General Motors discussions

andre1969

There really is no need for the 3800, it can be replaced with a DOHC 3.6. The question regarding the pushrod V6s is a good one. Why have a 250 hp DOHC V6 and a 240 hp pushrod V6? There is a cost savings with the pushrod engine, so perhaps the 3.6 should be dumped? Probably not.

I'm not sure, but doesn't the 3800 still get slightly better fuel economy than the 3.6 DOHC? That might be one reason for keeping it around, just for CAFE purposes.

Which 240 hp pushrod are you referring to? The 3.9? I've heard that the 3.9 was actually designed for copcar/taxi service, which pretty much demands a fairly simple, cheap, durable engine. They just offer that engine in some of the other cars to get more of an economy of scale out of it. I don't think the 3.6 DOHC would quite fit the bill in this kind of service, but you never know. After all, Crown Vics have been SOHC since 1992. And DCX offers an SOHC 3.5 V-6 in their Charger/Magnum police cars, as a slightly more fuel-efficient alternative to the Hemi. I get the aura (pardon the pun) that the 3.6 DOHC is supposed to be more of a "premium" engine though.

louiswei

DOHC engines will not reduce costs. However, they would justify higher prices.

Yes it will.

Toyota is able to cut $5,000 on each 3.5L 2GR V6 it produces comparing to the old 3.3L V6. I don't see why GM can't do it with its 3.6L V6.

bumpy

From a global perspective, GM does need the 2.8 and 3.2 versions of the HF V6. Supposedly the HF will go up to 4.0 liters, which would work for the truck applications. I'd ditch ALL of the pushrod V6s and the Atlas I6 family for the HF series across the board, which would reduce the unit costs nicely.

sls002

The 3.6 liter DOHC engine costs nearly 5000 to replace.
the 3.9 is a bit over 3000 (and the 3.5 is the same price).

Those prices are wholesale (so the website says). The difference is about $1500. If GM can add $1500 to the price of current cars with pushrod engines, then making a DOHC engine standard can be done. I don't think GM can save $1500 per engine by eliminating pushrod production and replacing with DOHC engines.

louiswei

Just think how much GM can save by having a simplified production line. You have to overlook the cost of each engine and looking at the whole picture.

sls002

The whole picture is that GM makes millions of engines, not a few thousand. Making millions of DOHC engines will cost billions extra.

sls002

that putting 4 over head cams in each engine costs more than putting 1 cam in.
putting 2 valves in where 1 will work also costs more.

lemko

All I can say is that I hope the UAW isn't foolish enough to strike 'em. They'll look like those greedy baseball players back in 1994. Major League Baseball has yet to recover from that big black eye. I remember the baseball players planning on striking a few years later. That would've been the end of baseball as we know it.

chuckhoy

A strike now would be the death knell for GM. I have a hard time believing that the UAW brass is stupid enough to destroy the company that employes the most UAW workers. It seems extremely short-sighted and counterproductive to me.

louiswei

You really have no idea how much a simplified production line can save do you?

lemko

Agree. They'd be killing the golden goose who's just recovering from a 30-year bout with cancer. If they strike now, I'll lose all respect for the UAW and feel no pity for any of them when they all end up begging for quarters on Chestnut Street.

sls002

You have not posted any thing on what saving they would have either. I doubt very much that you know. I would agree that by reducing the number of car V6s to one basic engine, there would be a cost saving. The greatest saving would be to build the pushrod engine, but building all DOHC engines would be somewhat cheaper than the current DOHC engine. However, the total cost of all V6 engines would probably be higher. However, this is a guess on my part. The 3800 is cheaper to buy than the 3.6:
http://www.newgmparts.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getLocator&siteid=213815&- chapter=DP1ZA3&appSectionid=10&make=4&model=Lacrosse&year=2007&catalogid=1

fezo

Oh, absolutely. They can't be stupid enough to go strike GM now. I prefer to think that they are just positioning themselves to take as light a hit on givebacks as they can. Despite much evidence to the contrary I don't think the guys on either side of the table are stupid. They have done stupid things over the years but both now have all their accountants and a pretty good idea of what has to be done.

Meanwhile, the Aura was a dumb example on my part, but the multiple choice option thing is something they've got to tame down somewhat. Toyota is just as bad in that respect. Honda goes too far the other way - "Oh, you want a stick and a sunroof? That means you need 4 wheel disc brakes and you can't have it in red. Oh, and if you wants four door and a 6 cyl you can't have a manual.".......

sls002

Will they allow GM to finally close down the 3800 production?

fezo

Beats me. I'd hope so but that mentality of keeping things going just for the sake of keeping them going is pretty deeply ingrained.

ensconced

I agree completely with that article.

GM and Ford will find it difficult to lure customers away from Honda and Toyota because they are dealing with a lot of irrational people. Every time I have gone to purchase a new car I march off to Honda and Toyota because of the ratings. Every time I come away shaking my head and assume I'm not in on the joke. That fully loaded, $30,000 sticker, Accord drove like a $20,000 Ford. I know I'm not a rocket scientist but I don't understand what is going on. This time I didn't even bother with Toyota.

Ford and GM are large enough where they can serve up the mush for the masses and still have their niche brands for the rest. But they need to recognize this, do they?

Ford had it right with the Lincoln LS. Instead of tweaking what they had, they dumped it and went to the MKZ, a pre-LS style Lincoln.

GM has it right with the G6. I rented one a month ago and really liked the car. Now they just need to determine what the car does right and improve on the rest.

louiswei

I personally will never pay $30K for ANY FWD midsize mainstream sedan. If I have to pay $30K then I'll just get an Acura TL and call it a day.

However, in my experience the Accord drives very different from Fusion. The engine is much better, drives more refine and has an overall better balance. Even the Camry SE is a better drive than the Fusion IMO. Fusion has a nice interior but is still a notch below Accord.

Also, just so that you'll know, calling other people irrational doesn't automatically make you rational.

gsemike

Most people choosing a Honda or Toyota over a Ford or GM may be considering:

- that the typical $20,000 Accord or Camry is better that the comparable Fusion or G6
- their own negative experiences with GM and Ford products

To imply that the masses are irrational is a little self serving.

I'm glad that you liked the G6 but it falls short in alot of ways.

volvomax

The GNX was a TERRIBLE car

Yeah, SO terrible they pull in $80,000

Yeah, 20 yrs later,and only if they are mint w/ Zero miles.

At the time,they were one dimensional cars.

volvomax

Well Saab, appeals to the people who might not be able to afford that 2nd hand car and need a daily driver that is well fun to drive in all weather conditions. That is where the Saab, brand has made it's mark IMHO

Thank you,you made my point.
SAAB is a wannabe brand,not a real lux player.

62vetteefp

I do remember thinking that the Lexus cars had some of the best paint jobs...nice, deep lustre, very little orange peel.

There's a black Camry in the parking lot at work, either a 2005 or 2006, and its orange peel looks pretty bad to me. At least, it was nothing to brag about compared to a GM or Ford. Or maybe the paint booths are higher quality on some assembly lines than on others?


Lexus is made in Japan. The Toyota probably built here. Different governments, different rules.

Also has a lot to do with the age of the paint facility. It is the most expensive part of a plant and it is rarely changed. You can completely gut the rest of the plant ot build a different vehicle but you think hard about redoing the paint shop. So the vehicle built in one plant will perhaps have a 10 year old paint system vs. the same car in another plant that has a 1 year old system.

louiswei

Lexus is made in Japan. The Toyota probably built here. Different governments, different rules.

Uh...NO.

Lexus RX and ES are made here, Almost half of what Toyota sells here are also made here.

62vetteefp

Just think how much GM can save by having a simplified production line. You have to overlook the cost of each engine and looking at the whole picture.

First they are built on different lines so a simplified line is not really an issue. 2nd, engines are built in manufacturing modules so everytime you want to increase volume and your current modules are full then you add a mudule. The HF V6 modules are more expensive than the HF V6. The cost savings will come through volume buys of components which may save $50/engine in cost. Also you would need less Engineering/development resources for having 1 instead of two V6's (3800 is really dead and not taking any resources). So maybe there is $50 in that cost. So you would be able to cut $100 off the $750 cost differential between the engines.

So the question would GM sell more vehicles and make more profit it they replaced the Value V6 with the high feature V6 and added $1400 to the price of the vehicles? In my opinion they would not. Perhpas they could add only $1000 to the price but I still feel in the lower lines like the Chevy most buyers would take the cheaper V6 and the $1000 savings.

62vetteefp

A strike now would be the death knell for GM.

No, it depends on how long. GM has built up enough stock in most models to last almost 2 months. That would be a long strike and I rally doubt the UAW workforce would do it. Too many of them are already in trouble financially with the latest housing and recession we are in. Especially in Michigan.

62vetteefp

Will they allow GM to finally close down the 3800 production?

Nothing to do with the UAW really. That plant knows its death date. It is just making enough engines to last out the current Lucerne and LaCrosse models and then it will be gone.

andre1969

They only built something like 547 GNXes in 1987, and they were pretty much a collector's item from the get-go. So chances are, most of 'em survived, in great condition. Now the more humble Grand National and T-type, that's a different story. Seems like a lot of them survived though. Very rarely are they stock anymore though, as they've been chipped and had other mods to get more power out of them.

In retrospect, the Grand National wasn't the most sophisticated thing in the world, but they had a lot of bang for the buck. My Mom bought a regular Monte Carlo with a 305 for something like $14K back in 1986, and I doubt it a Grand National would've been a whole lot more. I'd guess maybe $17K if it was fully loaded?

chuckhoy

Where you save a lot of money is the behind-the-scenes costs. For each engine you have to design, build prototypes and test before you ever get to production. It would save a lot of development costs to just have a few different engine options. For all your bread and butter compact/midsize cars they all get the same engine choices regardless if it a Chevy, Pontiac or Saturn. Something like:

I4
I4 Turbo
V6
Supercharged V6

Compact car gets the choice of the I4 or I4 Turbo. Midsized cars get I4, V6 or Supercharged V6. This way you can concentrate on making the best engine you can and all the brands can take advantage of it. You also don't have a bazillion different engines sucking up resources.

The average buyer cares little if his Ion has the same engine as the Cobalt, as long as it is a good engine.

62vetteefp

Actually as of last year(2006 calender year) the ES was still built in Japan and I am unaware of it being built here but my data may be old/incorrect. Could you give me a link showing this?

Despite being built at the Kyūshū plant in Fukuoka, Japan,[7] the ES 350 was not sold in the Japanese market.

I am aware of the RX being built starting 2004 or so in Canada. I thought the earlier comment was about a car.

62vetteefp

Where you save a lot of money is the behind-the-scenes costs. For each engine you have to design, build prototypes and test before you ever get to production. It would save a lot of development costs to just have a few different engine options. For all your bread and butter compact/midsize cars they all get the same engine choices regardless if it a Chevy, Pontiac or Saturn. Something like:

That is where I put in the $50/engine. Would not be much more. GM sells a lot of those engines.

sls002

Someone posted somewhere (in a GM forum here) that the 3800 has continued in production because the UAW contract required it. I don't know. Perhaps the poster was an idiot.

louiswei

I was mistaken about the ES350, sorry.

62vetteefp

Perhaps 5 years ago an agreement was made to keep the plant open. Not sure. But today it is open because GM does not want to reengineer/redevelop a different V6 for the LaCrosse and Lucerne in their current guises..

sls002

The LaCrosse already uses the 3.6 on one model, so that argument is not valid. The Lucerne was all new in 2006, so it could have used the 3.6. I can see that the 3800 is a better engine than the 3.9 perhaps, although I have some doubts.

dudleyr

It happens every morning on the Saw Mill and Hutchinson River Parkways in the New York area.

Sounds like they need to relax a little out there. No wonder so many people complain about poor gas mileage.

cooterbfd

If you got an honest dealer, yeah $17K would do it.
BTW here's one w/ 14K miles, which means it was enjoyed for the collector car it was.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Buick-Grand-National-Buick-Grand-National-GNX-431- _W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6137QQihZ015QQitemZ250163862071QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD- VW

Anybody knows that most all American Muscle cars were straight line cars (except the vette).
For the $20K it cost in 1987, it was EXCELLENT bang for the buck.

Here's an '89 911 w/ HALF the miles on it selling for LESS than new.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1989-PORSCHE-911-Speedster-MINT-Original-RARE-Lo-- Resrve_W0QQitemZ320157374200QQihZ011QQcategoryZ10156QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmd- ZViewItem

So, I guess the original owner of the GNX did well on his investment.

62vetteefp

The LaCrosse already uses the 3.6 on one model, so that argument is not valid. The Lucerne was all new in 2006, so it could have used the 3.6. I can see that the 3800 is a better engine than the 3.9 perhaps, although I have some doubts.

What arguement? The LaCrosse is a W car which has had the 3800 in the previous Regal/Century versions and the Grand Prix. When the LaCrosse was being developed the 3800 was kept as the lower engine choice for a couple reasons. It was a well known/wanted engine for Buick buyers. The 3800 was well proen.

cooterbfd

Lexus RX and ES are made here, Almost half of what Toyota sells here are also made here.

According to Automotive news, only the RX is made domestically, and only 22% of Lexus' are made locally. Everything else lists as an Import.

michaellno

It happens every morning on the Saw Mill and Hutchinson River Parkways in the New York area.

Even though I don't live in NY, I have visited there a number of times and the issue is that those roads were built in the 30's and 40's and the on ramps are devilishly short -- maybe 100' long, in some cases.

You have to floor it to get up to a speed where you can safely merge into traffic.

Here's hoping for an Astra Red Line - 260HP turbo from the Sky RL -- woo hoo!

dieselone

IMO, the 3800 has no business in a Lucerne, but man most of the Lucernes I see have the 3.8, so I guess the intended buyers don't care.

sls002

I think that the reasons are that when the LaCrosse was put into production, the value V6s were not available, and the 3.6 was available on a limited basis, with most of them going to Cadillac. So, the 3800 was available, and Buick customers were used to it, if not expecting it. The Impala is also a W car, but since the new edition came out later, the 3.5/3.9 value engines were available, so they were used. The Grand Prix, also a W car, uses the 3800, probably because the supercharger gave it some performance, but the GP went into production before the value engines were in production too.

sls002

I agree with you, but have to point out that both the Lucerne and DTS are dead end products. Both will be replaced with new platformes, most likely RWD. I really can't see why anyone would buy the FWD Cadillac if they drive one of the RWD's. Even my SRX is much better handling than the FWD Seville was.

lweiss

I think a strike against GM would get them to the 15% market share that is realistic for them. People on the coasts already think that GM vehicles are poorly made by UAW workers that are more in it for the money and benefits than the non-union domestic or foreign workers that do it for the sake of excellence (not true of course, but that is the perception!). Really sad, GM has a place in the world but a small place in North America, and a strike could make it even smaller. Sad commentary on unions in America, at one time they had clout, now globalization makes them almost irrelavent.

lemko

I'll miss the 3800 V-6. It was an excellent economical engine.

volvomax

A strike would also tempt GM to declare bankruptcy,and do away with the UAW alltogether.

rockylee

Thank you,you made my point.
SAAB is a wannabe brand,not a real lux player.

LOL, well we will see which brand is standing at the end of the day. I suppose Volvo, could become a Chinese made premium brand. :P

-Rocky

rockylee

Well lemko, imagine being faced with losing 50-75% of what you earned just before you retire ?????? I doubt a strike will happen unless GM, is being very unrealistic with concession demands.

-Rocky

fezo

Yeah and Andy's two examples definitely fall into that category.

It's been a long time for me but the Merritt Parkway in CT is the same way.

rockylee

http://www.saab.com/main/GLOBAL/en/movie.shtml?movie=frankfurtturbox

-Rocky

volvomax

LOL, well we will see which brand is standing at the end of the day. I suppose Volvo, could become a Chinese made premium brand

Now, you are just being foolish.
I mean c'mon,what kind of nonsense is that?
Volvo FAR outsells SAAB and is actually PROFITABLE.
Please,have a little common sense?

cooterbfd

I suppose Volvo, could become a Chinese made premium brand

Don't rule it out altogether, or India for that matter.

Bottom line is, because they need cash, Ford is dumping them, and both countries' auto industries are itching to get over here.