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It sounded to me as though it is very similar th the GM family plan or the Ford plan.
Nortsr
I was thinking along the same lines as bumpy: I wonder what the #1 model being traded in on an Enclave is...
I can hazard a guess on what type of vehicle first and then go from there. First it would be either a CUV/SUV/Minivan. Most likely due to the size(large) and number of passengers (7/8) and luggage space (less than minivan but more than SUV) and mpg (more than SUV but less than minivan) and the price of the vehicle (higher than minivan but lower than SUV's) and that SUV sales are going down and that there are not that many older CUV's out there to trade in it is probably a large SUV. A LOT of assumptions!! So, if we delete all GM products, it is probably a Ford SUV. BUT it could also be a Chrysler minivan or import minivan if the buyer wants to get away from the minivan stigma. Heck I do not know but will try and find out. Best news would be if it was a Lexus but I doubt it.
Originally, GM said it expected the crossovers to attract buyers moving out of big, low mileage full-size SUVs, but that doesn’t seem to be the case with the Enclave. "We aren't seeing as many full size SUVs in trade as we are people moving out of minivans," Hill said.
The average age of the Enclave buyer has been 53, far below the average age — 65 — of the typical Buick buyer.
And there's a $1,000 rebate on the Enclave for buyers who trade in a competitor's vehicle.
Looks are subjective. I like the Accord as much as the Aura looks wise, and prefer the lower door window sills on the Accord. The interior of the Accord is a tad richer, IMHO.
An XE base, if you can fine a base XE or XR on the lot, is perhaps a little quicker than is the i4 Accord. I assume those looking for economy to want the best gas mileage too. So I would say the i4 would be the way to go. Most of the cars on the lot at Saturn in more base form cost extra once you eliminate the plastic hub caps, or if you was to choose non-Korean stock tires. Most have some preferred group and thus cost around $22,500 or about the same price I paid for the Accord SEV6 which is a SOHC 244 HP engine, and has a 6 CD changer, and stability control as standard. Honda gave me much more on the trade-in, thus any savings at the time on say a base XR, which would have been $22,500 was completely lost. And they would have had to bring a car in from another dealership. All things consider, resale and all, the Accord SE was less expensive. I like the Aura about as well, except the slightly taller doors, the foot emergency brake, and a couple of little things. The engine on the XR is a kick, as is the transmission. Handling is about the same as the Accord, though steering / handling may be a tad bit to the favor of the Accord. The Aura was a new look and the thing really is quick, so I actually did go there first, on the day I bought the Accord, to see what they would offer.
As for the i4 Accord SE, considering an even lower price, after say a $1,500 off, and resale value, it too would be less expensive, though not quite the bargain of the V6 SE, which adds stability control too. If a person was shopping for a stick shift, they won't be able to shop the Aura period. Thus another problem. And I may add, the i4 is far from a weak engine. It loves to rev baby!
If they want the Aura to sell, put more base models on the lots, and lower the price. Personally, the XR is more upscale and the direction Saturn should head. Leave the base, old stuff off at the Buick or Pontiac lots where they do all that fleet selling.
So in conclusion: New Malibu will take away most of what customers they have now for the Aura. Some more strange strategies for GM.
And that's the bottom line,
Loren
Glad to know GM is coming up with safe 4 cyl models. I will test-drive! I am shopping for a 4 cyl midsize sedan to replace my second car which is a Mazda Protege (so far Accord is on top of my shopping list, and I am considering Altima, Sonata and Mazda6/ Fusion as well; and if gas price hits $4, I will consider Camry Hybrid as well).
Hope Malibu will give me a compelling reason to not go for Accord. I will search Edmunds and other sites/ forums for safety ratings, fuel efficiency and fleet sales info. While test-driving, I will be looking for light-weight feeling, easy-handling, responsive-brakes and a clean interior with simple controls for everything including stereo. I don't expect Malibu to have Accord's resale value - so, I expect GM to give me a lower APR. I own an Accord now and pay 4.9% APR to Honda for 5 year loan. So, I will be looking for 2.9% or less on 5 year.
It's time to see a Chevy dealer again (not all of whom are bad, while some are horrible).
How about my entire (directly related) families vehicle history (mainly my parents and older brother)?
1982 or so Honda Accord (flawless until totalled in rear-end impact collision at high speed; car still ran and was driveable for weeks, we think the insurance company made out like bandits fraudulantly, and fixed the car to sell it for way more money than they gave my parents). No transmission problems.
1980 or so Audi something or other wagon (before Audi became "luxury." All kinds of problems, but no drive train issues.
1995 Camry - no problems with the drivetrain, just needed some new motor mounts at around 90K and 8 years of age. Otherwise, flawless.
1993 or 94 Toyota 4Runner - flawless
2001 Camry - flawless
T100 - flawless
Tundra - flawless
My Accord from '03 had a few very minor cosmetic issues, a powerseat hiccup, and tranny replacement (covered under warranty after warranty expired).
My wife's '92 Civic, '05 Civic, and '07 Civic have been flawless in their drivetrains, '07 in for driver power window replacement (strange huh?).
My '06 Audi A3 has been flawless mechanically and electrically. Fantastic.
Now onto the Dodge. Failed transmission at about 60K, not covered under warranty, Dodge didn't/wouldn't/hasn't paid for it to date. Failed head gaskets on engine happened around 45-50K miles, no one at Dodge stepped up to pay for that either. I could list 20 other problems the vehicle had in the first 65,000 miles easy.
Sounds like to me... The domestics may have more than 3 times as many failed trannies per mile than the imports...... but I know you'll counter with "well, you got the one bad domestic." Funny how CR warned us the domestic would be bad, and so did my father..... the warnings came true.... coincidence....I think not.
1) Any repairs prior to 6 years or 100K miles (I'll pay for recommended maintenance at scheduled intervals; you pay the rest).
2) The loss in gas mileage vs. a comparable Honda/Toyota with comparable power.
3) The added true cost to own, due to terrible resale and #2 above.
4) The costs of rental vehicles while the domestic is in the shop all of the time. Add in mileage/gas costs for going to and from the shop. Add in $50/hour for my wasted time dealing with the shops and driving time and tow trucks.
If any of you domestic crusaders out there will do all of the above (under written contract), I'll buy myself a used $10,000 or so domestic car soon.
Sounds like pure driver error to me. If anything, down shifting will slow you down?
I am not sure that buying used cars is a good idea. My brother had two Honda's, both of which aged poorly. The first one did run to the end, but would no longer pass the emissions tests. The CR-V was totaled on the rear bumper of a domesic...
Loren
Anyway, Loren is right, driving a Taurus around would be MISERY! I don't know about mystery... maybe the mystery of when and how many times it will break down in any given month? :P :lemon:
Loren
Loren
:shades: Loren
I think that the Impala and other RWD sedans will be based on the Camaro platform, and not imported from Aussieland.
Loren
My Accord was built in Ohio, the engine built in USA, as well as most of the parts. The car I traded in was a Chrysler PT, but was made in Mexico. Very well screwed together, I may add. Mexicans did a very good job at that plant. Ford is also having success with the Fusion made in Mexico. The Astra is coming to America, made in Germany, I guess. Opel has been owned by GM since before WWII. World market for cars, means investments around the globe. My first car was an Opel by GM, and now I have a Honda. Doesn't mean the next car may not be something made in USA, or a GM made in Mexico or Germany -- heck Australia. I do hope the UAW negotiations work out so it is still possible for GM and the other Big Two to still make a lot of what they sell in USA. And hopefully our government will start to do what is in the best interest of its citizens and show push for more production of many products once again in USA. Let's start building our infrastructure up to modern standards, or at the least the original standards, and stop wasting our money in other countries.
Loren
Wonder if the Impala and Pontiacs get the high beltline , chop top look too?
Curious as a cat,
Loren
Shouldn't Honda read your post and then find out GM's interest rate and then charge 4% over it for all Honda loans? GM is at 7% so Honda should be worth 11%.
As cars are made better and better, there is only a finite amount of repair dollars that can be saved with further improvement. In the case of my unreliable 98 astro, it is $7-800 lifetime. As gas gets more and more expensive, it becomes unpredictable whether 150k miles in a Tundra will cost $37,000 or $68,000 to fuel up. I don't see the relevance of so much concentration on the finite side. Repairs are only a few percent of gas.
I would consider challenging the odds as too risky, as results can be shocking!
Loren
So you are saying all the parts to build the USA built engine, and the transmissions and seats and all came from abroad? And the total sum paid to workers here at the suppliers and assembly account for just $500 per car? Amazing. Don't believe it. You have got me somewhat curious though about the Honda Supplier Network USA, I guess you could call it. I see the air conditioning is from Torrence, CA, but says Honda USA.
Why would they ship over so many parts, then funnel them though their network supplies, then onward to build the car? Wouldn't that ultimately cost them more? Quality control perhaps -- maybe I could see some things, like the engine. If cost is the factor, why then not Mexico to build the parts?
I still don't see how this exports all the dollars from the sale of the cars here in USA. Let's assume you are 100% correct in this matter. Are you then suggesting that people in say Europe or Australia should not buy a GM vehicle since some of the money ultimately goes to USA GM? And in Mexico or Brazil, should all the money made stay within their borders? What I am trying to say is that in a World market place, all companies are going to seek out ways to sell around the globe, and bring whatever monies they can home. I don't think Honda is bringing it all home, any more than GM is brining all the money on home from say Opel division.
Loren
'75 Buick Apollo: Tranny shifter cable, thats it
'77 Electra: Pwr seat motor and starter. Owned for 9 yrs, got slammed by a '69 skylark, put a new nose on it and ran it for 2 more yrs. Sold it for $1000 and new owner ran it until 1998.
'86 S-10: Blown head gasket replaced under warranty
'88 Regal: Rear calipers replaced 3 times in 14 yrs rebuild instrument panel (warr.) fuel pump (warr)
'94 Safari: Flawless
'96 SL-2: Flawless
'98 Jimmy: Rear glass latch
'91 K 2500 Fuel tank and shock bracket at 120k starter at 110k alternator at 100k
'99 PK Av ultra: mass air fl. sensor at 85k broken door handle, and rotors
'04 Ranier: Steering rack repl under warr (didn't fail, tsb for vibration) flasher, and cosmetics, All under warranty.
Gee, that's ONE LESS TRANNY than you. I didn't even mention my father's '88 pk ave which ran flawlessly from purchase in 1990 w/ 16k until we replaced the alternator 100k and steering rack 150k. My aunt drives it now.
Most places in the US do not have roads based on foot paths.
High beltline is pretty much the standard now on all new vehicles.
you must not read the magazine. They dont like much that GM makes aside from the vette and CTS-V. When they praise a GM product, its pretty significant in my book because it doesnt happen too often.
wrong again, saturn buyers typically dont look at other GM brands. Most people who are considering the Aura would not buy a Malibu. Its a simple concept, but you seem to have trouble grasping it for some reason. The Malibu isnt going to do much to affect Aura sales. Same way the Equinox isnt going to hurt sales of the 2008 Vue.
I don't understand why would Saturn price their cars higher than the Accord and Camry when the the Camry and Accord are the benchmarks when it comes to midsize sedans. It would be one thing if the Aura was a huge hit, which it isn't. The Aura is a remarkable step forward for GM but by no means does it blow away the competition.
Merely by bringing up the family plans aren't you admitting that the Aura is priced too high and not a good buy at that price that the general public pays for one?
information about the Malibus handling, safety and performance can be determined by looking at the Aura. As for the radio controls and ergomics, you can also look at the Aura. Most GM models have the same head unit and it has gotten good reviews. I would expect the Malibu's resale to be closer to the Accord than you think, but I woulndt expect to get 2.9APR when the car is new. You may have to wait a while for such an offer. I think the Malibu's interior is definitely comparable with anything in this price range.
can you tell me where you are getting this pricing info from? I dont understand why people compare prices without taking into account incentives and EQUIPMENT. The Aura is NOT more expensive than Camry or accord when you look at its equipment levels. Its actually several thousand cheaper. The Camry SE doesnt come with a lot of stuff for $25k, check the standard equipment for yourself. A Camry SE loaded up to compare with a loaded XR is about $30k, I priced it before.
you must not read the magazine. They dont like much that GM makes aside from the vette and CTS-V. When they praise a GM product, its pretty significant in my book because it doesnt happen too often.
Have read it for many years. Seems that GM gets along well with Car and Driver in that they support the magazine with their advertising dollars.
I believe that Car and Driver has been favorable to more than just 2 GM models (Vette, CTS-V) over the years. And, when Car and Driver did not care for or pointed out some things on GM cars that it did not like, that does not make them a "hater". Car and Driver gives its opinions, likes and dislikes, about all brands of vehicles, not just GM.
Would GM give "any" advertising dollars to Car and Drive if they thought that the magazine was a "hater" and did not play fair?
Some posters on this board need to wake up and realize that GM, through Bob Lutz, has publicly talked about GM's problems. Lutz has said that there were problems and thinks that these are past. So, if a car magazine in past issues had pointed things out that it did not like about GM models at times, seems that is in line with what GM itself has said.
4 1/2 inches may not seem like much, but to put it in perspective, that's like going from a '71 Camaro to a '71 Caprice.
“Buick has been in China since 1912. There it is a revered automotive badge, especially among the country’s upper income groups who demand top quality and hold prestige and honor – they call it face – as sacrosanct. Buick’s status in China probably surprises many Americans, as it surprised me on several visits to Shanghai General Motors, a 50-50 joint venture between GM and Shanghai Automotive Industry, established in 1997. I was shocked beyond belief by China’s acceptance of Buicks. Moreover, I was stunned by the superior quality of the Chinese Buicks I drove (on a Shanghai GM test track) and saw. Those Buicks were better than any Buicks I’d ever driven or seen in the United States. They were solid and whisper quiet. Fit and finish were impeccable. Interior craftsmanship – the way materials blended with one another; the impressive attention to detail on the smallest items, such as the feel and weight of glove compartment doors was awe inspiring
I’ve driven the 2008 Buick Enclave CXL, the grandest of tall wagons from any manufacturer, probably the best Buick ever built. It has everything the upper-income segment of the Chinese market expects ..We like the Enclave CXL. But, what we like best is that GM that has so much “face” in China at long last has decided to save it in America. Welcome home, GM. Welcome back, Buick.”
If what Brown is saying about Chinese built Buicks is accurate, looks like Chinese with GM guidance, can build very good cars. Wonder if GM has strategy to soon build in China with cheaper labor and export to U.S.
Brown said that he was stunned by the superior quality of the Chinese Buicks that he drove. He said that those Buicks were better than any Buicks he had ever driven or seen in the United States. The rest of the article then describes how the new Enclave is very good and that it is up to the level of the Chinese Buicks.
Anybody else from U.S. that has gone to China and drove Buicks there and had similar experience to Brown?
Maybe not the chopped top, but to my way of thinking, the Impala got the high beltine back from the get-go back in 2000. Its predecessor, the Lumina, had a low beltline and windows so big and tall that they couldn't even get the back window to roll down halfway!
I looked at the Impala around the same time that I bought my Intrepid, and I remember the high beltline being one of the things I didn't like about it. It felt kinda like sitting in a bathtub.
Looking back though, at the time, the Intrepid even seemed like it had a high beltline, compared to the '89 Gran Fury that I had been driving before it.
I agree too, on the parking spaces. While the actual streets, highways, etc, may not be getting any narrower, it does seem like pull-in parking spaces are getting tighter, and parallel spots are getting shorter. 14 years ago, I worked in the same building I'm working in now, although I've moved several times in the interim. I remember the first time we were here, I'd drive my grandmother's '85 LeSabre to work sometimes, and had no trouble putting its 218" of heft in the parallel spots out front. At some point though, they re-striped the parallel spots and the parking lot as well. I remember a few years back trying to parallel park my '79 New Yorker out in front, and that's when I noticed the car would not physically fit between the lines. It would hang over several inches on either end.
Once they re-striped the parking lot, you could barely see where the old stripes had been. The new spaces were about 6 inches narrower.
Loren