General Motors discussions

daveok7

Paul Ballew, a top GM executive stated this on Bloomberg business News channel. Wherever you are getting your figures must be from the a fairy tale or a wish book. The 29% refers to only retail sales after they are broken out of the totals of all their types of sales. GM's story is getting even worse by the month.

daveok7

If they are going to be so miserly on their rebates their sales will still be unsatisfactory, unacceptable, and pathetic. Shouldn't they have learned their lessons over the last few putrid sales months they've had?

fezo

I'm spotting a trend here!

They need t9o start making 88 Park Avenues again.

62vetteefp

From GM's official release: Not sure why Paul would say retail down 29%. Could you get me the link.

GM dealers in the United States delivered 320,935 vehicles in July, down 18.5 percent compared with exceptionally strong year-ago monthly sales. Of note, retail sales of 239,192 vehicles were up 14.5 percent compared with June 2007 with a substantial improvement in vehicle mix. Inventories were essentially flat compared with July 2006.

A little note about the above mumbers. How could the retail sales for July be 239,192 while the dealers delivered 320,935? Dealers deliver to commercial fleet which does not count as retail but is also not rental.

bumpy

28/35 sounds pretty good for a mild hybrid. Hopefully they can ditch the antedeluvian 4-speed for a 6 next year and get the city mpg up to that magic 30.

m1miata

They do, the Impala. And the price really has not changed. I am serious. I owned a Olds98 in '87 model year, which should be priced same as the '88 Park Ave. and it was $18K with a discount and $20K retail. Cars were darn expensive in money terms back when. You could compare the Buick LaCrosse or even the Lucerne, but those are likely to have a lot more content to them than the old Buicks of '88. Heck, I know my car had no air bag. Anyway, if you want an Impala with the 3.8 now 3.9, or a LaCrosse with the 3.8 take your pick, with a 4 sp. transmission, you still have a car in what, say the $20K to $28K range on the top end, which is so much less than it was in 1980's dollars. So yeah, they ARE still making the same cars, but with the new safety and upgrades over the years. Recall the days when 15" was a very large wheel? The stereo was good when it had a cassette player. Anti-lock brakes and side impact air bags were unheard of. Did they even have anti-lock brakes then ?? Perhaps, but not very good ones. I had crappy anti-lock brakes on my '92 Achieva. By now, I suppose they are in like a third generation of development and thus really improved.

To sum it up, yeah, you can buy a new and improved, almost the same car today for the same price or get something with goodies, and maybe stabili-trak for not much more money.
Loren

m1miata

Personally, I will take the 24MPG avg. and 29+MPG hwy. my V6 244HP engine car gets right now. For a little more MPG, do I want an engine which starts and stops all the time to save on gas every stop of the way, and requires two engines and lots technology which will be costly in the end? No.

To eke out more MPG there are fuel efficient i4 engines. The old Civic HX with a stick got at least 44MPG on the highway, with some reporting closer to 50 MPG.

Life is simple, until you complicate things,
Loren

makigrl

You get the buick lacrosse with a 200 3.8 V-6 for around $23,000 and the 240 HP 3.6 V-6 for around 27,000. Now gm has the saturn aura and it has 225 HP 3.5 V-6 model for around $20,500 and 252 Hp for around $24,000. You can get a Toyata Camry with a 268 HP V-6 for around $1,000 more than the lacrosse. You can also get a ford fusion with around a 220 HP V-6 for about $1,000 less.

Power wise what you could be getting from a lacrosse makes it overpriced compared to the other cars out there even the saturn aura. You get things like traction control standard and xm satelllite radio even on the base model. Your mostly getting the buick for the 4 year 48,000 mile warranty and that is about it.

The quality might be higher than some since many of the newer chrysler products like the dodge avenger I heard was well received when they premiered it. I heard from reviews both the new sebring and avenger are better than the previous model but they do stick plastics in the interior and they are still not super high in quality.

62vetteefp

As we know a new hybrid is in town. Will it get the sales??

I think one issue will be that the hybrid cost $2000 more than the base V6. But does it really?

The differences between them:

V6 version has power, 17" tires, steel wheels

hybrid has 16" alum wheels, mpg, Auto climate control

So they are contented very, very closely for an easy price comparison. Negating the power with the MPG advantage the hybrid comes out about $1500 more than the base V6.

We will wait to see if our "green" nation customers will buy a hybrid that looks just like a V6 standard car. Did not work for Honda. However the Aura is a bunch more affordable than the failed Honda hybrid. (22k vs 31K) They both get the same mileage. One thing that is real different is that the Honda was a root snorten V6 so that probably turned off the greenies even if it did get great mileage. The $31k also really cuts down the possible buying pool.

Facts show that those buying the Prius are very well off ($100K household income average/very educated) and are the "hippies" of today. They want to feel like they are making a difference and want everyone else to know it.

62vetteefp

I agree that GM does need to stop this slide. A lot of the recent slide (1-2 years) has primarily been due to reduction in fleet sales. Hard choices were made to close plants and buy outs of people. They decreased MSRP's and cut out much of the incentives. This pain has worked and now GM is making a profit with much lower volume with much higher ATP's which is great. The overhead and fixed cost are way down. They have been able to keep the retail numbers even or slightly going up for the last year or so.

However June and July have been awful months. Something has to be done. I do not know why the recent months have been so bad. Of course it is not just GM. Lets hope they figure this out. Raising incentives to competitive will be part of the fix to increase volume.

1487

its always the same crap with you, no matter how good GM's new products are you always talk about this "wait and see" nonsense. marketshare aside, GM's products are better than ever. And I mean EVER, forget about the muscle car era or any other eras. GM never made vehicles as well as they do now. Sorry if you need more information on the CTS, Malibu, G8, etc. before deciding if they are good, but many people are already impressed. You keep beating a dead horse about GM using a platform for more than one vehicle. Newsflash: everyone does this. To say the Malibu isnt new because the G6 has been out for 4 years is ridiculous. The two cars share a platform but dont share sheetmetal or interiors. In fact, I cant think of any interior pieces that are common in the two cars. Not the head unit, not the gauges, not the console, not the dash, etc. They are NOT the same car.

1487

Just to offer some perspective on how much people hate american cars I want to relay this story. I read a letter to the editor responding to a column someone wrote about having to part with a Grand Marquis that was 11 years old with 90k miles. The letter writer stated that it was ridiculous that a car could have problems after 90k miles and 11 years and it showed that the standards excepted by domestic car buyers have led to crappy cars such as the author's vehicle. She said her '96 corolla has never had any work done after 165k miles(probably didnt need oil changes either) and reading about the Grand Marquis justified her opinion that American cars are crap and she will continue to buy Toyota until american cars can go 165k miles without any problems.

1487

only a fool would fail to see that GM is gaining share and making money outside the US. You cant say a company is incompetent if they are doing well in other markets. Those cars sold in Europe and China are GM cars in the end, whether you like it or not. What it boils down to is that people outside the US have more respect for GM that people here in the US. I believe GM just had its best quarter ever in Germany of all places. Here in the US we believe that GM cant compete with Hyundai or Kia, much less MB and BMW and yet in GErmany GM is doing fine.

GM may continue to lose sales until they get to their natural size in the US market. I think someone mentioned earlier their actual share for July wasnt bad although their sales were bad. without dumping cars into fleets GM's share may be around 20% in the future. thats just the way its going to be. When they jacked up incentives people like you said they were fools to create demand with rebates. Now they are selling less cars with less incentives and people like you are saying they are stupid for allowing sales to slide and need to jack up rebates ASAP.

Make up your mind or shut up.

lemko

Darned if they do and darned if they don't. Hey, Americans believe the Chinese and European people are smarter than they are and the Chinese and Europeans are buying GM cars! I guess they really ARE smarter than Americans!

I think it's this self-depricating bull Americans have about themselves and anything that is American that has existed since the Watergate Era. They think of themselves as losers and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

nippononly

the 0% 60-month financing again on the Silverados. That should help insulate them from more months as bad as June and July. Is there any cash on the hood with that financing? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. The new F-150 is now said to be pulled forward and should come out next spring. One thing the new Tundra did, even if it ends up not selling well, is spark the fiercest competition in the full-size truck segment in quite some time.

nwng

the problem is, they are not buying the NA GM cars, their "GM" cars are much nicer than ours. You ever thought about why that is?

robbieg

I agree that many GM products are overpriced, at least in my opinion. GM products are getting better but they aren't on par with Honda yet. Part of this may be perception and part of it may be reality. Consequently, GM has price their cars cheaper in order to lure the import buyer, like me. The relevant question is how much cheaper. The Aura is nice car but it is priced about $2500 - $3000 too high for me. Basically, to win back import buyers, if that is in fact GM's goals, they have to be cheaper, much cheaper, alternative to Honda and Toyota. GM's problem is that they just aren't cheap enough. When I purchased my last two cars, a 2005 Subaru Legacy GT and a 2007 Honda Odyssey, in my opinion GM didn't make anything that was worth considering. Maybe I will consider an Aura when I go to replace the Subaru in a few years it all depends if it is priced right.

grbeck

1487: no one has a true prius competitor. the civic is not a hybrid only model with its own styling and we see how its sales are doing compared to Prius.

The Civic is considered a Prius competitor, regardless of your opinion.

1487: I am not talking about articles referring to sales MIX, I am talking about articles and editorials that pretend that Toyota only sells efficient vehicles and GM offers no alternatives to its SUVs.

Which deals directly with the sales mix (how much of each respective car maker's total sales consists of fuel efficient vehicles). As I said, it is indisputable that a larger percentage of GM's total sales consist of trucks and SUVs, compared to the figures for Toyota, and GM depends on those vehicles for profits, and Toyota doesn't. This is changing, as Toyota sells more SUVs and trucks.

1487: My local paper has written numerous editorials that ignore the facts and then proclaim that Toyota is leading the charge towards efficiency with its hybrids.

And Toyota is the leader in hybrids, and hybrid technology will likely play a big role in boosting the fuel efficiency of future vehicles, so your paper is telling the truth.

1487: YOu need to keep in mind that Toyota is american as apple pie and its now the default american auto company for many in the press and in the public. People like Toyota and they want to see them succeed. People were raised on Toyota and they admire and idolize what they see as the Japanese obsession with quality.

So? People have the right to view car companies through their own experiences and opinion filters. If you are going to rail at the attitudes many Americans hold regarding Toyota, you are wasting your time and energy. Blaming people for the attitudes they hold regarding a car company forgets that car companies, like people, EARN their reputations over the long haul.

grbeck

62vetteefp: However June and July have been awful months. Something has to be done. I do not know why the recent months have been so bad. Of course it is not just GM. Lets hope they figure this out. Raising incentives to competitive will be part of the fix to increase volume.

The car market is softening. We've been running at the current sales level for several years, and the market should be satiated. Virtually everyone who NEEDS a new vehicle has one. In our household, we just paid off a 2003 model. I have no desire for a new vehicle. The 2003 model has 80,000 miles on it, looks and drives like new, and it's nice not to have car payments!

With the current housing market slump, people can no longer tap their home equity to finance new vehicle purchases. Continuing bad news regarding the housing market, along with the war in Iraq, has made buyers reluctant to purchase a new vehicle.

If I recall, Toyota and Honda were down, too. It's going to be a rough ride for everyone. I just hope that the UAW is realistic about what the coming months will hold for the Big Three, and doesn't view the recent (slim) profits as a signal that everyone can return to business as usual.

altest

Good point. Most Camrys and Accords (I guess over 75%) are 4 cyl models. And, these are hugely popular models.

If you look at Jan-Jun 2007 sales, Honda CR-V is now the number one SUV in the American market - it outsold Explorer, TrailBlazer, Grand Cherokee, etc.

Clearly, consumers want fuel-efficient, cheap and reliable 4 cyl engines.

Also, guess what - all these 4 cyl Japanese models have side-curtain airbag standard. And, they have good resale value too.

It's clear that many Americans now follow KISS (keep it simple, stupid) when it comes to shopping for cars.

GM has gotten better since I traded in my Chevy for a Honda. GM just needs to roll of some sleek 4 cyl, safe, retail-only models to win me back!

Cheers!

PS I want a bowtie (still like the logo). Saturn won't do!

altest

I agree too! Clearly, the Japanese now have a better image. And, many consumers don't want to pay for an Aura what they would happily pay for an Accord.

Solution? I don't know. Cutting price may boost GM's sales. But it will hurt GM's profits and dilute the image further. I guess a better solution is to offer standard safety features, change product mix to include many fuel efficient 4 cyl models, to reduce fleet sales, to offer 4 year/ 50K bumper-to-bumper and 6 year/ 100K powertrain, and to get rid of half of the dealers (probably, the toughest thing to do because of legal complications).

altest

WOW! Is this really true that their GM cars are better? Surprising!

m1miata

Interesting. I guess Toyota did raise the bar then.

Thanks for sharing,
Loren

m1miata

Well it is a good point. For years now, Europe has the cars which are seen to be seen as a cut above what the same company is selling here, as well as say the Aussie cars which have the RWD. What about the RWD Buicks sold in China? This is what one hears. Of course I have not driven these OTHER cars, so it is all in what the professional testers and people have to say here about these cars. It would appear that we get the cars made on the cheap (well cheaper), as in designed to compensate for expenses occurred by GM as a whole. We are picking up the tab? What is your take? I am but mirroring what has been one of the beefs people have with GM and Ford. Have not personally driven say an American Focus and a Euro Focus back to back, so I am only going by what is said to be the fact.
In looking at the China Buick photos, are they not somewhat impressive? Are those actually the Aussie Holden cars? If they get all the want from the UAW talks, I wonder if we will see more Euro and Australian autos? One problem now, is that people will not pay the premium price for the cars due to the deterioration of the brand over the years in domestics. A Focus say may be seen a good buy, but not as something people will pay some extra bucks for like the Mazda3, which is said to be the Euro Focus like car. Maybe GM should have imported the Opels say, while still making most Auras here.
Loren

m1miata

OK, highly similar then, and nothing new.

As for then vs. now, well I doubt you will ever see a New Malibu or say the current Impala in a car show. Sorry, but there were better times for car designs. This doesn't mean it is impossible to once again regain much of what was lost. The last Eldorado, last Camaro, the CTS, a Corvette, or for looks the Solstice say, are a few examples of more modern day efforts by GM which seem to hit the mark for lasting impressions. Well, you could add the Aztec, which leave quite the impression, but ya know what I mean. The opportunity is there with say the new Impala and Camaro to have some real impact. I am not talking this our Malibu is as good looking as your Camry, but rather, look at that award winning looks. Award winners now and twenty years from now. They, GM, has been there and done that. I am old enough to have witness the golden years of the 60's for the wonderful beauties, while be witness to it all unwinding over the years.

As for sharing a platform, yes they all do it. When you do so, the cars should look different and/or do something different. If one is better suited to carrying more stuff, and the other say is a sports car, then yea, same platform - different car. The New Malibu will be a second generation, "first ever" G6 from Chevy, more than a new car, but that is OK. It will sell well compared to the G6 & Aura. Same car, different day.
Loren

anotherguy

Check out this review of the Buick Enclave to see more on how Buicks in China are better than US Buicks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/19/AR2007071901266.- html

dave8697

This site lists a 2007 4 cyl auto civic coupe with power windows as starting at $18155.

I know something can be negotiated off this, but it is pretty much the bottom of the Honda line with auto and a few power options. What 4 or 6 cyl auto over 27 hwy mpg GM models can compete with that $18,200 price and still offer power windows, locks, mirrors, cruise, CD and tilt? I consider those to be the min required for a car I'd spend at least 12 hours a week in.

1487

"Darned if they do and darned if they don't. Hey, Americans believe the Chinese and European people are smarter than they are and the Chinese and Europeans are buying GM cars! I guess they really ARE smarter than Americans! "

that is so true. Really the Japanese are the only ones in the world who dont buy any cars from US manufacturers but I dont think import companies have much of a prescence there. In Europe (where the best cars in the world are made many would say) GM is doing pretty good. The Astra is the 1st or 2nd best selling car over there. Either GM can make a decent car or Europeans arent as sophisticated as we'd like to believe. The other irony is that most of the Japanese models that are so popular here arent that huge in Europe. The camry is not what the average European is looking for.

1487

"the problem is, they are not buying the NA GM cars, their "GM" cars are much nicer than ours. You ever thought about why that is? "

I wouldnt say all of GM's other offerings are better. GM does sell small and midsize cars with more power and options in Europe but over there size and price arent as related as they are here. In other words the Euro focus or Astra is going to offer more features there because people will pay $30k for a compact car. That isnt going to happen here unless its a BMW. On top of that Europe also gets a lot of small engines that wouldnt be acceptable here. Sure the TOP level cars they get over there are superior but the low end cars wouldnt have much appeal here. Plus European products sold by GM and Ford arent all that cheap.

In China the Buicks and Caddy's are nice because they are top end luxury cars purchased by well off people who ride in the backseat. The prices reflect that and people here would not pay what the Chinese pay for cars like the Park Ave or STS. On top of that labor in China is dirt cheap which means more money can be poured into the interiors. You cant duplicate that over here.

1487

"And Toyota is the leader in hybrids, and hybrid technology will likely play a big role in boosting the fuel efficiency of future vehicles, so your paper is telling the truth. "

first of all you didnt read the editorial, but I did. I think I'm more qualified to know what was said. Secondly, they were lying and anyone who agrees with them is ignoring the facts. Stop putting Toyota on a pedastal (do you work for them?) and twisting the facts. Toyota is selling more Tundras than Prius' so it is absurd to sit here and say Toyota is leading the charge towards 35mpg vehicles, especially when Toyota has successfully lobbied to get congress to drop the measure. Toyota cannot get to 35mpg across the board with their current strategy and it would be a hardship to do so. You know so much, but you apparently dont know that Toyota's CAFE average is only 2 or 3mpg better than GM's. That fact alone deflates whatever ridiculous arguments you continue to make. 3mpg is not a huge lead my any standard and Honda's average is better than that since they dont make V8s or trucks. Give me a break.

"Blaming people for the attitudes they hold regarding a car company forgets that car companies, like people, EARN their reputations over the long haul. "

didnt blame anyone, just stated the facts. Stop arguing for the sake of seeing your text on the screen. People like you want the big 3 to go under and fortunately for you that process is well underway. Soon we will be like England and have no local car manufacturers. Cant wait!

the civic is a poor Pruis competitor based on sales results. Like I said, no one else has a hybrid only model with unique styling. Toyota is ahead of EVERYONE on this. If GM is stupid for being caught off guard than so is Nissan, Honda, Ford, BMW, MB, Hyundai, etc. Basically the entire industry.

1487

"Clearly, consumers want fuel-efficient, cheap and reliable 4 cyl engines.

Also, guess what - all these 4 cyl Japanese models have side-curtain airbag standard. And, they have good resale value too.

It's clear that many Americans now follow KISS (keep it simple, stupid) when it comes to shopping for cars.

GM has gotten better since I traded in my Chevy for a Honda. GM just needs to roll of some sleek 4 cyl, safe, retail-only models to win me back! "

The Malibu, Aura and G6 all have 6 airbags standard for 2008 as well as 4 cylinder engines.

As for consumers and fuel efficiency, please note that Toyota truck sales were up last month- I think it might have been a record. Import truck sales are doing OK except for the really large V8 models. People apparently have trouble reading the mileage stickers when going to purchase import SUVs and pickups.

1487

"As for sharing a platform, yes they all do it. When you do so, the cars should look different and/or do something different. If one is better suited to carrying more stuff, and the other say is a sports car, then yea, same platform - different car. The New Malibu will be a second generation, "first ever" G6 from Chevy, more than a new car, but that is OK. It will sell well compared to the G6 & Aura. Same car, different day. "

Avalon, Camry and ES350 are the same car underneath more or less. Avalon is actually last gen but the other two are on an updated version of platform. Those cars are not radically differnet in purpose at all. As usual you are using double standards to criticize GM. Every large car company has vehicles that compete with each other in house.

are you saying the Aura and Malibu dont look different? Diffent fronts, rears, c pillars, wheels, fender flares and interiors- yup, they look just alike. Who can even tell them apart?

m1miata

Yes, while I would not buy the base Lexus FWD which is too close to a Camry, all three are different.

As for the GMs mentioned, looks like a different dress on the same girl. Yea, I can tell the difference in what she is wearing. :shades:

Nice try though,
Loren

chetj

i know a guy who owned a 97 GMC truck who owned a lumber mill..anyways, he would keep engine idling all day and truck now has 185k on it and still runs...they use it as a utility truck at the mill..one time it stopped raining and he left the wipers going while in office...people were laughing at noise the wipers made on dry windshield

chetj

my base 07 focus was $9800..i guess for a extra $8300 i can roll down my own windows...hard to believe you could not find a cobalt or aveo for under 14k with power windows...i think the cobalt and focus are good cars and less expensive than the [non-permissible content removed] big 2...i have seen 06 tauruses w/ factory warranty for $9900...i aint paying that much xtra for a civic

fezo

Unless you share the editorial in here you can't use the argument that you read it and thus can interpret it for us.

On the Prius, I hear over and over again the argument that people buy it because it looks different than any gas vehicle and thus has a "look at me saving gas" thing going for it." That could be true, but there are other factors to consider. The Prius is a hatch and a heck of a lot more versatile than either a Civic or a Corolla. I would expect the same crowd that likes hatches to like good mileage. That combo kept the Saab 9000 going for years. Hatches aren't for everyone but there's definitely a crowd that likes them.

The other thing in Civic vs Prius is that while both get great mileage the Prius gets considerably better mileage. If that's what you are buying on the Prius is a no brainer - and this is coming from a Honda guy.

Karen_S

A reporter is hoping to talk with consumers who have participated in Saturn’s “Side-by-Side-by-Side” test drive program.

Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com before 4pm Eastern on Friday, August 3 with your daytime contact information and a few words about your experience.

1487

they are not radically diffent. They are all soft riding family cars built for highway cruising. As usual you fail to actually explain the basis for your statement. Then again, if you did that it would cut down on your posts drastically. Care to explain why the toyota cars are so much more different than the epsilon cars by GM?

cant wait to hear this one.

just trying to be helpful. :P

1487

I'm telling you what the editorial said, you dont have to like it. You can twist it any which way you please but it wont change the facts. Newspaper writers dont know squat about the auto industry and the Inquirer is pretty liberal which means they blame america's oil consumption on Detroit, not buyers. They have never written anything to suggest that we need higher gas taxes. According to them oil independence is being stopped by the Big 3 and CAFE is the way to get there and Toyota is down with increased CAFE standards. I assure you, their logic is so flawed there is no need for me to exaggerate. They would gladly tell you what I am telling you here. If I could link it for free I would, but you cant get stuff more than a week old without paying.

fezo

"You can twist it any which way you please but it wont change the facts."

Yes, and the fact is that you comment on the editorial but will not print the editorial or link to it nor nor even give a date for it.

Sorry. Based on that what your opinion of the content means nothing to me.

grbeck

1487: first of all you didnt read the editorial, but I did. I think I'm more qualified to know what was said.

Then share it with us, because based on how many times I've had to correct your misinterpretations of reviews of GM vehicles in Car & Driver, Automobile, Consumer Reports and Motor Trend, I don't trust what you have to say, and neither should anyone else.

We are not taking your word for it, because under your standards, any honest criticism of GM is interpreted as GM bashing.

1487: Stop putting Toyota on a pedastal (do you work for them?) and twisting the facts.

No. But thanks for proving the point I made above - by merely disagreeing with your intepretation of an unseen editorial, I'm suddenly "putting Toyota on a pedestal," or even working for the company.

Less bluster, more facts, please.

1487: Toyota is selling more Tundras than Prius' so it is absurd to sit here and say Toyota is leading the charge towards 35mpg vehicles, especially when Toyota has successfully lobbied to get congress to drop the measure.

And, for the third time:

1. How many hybrids does GM sell?
2. What percentage of Toyota's sales consist of hybrids and four-cylinder cars? What are the similar figures for GM?
3. Which company depends on trucks and SUVs for whatever profits it makes?

1487: Toyota cannot get to 35mpg across the board with their current strategy and it would be a hardship to do so. You know so much, but you apparently dont know that Toyota's CAFE average is only 2 or 3mpg better than GM's.

And apparently you don't know that 2-3 mpg is a big difference for full-line companies.

1487: 3mpg is not a huge lead my any standard...

Nonsense, see above.

1487: Stop arguing for the sake of seeing your text on the screen.

Given the number of posts you've made on one subject, the irony of that sentence is just too rich.

1487: People like you want the big 3 to go under and fortunately for you that process is well underway. Soon we will be like England and have no local car manufacturers. Cant wait!

You don't know a thing about me, and you have no clue about what I want, because in your world, any criticism of GM somehow becomes not only GM bashing, but a desire for the American auto industry to wither away.

Spend less time at attempted mind reading - you're not very good at it - and more time learning more about the auto industry.

stever

Let's all spend less time talking about each other and stick to GM. It's getting offensive.

m1miata

You seem to be fascinated by Toyota vehicles. I guess GM is too. Not sure what that has gained for them over the years.

Since you first asked about how Camry, Camry Lexus and Avalon are different. Camry is a good four seating car, and Avalon is a larger car for those needing to carry five passengers. It is a larger car, and looks quite different than a Camry. It is one notch above. The starter Lexus is very much something which looks somewhat like a Camry only better looking, and with Lexus qualities, including Lexus assembly in Japan. Not sure it is different enough, but the cost is low for a Lexus. The HP and torque is higher on the Lexus.

How do they compare to the Epsilon cars you ask? Well that is a broad question. May I assume you mean the Camry in comparison? If so, then do the comparison there on Edmund's and you can go right on down the line for comparing the two cars. I did not do a driving test of the Camry, as I was not in the market for one. Just looking and sitting in the two cars, I would say the Epsilons are a bit more narrow and you feel a little tighter once inside. As the years go bye, it appears to me that Toyota is morphing into an Oldsmobile = GM. The Toyotas in i4 or V6 will give you an advantage in gas mileage and resale value. I have dug in deep on researching them though, as they drive well, but not in a fun way. By that I mean, just like a Buick or Oldsmobile steers and is in good control on the road, a Honda or Mazda is just a couple notches up in doing so. If I recall correctly the Camry is the most quiet. Anyway, I have not done a lot of study on the Toyota. I am thinking you must know a lot about them, as you seem to be fascinated by the company.

I have run out of Pepsi, and need a shot of caffeine, so I hope this post makes sense. But then again, I know of a couple of people which will correct me and re-write and explain what I have said already.

This is too easy,
Loren

lemko

The look of a Prius is exactly the thing that would keep me from buying one! They are really dorky-looking. If I had to get a hybrid, I'd get the Civic for just that reason.

m1miata

OK, it is GM on the offensive. :shades:

Technically speaking, isn't all business about having new product to best the competition? Perhaps some slip into the defensive mode, and thus simple try to shield themselves rather than spear on. At least I take it that the title here is all about offense vs defense using say a football game as a reference. A large problem for GM is having to play both ways. It is like having to play as a guard on defense, then get back out there and quarterbacking. It ain't easy. It the UAW helps on defense, perhaps the offense team can win more games. I guess GM has a quarterback, or two, but they still need more ends to take the ball into the end zone.
Just trying to be reasonable,
Loren

m1miata

You don't like the skate board ramp look? Actually, strictly going for price, as in gas mileage and cost to own, the old Civic HX stick was the winner. At more than 44MPG hwy. And you do it with one engine, which will last forever. And it never stops, until you turn the key off.

Loren

andre1969

They're a bit better looking in cartoon form...

fezo

I hear you on that. It's kind of a polarizing design. I don't mind it but I can see how someone who didn't like it could REALLY hate it.

fezo

And you get 420 dog miles per gallon!

fezo

Oh, yeah. That Civic HX couldn't be beat.