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Comments
Loren
Based on what??? One family's experience???
Again come up with some rote data that shows domestic trannies fail at a rate of 3/1 over imports......aah I didn't think you could.
Tell that to the guy who put 2 trannies in his '07 Tundra in less than 1000 miles.
with $2,500 in repair costs
With all my GM cars, I've NEVER been hit with a $2500 bill.
Not even CLOSE.
What product do want to see coming out of the GM plants? Some do not want the RWD cars. So how do cars sell in the snow belt which are RWD? Aren't those trucks and SUVs mostly RWD now? Does Chevy need a RWD Impala, or should only Pontiac go that route? Do you agree with me that one of the best characteristics of the CTS was that it was like no other car, and that GM should pursue making more unique autos instead of going toe to toe with simpler looking models, which made to perform as "just as good" in the class they are in. In a nice way, it seems to me the CTS did not out class the Bimmer in the performance, yet won over customers. Just as always IMHO.
Loren
Instead of using your small sample size experience why not use a large sample size done by experts using statistical data. Doing that GM cars are just as good/better than Toyota/Lexus. Now all GM has to do is convince the nonbelievers how good GM is. What GM needs is some real convincing data that they can advertise. Hope it comes.
they are for world wide usage.
I have to wonder, with all the technological advancements today (anti-lock brakes, stability control, traction control, on demand all wheel drive, suspension components) if we couldn't get by with more RWD cars. Has it really been that long since we owned RWD cars that we've forgotten how to drive a RWD car in foul weather??? Don't most households have more than one car, allowing for another car that is more "foul weather friendly"???
As you remember, back in the day different models catered to different classes of people (try getting power windows in that '62 Nova :P ). Nowadays the line has blurred for these luxury items, so why not cater to the classes based on what they want to drive, and how they want to drive.
So, here goes:
Chevy can be all fwd, the "American" car for the masses.
Pontiac can be all rwd, the performance division.
Saturn can be a mix, the entry level "Import alternative"
GMC: Trucks, trucks, and nothing but trucks
Buick can be all awd, an entry level LUXURY, not NEAR LUXURY, ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY car.
Cadillac can be a mix, The CADILLAC of the auto industry.
Now, aside from the Corvette, maybe GM can certify some, not all of it's dealers to be dealers for a GM performance division. Give all the divisons a chassis and say "Here, have at it" Let them come up with their own designs, their own engines, their own suspension setups, and sell them with classic names worthy of their heritage: GS,GTO,Camaro(RS/SS), maybe even 442 under the Olds name. Obviously these would sell at a premium, and be limited production, but they would at least serve as a means to get people in the dealership.
Do you still see those little Geo cars / convertibles running down the freeways? And I thought my little Miata was a bit minuscule amongst the bruisers of the highways. :surprise:
Loren
As stated above, I would say so. Because of the baseball/apple pie thing, I never liked the idea of Chevy selling "imported" cars.
Yes, Chevy could have been all FWD. I think the Impala heritage car being RWD though is just too hard to pass on. It will get loads of good press, if done correctly. I can see a case for both not going RWD and using the RWD. And I don't care what others may say, I would like to have seen a smaller Camaro. My opinion, and others can differ. The Solstice Coupe is really an eye full of candy. It should have been the original release, and in full production. Could have been an American car with the success of the Datsun Z.
push or pull, power on, and keep your greasy side down,
Loren
Chrysler's warranty is only as good as the company standing behind it...... if it's still standing when the tranny fails somewhere in the 60 to 100K range. Do you trust them to give you your money back after they cease to exist? Maybe the fine print says that their private equity buyer/investor does not assume warranty costs?
The Toyota dealers first offer on trade-in was $800 and I don't think they were joking (this is after spending all that money on repairs; it was "tip-top" as much as it could be.
I hope GM accomplishes that too, but they haven't yet. I can't wait for CR to rank all GM products on par with Toyota (or better!). When that happens, let me know.
Until that happens, I can't very well "believe" what people say on here say about the "quality gap" disappearing. I certainly will believe over a million survey filler-outters for Consumer Reports; since they seem to experience the same results my family did with all of our models (all the way down to the details of each category, like problem areas, oh yeah, that matches).
When GM does that, it'll be a good day for car lovers, because then it'll open up the market and allow for more competition for people that REQUIRE a reliable car, after knowing what it's like to have an unreliable one.
I think people that say a few problems don't matter have never owned a lemon!
Oh wait... it was a Toyota Corolla with a new grill and emblem..... DARN!
Well, I did have a transmission on a GM let go at 62K miles. Perhaps they knew of a defect, as I had heard of other premature deaths. In this case they charged, I think it was $200 and repaired the transmission, which was 2,000 miles past warranty. So all I can say is it depends on the circumstances, and having a dealership go to bat for ya. Anyway they covered all but a couple hundred. The following year, some changes were made to the car, and I am pretty sure the transmissions received an update. As for after warranty period services, it is not always black and white. Sometimes they go give, while other times they stand firm. In cases where they are not willing to be what you feel is reasonable, you can explain that you wish to stay a customer of that company if they are willing to hear your side, then if that doesn't work there are district managers to contact. If all else fails, throw up hands, get the thing repaired and move on the another brand.
I am getting the sense that you do not trust GM, and thus would not buy their cars, be it good product or bad, so why the debate over transmissions? If you are assured they will be bad and then not backed, then it leaves you with but only one choice in the matter.
I always did get a car to use while the car was in being repaired which was paid for by Olds. The only one so far not to provide a car was Ford, many years ago.
Loren
Chevy can be all fwd, the "American" car for the masses.
Pontiac can be all rwd, the performance division.
Saturn can be a mix, the entry level "Import alternative"
GMC: Trucks, trucks, and nothing but trucks
Buick can be all awd, an entry level LUXURY, not NEAR LUXURY, ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY car.
Cadillac can be a mix, The CADILLAC of the auto industry. "
Here is my revision to this list:
Chevy can be (FWD or RWD) the "American" car for the masses. With every model available in an "SS" version and then the Pontiac divsion can go away. Saving money all the way across the board.
Saturn can be a mix, the "Import alternative"
GMC: Trucks, trucks, and nothing but trucks. (Agreed)
Buick is entry level lux (should have Enclave, RWD new Impala clone, scaled down CTS)
Cadillac should continue on with the DTS going RWD w/AWD as an option on all models.
Just my opinions, I really feel GM needs to free up some money by dropping another division. I know a lot of purists would hate to see Pontiac go, but how many versions of the same car do you need? The same thing can be acheived with option packages and smart marketing, saving $$ for the development of new things. Plus doesn't Chevy have the largest dealer network of the group to make this happen?
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Buick Enclave
Buick Lucerne
Cadillac CTS
Chevrolet Corvette
Pearls:
Buick Lacrosse (Girlfriend really loves hers. I like it.)
Cadillac DTS
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac SRX
Cadillac STS
Cadillac XLR
Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Silverado
GMC Sierra
Pontiac Solstice
Saturn Aura
Saturn Sky
Average:
Chevrolet Aveo (Mom likes hers.)
Chevrolet Avalanche
Chevrolet Cobalt (Love the coupe!)
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet HHR
Chevrolet Malibu
Chevrolet Suburban
Chevrolet Tahoe
Chevrolet Trailblazer (Friend loves his)
GMC Acadia
GMC Envoy
GMC Savana
GMC Yukon
Hummer H2
Hummer H3
Pontiac G5
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Vibe
Saab 9-3
Saab 9-5
Saab 9-7
Saturn Outlook
Saturn Vue
Dross:
Buick Rainier (Old Bravada diguised as Buick)
Buick Rendezvous (Aztek's prettier yet still ugly sister)
Buick Terraza (NO BUICK MINIVANS!!! Joan Crawford voice)
Chevrolet Colorado
Chevrolet Equinox (Chinese Engine!!! AAAGHHH!!!)
Chevrolet Monte Carlo (Old)
Chevrolet Uplander
GMC Canyon
Pontiac Grand Prix (Old)
Pontiac Torrent (See Equinox)
Saturn Ion (Central Instrument panel kills it, but Toyota always gets a pass on this stupid feature in its minicars)
Saturn Relay
1. Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
2. Buick Roadmaster Limited
3. Lexus LS400
4. Lincoln Town Car
5. Mercedes Benz S-Class
6. Mercury Grand Marquis LS
7. Chevrolet Caprice Classic
8. Ford Crown Victoria LX
9. Infiniti Q45
10. BMW 7-Series
Are you kidding buying an 06 Tarus over the 07 Camry? In my opinion the 06 Tarus is not competitive with the 07 Camry thats why the Tarus turned into a popular rental car because it was not competitive anymore with the Camry, Accord, and Altima(02+ models.) If you want to say the 06+ Ford Fusion is competitive I could understand that but the 06 Tarus competitive with the 07 Camry? No.
Why are you blaming GM's negelect on the pasenger car segment on a Camry? GM should be blaming themselves for that. They banked on gas prices(with SUV's) not going up and they lost. It their fault plain and simple(GM's) not Toyota's fault. The Aura is good yeah but they didn;t offer a 4 cyl engine when they put the car on the market and that was GM's fault too.
No, the Civic does outsell the Corolla I think but Toyota just adds in Matrix sales numbers in with the Corolla so it looks like the Corolla outsold the Civic but I don;t think it does once you take Matrix sales numbers out of the equation. As for the Sentra/Versa the Sentra/Versa the Sentra is a dircect competitor to the Civic, Mazda 3, Hyundai Elantra, Kia Spectra, Ford Focus, Chevy Cobalt, and Corolla where as the Versa is a direct competititor to the Honda Fit, Chevy Aveo, and Toyota Yaris.
Maybe Honda's just losing its edge a bit compared to Toyota? It's happening with the Camry, too, which has been blowing the Accord away in sales for awhile now.
Yes Camry does outsell Accord though.
Yeah but the 2 last months of bad sales for the GM banner is not part of the plan that GM had for to revitlilize its fortunes in the US market because Paul Ballew who works for GM said something to this effect in the one of the press releases(Detroitnews.com)on having to do with last months sales overall for GM.
Don;t forget about the 7% sales tax that goes to Uncle Sam.
I would never buy a Caliber because the interior is terrible. At least the interior in the Cobalt is ok. The Focus used to look ok(05-07 model years) but the 08 looks terrible and the car hasn't been fully made over since its debut for the 2000 model year but hey you got a good deal on the car. I would probably take the Focus(05-07)over the 03+ Corolla but not the Civic and Mazda 3.
I would probably take the Mazda 3 in the compact car segement over any competitor.
More likely that the 70's Caddy would have floated, wallowed or careened into the corolla. But, an alert corolla driver would have a chance to maneuver out of the way.
Toyota releases sales numbers for all their vehicle just check out auto channel.com with news dating August 2,2007 and all of toyota's/lexus vehicles vehicles are listed in their sales statistics under "Toyota reporting July 2007 sales".
Didn't GM put RWD on hold for a large size Impala?
Don't understand clamor by some for RWD in cars. While ok for performance oriented such as Vette, Solstice, Sky, Mustang, etc, there are mostly disadvantages for RWD vs FWD for everyday cars that vast majority of drivers need.
Generally, a fwd car will outperform (dry handling, traction in ice/snow/rain) a rwd car of similar weight and engine size. A fwd is also a more efficient package.
Don't see that Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia are moving to RWD for their mass market cars.
I know the Versa is "supposed" to compete with stuff like the FIT, Aveo, Yaris, etc, but to me it feels bigger than those cars. I really view it as more of a Sentra hatchback, although I realize there is a sedan version of the Versa, as well. Still, it felt pretty big inside to me. Comfort and room-wise, I'd put it ahead of my uncle's '03 Corolla. The seating position was about as cramped up front, but the Versa's back seat was HUGE! Typical small-car narrow, but legroom would rival that of many mid- and even full-sized cars.
may be true but CR liked the ride and handling of the Silverado more than Tundra. Didnt help in the final scoring though. Very curious.
here is the thing, since you agree with CR's results you dont care about how they arrive at those results. I dont care who CR ranks first IF they can show us how they score the vehicles. They cant and imports always come out on top and that is annoying. Since GM vehicles are amongst the domestics that often do poorly in CR comparos it shouldnt be surprising that CR's bias is often discussed here.
You and others can speculate all day about how CR ranked the Tundra first but its nothing more than speculation. Based on the test results and their actual comments there is no indication as to why the Silverado ame in 2nd or why the Avalanche outscored the Silvy by a large margin. It just doesnt make sense.
that probably explains why you arent running the times. People with vendettas cannot run media outlets and use them for their personal missions. Bad move and it would get you fired.
"The only thing biased about this story is GM, not the writer Dan Neil. To a lot of people GM cars like the G6 do show tremendous incompetence and lack of ability in designing, building, assembling, and executing decent to good quality vehicles. Dan Neil has no incentive to be biased unless someone paid him to write the article. "
I'm 99% sure you never read the article and dont even know what I am talking about but decided to comment to back a GM basher because thats what you do best. The article was a joke and inaccurate and had nothing to do with the G6 at all. He was really using the space to launch an attack against Lutz and Wagoner for no reason. The G6 isnt "crap" by any objective means. Only a import fanboy can make that kind of statement and not worry about the truthfulness of the statement. Even if the G6 isnt your cup of tea its competitive with other midsize cars and worlds better than the Grand Am. The owners of the car like it a lot according to Edmunds consumer ratings and it is better regarded than the Camry. I think thats means more to me than your unfounded comments.
Dan Neil is a SoCal based writer who drools over anything and everything from overseas and makes it plain that he doent care for Detroit products. I just read a review of his of the MKX and he basically says its very competitive with the RX and costs less but it's a Lincoln and he was embarrassed to tell people that it was OK because no one would take it seriously in CA. Dan Neil ranks the image of the car first, the abilities 2nd. This is why he could care less about how good or bad most GM products are.
"GM would rather sell crap than junk a poorly designed model as they should be, and never put on the sales floor. They should go from assembly line to the car crusher; direct!"
are you talking about the G6 here? LOL, you are being a little dramatic and speaking based on your intense hatred of GM instead of looking at the facts.
I hope GM accomplishes that too, but they haven't yet. I can't wait for CR to rank all GM products on par with Toyota (or better!). When that happens, let me know.
Until that happens, I can't very well "believe" what people say on here say about the "quality gap" disappearing. I certainly will believe over a million survey filler-outters for Consumer Reports; since they seem to experience the same results my family did with all of our models (all the way down to the details of each category, like problem areas, oh yeah, that matches).
When GM does that, it'll be a good day for car lovers, because then it'll open up the market and allow for more competition for people that REQUIRE a reliable car, after knowing what it's like to have an unreliable one. "
your commentary really exposes your ignorance about quality and statistics. Even CR shows you (if you bother to look) than the quality gap has closed. Hell, they even tell you that in their annual auto issue. They tell you the average number of problems per 100 vehicles for Asian, German and US brands and they also MAKE IT CLEAR that the gap is SHRINKING contrary to what you are saying. American cars today are as reliable as "reliable" Japanses cars of a few years back but CR moves the bar up each year so that the same low problem rate that got you a red circle 10 years ago gets your a clear circle now. The Asians are at the top but the gap between the Asian cars and US cars is like 5 problems per hundred vehicles or something like that. People like you can get beyond CR's stupid circle ratings system and come away with the conclusion that American cars arent reliable. A below average rating in CR does NOT mean a car is unreliable and and if you read CR's methodology you will see what I mean. I just cant believe people are this clueless about what CR's results mean in the big picture. If the average problem rate in a category is 5 per 100 cars a vehicle with 7 problems per 100 cars may end up with a dark circle in CR. The whole reason CR uses the cryptic circile system instead of showing you problem rates is that they want ot make it appear that there is a huge gap between the best and worst vehicles. Even though CR's readers are showing Japanese cars to be the best via their surveys, they are NOT showing American cars to be unreliable.
To suggest that we are still waiting for the day when GM can field reliable vehicles is absurd and totally contradictory to the data we have from JD power and CR, not to mention anecdotal experiences mentioned here. Its time to join up with reality and stop living in the past. EVen your much loved CR doesnt support your off the wall claims about american cars being crap.
It is bigger than those cars. It's every bit as big as the original CR-V, just with less ground clearance and no AWD option.
Like I said, say a car is junk, point out why, that's fine. A spade is a spade. But write an opinion full of half truths and innuendo, and allow no response, and that's just wrong. "
You are 100% correct. Friedman, Neil and others are cowards as are the editors who supervise them- its a totally one sided game. the NYTime wouldnt let GM respond in full to a baseless attack by Friedman and GM ended up not agreeing to allowing them to print an edited version that removed most of GM's most poignant responses to Friedman's charges. USA today just published a column trashing the Big 3 for not backing the 35mpg CAFE standards and then they wouldnt let Chrysler have its response printed in full. I believe Lutz was able to get a short rebuttal printed. Unlike the original column LUtzs respnse was 100% factual and noted Toyota sells more Tundras than Prius. CR is the same way, they would never allow one of thier real critics to get space in their magazine nor would they try to respond to the criticisms that have been made about how their acquire data or score cars.
What is really sad is that we have many people who will go to great lengths to defend these idiots simply because they are attacking the Big 3. If these same types of articles were written about other subjects people would have no problem noting how absurd these writers are being.
Both in that you won't need the warranty for 100K, and if you do, they'll cover it anyway. "
Can you show us that in writing? Is that why people with camrys are having Toyota dealers tell them "its supposed to do that" when they complain about their messed up 6 speed trannies?
Your worship of Toyota and Honda is bizarre to say the least. No company is going to replace parts after the warranty period every time. They may do it some times to avoid a recall or bad press, but it all depends.
Implied? What does that mean? If they are so good why dont they offer best in class warranties? You are saying Dodge trannies are trash but Chrysler is the one with the lifetime powertrain warranty, not Toyota. Why is that?
why cant Toyota/Honda give us an unlimited, transferrable powetrain warranty since their components will last 300k miles easily?
I would think you would verify that for yourself since most dealers dont know squat about cars. Since you dont believe me check it out on Honda's website. There is no sports suspension for the accord and contrary to what Loren might say the Accords handling limits are actually pretty modest compared to the 6 and some other cars in this class.
funny how most import lovers say that but cant show us any proof that JD power's results are incorrect. JD powers allows manufacturers to use their name in ads if the manufacturers chose to tout the results. That in no way means JD powers allows manufacturers to manipulate the data. First of all, JD powers can make money from whomever comes in first in its surveys so it has no incentive to be biased- as far as they are concerned it doesnt matter who comes out on top.
CR surveys are sent to biased import owners who happen to be subscribers- I wouldnt be surprised if 75% of CR readers drive imports. JD powers surveys are sent randomly to new car buyers and thus they get a much more legit result in the end. Its ridiculous to poll the same people over and over again to get reliability data. can anyone else think of a poll (political or otherwise) that isnt random and is considered legit? I cant but somehow CR gets a free pass.
And doesn't the competition do the same to you on year 5, day 1 or sooner. There is no legal remedy to getting your warranty extended by complaint. All manufacturers will work with you to some extent but that matters dealer to dealer. My '98 Astro had a tranny problem. I talked to Chev and they wanted $735 to fix it because they knew what it was. They said after I paid they would submit for a partial reimbursement from GM. No guarantees. Astro was 12k out of warranty. Went to a trans repair shop who were also familiar with my particular problem and they fixed it for $275 out the door, including a $105 complete fluid and filter change with conditioner. I stay away from dealers in general because the turnover of mechanics. If someone has owned the same shop for 25 years, they usually know their stuff. If also honest, thats even better. Plenty of people have been taken for $1300-1800 for my exact same tranny problem by dealers and by other shops. Why should I think Toyota will extend a warranty to me that I turned down when I was offered it at time of initial purchase?
You get what you pay for :surprise:
I have to admit, the G6 is a vast improvement over the Grand Am. I had a rental Grand Am for about a week and the interior was crude though I did dig the cool red backlighting.