General Motors discussions

62vetteefp

GM Reports Preliminary Second Quarter Financial Results

Record automotive revenue of $45.9 billion
Reported net income of $891 million, adjusted net income of $1.4 billion
Adjusted automotive operating cash flow of $1.1 billion
Improved liquidity position of $27.2 billion

GM reported net income of $891 million, or $1.56 per diluted share, for the second quarter of 2007, an improvement of $4.3 billion compared with a reported net loss of $3.4 billion, or $5.98 per diluted share, in the year-ago quarter.

The results for the second quarter 2007 included $520 million, or $.92 per diluted share, in net special items, including $374 million in charges associated with GM’s support of the bankruptcy and reorganization of Delphi and various GM North America (GMNA) restructuring-related charges. Details on the special charges are included in the “Highlights” section of this news release.

GM posted 2007 second-quarter adjusted net income, excluding special items, of $1.4 billion, or $2.48 per diluted share, compared to $1.1 billion, or $2.03 per diluted share, in the year-ago quarter.

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gm- news/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=2&docid=38197

These adjustments have got to stop!! GM made $1.4 billion in the 2nd qtr but most of it went to Delphi and to downsizing the company.

lemko

Shoot, maybe it was just the Olds version that was bad? I still see a lot of Park Avenues, Electras, and LeSabres of my car's vintage on the streets. They are still rather common. Yes, the paint on the top of my car is bad, but it took almost 20 years. It does have very nice seats and a lot of people want to ride in my old beater car on account of them. The fuel economy is phenomenal and I often drive the Park Ave on long trips.

I bought my first new car back in 1987 - a Chevrolet Caprice Classic - an extremely well-built car. I remember some sleazy sales dude trying to sell me a new '87 Olds Delta Eighty-Eight. Guess I got lucky and dodged that bullet. Maybe I'd be driving a Lexus today and ranting about the horrible '87 Olds Delta 88 I had back in the day?

imidazol97

> Maybe I'd be driving a Lexus today and ranting about the horrible '87 Olds Delta 88 I had back in the day?

You'd be coming on GM discussions telling everyone how awful those 3800 motors are and how useless the 4-speed transmissions are because you know and you had one 20 years ago. That even though the 3.8 evolved into a very different 3800 and the 4-speed transmissions changed also but are still extremely capable. You'd be here telling how GM should have changed because "you" knew what should have been done 10 years ago and all those highly paid people at GM (and the other companies) just didn't know how to do it right. That as you had sludge in your Toyota, transmission replacements in your Honda, and transmission design/engineering/software incompatibilities in your Toyotas for years. But your mantra would be my Toyota Lexus has never cost me a cent and is perfect.

xrunner2

I'd have to deliberately set out to destroy my 1988 Buick Park Avenue to kill it.

Just curious. How many miles on odo of 88 Buick and your two Caddies?

xrunner2

Latest issue of Car and Driver has favorable review of 2008 CTS. Writer/tester of C&D went to Nurburgring in Germany (with other journalists) to test drive CTS. Writer said that GM shipped a number of CTSs, at great expense, to Germany.

Interior gets high marks and car has very good overall balance. Car did gain some weight. It was pointed out that sunroof adds over 100 pounds to car weight.

Understand that sunroof is high margin item when optional, but carmakers should make this item optional anyway. Don't think that very many buyers would opt for this if given choice.

Article said that new CTS better proportioned than old model which appeared too tall.

lemko

Brougham = 157K
Park Ave = 90K
Seville = 66K

xrunner2

That even though the 3.8 evolved into a very different 3800 and the 4-speed transmissions changed also but are still extremely capable.

Kept my 86 Suburban through end of 2003 and have to say that the auto transmission was bullit-proof, never had a problem with it. Interesting note in Sept issue of Car and Driver on 2008 CTS. It said that BMW buys 6-spd automatic transmissions "from" GM. Wonder what BMW purists think about that. Being that BMW is the "standard" of the world, does that mean that the GM 6-spd auto has to be "world class" to put it into a BMW car?

imidazol97

>Being that BMW is the "standard" of the world, does that mean that the GM 6-spd auto has to be "world class" to put it into a BMW car?

<If one accepts the tenet that BMW is indeed the "standard of the world," then the conclusion would be that GM's 6-speed is "standard of the world."

I recall being in a program at the Harrison Plant in Moraine where they were manufacturing AC compressors and the plant manager "handling" us mentioned how many car companies used the GM/Delco AC compressors at that time. People would have been embarrassed that bought "luxury" foreign cars to know their car contained a GM compressor.

michaellno

Funny, why is it that nobody is talking about the Titan and what a great job it's done penetrating the full-size market.

(now ducking out of the way ....)

grbeck

...has been acknowledged as being a leader in automotive air conditioning technology for decades, so I'm not surprised that other car makers use its compressors.

And GM's automatics have been good, too. I can see why BMW would use a GM automatic. The complaint I've seen regarding GM automatics is that they lag behind the competition in technology and flexibility, not that they are unreliable, or don't shift smoothly.

m1miata

Well if people can state over and over again that the cars made by GM in that era were bullet proof, and no one challenges it with the facts, then fine, live in a dream world. Just trying to state the ABSOLUTE facts as they occurred. People here seem to forget that a lot of people owned these cars, and lived with them They know every detail of what can go wrong, because they were sitting in the waiting room for the car to be fixed. I owned an Olds Achieva, which had to go in eight times or so for this and that before the first year was over. In the first months, it leaked water, the cable had stretched and it would not move into gear, and various little things. Anyway, to say that the transmission are perfect on GM cars is simply not the fact. If the car were perfect, why then did people start buying other cars? My goodness, just pretending it all never happened is silly. I am not ranting about the Olds 98, but gave the details to make sure no one would say, oh it is all just being picky. Let me tell ya, it all added up, and was not one or two things. One time the car stopped while I was on a winding road on the coast of Oregon. I was lucky enough to have had a small space on the right to roll on into. The car then restarted. I could have gotten smashed as cars and trucks both use the highway.

I have no idea how a sludge problem on a Toyota Camry, or a problem year for an Odyssey or Accord transmission has anything at all to do with making GM a better car. I am sure someone will explain.
My Dad has a Camry, BTW, which is within the sludge years, with no problem so far, it is a 2000 model year. Overall the car has been good, but not as good IMHO, as the 1991 model year car he had before. Of course it has no bearing on the good or bad of a GM car.

Let's now follow another line of logic. All is well with the old cars, and we stay the course then and never build a new transmission or engine, as the old say 3.8 V6 is fine ( it is fine. ) What do you think is going to happen in the fast moving market place for cars in this World? You don't see everyone else capitalizing on this, as you stay firmly entrenched in your enclave?
Loren

andres3

I wouldn't call any transmission cheap to fix, as even the old Dodge Chrysler 3 speed auto cost well over a thousand dollars to rebuild.

Furthermore, since the domestic transmissions seem to breakdown about 3 times as often as the import trannies, I'd be willing to pay 3 times more both initially and in repair to get the longer lasting 6 speeds (or 5 speeds).

nippononly

excited about the Astra release? It is any day now, right? Or has it already happened? Darn it, I wish I had a Saturn dealer closer to me than a 45 minute drive. Then I could check for myself.

The last of the old bad Saturn will truly be shoved down the trash chute with this release. I wonder if Aura sales will pick up any time soon. I am seeing Outlooks around where I live, which is pretty amazing for anything domestic and not a pick-up or truck-based SUV...

m1miata

Toyota overpriced the Tundra, then the gas prices went even higher. No big mystery. If GM trucks are right prices, with current incentives, then they will sell. If not, next month more incentive is required. What's the big deal?
Loren

62vetteefp

Looks like the rumors are that Cadillac will be getting a smaller version of the Global RWD architecture (Holden) as a Cadillac to replace the BLS for here and the rest of the world. May also get a large version to replace the DTS/STS.

m1miata

The Ridgeline is one of those specialty trucks. I doubt if Honda will ever get into the work truck type of vehicles. Considering the price, and like you said, recession, the $3,500 looks about right. Probably get say $4,000 or more total off the price.
Loren

m1miata

Will this car also be the G6 replacement at Pontiac? As price moves up for CTS, are we to assume the BLS to be priced around $30K rather than say $28K? Sounds like a plan, as CTS gets resized and well changed.

Loren

62vetteefp

The Detroit automaker reported a net profit of $1.56 a share compared with a net loss of $3.4 billion, or $5.98, a year earlier. Revenue fell to $46.8 billion. It was GM's third-straight quarterly profit.

GM said profit excluding costs such as the bailout of former auto-parts subsidiary Delphi Corp. rose to $2.48 a share, compared with $2.03. On that basis, GM was expected to report a profit of $1.11 a share, according to the average estimate of 13 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg.

What is important here is that revenue is down. Sales are down in mainly fleet but most likely retail even though I cannot find numbers to substantiate that. Even though revenue is down profit is up. In the past when GM revenue went down profit plummeted due to overhead.

It was the third straight quarterly profit for the nation's largest automaker, which attributed the year-over-year increase to improved sales, especially in growing markets worldwide.

The automaker, though, continued to lose money in its home market, North America, where it reported a net loss from continuing operations of $39 million. That was a vast improvement over the second quarter of last year, when the company reported a net loss of $3.95 billion in North America.

In the second quarter of 2006, GM took a giant after-tax charge of $3.7 billion for early retirement and buyout offers that eventually reduced its hourly work force by more than 34,000.

62vetteefp

If it happens it may be off the new Alpha RWD architecture. However the new CAFE standards will probably kill it.

62vetteefp

As of June 30, GM had 107 days' supply of pickup trucks and SUVS, or 30 percent more than it had in May, and 40 percent higher than the entire industry, according to Autodata Corp. Supply on such key vehicles as the Chevrolet Silverado pickup, Tahoe SUV and Suburban SUV is equivalent to 142 days, 124 days and 126 days, respectively. Ford, meanwhile, has 86 days' worth of F-Series trucks and 68 days of its Expedition SUVs, while Toyota has a mere 48 days' worth of Tundra.

At GM, the pressure on pickup sales and the need to boost incentives could damage the company's attempt to mount a turnaround in North American operations. Sales of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra have declined about 2 percent in 2007, despite having been redesigned for the current model year. Sales of some of the company's full-size SUVs &#150; which share the same vehicle architecture as the pickups &#150; have also slumped this year, and inventories of the vehicles have ballooned as a result.

and pickup sales in US are down about 3% for the current model year and down 5% in June.

imidazol97

>the cable had stretched and it would not move into gear,

That sounds like the snaplock adjustment at the end of the cable came undone allowing the cable sheath to move rather than forcing the internal cable to move the gear selector at the transmission end.

>problem year YEARS for an Odyssey or Accord transmission

>One time the car stopped while I was on a winding road on the coast of Oregon. I was lucky enough to have had a small space on the right to roll on into. The car then restarted. I could have gotten smashed as cars and trucks both use the highway.

Imagine if you were driving your new Toyota ES/avalon/Camry and you push the pedal but the marginal reserve in the transmission won't allow it to shift until it finishes its upshift and you could get smashed in two or three seconds hesitation while trying to get out of the way or merge into difficult traffic!

>BTW, which is within the sludge years, with no problem so far,

I'll bet (I hope) he's not following the 7500 mile service intervals the Toyota company recommended.

>we stay the course then and never build a new transmission or engine, as the old say 3.8 V6

As long as we built better rather than just bigger and better (22 inch wheels because 16, then 17, then 18, then 20 are better, because, well, they're bigger) or 5 gears rather than 4 and then 6 and then 7 and then 8 because everyone knows 10 must be better than 4 because 5 is better than 4 is assumed true.

>Of course it has no bearing on the good or bad of a GM car

But several people have come to evangelize about how great certain cars are and how GM dropped the ball (yup, they did) and could have done better earlier but GM is just a POC product and ain't gonna change. That's why Toyo and Hondo get mentioned often. If they were treated as something other than the Jim and Tammy Fae Bakker of the time, I wouldn't need to bring them up.

> you stay firmly entrenched in your Enclave?

I knew you'd come around to Buick talk sometime!

I'll hope your dad doesn't drive his car where the head temps in the hot spot stay extra high causing oil deterioration during the time it flows through that area and I hope he's doing frequent quality oil changes. I'd hate to see him have sludging.

plekto

Just looked up cost for transmission repair on the Consumer Guide site. You are spot on right about cost of old vs. new, where the CTS is three times the cost to repair when compared to the DTS/Deville. Oh well. Now ya did it, you made me check the Accord cost of tranny work again. Well you sell before the warranty ends, or buy an extended warranty, or pray a lot. It is even more than is the CTS = ouch! Most of the car is about the same parts wise to others however.
*****
It's amazing how Toyota as of late has edged itself into the same spot Volvo used to occupy in the 80s and 90s. Very nice semi-luxury cars with horrendous costs to repair. Though, of course, nothing like Mercedes or BMW.

*****
So what is your take on the Northstar engine? Is it as good as billed? More reliable than say the old 350 engines. It is lighter no doubt, and made for FWD. After what year is there no oil seal problems?
*****

The smaller Northstar was used for a couple of decades as the basis for the GM engines in most of what Nascar was using in the 80s and 90s.(don't know about recently - probably some version of it as well). It's among the most reliable engines ever built, and while it has a few more maintainence gremlins than the 3800, the engine is known to last 300-400K miles before it dies.(about 1/3 better than the 3800. And, yes, a 3800 equipped car can easily go 200-300K miles, the same as the Toyota V6.)

GM's two problems, though, are:
1 - Fantastic engine and transmissions. Bulletproof, or about as close as it gets. Cheap to fix as well. Best suspension technology. On-star and all sorts of innovative safety features.

All wrapped up hand-me-down clothes. Sure, you can tell that the guy is fit and has muscles - oh, and a brain, too - but the ragged clothes and slur in his speech kind of ruins the overall package...

GM builds the best cars on the planet, for the money. With the worst asthetics and feel.

2 - GM has a problem with putting the three or four superb engines and transmissions in only a few cars. Everything else is absolute rubbish by comparison. So it becomes a hit or miss affair. Basically you look for two words "3800" and "Northstar"(and 3.6VVT lately as well). If the car doesn't have it, you'll hate it and it will eat you alive in repairs. Even if it's the same model of car!

The BIG problem is that the sporty cars don't HAVE those two engines - with the CTS and a couple of specific exceptions. If GM put a 3800 with a 5 speed manual in a Pontiac, it would be a fantastic car. Or if they made most cars with RWD. Wht we get is:

Want a great engine? We have a stodgy old man's FWD slushbox equipped car to go with that world-class engine!

The CTS does show that someone is at least listening a little bit, though.

m1miata

Wish they would call the little Caddy the Zeta. Kinda cool name! Now BTS sounds more like a sandwich order. Wasn't there a concern over how to price the car? If CTS base of $35K holds for a starting price, I guess that now sets up a sticker of say $29,995 for the new smaller car? Just a wild guess as to what they are thinking. Then the Pontiac second ever G6, as a RWD should be around $25K to $26K range as starting price, at the most? Did the BTS FWD car in Europe do well for sales?

How many CTS cars are sold with a stick shift? I have seen them used for sale on the Net, but never at a dealership. Has this country totally lost interest in stick shift cars? Perhaps a smaller BTS ( wish list includes Zeta name ) will have a good short throw stick, and a light enough clutch for use in stop and go traffic.

Where is the need for the DTS in RWD if they have the STS? Wonder if the Lucerne is not a good fit to replace DTS all together? And what about a Park Avenue as the RWD which would easily replace the Deville / DTS? This would mean more traditional large cars would be available at Buick, with some sport options, while the Cadillac moves on up to all more (euro like) sedans and coupes. Isn't today's Lucerne sort of a modern day LaSalle anyway? Just a thought.
Loren

1487

do GM trannies really lag in technology? That is an oft repeated "fact" but it doesnt really hold up after close examination. The fact is GM makes a lot of vehicles and a lot of 4 speeds. However, when you look at 6 speed availability and production GM is near the top. Ford (not Toyota or Honda) is actually the leader in 6 speeds when you look at availability across the lineup. GM has more vehicles available with 6 speeds than Toyota or Hyundai and Honda has yet to produce a 6 speed, even on expensive vehicles like the RL. Think about it, people go on and on about how unacceptable for GM to be making 4 speeds (even though Toyota uses them) but a $16k cobalt only has ONE less gear than a $50k Acura.

For the 2008 MY the only Toyota branded products with 6 speeds will be Camry V6, Avalon and Tundra 5.7. That's it.

1487

its also worth noting that BMW, Jaguar and many others do not make their own trannies, they get them from ZF. GM, Ford and Toyota make most of their own trannies although Ford buys its 6 speed RWD trannies found in the big SUVs. GM could get ahead in the game if it simply relied on suppliers to develop its high end trannies.

1487

"GM's incentives are down? That's like saying Lindsay Lohan only had 5 Yeagershots!

From $3300 to $3k. Wow! Can you hear the applause?

Toyota incentives are all the way up to $1600. And half the lineup has none."

a) provide some sources of your info
b) please tell me which half of Toyota's lineup lacks rebates. In my area EVERY Toyota except Prius is rebated and get dealer cash on top of that. Trucks and SUVs are at least $4k off MSRP based on ads. You cannot sell a Toyota in this area without discounts.
c)The best pickup truck resale values belong to a domestic brand as far as I know, I think it might be the GM trucks.

Mr_Shiftright

yes it looks like GM is making money overseas right now, but the home market is about "break-even" at best, and market share continues to drop, once again, even in this profitable quarterly report. It is the relentless drop in domestic market share that suggests further downsizing might be in order for GM.

Visiting Host

1487

"Are you just making up stuff now? "

the answer is yes, and this is nothing new as you will see.

1487

i think they are downsizing. They got rid of thousands of workers last year and will be looking for more concessions this year to enhance flexibility. I dont think domestic share will decline forever, but who knows where the bottom lies.

1487

"When you compare the Lucerne to the Avalon abd Azera pricing you neglected to take into consideration the old 4 speed transmission in the Lucerne vs. the six speed in the Avalon and Azera !"

The avalon doesnt have a 6 speed tranny. Only camry V6.

nippononly

The speculation I saw this morning is that they may do away with the STS once they get the RWD DTS in place using the platform that will go under the new G8.

If they make the DTS a truly competitive large RWD sedan that can go up against Lexus and the Germans, it seems like the STS would be pretty redundant in the line-up, so I am thinking this is a good thing. Sales of the STS have been much slower than hoped for.

1487

I had the opportunit to rent a dodge charger for four days recently. That experience confirmed to me that GM is making serious headway and continues to be the only domestic maker that is capable of fielding products that can honestly be cross shopped with the imports. The Charger was a base model and I wont hold that against it. I do know many options are available but the standard equipment was meager. No rear armrest or cupholders, no auto headlights, 4 speed auto, weak 2.7L engine, no grab handles, small vertical outside door handles instead of pull type handles found on most current Gm vehicles, etc. Not to mention the hard plastics on the front armrests, the shiny black plastic dashboard, numb steering and the unrefined engine sounds above 2000 rpm. The good points were the ride, stereo with aux jack, lack of road noise and large trunk. Even though this car and the lacrosse I rented last fall were only a few thousand apart in price the lacrosse felt like it was on a much higher level. I'm not even going to give the lacrosse points for having more options because it did cost more, but the basics were just better. The plastics, gauges and standard content were superior.

I am the first to say GM needs to dump the 3800 ASAP but I will say the 3800 is superior to Chrysler 2.7L V6 in every way.

chetj

i have never had to repair a GM transmission on the 3 i have owned...i put a lot of miles on my cars too

lemko

Me neither, and I have owned a lot more GM cars than 3.

Now, Ford on the other hand...

1487

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070730/FREE/70730006/1528/n- ewsletter01

got to love the Toyota PR machine. They arent against radical CAFE standards because they make trucks, they are against them because they care so much about their domestic competitors. Just one more reminder why I cant stand Toyota, they are full of it and the press and politicians love them. I really enjoy the last comment in the article by a congressman who laments Detroit for stalling fuel efficiency changes while Toyota is flooding the market with Prius. Apparently that idiot is unaware that the Highlander and Tundra outsell the Prius, not to mention the camry and Corolla. I guess he missed the fact that 90% of Toyota sales are from gas only vehicles.

grbeck

1487: The fact is GM makes a lot of vehicles and a lot of 4 speeds.

You said it, I didn't.

grbeck

1487: Just one more reminder why I cant stand Toyota, they are full of it and the press and politicians love them.

First, if you are waiting for most politicians to actually show some knowledge about the auto industry...you will be waiting a long time.

Second, the "press," which in this case is Autoweek, did tell the whole truth. Here is a quote from the article:

A key reason for Toyota's lobbying stance: The company has made big investments to add full-sized SUVs and pickups to its U.S. lineup. The toughest fuel economy standards could constrain sales of luxury cars and large pickups and SUVs, including Toyota's, some industry observers say. (emphasis added)

Based on that excerpt, it seems as though Autoweek is telling the entire story, and not just quoting Toyota press releases. Of course, one must read more than the first two paragraphs of the article to get it.

michaellno

I don't believe the Astra will be available before September at the earliest. From what I've seen / read on-line, it may not be released until the holidays.

nippononly

Oh geez, I didn't realize it was still that far away. That probaby explains why all the "test drives" I have read in the car mags talk about driving the European model.

michaellno

And, like you've mentioned, the ION is starting to become scarce in the dealer lots, so there may be many months before Saturn has a small car available to them.

I do believe that Saturn is moving in the right direction, product wise. I'm also hoping that the next generation Corsa will be made available as well .. would be a great Fit / xD / Versa / Accent / Rio / Yaris competitor.

Would also love to see the Zafira make it over here as well.

imidazol97

>consideration the old 4 speed transmission in the Lucerne vs. the six speed in the Avalon and Azera !"

Isn't it amazing how the foreign lovers twist the facts. Funny how that works.

bmark

Same here I have owned 5 G.M. cars (of course 1 was for 8 months) but never had a transmission problem. 1 car even had 110,000 miles

imidazol97

Parked next to a 92 LeSabre at the post office and the guy coming out commented about our leSabres were both red but vastly different in years. He had 250K miles on it. He let his daughter have it for a while below 100K and she drove it something like 37K miles without changing or checking oil (his words). He got it back and did a quick oil change and follow up change. He drove it on his "route" and does 400 miles per week. Has ever since. Yup. Those GM cars just aren't made as well--you know th story.

m1miata

Interesting. Good ol' Chrysler first offered the Charger as a 3.5 base and the 2.7 as a rental fleet car. You would not want the 2.7 - no way. Lack of power, and I am not sure about sludging. Would research that before buying anything with that engine. Should be some info. on the Net in that regard.

The Charger is just wrong period. They were first going to model the car off the looks of the Intrepid, and it was pretty slick and sporting. It ended up this block of steel with those too tall doors. The car drives OK, but the steering is a little light. As for feel, I don't know, and would have to drive it more. Once steering is on the light side, I am less interested. Overall it cruises well. The 3.5 engine is good. It is not a lot of power however, so one could imagine the 2.7 to be overwhelmed.
Loren

m1miata

There's the problem! People only buy one or two cars when they are Buick owners. They never get bored driving the same sleepy car around for decades. Lets see the score, as they bought all those which lasted forever-never buy again and those less fortunate which bought those which did not last long have sold long ago and may not be buying a new one anytime soon. I think we are on to something here.

I learned how to drive in a '61 Buick LeSabre, which was a pretty darn classy looking car back when. Very powerful engine, plenty of chrome and sense of being something a little more upscale than say the average family car. Just went on Edmund's to look at the '92 LeSabre. Good looking and handsome car. Not sure I would be excited with the thought of keeping it a lifetime, but I would say the style is simple enough to last a lifetime. Now a '96 Camaro with a 3.8V6 or a 350 V8 may be a car which captures the eye, and is possibly better looking than say 90% of cars / SUVs on the road today. But this does not mean the LeSabre is not handsome enough, and may show up in a car show some day in the future. Could happen.
Loren

nippononly

I agree with you, especially on the Corsa. I am not sure why they haven't already made definite plans to import the Corsa as a Saturn.

Will the Astras initially be shipped from Europe, or will they be building them here? And what is the final fate of the beloved Spring Hill plant? I almost took my '94 to the annual rendezvous in '95, shoulda' done it. :-)

daveok7

You have absolutely NO idea whatsoever what's really going on in the rebate world !!!!!!!!!!!!!! GM is NOT competitive in ANY category with Chrysler, Toyota, and Ford !! GM has stated many, many times that they would rather lose market share than cut their prices. Well, guess what? They are getting their wish.

daveok7

GM's relentless drop in market share is because thay are NOT price competitive with their competitors. Simple as that ! Somehow GM seems to think that they deserve a price premium on every one of their vehicles over and above the competition. This never used to be the case. As proof, look at their incentives VS. their competitors.

62vetteefp

From the folks actually developing and building the batteries. No bull here. Not ready for 2010 but no reason it will not be ready soon after. Main issue is validation in the auto environment which takes time.

http://www.autolinedetroit.tv

tjc78

"GM is NOT competitive in ANY category with Chrysler, Toyota, and Ford"

I must admit I am a bit of a Toyota fan (3 in a row) however if any one of the domestics is going to fight off the imports its going to be GM. I have my issues with GM, but you've got to be kidding me if you think Chrysler has their act together more than GM.

"they would rather lose market share than cut their prices"

Please give us a few examples of which models from the General are so overpriced compared similarly equipped Toy/Hon/Nis. You will find the MSRPs similar in most cases. Your out the door price will most likely be lower on the GM because of the rebates. Isn't a rebate the same as lowering the price?