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  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    I really don't know if Japanese auto makers offer employees or dealers employees a discount...but.. in a Hyundai forum, (Korean automaker)they offer discounts as one of the posters father works at a Hyundai plant here (USA) and the son just bought a new Hyundai Tuscon and explained fully as to what he exactly paid due to the aforementioned.
    It sounded to me as though it is very similar th the GM family plan or the Ford plan.
    Nortsr
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I doubt it is the Rendezvouz. Too much of a price hike for oler people on a retirement budget.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    What is particularly gratifying to GM is that more than 40% of buyers of the three vehicles are new to the brand. Only 20% of Enclave buyers are trading in a Buick,

    I was thinking along the same lines as bumpy: I wonder what the #1 model being traded in on an Enclave is...

    I can hazard a guess on what type of vehicle first and then go from there. First it would be either a CUV/SUV/Minivan. Most likely due to the size(large) and number of passengers (7/8) and luggage space (less than minivan but more than SUV) and mpg (more than SUV but less than minivan) and the price of the vehicle (higher than minivan but lower than SUV's) and that SUV sales are going down and that there are not that many older CUV's out there to trade in it is probably a large SUV. A LOT of assumptions!! So, if we delete all GM products, it is probably a Ford SUV. BUT it could also be a Chrysler minivan or import minivan if the buyer wants to get away from the minivan stigma. Heck I do not know but will try and find out. Best news would be if it was a Lexus but I doubt it.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Found this quote:
    Originally, GM said it expected the crossovers to attract buyers moving out of big, low mileage full-size SUVs, but that doesn’t seem to be the case with the Enclave. "We aren't seeing as many full size SUVs in trade as we are people moving out of minivans," Hill said.

    The average age of the Enclave buyer has been 53, far below the average age — 65 — of the typical Buick buyer.

    And there's a $1,000 rebate on the Enclave for buyers who trade in a competitor's vehicle.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Have you driven all those cars? I tested the i4 Accord, SEV6 Accord, XE Aura and the XR Aura.

    Looks are subjective. I like the Accord as much as the Aura looks wise, and prefer the lower door window sills on the Accord. The interior of the Accord is a tad richer, IMHO.

    An XE base, if you can fine a base XE or XR on the lot, is perhaps a little quicker than is the i4 Accord. I assume those looking for economy to want the best gas mileage too. So I would say the i4 would be the way to go. Most of the cars on the lot at Saturn in more base form cost extra once you eliminate the plastic hub caps, or if you was to choose non-Korean stock tires. Most have some preferred group and thus cost around $22,500 or about the same price I paid for the Accord SEV6 which is a SOHC 244 HP engine, and has a 6 CD changer, and stability control as standard. Honda gave me much more on the trade-in, thus any savings at the time on say a base XR, which would have been $22,500 was completely lost. And they would have had to bring a car in from another dealership. All things consider, resale and all, the Accord SE was less expensive. I like the Aura about as well, except the slightly taller doors, the foot emergency brake, and a couple of little things. The engine on the XR is a kick, as is the transmission. Handling is about the same as the Accord, though steering / handling may be a tad bit to the favor of the Accord. The Aura was a new look and the thing really is quick, so I actually did go there first, on the day I bought the Accord, to see what they would offer.

    As for the i4 Accord SE, considering an even lower price, after say a $1,500 off, and resale value, it too would be less expensive, though not quite the bargain of the V6 SE, which adds stability control too. If a person was shopping for a stick shift, they won't be able to shop the Aura period. Thus another problem. And I may add, the i4 is far from a weak engine. It loves to rev baby!

    If they want the Aura to sell, put more base models on the lots, and lower the price. Personally, the XR is more upscale and the direction Saturn should head. Leave the base, old stuff off at the Buick or Pontiac lots where they do all that fleet selling.

    So in conclusion: New Malibu will take away most of what customers they have now for the Aura. Some more strange strategies for GM.

    And that's the bottom line,
    Loren
  • altestaltest Member Posts: 79
    Unbelievable :surprise: :mad:
  • altestaltest Member Posts: 79
    Toyota has improved its trucks over years. There is no magic wand. GM also needs time to catch up in the 4 cyl compact/ midsize car and car-based ute segments.

    Glad to know GM is coming up with safe 4 cyl models. I will test-drive! I am shopping for a 4 cyl midsize sedan to replace my second car which is a Mazda Protege (so far Accord is on top of my shopping list, and I am considering Altima, Sonata and Mazda6/ Fusion as well; and if gas price hits $4, I will consider Camry Hybrid as well).

    Hope Malibu will give me a compelling reason to not go for Accord. I will search Edmunds and other sites/ forums for safety ratings, fuel efficiency and fleet sales info. While test-driving, I will be looking for light-weight feeling, easy-handling, responsive-brakes and a clean interior with simple controls for everything including stereo. I don't expect Malibu to have Accord's resale value - so, I expect GM to give me a lower APR. I own an Accord now and pay 4.9% APR to Honda for 5 year loan. So, I will be looking for 2.9% or less on 5 year.

    It's time to see a Chevy dealer again (not all of whom are bad, while some are horrible).
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    With Chevy's stinking resale value, I'd expect more than just 2% less on financing, I'd expect at least $2,000 more in rebates and cash back in addition to a lower financing option with the Honda.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Where do you get your assinine facts (see what I mean, Loren)????????

    How about my entire (directly related) families vehicle history (mainly my parents and older brother)?

    1982 or so Honda Accord (flawless until totalled in rear-end impact collision at high speed; car still ran and was driveable for weeks, we think the insurance company made out like bandits fraudulantly, and fixed the car to sell it for way more money than they gave my parents). No transmission problems.

    1980 or so Audi something or other wagon (before Audi became "luxury." All kinds of problems, but no drive train issues.

    1995 Camry - no problems with the drivetrain, just needed some new motor mounts at around 90K and 8 years of age. Otherwise, flawless.

    1993 or 94 Toyota 4Runner - flawless

    2001 Camry - flawless

    T100 - flawless
    Tundra - flawless

    My Accord from '03 had a few very minor cosmetic issues, a powerseat hiccup, and tranny replacement (covered under warranty after warranty expired).

    My wife's '92 Civic, '05 Civic, and '07 Civic have been flawless in their drivetrains, '07 in for driver power window replacement (strange huh?).

    My '06 Audi A3 has been flawless mechanically and electrically. Fantastic.

    Now onto the Dodge. Failed transmission at about 60K, not covered under warranty, Dodge didn't/wouldn't/hasn't paid for it to date. Failed head gaskets on engine happened around 45-50K miles, no one at Dodge stepped up to pay for that either. I could list 20 other problems the vehicle had in the first 65,000 miles easy.

    Sounds like to me... The domestics may have more than 3 times as many failed trannies per mile than the imports...... but I know you'll counter with "well, you got the one bad domestic." Funny how CR warned us the domestic would be bad, and so did my father..... the warnings came true.... coincidence....I think not.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • chetjchetj Member Posts: 324
    i would buy a 06 taurus for 10k and pocket the extra $10,000 that i wouldve paid for a 07 flawless camry...my bro in laws flawless camrys timing belt broke up in canada...of course my cavalier has 162 k and has a timing chain that never breaks...american cars are underrated and pretty good values now..try one put you might be surprised and save a few thousand
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    The Camry is a premium midsize economy family sedan. The ES350 is a luxury sedan. The Avalon is a full size sedan.... All different.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    How about I'll try a used American auto if you will pay for a few things......

    1) Any repairs prior to 6 years or 100K miles (I'll pay for recommended maintenance at scheduled intervals; you pay the rest).

    2) The loss in gas mileage vs. a comparable Honda/Toyota with comparable power.

    3) The added true cost to own, due to terrible resale and #2 above.

    4) The costs of rental vehicles while the domestic is in the shop all of the time. Add in mileage/gas costs for going to and from the shop. Add in $50/hour for my wasted time dealing with the shops and driving time and tow trucks.

    If any of you domestic crusaders out there will do all of the above (under written contract), I'll buy myself a used $10,000 or so domestic car soon.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    My brother had a Honda CR-V that needed the engine rebuilt at about 70,000 miles... :sick:
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    what are you defining as "American"? Honda, Toyota, BMWs etc. are built in America. How are they not American?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Sorry, but how does a transmission downshifting from 4th to 1st cause you to go over a curb and nearly hit a tree???

    Sounds like pure driver error to me. If anything, down shifting will slow you down?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    I guess I'd argue they are not designed, engineered, and conceived by American companies??? I'm well aware that Honda and Toyota build very good "American" built vehicles. For the sake of argument, when I say american car I mean one of the big 3....
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I am not so sure that the Honda's and Toyota's are not designed by American engineers. Anyway, if you like the Honda's or Toyota's, then that is what you should buy. I have owned a number of Buicks over the last few decades, and I have not had serious problems with any of them. My last car was a Cadillac Seville (2002), which was very good with only one problem that was covered by the warranty. I now have a RWD/AWD SRX which has been good so far.

    I am not sure that buying used cars is a good idea. My brother had two Honda's, both of which aged poorly. The first one did run to the end, but would no longer pass the emissions tests. The CR-V was totaled on the rear bumper of a domesic...
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    One rather large detail here; you would be driving a Taurus. Ya know, I could have bought a Yugo and pocketed $22,000 too, but I don't really want to inflict such mystery to self. I realize everyone has a different threshold to pain. :cry:
    Loren
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    An accident that totals a vehicle is the driver's fault, not Honda's.

    Anyway, Loren is right, driving a Taurus around would be MISERY! I don't know about mystery... maybe the mystery of when and how many times it will break down in any given month? :P :lemon:
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I would assume immediate torque steer could be caused by having such a down shift. A fourth to first, would not be a good thing. :surprise: Sort of like braking up front, with only one brake. Not a good thing.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The CTS, has a couple of issues about it in the first year, but seems to be holding up pretty good over time for the years of build after the initial launch. Now is there any data, other than a GTO, to go by when considering these new RWD Aussie cars? The GTO was not perfect. Will they get it right before launch time for Camaro, Impala and Pontiacs?

    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Oh dang, I meant misery. See, I best get something to eat now, my brain is not firing off right, and the words are becoming a mystery, and thus a misery!

    :shades: Loren
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    True, the accident was the drivers fault. However, before the vehicle was totaled, the engine needed rebuilt at 70,000 miles due to Honda's poor engineering.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The GTO was a performance car. The G8 will offer a V6, which might be the best choice, as well as the V8. The V8 won't be tuned quite like the GTO's. The GTO was not a bad car, but was not something many wanted. I don't thing the G8 is something I want either, but a wagon version might have been another matter.

    I think that the Impala and other RWD sedans will be based on the Camaro platform, and not imported from Aussieland.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    All the same platform. Most of the engineering done down under and all built in Oshawa.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    A honda built in the new Civic plant in Greensburg Indiana will cut the imported quantity by a third. $500 of the total content will be what us americans are paid to make the entire car. It sells for $18200 if it has auto and PW. Take out the 500 assembly, 600 dest charge, and 1000 dealer profit and you end up with $16,100 to account for. Most of that goes to Japan. Let me assure you that no americans are engineering the civic. If they were, it wouldn't have a rubber timing belt.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    If the engine has poor engineering, wouldn't a lot more have met an early demise. Perhaps it is a matter of this particular engine meeting an premature death. Lots of things could have happened. If the design is wrong, many others would have shown the same symptoms. Most Civics go on to live a good long life of 200K to 300K miles. Not every example will however.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    That can not be right. Are you saying they are building the car here, made of all imported parts from Japan? As for engineering, what does a timing belt have to do with anything as to the country or people of whom designed the auto?

    My Accord was built in Ohio, the engine built in USA, as well as most of the parts. The car I traded in was a Chrysler PT, but was made in Mexico. Very well screwed together, I may add. Mexicans did a very good job at that plant. Ford is also having success with the Fusion made in Mexico. The Astra is coming to America, made in Germany, I guess. Opel has been owned by GM since before WWII. World market for cars, means investments around the globe. My first car was an Opel by GM, and now I have a Honda. Doesn't mean the next car may not be something made in USA, or a GM made in Mexico or Germany -- heck Australia. I do hope the UAW negotiations work out so it is still possible for GM and the other Big Two to still make a lot of what they sell in USA. And hopefully our government will start to do what is in the best interest of its citizens and show push for more production of many products once again in USA. Let's start building our infrastructure up to modern standards, or at the least the original standards, and stop wasting our money in other countries.

    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Does the Camaro seem a bit wide at say 79" or close to that figure? Seems like the Impala, Camaro and the rest if that wide have certain limits, as some older cities, like where I live date back to Mission days of foot traffic and thus many fairly narrow streets. Seems to me some of those parking spaces are all so narrow. This is a real issue for some people. I consider 74" as a pretty wide car, and don't see a Pony car as any wider. Actually the New Mustang seems larger or puffier. I have watched it slowly expand, like my waistline, over the years. I fully understand the benefits of a wider Impala, like the Crown Vic, as they seat people in the rear seat in more comfort, but we are in this new era of crowded streets, parking spaces, and high gas prices. Wouldn't smaller and lighter be the way for gas mileage and a new crowded environment? Or is this the transition from those SUV beast sized cars, and thus those owners would only appreciate the super sized?

    Wonder if the Impala and Pontiacs get the high beltline , chop top look too?

    Curious as a cat,
    Loren
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    I don't see you interest concern. I haven't had a car loan in 8 years. Cars of mine that have been to repair shop 3 times: '87 astro owned 17 years. Cars of mine that have never been to any repair shop: Silverado owned 6 years, Riviera with 162k miles on it, and mustang owned 2 years. My 98 astro is the worst American car I ever had. I had to take it to the a/c repair shop one day and the trans repair shop one day. At 9 years old and 104k mi it operates nearly perfect. It was $25k MSRP new and one day I will reach a point where I will have spent $1000 fixing it. That 3% of sticker spent on repairs in 9 short years. It is my worst american car ever. I will always wonder what I could have done over those 9 years with the hundreds of repair dollars and those 4 round trips I could have saved if I had bought a more perfect Sienna or Odyssey.

    Shouldn't Honda read your post and then find out GM's interest rate and then charge 4% over it for all Honda loans? GM is at 7% so Honda should be worth 11%.

    As cars are made better and better, there is only a finite amount of repair dollars that can be saved with further improvement. In the case of my unreliable 98 astro, it is $7-800 lifetime. As gas gets more and more expensive, it becomes unpredictable whether 150k miles in a Tundra will cost $37,000 or $68,000 to fuel up. I don't see the relevance of so much concentration on the finite side. Repairs are only a few percent of gas.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    honda brings it's japanese suppliers over from japan and has them set up shop in ohio and ky. The high value/lb parts are imported from japan. the high shipping cost parts (large or heavy) are made by these transplanted japanese subsidiaries here local. the 6000 nuts and bolts are sourced to american companies so the % parts that are american origin is boosted. Any part causing toxic waste in it's production is of course made here in USA. I guess most americans are fooled by this strategy that exports all our dollars to japan.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    With your sort of luck, you could go golfing during an electrical storm. :D

    I would consider challenging the odds as too risky, as results can be shocking!
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Interesting. Never heard that before. You are saying they can build the car and parts for the car which come from USA for $500 labor? Sounds like that are doing pretty good. I have no idea where all the individual parts came from. The battery has Johnson Controls listed.

    So you are saying all the parts to build the USA built engine, and the transmissions and seats and all came from abroad? And the total sum paid to workers here at the suppliers and assembly account for just $500 per car? Amazing. Don't believe it. You have got me somewhat curious though about the Honda Supplier Network USA, I guess you could call it. I see the air conditioning is from Torrence, CA, but says Honda USA.

    Why would they ship over so many parts, then funnel them though their network supplies, then onward to build the car? Wouldn't that ultimately cost them more? Quality control perhaps -- maybe I could see some things, like the engine. If cost is the factor, why then not Mexico to build the parts?

    I still don't see how this exports all the dollars from the sale of the cars here in USA. Let's assume you are 100% correct in this matter. Are you then suggesting that people in say Europe or Australia should not buy a GM vehicle since some of the money ultimately goes to USA GM? And in Mexico or Brazil, should all the money made stay within their borders? What I am trying to say is that in a World market place, all companies are going to seek out ways to sell around the globe, and bring whatever monies they can home. I don't think Honda is bringing it all home, any more than GM is brining all the money on home from say Opel division.

    Loren
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Well, My:

    '75 Buick Apollo: Tranny shifter cable, thats it
    '77 Electra: Pwr seat motor and starter. Owned for 9 yrs, got slammed by a '69 skylark, put a new nose on it and ran it for 2 more yrs. Sold it for $1000 and new owner ran it until 1998.
    '86 S-10: Blown head gasket replaced under warranty
    '88 Regal: Rear calipers replaced 3 times in 14 yrs rebuild instrument panel (warr.) fuel pump (warr)
    '94 Safari: Flawless
    '96 SL-2: Flawless
    '98 Jimmy: Rear glass latch
    '91 K 2500 Fuel tank and shock bracket at 120k starter at 110k alternator at 100k
    '99 PK Av ultra: mass air fl. sensor at 85k broken door handle, and rotors
    '04 Ranier: Steering rack repl under warr (didn't fail, tsb for vibration) flasher, and cosmetics, All under warranty.

    Gee, that's ONE LESS TRANNY than you. I didn't even mention my father's '88 pk ave which ran flawlessly from purchase in 1990 w/ 16k until we replaced the alternator 100k and steering rack 150k. My aunt drives it now.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Well the 71 was 74 1/2 inches wide so another 4 1/2 seems a bit more but not way too much. But the car could have been skinnier.

    Most places in the US do not have roads based on foot paths.

    High beltline is pretty much the standard now on all new vehicles.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The same platform, but as I understand it (from comments made by Lutz) there may be a somewhat different range of vehicles made on the US version of the platform. In particular, a high end Cadillac may see production.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "C and D is not a hater. "

    you must not read the magazine. They dont like much that GM makes aside from the vette and CTS-V. When they praise a GM product, its pretty significant in my book because it doesnt happen too often.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "So in conclusion: New Malibu will take away most of what customers they have now for the Aura. Some more strange strategies for GM. "

    wrong again, saturn buyers typically dont look at other GM brands. Most people who are considering the Aura would not buy a Malibu. Its a simple concept, but you seem to have trouble grasping it for some reason. The Malibu isnt going to do much to affect Aura sales. Same way the Equinox isnt going to hurt sales of the 2008 Vue.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 350
    The 4 cyl engines put out by Honda, Toyota and Nissan are quite powerful and they sell better than the V6s.

    I don't understand why would Saturn price their cars higher than the Accord and Camry when the the Camry and Accord are the benchmarks when it comes to midsize sedans. It would be one thing if the Aura was a huge hit, which it isn't. The Aura is a remarkable step forward for GM but by no means does it blow away the competition.

    Merely by bringing up the family plans aren't you admitting that the Aura is priced too high and not a good buy at that price that the general public pays for one?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Hope Malibu will give me a compelling reason to not go for Accord. I will search Edmunds and other sites/ forums for safety ratings, fuel efficiency and fleet sales info. While test-driving, I will be looking for light-weight feeling, easy-handling, responsive-brakes and a clean interior with simple controls for everything including stereo. I don't expect Malibu to have Accord's resale value - so, I expect GM to give me a lower APR. "

    information about the Malibus handling, safety and performance can be determined by looking at the Aura. As for the radio controls and ergomics, you can also look at the Aura. Most GM models have the same head unit and it has gotten good reviews. I would expect the Malibu's resale to be closer to the Accord than you think, but I woulndt expect to get 2.9APR when the car is new. You may have to wait a while for such an offer. I think the Malibu's interior is definitely comparable with anything in this price range.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "I don't understand why would Saturn price their cars higher than the Accord and Camry when the the Camry and Accord are the benchmarks when it comes to midsize sedans. It would be one thing if the Aura was a huge hit, which it isn't. The Aura is a remarkable step forward for GM but by no means does it blow away the competition. "

    can you tell me where you are getting this pricing info from? I dont understand why people compare prices without taking into account incentives and EQUIPMENT. The Aura is NOT more expensive than Camry or accord when you look at its equipment levels. Its actually several thousand cheaper. The Camry SE doesnt come with a lot of stuff for $25k, check the standard equipment for yourself. A Camry SE loaded up to compare with a loaded XR is about $30k, I priced it before.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    "C and D is not a hater. "

    you must not read the magazine. They dont like much that GM makes aside from the vette and CTS-V. When they praise a GM product, its pretty significant in my book because it doesnt happen too often.

    Have read it for many years. Seems that GM gets along well with Car and Driver in that they support the magazine with their advertising dollars.

    I believe that Car and Driver has been favorable to more than just 2 GM models (Vette, CTS-V) over the years. And, when Car and Driver did not care for or pointed out some things on GM cars that it did not like, that does not make them a "hater". Car and Driver gives its opinions, likes and dislikes, about all brands of vehicles, not just GM.

    Would GM give "any" advertising dollars to Car and Drive if they thought that the magazine was a "hater" and did not play fair?

    Some posters on this board need to wake up and realize that GM, through Bob Lutz, has publicly talked about GM's problems. Lutz has said that there were problems and thinks that these are past. So, if a car magazine in past issues had pointed things out that it did not like about GM models at times, seems that is in line with what GM itself has said.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Well the 71 was 74 1/2 inches wide so another 4 1/2 seems a bit more but not way too much. But the car could have been skinnier.

    4 1/2 inches may not seem like much, but to put it in perspective, that's like going from a '71 Camaro to a '71 Caprice.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My daughter was a Honda fanatic, 2 Civics and a CR-V. She switched to Saturn and loves them. Said it is like night and day dealing with Saturn vs Honda dealer. She got rid of the 2000 CR-V, due to many little problems and poor dealer response. She is on her second Saturn. First Saturn was totaled. Her and my grandson walked away unscathed. She will not go back to Honda.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Following are some quotes from syndicated automotive journalist, Warren Brown, of the Washington Post that appeared in my local newspaper recently.

    “Buick has been in China since 1912. There it is a revered automotive badge, especially among the country’s upper income groups who demand top quality and hold prestige and honor – they call it face – as sacrosanct. Buick’s status in China probably surprises many Americans, as it surprised me on several visits to Shanghai General Motors, a 50-50 joint venture between GM and Shanghai Automotive Industry, established in 1997. I was shocked beyond belief by China’s acceptance of Buicks. Moreover, I was stunned by the superior quality of the Chinese Buicks I drove (on a Shanghai GM test track) and saw. Those Buicks were better than any Buicks I’d ever driven or seen in the United States. They were solid and whisper quiet. Fit and finish were impeccable. Interior craftsmanship – the way materials blended with one another; the impressive attention to detail on the smallest items, such as the feel and weight of glove compartment doors was awe inspiring…

    I’ve driven the 2008 Buick Enclave CXL, the grandest of tall wagons from any manufacturer, probably the best Buick ever built. It has everything the upper-income segment of the Chinese market expects…..We like the Enclave CXL. But, what we like best is that GM that has so much “face” in China at long last has decided to save it in America. Welcome home, GM. Welcome back, Buick.”

    If what Brown is saying about Chinese built Buicks is accurate, looks like Chinese with GM guidance, can build very good cars. Wonder if GM has strategy to soon build in China with cheaper labor and export to U.S.

    Brown said that he was stunned by the superior quality of the Chinese Buicks that he drove. He said that those Buicks were better than any Buicks he had ever driven or seen in the United States. The rest of the article then describes how the new Enclave is very good and that it is up to the level of the Chinese Buicks.

    Anybody else from U.S. that has gone to China and drove Buicks there and had similar experience to Brown?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Wonder if the Impala and Pontiacs get the high beltline , chop top look too?

    Maybe not the chopped top, but to my way of thinking, the Impala got the high beltine back from the get-go back in 2000. Its predecessor, the Lumina, had a low beltline and windows so big and tall that they couldn't even get the back window to roll down halfway!

    I looked at the Impala around the same time that I bought my Intrepid, and I remember the high beltline being one of the things I didn't like about it. It felt kinda like sitting in a bathtub.

    Looking back though, at the time, the Intrepid even seemed like it had a high beltline, compared to the '89 Gran Fury that I had been driving before it.

    I agree too, on the parking spaces. While the actual streets, highways, etc, may not be getting any narrower, it does seem like pull-in parking spaces are getting tighter, and parallel spots are getting shorter. 14 years ago, I worked in the same building I'm working in now, although I've moved several times in the interim. I remember the first time we were here, I'd drive my grandmother's '85 LeSabre to work sometimes, and had no trouble putting its 218" of heft in the parallel spots out front. At some point though, they re-striped the parallel spots and the parking lot as well. I remember a few years back trying to parallel park my '79 New Yorker out in front, and that's when I noticed the car would not physically fit between the lines. It would hang over several inches on either end.

    Once they re-striped the parking lot, you could barely see where the old stripes had been. The new spaces were about 6 inches narrower.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    There are not many Saturn buyers. That is the problem. I thought they wanted new buyers? And those will opt for the New Malibu, if it is as good if not better and costs less.

    Loren
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I remember visiting my brother at college. I brought my 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille. Public works at his school just relined the parking lot outside his dorm and my '75 Caddy nearly took up two spots. I guess they thought all the students drove Tercels or Civics.
  • chetjchetj Member Posts: 324
    i was in the philippines and saw a guy named suzuki driving a very quiet late model Ford.... thought it was ironic...the car seemed of very high quality
  • chetjchetj Member Posts: 324
    one thing us domestic warriors can thank guys like andres 3 for is keeping the price on our beloved big 3 cars priced very reasonable..i had a used 1991 accord w/ a lot more problems than i thought i would have... first import ever...loved the engine and seats but was dissappointed at the unanticapated repairs...finally gave car away
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