Once Cadillac gives the CTS a V8 and drops the current base V6, punts the STS upstairs, and develops a true 3er competitor, then the CTS will match up against the other mid-level luxury sedans.
I will also have to agree with others that I believe the CTS will be compared against the 3 and others, but not the 5-Series and that group.
When I drove the '07 CTS a few months back, and even before for that matter, I didn't think the vehicle compared to the 5-series and the like. Though the car was decent, to me it just didn't compare to the 5ers I've had seat- / driving-time in. To me it didn't have the panache to go up-level, a good 3-series competitor for price-conscious buyers. Maybe the '08 will be different, will reserve judgment until I get some good seat-time in it. Just my opinion.
I actually bought my S10 years ago from a Chevy/Cadillac dealership. The showrooms at the time were in separate sections of the same building but they shared the same parking lot, new/used car lot and service bay. The dealer used to be Chevy and Caddy/Olds but when Olds bit the dust, it was combined into Chevrolet.
I have also seen a Caddy/Buick dealership.
My uncle works for a Chevrolet/Cadillac w/ Toyota dealership in Columbus, GA, in the Peachtree area. New Chevys are intermixed with the Caddys, with the Toyotas in a separate lot right across the way, but all are under the same owner/roof.
...built a new stand-alone dealership and moved to the place just one month ago. It is next door to the Buick dealership my from which my girlfriend bought her LaCrosse.
It's funny how things change. The little town where my mom lives used to have a Chevy/Toyota (no kidding - they shared the same lot) dealer, a Buick/Caddy/Pontiac/GMC/Honda, and Ford and Chrysler dealers. Today, the Honda dealer is standalone under different ownership, Buick and Pontiac have moved to the Chevy/Toyota dealer, and I think Caddy and GMC might be gone. The others are unchanged.
I think the CTS will be priced in the 3-series price range. Perhaps in the upper end of the 3-series range, but well under the 5-series range. I think that the new interior is still not 5-series/E-class quality, although style may be quite good. I think that the CTS is a large (american sized) sports sedan, while the competition (3-series) is smaller.
When I drove the '07 CTS a few months back, and even before for that matter, I didn't think the vehicle compared to the 5-series and the like. Though the car was decent, to me it just didn't compare to the 5ers I've had seat- / driving-time in. To me it didn't have the panache to go up-level, a good 3-series competitor for price-conscious buyers. Maybe the '08 will be different, will reserve judgment until I get some good seat-time in it. Just my opinion.
That is my point. All the reviews of the '08 by the press give it huge kudos. It is so much better. But I guess the concensus is that it will be compared to the 3 series. Now, is the 5 series that much better than the 3 series or just bigger? Does the 5 handle that much better than the sister 3?
No, the Vette is kind of in a class of it's own. It has the performance of an exotic, but not the badge on the hood nor the "I can spend $X on a car" snob appeal. I don't think anybody cross shops a vette with a ferrari.
I don't think anybody cross shops a vette with a ferrari.
Pretty much true, however the mags do comparisons between them all the time.
Now we all know Caddy is attempting to move upscale into the BMW/MB ranks. So if the CTS is really 5 size then it would be interesting to see the results. Hey if they were very positive for the CTS and all mags said it was the equal of the 5 series then it is possible a price increase could happen and allow a 3 competitor some breathing room in the price arena.
If the CTS can be compared to the BMW 5 (in a non-condescending way) and not come out looking like a total chump, it would be a great victory for Caddy. I would say the 3 is the intended target. They are in the same price range, but could appeal to a broader audience because the 3 is a fairly smallish car. If you could fit the family in the CTS and still have fun in it, that sounds like a winner.
BUT if Saab sent away here in the states not a big deal.
I assume you meant Went away ? 62, having Saab die here in the states "over my dead body" :mad: I'd rather see Hummer, Saturn, Pontiac, die before Saab. In 3 or 4 years we will see a totally new and revived Saab, brand.
Holy Smokes as lemko, would say. That is the best news I've heard in a while. Jim Press, was the genious behind Toyota, and a guy like him can't be easily replaced.
This is a day to celebrate !!!! Cheers !!!! :shades:
Well their future looks brighter than some of the other luxury marques on the trading blocks like Jaguar. Volvo, has redesigned and revised some of it's products but sales are slow and the current S60, is what 5 MY's with out a refresh or redesign ? :surprise: The S80 is a nice looking car but it's severely under powered and get's very pricey once youadd the AWD and V8 options.
62' I think the CTS, would hold it's own just fine against the Twin Turbo V6 5 series. It's cheaper, less complicated, and anyone saying the build quality of BMW, is so much better should check out J.D.
Hopefully some body will have the grape fruit to do a fair unbiased comparo.
LOL, my grandparents got their DeVille from there back in '89/'90 i think. And your right, the Capitol thing actually started breaking off of theirs. I was up there last weekend to see if there was a new CTS in and they were all sold, but there is a new black DI Nav one in now so i'm going to check it out tomorrow if it's still there.
EDIT: I just saw you're from Glen Dale...I live in Lanham, right off 450. Small World! :shades:
Recent magazines have some Cadillac advertizing with a large fold out picture of the dash. The dash is very nice compared to the first CTS, but there is either no wood trim or very little. Automobile has already (September issue) had a comparison test (CTS; 3-series; C-class). Quoting page 56 "the new...interior on the SRX is a better effort than the CTS, which is plagued by plastics of middling quality, gratuitous baubles, illumination in no fewer than 4 colors and cheesy type fonts"
I own the SRX with the new interior and which is a big improvement over the older CTS like interior, I think it falls short of the 5-series/E-class/Audi interiors. However, we don't have import dealers here, so I can't really compare.
Now, is the 5 series that much better than the 3 series or just bigger? Does the 5 handle that much better than the sister 3?
I kind of think of it this way: 3-series: small, sporty, for people starting out, the entry-level into the BMW world, for singles and/or young married couples; traces back to the 2002i from years ago
5-series: you've become established, have the home, nice position, a couple of kiddies. But also can have/want the sportiness, a la the old 540i Sport and the current M5
7-series: you have a title that starts with "C" and ends in "O" at work, or retired, highway burner, you've arrived
Add in the "6" & "8" for the biggies that have made it but "just need to have that hot performance coupe that's not a Porsche".
I feel that the 5 has enough going for it, other than size, that differentiates itself from the 3. It's kind of like the family-hauler, if you will, of the group. There's also the creature comforts, the style, engine options, status I guess. In terms of handling I think the 5 handles pretty good, not as sporting and tight as the 3 in some instances. I'm really a fan of the 540i Sport.
Again, that's what I take from the different series.
I think they miss the point of what happened over the years. Saturn was designed to compete directly w/ Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and VW. Back then the biggest cars they had weren't much bigger than compacts, and the ONLY SUV's were the 4-Runner and Land Cruiser.
Saturn came out w/ a nice lineup of COMPACT vehicles that were designed to lure customers away from the imports. They were successful at it for a short while, but that was the time when the imports were starting to introduce their luxury marques. By the mid-'90's the imports started expanding their lineups the grab some of the larger car market and cash in on the SUV craze. That is when Saturn had to re-invent itself, coming out w/ the Vue and L-series, even though they weren't true Saturns. Now, one could argue that they should've allowed Saturn to design their own larger vehicles, but business being business, it's obviously cheaper to share platforms, as allowing Saturn the independence to build exclusive platforms for a niche vehicle like an SUV or minivan wouldn't be cost effective. Remember, Saturn got A LOT of miles out of the old SL platform, even if it never made money. I doubt they could've pulled it off financially on their own. So, yes, "Saturn-A Different Kind of Car Company" may be dead, but that doesn't make the Astra, Aura, Vue, and Outlook worse vehicles because of that fact. In fact, they may very well be BETTER because of it.
My mother, and I went and saw the first G6 GXP either one of us has seen late this Friday night. I must say it looks better in person than in photo's. It was a Black Coupe with the Hammerhead spoiler with tan leather with grey inserts. It's very sharp :shades:
I also have been seeing Buick Enclaves, on the road here in Grand Rapids, as often as the common Camry.
I also did across the street and checked out the 08' CTS in person and my god it also looks better in person than in photos. It was Jet Black also. It wasn't however fully loaded. However I could just picture one loaded out though.
Next up on the list of vehicles I want to check out is the new Malibu.
The car magazines have said that the 3-series handles best and is not unlike a sports car. The 5-series, with the V8 will out perform the 3-series, but does not have the same handling qualities.
For BMW, the 3-series is the big seller and brings in a lot of cash. The 5-series is a luxury sports sedan for the customer with more money. The 7-series is too big to be a serious sports sedan, but is a large (for Europe) car, and can be thought of as a sports limo (at least for the longer model). The 3-series is a small car. The CTS is a bigger car, which may appeal to objective customers (who are not looking at the brand name so much as what they get for the money).
In 3 or 4 years we will see a totally new and revived Saab, brand.
What exactly are thew plans for Saab? More GM rebadges aren't going to do anything for it. With Saturn being the EuroGM, I don't see how GM would put the effort and resources into unique models for Saab.
I did see a 9-5 on the street last week. It was pretty underwhelming all around.
Jeeze, what did they sell last year, 30,000 cars? How does a brand stay afloat like that, and how can there be a light at the end of THAT tunnel?
And with Saturn being an Opel outlet, where does that leave Saab. an "Opel Super outlet"? I have a sneaking suspicion that Saturn is being propped up to serve double duty in the future...
Saab sold more than 133,000 vehicles in 2006. Their prime market is Europe, not the USA. GM is in the process of developing global platforms, so the GM models in one country will be much like those in other countries.
Now that there is a competitive lease program for it,the S80 is selling well. The 3.2 is no rocket ship, but it is more than adequate for most people's needs. The S80 T6 can hold its own with any car in its class,and it starts only $4 grand more than the 3.2. The V8 is a good car,but at over $50 grand you are dealing with perception more than reality. It is a very good value,but the people buying sedans over $50k aren't really interested in value,they want cachet and prestige.
Even so, Volvo's future is FAR brighter than SAAB's. The reason is that Volvo is in charge of their own engineering destiny and SAAB isn't.
Agree. When I had my seat time in all of them (BMWs and CTS as passenger as well as extended driving time) I felt the same; didn't go by what the mags state. Again, I look at the BMW as a good stepping-type model; start at the 3, move up to the 5, then 7; but also have some hot coupes (6 & 8-series) and 2-seater runabouts (Z3, 4, 8) to fill in the niches.
I really don't go by the mags as law, I prefer my own seat-of-the-pants feel and real drive time in the vehicles. That's why I'll reserve overall opinion/judgement of the '08 CTS until I drive it.
Have a question concerning the '08 Malibu: what are your thoughts if the new Bu flops? With what seems to be quite a bit riding on it, at least for the Chevrolet division, does Chevy/GM have other products / options that can step in in case the Malibu doesn't meet the demand GM hopes/wants? Do you think these buyers would go to the Saturn version or Pontiac; would something else in the GM stable gain their attention?
Not playing devil's advocate, not bashing, just want opinions / thoughts from the group on the question.
I think the new Malibu will do quite well given that it has a decent looking exterior and a great looking interior. However, I'll reserve my final judgment until I actually sat in one and touched every panel inside the cabin. Same thing goes for the CTS.
I personally don't think the sales number will be too impressive for the new Malibu since there will be no (or very very little) fleet sales. By what I understand, Chevy will keep the current Malibu, rename it Malibu Classic and make it a dedicated fleet model. Much like what Ford did to the old Taurus during its final years.
Also, I think fall '07 isn't exactly the ideal time to debut the Malibu since the new Accord will hit the dealer floors around the same time.
I think that the Malibu is a bit larger and will replace the FWD Impala when the Impala becomes a RWD. Not all current FWD Impala customers will want the smaller Malibu, but I think the new Malibu will have a broader appeal. The DOHC engines will not hurt either.
Looking at the interior space specs, there does not seem much difference from 2007 to 2008.
Saturn's are not available every where (nearest dealer to me is over 300 miles away).
By what I understand, Chevy will keep the current Malibu, rename it Malibu Classic and make it a dedicated fleet model. Much like what Ford did to the old Taurus during its final years...
Was thinking that as well, was wondering if there would be a Malibu Classic selling along-side the new Bu. I kind of do like the idea of keeping the new Bu out of the rental fleets as much as possible, putting the Classic in that spot until it's kaput. (It seems this is the new trend, keeping the older body around another season, making it "Classic" while the new one gathers steam. Not sure how effective this is.) Though the total sales may be down I think in the end if they not make it a rental queen, and keep the line on incentives... Agree on the reserves final judgment for Bu and CTS.
The new Accord sedan is hitting the lots now, with the coupe coming next week
"By what I understand, Chevy will keep the current Malibu, rename it Malibu Classic and make it a dedicated fleet model. Much like what Ford did to the old Taurus during its final years..."
Chevy did exactly this when the current Bu came out. They stuck to it for about a year before the Classic went bye bye and the current Bu flooded the rental lots.
The new Bu looks ages ahead of the current. It should compete but is not likely to dominate.
Even so, Volvo's future is FAR brighter than SAAB's. The reason is that Volvo is in charge of their own engineering destiny and SAAB isn't.
I beg to differ. Ford owns Volvo, which last time I checked is still bleeding red ink for the year. I personally like the future out look of Saab, a lot better than Volvo. At least GM, isn't putting Saab, up for auction like Ford, is doing with Volvo. :P
Glad to be back home but good jobs are hard to find. I've applied for about a dozen more positions yesterday. I might have to settle for something below me until a oppertunity opens.
I think that the Malibu is a bit larger and will replace the FWD Impala when the Impala becomes a RWD. Not all current FWD Impala customers will want the smaller Malibu, but I think the new Malibu will have a broader appeal.
IF there is a FWD Impala the new Malibu will not be big enough to replace it. Impala has a huge 6 seat following. BUT the next Malibu, eps II, will be big enough and I hope they are able to fit a "bench" in it. That is the reason the LaCrosse went with the W platform instead of the eps, eps just cannot put a "bench" type seat in the front.
At least GM, isn't putting Saab, up for auction like Ford, is doing with Volvo.
And from what I hear there are no takers. Hate to say it but Volvo may have a short future ahead. Hopefully some private enterprize will take it off Fords hands and make a go of it.
Comments
Will this CTS V8 be other than the CTS-V?
I will also have to agree with others that I believe the CTS will be compared against the 3 and others, but not the 5-Series and that group.
When I drove the '07 CTS a few months back, and even before for that matter, I didn't think the vehicle compared to the 5-series and the like. Though the car was decent, to me it just didn't compare to the 5ers I've had seat- / driving-time in. To me it didn't have the panache to go up-level, a good 3-series competitor for price-conscious buyers. Maybe the '08 will be different, will reserve judgment until I get some good seat-time in it. Just my opinion.
I have also seen a Caddy/Buick dealership.
My uncle works for a Chevrolet/Cadillac w/ Toyota dealership in Columbus, GA, in the Peachtree area. New Chevys are intermixed with the Caddys, with the Toyotas in a separate lot right across the way, but all are under the same owner/roof.
And the Vette is compared to those high priced exotics, right?
That is my point. All the reviews of the '08 by the press give it huge kudos. It is so much better. But I guess the concensus is that it will be compared to the 3 series. Now, is the 5 series that much better than the 3 series or just bigger? Does the 5 handle that much better than the sister 3?
I think I may have been assuming something I should not have. I think all know the CTS-V is getting a V8 but which one is unknown.
Why do you think this? None are in the publics hands yet? And the press that I have read says anything like that. Do you have a link?
thanks
Pretty much true, however the mags do comparisons between them all the time.
Now we all know Caddy is attempting to move upscale into the BMW/MB ranks. So if the CTS is really 5 size then it would be interesting to see the results. Hey if they were very positive for the CTS and all mags said it was the equal of the 5 series then it is possible a price increase could happen and allow a 3 competitor some breathing room in the price arena.
I assume you meant Went away ? 62, having Saab die here in the states "over my dead body" :mad: I'd rather see Hummer, Saturn, Pontiac, die before Saab. In 3 or 4 years we will see a totally new and revived Saab, brand.
-Rocky
This is a day to celebrate !!!! Cheers !!!! :shades:
-Rocky
-Rocky
Hopefully some body will have the grape fruit to do a fair unbiased comparo.
-Rocky
EDIT: I just saw you're from Glen Dale...I live in Lanham, right off 450. Small World! :shades:
Sorry Rocky, but you can't rehab from death. SAAB died a while ago, and the corpse parted out to the rest of GM's collection of excess badges.
I own the SRX with the new interior and which is a big improvement over the older CTS like interior, I think it falls short of the 5-series/E-class/Audi interiors. However, we don't have import dealers here, so I can't really compare.
I kind of think of it this way:
3-series: small, sporty, for people starting out, the entry-level into the BMW world, for singles and/or young married couples; traces back to the 2002i from years ago
5-series: you've become established, have the home, nice position, a couple of kiddies. But also can have/want the sportiness, a la the old 540i Sport and the current M5
7-series: you have a title that starts with "C" and ends in "O" at work, or retired, highway burner, you've arrived
Add in the "6" & "8" for the biggies that have made it but "just need to have that hot performance coupe that's not a Porsche".
I feel that the 5 has enough going for it, other than size, that differentiates itself from the 3. It's kind of like the family-hauler, if you will, of the group. There's also the creature comforts, the style, engine options, status I guess. In terms of handling I think the 5 handles pretty good, not as sporting and tight as the 3 in some instances. I'm really a fan of the 540i Sport.
Again, that's what I take from the different series.
Back to GM...
Saturn was designed to compete directly w/ Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and VW. Back then the biggest cars they had weren't much bigger than compacts, and the ONLY SUV's were the 4-Runner and Land Cruiser.
Saturn came out w/ a nice lineup of COMPACT vehicles that were designed to lure customers away from the imports. They were successful at it for a short while, but that was the time when the imports were starting to introduce their luxury marques. By the mid-'90's the imports started expanding their lineups the grab some of the larger car market and cash in on the SUV craze. That is when Saturn had to re-invent itself, coming out w/ the Vue and L-series, even though they weren't true Saturns.
Now, one could argue that they should've allowed Saturn to design their own larger vehicles, but business being business, it's obviously cheaper to share platforms, as allowing Saturn the independence to build exclusive platforms for a niche vehicle like an SUV or minivan wouldn't be cost effective. Remember, Saturn got A LOT of miles out of the old SL platform, even if it never made money. I doubt they could've pulled it off financially on their own.
So, yes, "Saturn-A Different Kind of Car Company" may be dead, but that doesn't make the Astra, Aura, Vue, and Outlook worse vehicles because of that fact.
In fact, they may very well be BETTER because of it.
thanx for the update pal.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I also have been seeing Buick Enclaves, on the road here in Grand Rapids, as often as the common Camry.
I also did across the street and checked out the 08' CTS in person and my god it also looks better in person than in photos. It was Jet Black also. It wasn't however fully loaded. However I could just picture one loaded out though.
Next up on the list of vehicles I want to check out is the new Malibu.
-Rocky
For BMW, the 3-series is the big seller and brings in a lot of cash. The 5-series is a luxury sports sedan for the customer with more money. The 7-series is too big to be a serious sports sedan, but is a large (for Europe) car, and can be thought of as a sports limo (at least for the longer model). The 3-series is a small car. The CTS is a bigger car, which may appeal to objective customers (who are not looking at the brand name so much as what they get for the money).
What exactly are thew plans for Saab? More GM rebadges aren't going to do anything for it. With Saturn being the EuroGM, I don't see how GM would put the effort and resources into unique models for Saab.
I did see a 9-5 on the street last week. It was pretty underwhelming all around.
And with Saturn being an Opel outlet, where does that leave Saab. an "Opel Super outlet"? I have a sneaking suspicion that Saturn is being propped up to serve double duty in the future...
That's not exactly a positive for Saab loyalists. They want their old offbeat built from jets company back.
The 3.2 is no rocket ship, but it is more than adequate for most people's needs.
The S80 T6 can hold its own with any car in its class,and it starts only $4 grand more than the 3.2.
The V8 is a good car,but at over $50 grand you are dealing with perception more than reality.
It is a very good value,but the people buying sedans over $50k aren't really interested in value,they want cachet and prestige.
Even so, Volvo's future is FAR brighter than SAAB's.
The reason is that Volvo is in charge of their own engineering destiny and SAAB isn't.
I really don't go by the mags as law, I prefer my own seat-of-the-pants feel and real drive time in the vehicles. That's why I'll reserve overall opinion/judgement of the '08 CTS until I drive it.
Not playing devil's advocate, not bashing, just want opinions / thoughts from the group on the question.
I personally don't think the sales number will be too impressive for the new Malibu since there will be no (or very very little) fleet sales. By what I understand, Chevy will keep the current Malibu, rename it Malibu Classic and make it a dedicated fleet model. Much like what Ford did to the old Taurus during its final years.
Also, I think fall '07 isn't exactly the ideal time to debut the Malibu since the new Accord will hit the dealer floors around the same time.
Looking at the interior space specs, there does not seem much difference from 2007 to 2008.
Saturn's are not available every where (nearest dealer to me is over 300 miles away).
Was thinking that as well, was wondering if there would be a Malibu Classic selling along-side the new Bu. I kind of do like the idea of keeping the new Bu out of the rental fleets as much as possible, putting the Classic in that spot until it's kaput. (It seems this is the new trend, keeping the older body around another season, making it "Classic" while the new one gathers steam. Not sure how effective this is.) Though the total sales may be down I think in the end if they not make it a rental queen, and keep the line on incentives... Agree on the reserves final judgment for Bu and CTS.
The new Accord sedan is hitting the lots now, with the coupe coming next week
That's true but that also indicates that Saab probably isn't a good fit for them going forward. It really hasn't been a good fit for them at all.
Chevy did exactly this when the current Bu came out. They stuck to it for about a year before the Classic went bye bye and the current Bu flooded the rental lots.
The new Bu looks ages ahead of the current. It should compete but is not likely to dominate.
The reason is that Volvo is in charge of their own engineering destiny and SAAB isn't.
I beg to differ. Ford owns Volvo, which last time I checked is still bleeding red ink for the year. I personally like the future out look of Saab, a lot better than Volvo. At least GM, isn't putting Saab, up for auction like Ford, is doing with Volvo.
-Rocky
-Rocky
IF there is a FWD Impala the new Malibu will not be big enough to replace it. Impala has a huge 6 seat following. BUT the next Malibu, eps II, will be big enough and I hope they are able to fit a "bench" in it. That is the reason the LaCrosse went with the W platform instead of the eps, eps just cannot put a "bench" type seat in the front.
And from what I hear there are no takers. Hate to say it but Volvo may have a short future ahead. Hopefully some private enterprize will take it off Fords hands and make a go of it.
I will add to or replace one of my cars with a car that has a full front seat. It's just a whole lot more comfortable.
I'm glad to hear you say that there is a group of buyers who want a full 6-seat capacity and would want the full front seat.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,