to be impressed by someone, and it's the company's job to go to him, not vice versa. That's advertising.

BTW, you DID see the commercial for the "World's 1st 8-speed automatic" right? That's what's called a selling point. Now, it's true that a luxury car doesn't compete, I know this. And if the other mainstream brands aren't pointing out how many gears they're using, while GM is widely deploying 6-speed automatics, that's what's called a marketing opportunity. As in 'The only car in it's class with standard 6-speed automatic!" "More gears than any of the competition!" "More gears for more fuel savings!" And other such taglines.

And my point to you is that it doesn't MATTER if GM has more non-luxury models with 6-speed automatics than the competition. What matters is they have it AND that people know about it! If no one knows about it, then you may as well not have it. That's marketing. It's not enough to just HAVE something, you have to SELL it too.

And like I said, there is a way around them having that many 6-speed models. Corporate bean-counting cost-cutters that decide they don't need to because their bonus yacht is more important than developing or selling their company's products. There's still plenty of time for GM to do plenty of dumb things to screw things up. I hope they don't, but given their track record, I'm afraid they will.