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General Motors discussions

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  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    All I can add is GM is finally designing and building cars I would consider buying. That is a first since I've been following the auto industry. That's what matters to me. No doubt they have to do what ever it takes to be profitable, but building desirable vehicles is what really matters.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    xrunner2: If American voters elect Clinton, no one will ever have to worry about health care in the U.S. She said that she learned a lot from her 1993 experience on health programs and has the correct approach today.

    The realistic approach is to have people pay a greater percentage of their health care costs and be more rigorous about maintaining healthy habits, and I don't think that many people want to hear that from Senator Clinton or anyone else, unfortunately.

    As I recall, the UAW was lukewarm about her 1993 proposal, because it would have offered less generous benefits than what UAW members had then (and today, for that matter). Maybe with health care costs threatening to sink one or all of the Big Three, the UAW has changed its tune in the regard. A union-administered health care fund would be a big help for the companies, and would open the UAW's eyes a little more as to what is really driving the cost of health care (hint - it's not greedy doctors or insurance companies or drug companies; it's people living longer and demanding the latest and greatest medical treatments and drugs).
  • chuckhoychuckhoy Member Posts: 420
    Socalized medicine does not ensure that everyone gets great medical care. It just ensures that everone gets the same medical care. There is a big difference between the two. And, of course, the rich will still get better care than the rest of us because they can afford it.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    All I can add is GM is finally designing and building cars I would consider buying. That is a first since I've been following the auto industry.

    Same here. Now GM is putting out very competitive cars and crossover. However, there is still one problem: They are not putting out "must have" cars. This may not be a problem if all they want to do is maintain its current market share but will be a problem if they want to "regain" its lost market share.

    I am 25 and on my 4th cars. All my previous and current cars are imports and was happy with them. When I go buy a car I will definitely give GM a look given that the CTS, Aura and the Lambdas are all great choices. However, based on the previous record I will then ask myself: Why do I want to mess with success when I can get the same thing (if not better thing) from Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and BMW?

    Of course, on the other hand, a happy GM owner will do exact the same opposite. The result from this type of buying behavior will be: GM owners continue to buy GM and import owners continue to buy imports. GM will not be any worse than it was couple years ago but it is hard for them to pick up market share.

    Until GM puts out some "must have" cars, this trend will continue.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I don't believe they are shifting design and production out of the US, just trying to streamline and co-ordinate efforts between the worldwide design teams, as they will be working on different models of the same platform to be sold in different parts of the world.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Did you ever think about becoming a police officer?

    Yeah lemko, but you got to have a department willing to sponsor you pal. We had 18,000 ex police officer's looking for work in 2006 thus their is strong competition for every opening. Unless you want to live in Detroit, which has many area's less safe than the streets in Bagdad, you can't get a sponsorship to get MCOLES certified. I've put in for several law enforcement type jobs but the competition is unfortunately just tough pal. :( The bottom line is Delphi, is now talking about shutting down a plant in Wisconsin and laying off 200 meaning those folks will have preference and recall rights when ever Delphi's Wyoming, Mi. plant hires. They got to call back the elgible Coopersville, workers first shattering any hope of working their any time soon. :cry:

    Lemko, only if you knew what I'm going through pal in my divorce. :sick: At least you appear to have a very good women and she is marriage material. :)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yeah Sloan, was a pretty good one as well. ;) ROTFLMAO at the Roger Smith comment. Can his side kick be GE's Jack Welch ? :D

    -Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Jack Welsh? We could only wish most US mfg. companies were as strong and well regarded as GE.

    In 1980, the year before Welch became CEO, GE recorded revenues of roughly $26.8 billion. In 2000, the year before he left, the revenues increased to nearly $130 billion. When Jack Welch left GE, the company had gone from a market value of $14 billion to one of more than $410 billion at the end of 2004, making it the most valuable and largest company in the world.

    Hmm, I don't think you can put him in the same category as Roger Smith.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I'm thinking the Pontiac version would get the LS3 instead of the deuce.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Was he a great CEO and business man ? Yes !!!! Do we give more credit than he deserves ? Yes !!!! Like come guys how hard is it to close factory's on U.S. union labor and send them over sea's and have a administration in the White House, where the leader is whacked with Alzheimers giving tax breaks for off-shoring business. I'm just saying you need to look beyond just numbers and he took the biggest company in the world and moved them over seas. It does not require a high I.Q. to make a microwave in Malaysia, for penny's on the dollar instead of the U.S. :confuse:

    Did he give a frogs fat [non-permissible content removed] about any of his employees ???? Nope !!!! That is why he got nick named "Neutron" Jack Welch, not Welsh diesel. He was the "Pol Pot" of U.S. manufacturing for the tens of thousands of jobs he slashed here in the U.S. and when he retired his golden parachute was worth any where from a half-billion to a billion in total compensation. :mad:

    A little fact about the "Neutron" one !!!! ;)

    http://money.cnn.com/2002/09/06/news/companies/welch_ge/

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Perhaps..... The HSV Holden Commodore will likely spawn the GXP version and boy what a performance car that will be. :shades:

    -Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Bottom line, Welsh did what CEO's are paid to do. Increase shareholder value. You may not like his motives or tactics. But none the less they were effective. He did not run GE into the ground like Roger Smith did with GM. I did not say he was a nice guy. Nearly $400 billion was added in market cap was added under his tenure. So he got nearly a $1billion of it. Good for him.

    GE still employs over double the number GM does in the US. We're certainly not alone when it comes to losing manufacturing jobs. Since 1995 the world has lost 22 million manufacturing jobs yet production is up 30% (Other countries have lost a lot more than the US).
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I always thought automation would of saved more U.S. jobs than it has. What I'm getting at is while their would be less people per plant with higher productivity in return their would would be more plants, with less people but more manufactoring jobs here in the U.S.

    The bottom line is until they repeal the trade treaty's and implement trade barriers or tariffs, I'm afraid the continous trend of lost manufactoring jobs will unfortunately continue. :(

    -Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Trade barriers will do nothing to stop the loss of manufacturing jobs as long as productivity continues to increase. Might slow the loss down in certain industries, but that's about it.

    I've tried to find concrete evidence proving protectionism is a good idea. I haven't found any yet.

    I'm about a quarter of the way through reading Robert Reich's book Supercapitalism. So far it's interesting.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well you have to just look at the wealthiest average citizen nations in the world and see what form of governments they have and how they handle trade. ;)

    A little hint: They are considered by us as protectionist. ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Is it possible we could see a AWD version of the G8 here in the U.S. ???? I'd like to personally see a HSV Commodore G8 GXP with XWD as a option. :)

    I guess that is on my GM wish list !!!! :shades:

    -Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Well, the US is number 7 and the countries listed above are extremely small and have little effect on world trade
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    One would logically assume it would be tougher to maintain their kind of standard of living lacking the natural resources of a place like the U.S. ;)

    -Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    One would logically assume it would be tougher to maintain their kind of standard of living lacking the natural resources of a place like the U.S. ;)


    No one would not when we use/import more energy/natural resources than any other country. Bottom line is we have still have the strongest and most diverse economy in the world. Protectionism will not help us.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well that strong economy is falling slowly but surely on it's face. The war is the only thing keeping it from a major melt down recession and once that happens then autosales will of course slide. ;)

    -Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Well that strong economy is falling slowly but surely on it's face. The war is the only thing keeping it from a major melt down recession and once that happens then autosales will of course slide. ;)


    Rock, please explain to me how spending $50-60 billion a year in Iraq is keeping our $13 trillion dollar economy afloat?

    So is it only the war profiteers that are buying cars?

    A recession is certainly a possibility, it wouldn't be the first and certainly not the last.

    Trust me, there are many things I'm not happy about with our current administration and I have genuine concerns about our country. I just don't agree that socialism and protectiontism is going save or even help us.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Supposedly the VE isn't AWD capable as-is, so I'd say you're out of luck.

    The CTS has optional AWD, but not with the manual. :confuse: :mad:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Jack Welch has a book called "Winning." There should be some discrete text below it "at any cost." Sure, Jack got a golden parachute King Midas would envy, but it's stained with blood. Hope Jack sleeps well at night. The people around the former GE factory in Philadelphia can't with all the gunshots.
  • chuckhoychuckhoy Member Posts: 420
    Trust me, there are many things I'm not happy about with our current administration and I have genuine concerns about our country. I just don't agree that socialism and protectionism is going save or even help us.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the European governments that are the most socialized trying to move away from that kind of government? Isn't government run healthcare and cradle-to-grave welfare crushing the governments of Germany, France and the UK? Just look at the unemployment rates over there. Any European leader would be nominated for sainthood if they ever got unemployment anywhere near as low as here in the US.

    I, too, have a lot of problems with the current administration but I don't think the US system is that far out of whack. No system of anything created by man can be perfect because it will be created by imperfect people. But, as I look at all the flawed systems out there, I think ours is pretty darn good compared to most. Warts and all.
  • chuckhoychuckhoy Member Posts: 420
    Jack Welch has a book called "Winning." There should be some discrete text below it "at any cost." Sure, Jack got a golden parachute King Midas would envy, but it's stained with blood. Hope Jack sleeps well at night. The people around the former GE factory in Philadelphia can't with all the gunshots.

    What was the alternative? Bankrupsy? Closing down? Yes it sucks for the people that got laid off, but what if the whole company went down the tubes? Then everybody gets fired and nobody wins. The good of the many...
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the European governments that are the most socialized trying to move away from that kind of government? Isn't government run healthcare and cradle-to-grave welfare crushing the governments of Germany, France and the UK? Just look at the unemployment rates over there. Any European leader would be nominated for sainthood if they ever got unemployment anywhere near as low as here in the US.

    I, too, have a lot of problems with the current administration but I don't think the US system is that far out of whack. No system of anything created by man can be perfect because it will be created by imperfect people. But, as I look at all the flawed systems out there, I think ours is pretty darn good compared to most. Warts and all.


    I agree 100%. I just read an article a few weeks back about all the problems France is having. Seems their social programs have produced a generation of workers that are neither motivated or productive. Many college grads leaving the country to find work. Many living off the backs of few will not work.

    The UAW/Big 3 relationship is in the same boat. I just don't see how GM can afford to pay the benefits provided in the labor contract. The environment has changed in so many ways. It's not one issue that is the problem. I don't see how GM can survive in its current form if major changes in the labor contract aren't made.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    What was the alternative? Bankrupsy? Closing down? Yes it sucks for the people that got laid off, but what if the whole company went down the tubes? Then everybody gets fired and nobody wins. The good of the many...


    Yeah, apparently it's the job of a company to guarantee jobs.

    Its this mentality that will take GM down.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Unmanageable immigration policies created by mistakes set in motion after the war are in large part to blame as well, if not primarily - a false guilty conscience creating a desire to put everyone on the dole. It is more of letting anyone in to live off the dole than the social programs themselves. I lately read that Sweden had the largest emigration experienced since 1892! France of course is an outright disaster, probably unreclaimable, and England is following in that direction. This is seen throughout western Europe, and it bodes very poorly for the future.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    The UAW/Big 3 relationship is in the same boat. I just don't see how GM can afford to pay the benefits provided in the labor contract.

    Well, if they agree to it, then their beancounters must say the money is there. Then all they have to do is make sure the cars they put out are the ones people want. So far, w/ the lambdas, '08 CTS and Malibu, they may have some.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Interesting article about the test drive of the Vauxhall in Australia. Wonder if the Edmunds driver had experience driving on the wrong side of the road. If not, would not want to drive as he did where a mistake could be very, very costly.

    Profile and rear of Vauxhall are pleasing, but front end is awkward just as show car of Pontiac G8. Must still be some stylists at Pontiac left over from Aztek that are doing grilles.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Well, if they agree to it, then their beancounters must say the money is there.

    Way back when, when GM had 50% of the market and the other two had the rest GM did have the money to support the contracts. The last 20 years as the market share has dropped in half they have been trying to reduce the contact cost while they downsized and put even more on the retirement doles. Yes they can pay off their debts for the next few years with the right product but it sure would be more profitable if they did not have the debt from the last 40 years of business.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    No doubt. A whole host of reasons why GM was able to support contracts many years ago and why they can't now.

    Health care increases are big part of it. The fact that retirees are living much longer is costly too. I saw somewhere, that in the 50's on average a worker died 5 years after retirement. When you got people retiring in their late 50's, it's expensive to support them for 20-30+ years. Then add the fact that you have less market share, and less workers to support the legacy costs and it becomes simple. You can't afford to do it.
    retirement changes Very interesting.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    You're letting them off too easy. I read somewhere that if GM's median transaction price was as high as Toyota's, GM would be able to meet the legacy costs and still have a few billion left over. GM's current woes come from giving up the high-margin car market for too long and simultaneously agreeing to open-ended financial commitments. Both of those derive directly from bad management.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I read somewhere that if GM's median transaction price was as high as Toyota's, GM would be able to meet the legacy costs and still have a few billion left over. GM's current woes come from giving up the high-margin car market for too long and simultaneously agreeing to open-ended financial commitments. Both of those derive directly from bad management.

    Also very true. But one issue with the vehicles sold by GM is the profit margin. Even if GM did get the same median ATP as Toyota they would have a much lower profit margin due to larger overhead due to a host of reasons with the healthcare/retirement the largest one. When GM started the slide downwards and the profit margins got slimmer than Toyotas and others they, perhaps foolishly, started to cut cost out of the vehicles in an attempt to keep the profits and keep the plants running (which they had to do to keep the profit margin because their profit came from high volume). A downwards spiral then commenced. Now they have bit the bullet and are closing plants to rightsize to current marketshare. They are finally listening to their Marketing and Engineering and putting the cost back in the product. Now they have to cut the overhead the imports do not have.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    When GM started the slide downwards and the profit margins got slimmer than Toyotas and others they, perhaps foolishly, started to cut cost out of the vehicles in an attempt to keep the profits and keep the plants running (which they had to do to keep the profit margin because their profit came from high volume).

    Union contracts that make it very hard for GM to layoff/close plants certainly added to the problem. I'd think if both sides would have been rational many years ago, when it was obvious GM needed flexibility and the UAW needed job security, they could have kept GM competitive. Instead they got neither and the UAW is facing tough times and GM has find away to get out of the huge hole they are in.

    It's going to be a huge challenge. Good product will go along way to help GM continue to get stronger.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Yeah, I was actually going through school to finish off the BS when I was between jobs and landed at the gen-set place. I was lucky to have that position and then I lucked up and found the position I'm in now. The BS I was obtaining and then later on dual Masters Degree didn't really help at the gen-set place, but my past experience in the industry helped. So it was a give-take but paid the bills for a few months until I landed here. And the whole divorce thing, unfortunately I can't help there either (hell I can't keep a steady GF).

    You're right about the BA, unless it has "M" in front you won't even be looked at. And it's getting to the point you better not just have a cookie-cutter one MBA. There better be some type of specialization / concentration attached.

    I hope the interview today works out for you. Maybe you can get a doing security at Delphi.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    That's a GREAT point!!!! I think GM and the UAW are trying to manage the healthcare with that "VEBA" program that would be administered by the union.

    Your last (great) point about retirement is a whole other ball of wax, something that probably threatens our Social Security. Back in the '50's those people that were dying 5 yrs after retirement probably started working when they were 16, some dropping out of high school to do so, and working till they were 65.

    Today, most don't enter the workforce full time until 21 or 22, when they finish college, and want to be done at 55. this presents a problem if you have a pension:

    Instead of working for 48 yrs.(18-65), then collecting a pension, benefits, and SS, for say 15 yrs (die at 80) you now work 33 yrs(22-55) and collect for 25. That is alot closer # to yrs worked. Employers are now putting out more for retirees than employees, and we have a smaller workforce to pay SS for people who just live longer.

    I don't think that this is a union problem per-se, because many non-union people can make enough in a 401k over 30-35 yrs to tide them over till SS kicks in, and live very comfortably off both, like pensioneers do.
    I think the answer is some sort of self control to keep us in the workforce until we are 60, so we contribute to the system more. Maybe incentives to do so.
  • chuckhoychuckhoy Member Posts: 420
    You're letting them off too easy. I read somewhere that if GM's median transaction price was as high as Toyota's, GM would be able to meet the legacy costs and still have a few billion left over. GM's current woes come from giving up the high-margin car market for too long and simultaneously agreeing to open-ended financial commitments. Both of those derive directly from bad management.

    I don't think GM can equalize the MTP with Honda/Toyota until the perceived quality gap has been bridged. I say perceived because it has been mostly bridged and the quality surveys seem to back me up. Anyway, a lot of people would opt for the Honda/Toyota when presented a comparable GM car at the same price. The thinking is "Why would I settle for a GM when I can get the Toyota/Honda for the same price."

    I still believe that in order to win back "import" owners, GM has to make a car that is of the same quality as Toyota/Honda for a lower price. Then do it consistently for a few years. Then they will win people back instead of keeping the people they already have. I think they can do it with the Lambdas, Aura, Malibu and CTS.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Or they can offer better cars than Toyota/Honda does for the same price.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Well, I think you'll see with the "boomers" that they will not retire like their parents did. My dad is 55. He is in good health, has a good job, and he isn't even considering retirement anytime soon. He enjoys working. Unless his health situation changes, I see him working easily another 15 years.

    Social Security has incentives to wait. Retire later and get some more cash per month.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    If Philadelphia didn't have tax and regulatory policies that are about as anti-business as possible, maybe GE wouldn't have left in the first place, or at least another employer would have been willing to move in and continue employing the workforce.

    Like it or not, the Northeast in general, and the Philadelphia-New Jersey-New York City region in particular, has become a high cost place to do business, and not one that is very cost effective for manufacturing operations.
  • chuckhoychuckhoy Member Posts: 420
    Even if they WERE better would people BELIEVE they were better? I'm talking about normal people. You know, not us.
  • ballbuzzterballbuzzter Member Posts: 1
    What is the current tire size with the Opel? GM states the AStra will be released with standard 16inch wheels - so I wonder if they are going to go down the Mazda route with the speed rated, low profilers?

    If they want to sell this car in the north east, it better have a 55 or 60 sidewal option rather than the mazda 50 or below.

    Anyone of you Europeans have an idea?
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    I work in NYC and it astounds me how NYS does nothing to go out and get jobs. States in the South have done such a good job of bringing major manufacturers in and we just sit back and let them have them. Most of the state is not like NYC. So many upstate cities and towns would benefit so much if we could get an auto manufacturer to look at it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Buffalo does tons of recruiting and a few years back some town Upstate was bussing people from the city up to try to convince them to resettle there and made the news.

    Of course, every state and region has an economic development authority bidding for those same jobs. And all those freebies and incentives can increase the tax burden to those already there.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    I grew up in New York (partly in the Buffalo area) but now live in the Virginia suburbs of Washington, D.C. And Buffalo (and Detroit and Cleveland and places like that) certainly have their work cut out for them in attracting new employers, especially high paying ones. Not just the taxes, or the prevalence of unions, but maybe just the reputation of those places as dying and dreary places. I used to think it was the climate, but cities like Toronto and Edmonton are boom towns, and they are pretty cold places. We in Virginia certainly have low taxes (income, sales, property) but also bad roads- but that's the tradeoff.

    Getting back to GM's fortunes, Boone Pickens is an old oilman who has pegged the market pretty accurately over the years. And he predicts that oil will be over $100/barrel next year- meaning $3.50/gallon in the U.S., maybe higher. Is GM's product line ready for that? They were caught flat footed in 2005 and 2006, how about now?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM Holden Ltd.’s all-new VE Commodore Ute range includes a A$46,990 ($37,817) SS V V-8 model that will be the auto maker’s most expensive and high-performance 2-door car-based pickup (CBP) ever.

    The upscale move is aimed at strengthening Holden’s position in the premium sports-pickup market, which also includes Ford Motor Co. of Australia Ltd.’s Falcon Ute. Both vehicles essentially are modern renditions of the classic Chevrolet El Camino and Ford Ranchero, respectively.

    The new Holden vehicle also could form the basis for another VE Commodore-derived model to be exported to the U.S. alongside the upcoming ’08 Pontiac G8 sedan. Media reports say Holden already has sent some prototypes to Detroit to be evaluated for export by parent General Motors Corp.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Well they have this:

    The Saturn franchise boasts one of General Motors' better portfolios. The addition of the 2008 Astra hatchback is going to make it the place to shop if you're after a stylish, sporty ride.

    When it arrives later this year (likely in December), the Astra will be offered in two models -- a funky three-door in XR trim and a more conventionally styled fivedoor in XE and XR trims. From the front bumper to the B-pillar, each is essentially the same. The key difference, number of doors aside, is the roofline and rear side glass. The five-door is a traditional hatch, while the three-door has a racier roofline and pronounced triangular window that makes it look sleeker.

    All models are powered by a peppy 1.8-litre four that's married to a five-speed manual transmission (a four-speed automatic is optional). The peppy pickup is down to the 140 horsepower, 126 pound-feet of torque at 3,800 rpm and the manual's gear ratios. First (3.73:1) and second (2.14:1) bring surprising hop off the line. The engine is also a smooth operator. The idle is refined and even when stretched to redline, it retains its composure (there is some noise, but nothing like GM's old fours).

    Driving the cars back to back through the twisty roads west of Frankfurt brought the differences to the fore. The five-door has an accomplished ride that is comfortable and capable, while the threedoor is as good as anything in the class. Body roll is benign and understeer only surfaces when the driver takes liberties. I preferred the three-door's sharper steering feel and feedback (the rack ratio drops from 15:1 to a faster 14:1).
    The Astra is a decent set of wheels. It handles nicely, has lots of power (the inevitable Red Line edition should feature the Opel Astra's OPC engine, which means 240 hp), it is attractively finished, well equipped and comes with the required versatility. The only thing that remains to be done is to put prospective buyers in the car. If Saturn can do this, the Astra will sell itself. Pricing has yet to be announced, but expect the entry-level five-door to start at around $17,500 and the threedoor to start at about $20,000.
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