"factory rebates are usually only hald the discounts offered. Sure the average Toyota may only have $1500 in factory rebates but the dealers may tack on another $2k+ depending on model. All the ads I see say "$4000 of 2007 4Runners!" and what not."
So did you see a breakdown of the 4K off that was being offered on the 4 Runner like for example did the ad say or list: Factory Rebate: $2,000, Dealer Discount: $2,000.
GM Crossover Trio Lures Drivers Away From Asian-Brand Vehicles
Offerings Are Bright Spot Amid U.S. Sales Decline; Dealers Can't Get Enough
By NEAL E. BOUDETTE September 4, 2007
General Motors Corp. is struggling to halt declining U.S. sales, but it has a bright spot in the three large crossover vehicles it launched in the past year.
The Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook each have three rows of seats and look like big sport-utility vehicles, but they are lighter, have a smoother ride and get better gas mileage than SUVs. Made from many of the same parts, all three are selling briskly and have a GM plant in Lansing, Mich., running at full capacity, a key to profitable auto production.
More importantly, the trio is doing something few other Detroit vehicles can achieve these days -- they are pulling drivers from import brands.
Luring drivers of foreign brands back to domestic vehicles is a critical task for all three Detroit auto makers as they scramble to turn around their North American operations and stem their decades-long slide in market share. Fresh evidence of their troubles is due today in August vehicle-sales reports, which are expected to show continuing weakness for both foreign and domestic manufacturers.
Brian MacDonald is one driver attracted by GM's new crossovers. An investment-fund manager in California, Mr. MacDonald has driven nothing but BMWs and Mercedes-Benzes for the past 20 years. But last month, with the lease on his Mercedes ML-Class winding down, Mr. MacDonald leased a $45,000 Enclave, the most luxurious of GM's three models.
"If someone had told me a few months ago I'd be driving a Buick, my reaction would have been 'no way, no how,' " says Mr. MacDonald, 46 years old. The Enclave, he said, offers the roominess to haul around his three young children and the styling and interior comforts he was accustomed to with the Mercedes. Because the Mercedes ML sells for about $30,000 more than the Enclave, his monthly payment on the Buick was almost $300 lower.
GM, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC remain the dominant manufacturers of trucks, but sales of pickups and SUVs have been falling amid high gasoline prices and changing consumer tastes. With more and more consumers moving to passenger cars and crossovers, the Big Three have to step up their competitiveness in these segments or their turnaround efforts could be squeezed for cash.
But it is an uphill battle. About two-thirds of the vehicles GM sells through its dealerships go to customers who trade in GM vehicles, according to data from the Power Information Network, a division of J.D. Power & Associates. Only a fraction -- less than 3% -- go to people trading in vehicles made by Toyota Motor Corp. or Honda Motor Co.
The three new crossovers do much better. Half of all Acadias and Outlooks go to customers who trade in GM vehicles; about 20% go to people trading Asian-brand vehicles. For the Enclave, the numbers are slightly lower but still better: 44% of all trade-ins are non-GM brands; 14% of the trade-ins are Asian vehicles.
GM doesn't disclose profit margins of its vehicles, but other measures indicate the three crossovers are performing well financially. The company just added a third shift at the Michigan plant producing the vehicles, at a time when GM is trimming production of its full-size SUVs and pickup trucks.
Dealers say they can't get enough Acadias and Enclaves. "We're selling them as soon as they come off the truck," said Dan Marquardt, owner of Barrington Buick-Pontiac-GMC in Barrington, Ill.
At the end of July, GM had enough cars and trucks in inventory to last 70 days. But it had only a 22-day supply of Enclaves, a 32-day supply of Acadias and a 51-day supply of Outlooks.
Such tight supplies cut the need for sales incentives. "We're getting full price," Mr. Marquardt said.
It will be a challenge for GM to keep the three crossovers in this position. A Chevrolet version is in the works, and could skim buyers from the Buick, GMC and Saturn models. The Chevy model will be built in a different plant in Spring Hill, Tenn.
Write to Neal E. Boudette at neal.boudette@wsj.com
>Calling the Accord a benchmark after 5 years is something the press is fond of doing but the facts dont bear that out.
Right on. When the Edmunds review of the 2008 sedan mentions the expansion joint kerthuds and the tire noise due to minimal sound-proofing, they point out the flaws in the earlier model. But you'd never have known it had flaws to read about it earlier; they were the holy grail.
"Our ears also measured a slight reduction in tire hum and bump-thuds (a term we just coined) over the previous Accord. More sound-deadening material was part of the solution. But so were myriad changes to stiffen key parts of the body, including the floor panel, front wheel housings and upper suspension mounts."
Wow, if they can get people to pay $45K for a Buick SUV, all I can say is let the good times roll. This is not only bread and butter, but all the nice toppings as well for GM, as I am sure they are making a bundle of money. Can no way cost all that much more to make this thing that it does a car. If I had $45K to spend, there is no way I would waste it on a point A-B SUV VAN thing. Heck a Bimmer, or a Corvette (Kerbek discounted)/ CTS (for $32K)comes to mind. That Enclave looks to me like something worth around $25K maybe a couple thousand more. Maybe it is two years later? Oh well, guess I was never one to throw large sums of money around. Broderick Crawford is happy to know, Buick in its latest reincarnation is selling well, and raking in the money for GM. This is good! 10-4 over and out. Going code 7 for a cold one. L
If you want soft and quiet, you need a nice old LeSabre ;-) The Accord V6 was more about being a performance sedan, than a smoothie, lets have a couch chair car to drive experience. L
These news seem overly optimistic, the Lansing plan had only 2 shifts until 2 months ago and, if I am not mistaken, stopped production for 2 weeks recently. Demand has obviously overtaken supply.
Once supply is normalized, it is going to be hard to sell them at MSRP. In the past couple of months, even before the 2008 model came out, the 2007 Outlooks already had a $1000 factory rebate because too many dealers started to discount Acadias. It is a far cry from the days of $6000 off MSRP on other GM vehicles, but not as rosy as the GM dealership network would like us to believe.
I think you may have completely lost half of the thread readers with the BMW/Vette/CTS mentions as counterpoints to the Enclave high price. I am too lazy to hit the German building tools right now, but I can guarantee a comparably equipped BMW/Audi/Mercedes SUV will cost 10K more, and will carry much less. That is the beauty of the GM trio, short of the Taurus X and the CX-9, there is nothing on the road that has 3 rows of seating, room for 18+ CuFt. of cargo, and more than 16 mpg.
That is a great question indeed to ask -- when was GM great. You say the time is now. Hummm? Well they are doing well in SUVs and the CTS was pretty cleaver idea, and some may say they have the best Corvette or all times, though I am kinda still liking the C5 era. But greatness???
Wow, I would have to dig into the history here. Just off the top of the head, they had Buick Century for power, then the Olds Rocket 88 which took many wins on NASCAR, you had the age of quality coach works in the earliest of Cadillacs, and innovations like the electric starter, which they placed in cars first, and then there was the marvelous designs of the 60's with the GTO, Camaro Malibu SS, and the El Camino. Let's see the American sports car is the 1953 Corvette, which pretty much history wise is another banner year for GM. And then at one time, the most reliable, and powerful sedans and cool looking coupes were the Olds 442 by GM. Then for Buick there was the Riviera, which was a class act indeed. 1969 was the most popular Camaro of all times. Then there are those Eldorados, both hard top and convertibles. I recall when most limos were a Caddy or Lincoln. Aside of market share and HP, like you mentioned, GM was grace and style, with some interesting innovations along the way. Body by Fisher was some fine body builds indeed. GM was the style trend setter at one time. Now they build SUVs *yawn*. Anyway, between say 1904 and today, a lot has happened, and without writing a book, it is hard to encapsulate the history so all I can say is research it, and you will see these are the also ran ones. But remember first stabilize patient, then start the repairs as required. Hope this is what is happening. We are in the paramedics stabilization phase at the moment. L
Yes, love to explain: Fleet sales are due to lack of other ways to sell for top dollar. Why would they not use a Camry for police cars? Well they primarily use the RWD Crown Vic for police use. These are purpose built for the police department use. Can not see how there would be any market for Toyota, or profit in making such a car. I have no idea why they are using Impalas instead of Crown Vics in some areas, other than the snow problems. In this case the RWD works better. The Impala is big and cheap, which is good for the police dept. in the snow belt. Politics wise, it may be pretty hard to convince the taxpayers in parts of the USA to go with a foreign brand of car. You keep mentioning that Impalas are unreliable. Not sure why you believe this to be. You said I apply that the car is bad. I assume you meant to say imply that it is a bad car. And to that I say, oh no I did not say it is a bad car. It is good for a company car, a rental car, or for those in need of a slightly larger car than the mid-sized and like it. Like the car, then fine. It runs, and gas mileage is OK. Never said it was a bad car. For some it is like an old shoe that fits, and they do not want to throw out the sneekers for something modern. Nothing wrong with that. :shades:
OK, the Fusion, Sonata, are new and are going to fleet -- true -- this means they are not selling well. The Sebring is simply ugly on the outside and cheap looking on the inside ( IMHO, your mileage may vary ). Of course someone, somewhere USA thinks it looks cool and wonderful -- more power to them, they should be able to get a good discount. When you are desperate to move product, just dump it to fleet. Fusion and Milan with the 3.5 V6, if they got it or will get, should sell better. Nice looking cars, with a slightly big butt, but don't tell Interior is OK. If I was Ford, I would drop the Fusion and sell the Milan as the only model. Maybe Merc dealers would have Ford Premium division, as in top o' line in Fords. It would be Ford Milan, and Premium (Merc) Milan by Ford Mercury. Loren
"The Cadillac CTS, however, proved perfect. It matched the 3 Series for overall grins per mile, not necessarily because it handled better but because it was capable of dispensing with the road's constant bumps while remaining composed around the mid- and even low-speed corners."
I know GM has had innovations. It is there in history books and I was around when some of this stuff was new. I am saying nothing much current. You say look to today and I am, as I see today. They are still talking of things to come. Been there and done that.
You keep saying I hate GM. Does it make it so if you keep saying these things long enough?
I am thinking, if they stabilize GM, and work down debt and future obligations can be handled without breaking the bank, GM can once again place money into engineering and research, as well as, directly into every car built. In that respect, it is all about the future. L
That's nice. It is not a BMW3, maybe never be, and doesn't have to be one. I wonder if it is a better looking CTS?
It mentioned blipping the throttle into turns, while down shifting. Anyone know how you do this with an automatic transmission? Never heard of such a thing. But then again, never had a tiptronic or shiftronic tranny.
Wonder what it will look like? I kinda like the weird Art & Science, with an edgy look. Like the Accord, I see it got bigger. My word, why is this still plauging the auto world after all these years. Super size every damned thing. Recall the first Thunderbirds?
Well a bus carries the most people. Just buy an old Greyhound. Geepers for $45K, I would want something nice to drive. Just get a minvan for $20K for hauling kids, and spend the $25K balance on something fun to drive :shades: Life it too short for SUVs as only transportation. For $34K you could get a nice BMW3. I know recently they had Corvettes for sales new for $40K something, I think it was 42K. I can see that, but my word, an SUV is transportation, may as well get a Hyundai or Kia large barge at a fraction the price. Great warranty, less price. L
I don't know anything about Cadillac cars. I drove the 2007 Escalade and it runs circles around the Lexus LX 470. Better handling, performance, ride, seating, you name it. Lexus is not in the running for a True SUV. All they have are soccer mom mini CUVs like the RX350. I don't know anyone that wants one of them in the circles I run in. My daughter-in-law has the LX470 that I have driven a few times. It is nice just epitomizes the term LUXO BARGE.
The Denali is close to the Escalade. Still not quite up to what I would want in a new SUV. I will probably buy beaters from here on out. I hate plastic bumpers and crap looking vehicles. Not much left for a purist like myself. I did not like my 2005 Sierra as well as my 1999 Suburban. To me it was tinny built. My little beater 99 Ranger has a more solid feel than that 2005 Sierra. The amenities were much nicer in the Sierra. I like solid heavy vehicles. Not many built like that today.
why in the world would you base your opinions of GM on a 6 year old truck that was actually designed in the early 90s? I dont get it.
I actually think you're way too bright and DO get it. You're just being coy as usual. :P
Since you claim not to get it, I'll spell it out in detail. It's quite logical, actually.
Most people own cars 5-6 years. So their impressions are based upon vehicles that are not one year old, but 5-6 years old. I usually remember my last 2-3 cars, so that covers 5-15 years. In this business the buying cycles for most people are many years apart. Furthermore, given the $$ of a car purchase, people take it very seriously. If my DVD player breaks I go to Circuit City and spend another <$100. I don't care so much about the brand, because it's not worth fixing and it is not a lot of money.
As far as the GM truck being designed in the early '90's, you're making my point for me. If it's still on the market in the 2000's and it is 8+ year old design, then of course people will compare the "old design" since they might have bought it in 2000, even if it was designed in the early '90's. It's just old, noncompetitive product. If GM refreshed the product more often in this example, then we wouldn't be comparing to old stuff.
Your point about the latest GM products being much more competitive may be true, but the market is going to take quite a bit of time to adjust its perception of GM. It took decades to ruin the reputation and it's not going to come back overnight. Shows the cost of poor quality - it's a big job to earn that trust back.
I won't get into specific details but with 50-60 million folks uninsured, 5 million manufacturing jobs gone south or over seas, millions of service jobs lost to the 3rd world employed by foreigners living here or over sea's, gas/energy prices, housing costs, personal and business bankruptcy's, home foreclosers, employee benefit cuts in pension, health care, wage/salary, cost of a college education, national debt, personal debt, want me to continue ?????? :P I like I said stand by my claim. This is the worst economic situation this country has had since the great depression for average middle class american. The stock market's roller coaster ride of the wealthy playing a game of craps or roulette doesn't reflect the true economy americans are living in. The fact remains millions of americans that lost their good paying $40-60K+ job they had in the 90's are now making 30-40% less and Dubya's lips move and say retrain, retrain, retrain, we are in a global economy.
The reason why vehicle sales haven't totally hit a brick wall is because people are just financing them longer than ever before. What are we up to now 96 month term ?????
Sure we have a bunch of Arm Chair CEO's posting in these forums that are on their next million but the facts and statistics show otherwise for most folks that aren't better off now than they were before. :sick:
As far as GM, goes they have a couple of home runs with the 08' CTS, Enclave, Acadia, Outlook. I think the 08' Saab 9-3, will be a strong seller finally just like I think the new Malibu, will sell well. I still think GM, would of been wise offering a manual option on both the 3.6 and 2.4 engines for the Malibu. May be their is hope for the SS, but I doubt it since I see the GXP G6 will be automatic only !!!!! :mad:
Have you noticed that the new cars, mine included, have this blind spot called the A pillar? They say this is due to the need of accomodating the side air bags. I move my head side to side sometimes at cross walks just to be sure someone is not in a blind spot. When you make a left turn, you get to a point where there is another blind spot for a moment. It is like you set to turn and then lose the pivot point. I am thinking perhaps the next new car may be an older one. Some old classic, be it domestic or foreign without too tall door window sills, think A pillars, two hundred dollar keys, and without tall butts. Well a tall butt Corvette C5 era is OK :shades: and pretty cool.
As for trucks, our family had one, from Uncle Henry.That was way back back when, it was an 1950 truck. Talk about a real truck, that was some steel, with a harsh ride to remind you, you are in a real ranch truck. In the modern GM trucks, the last refresh looks a bit better to me than the previous model. Now as far as steel, I haven't a clue. My wild guess is something like the 1970's (late) or maybe into the (early) 80's are still heavy steel. Only thing I recall is people saying the tail gate works on a GM and the Ford was not as good. But what do I know. No truck expert. That old truck though was kinda fun to ride in -- in the back that is. L
I dont have a beef with Honda at all although I doubt I will ever own one. I have a beef with people putting Honda on a pedastal. Everything that the press tells you is exclusive to Honda is being done by the competition.
I don't know what you are talking about, please enlighten us. What is the press claiming is exclusive to Honda? Do tell. References please, otherwise we'll have to assume this is more excited arguing.
Honda is just another competitor and not the dominant engineering force that people make them oout to be
Well, Honda was the first car to come up with stratified charge engines in the '70's that didn't need catalytic converters. And Honda had ultra smooth v6 engines well over 200hp way before GM. Let's not forget that Honda has put out variable displacement engines on the Odyssey and I don't recall hearing about any mechanical problems (unlike the V8-6-4 from GM). Honda was one of the first companies with simple, mass produced variable valve timing in their VTEC setup. Let's not forget that Honda sold the first hybrid car in the US, the Insight. Honda also uses active sound cancellation to make the Odyssey and the new Accord quieter. All this while maintaining superior reliability to most other makes. I'd say that's a lot closer to a dominant engineering force than any other mainstream brand. Tell me about other dominant engineering from some of the US nameplates and we can compare who is leading in engineering.
It seems GM can find ways to sell big vehicles. It's the lack of attention to the smaller ones that's killing GM. Aura has been a complete failure --- Aura turned to be too heavy for an I4, and consumers are getting increasingly averse to using V6 due to high fuel prices. All hopes now rest on Malibu.
Can't have the Indy 500 without Honda engines, as they are the only engine builder for those cars. First year at Indy, they had the fastest car. The car was disqulifed on a yellow light or something, but they had an otherwise winning car, in the first en devour at Indy. L
Well the new Ecotec i4 engine may be wonderful, but I was raised back in the days when you only considered the four bangers from Japan. So in a way, I am still more likely to be looking for the V6 model in a USA car. OK times change, I am open to consider an i4 some day. That said, the V6 in the Aura XR is pretty darn good with good enough gas mileage. You may be right though, people may need to eke out yet another few MPG. They caught me as a car customer at a time in life I am will to spend more on the car for power and a little more for gas, to get a V6. Up to a few months ago, the most HP I had was the old Mustang at 200HP in the '65. I was always trying to save on gas and getting i4 cars, like the Opel, or V6 like the Starfire, and well let's just say, by gosh I needed a V8 or V6 with some power some day just to see how it feels, if for no other reason. Even my Stealth, which was fun, had but 164HP. Now I got my 244HP and love it. Will I even drive an i4 again, very much a possibility, as a sports car or coupe. Maybe as a Miata again, if I don't see myself in an inline six Bimmer called the Z3, or a old OHV monster called the Corvette.
I think there is room for those wanting to come down from a larger V8 SUV into a car, and the Aura V6 makes sense. The 3.6 mated to the six speed is even fun, with decent gas mileage. This should have been the focus of Saturn with the Aura. They should have made the 3.6 for say $22K, then up two levels for add-ons. And NO base 3.5V6 or the i4, be it hybrid or not. That hybrid MPG ain't that hot. L
I'm not basing my opinion on GM on a 6 year old car, but I expect any car should last 10 years or more. I drove the Blazer back to back with a 10 year old Pathfinder. The Pathfinder had held up better in every conceivable way from the interior staying together, the body not creaking and the engine not hesitating.
Since I look at cars as more than a 2 or 3 year proposition, why should I make the leap of faith that a new GM is going to age so well when the last one I was in didn't? The Pathfinder ran beautifuly and it was 4 years older.
retrain, retrain, retrain, we are in a global economy.
Retrain for what? Who's going to pay for this retraining - the guy/gal who just lost their job? Sorry kids! You gotta get something out of the dumpster for dinner while Daddy blows his unemployment check learning HVAC or computer networking with the 5,000 other guys who just lost their jobs at the mill. My Dad went to school when he lost his job and graduated at the top of the class. Other guys in the class who graduated below him got jobs, but not Dad. Why? Who's going to hire a 60 year-old man regardless of his qualifications?
Fortunately for Dad, all us kids were grown and gone and his house was long since paid for. Tomorrow's 60 year-old guys won't be as fortunate in such a situation. Housing prices are so absurd, most homeowners won't be paying off their mortgages, if ever, until their in their 70s or 80s.
This conversation is probably a better fit for the kiplinger site. I feel horribly for anyone that finds themselves in that position. It's still a stretch to say that this is the worst since the depression. The late 70s were awfully rough. We had double digit unemployment and inflation. There are some foreboding times. Let's hope that we navigate through it all.
"Right on. When the Edmunds review of the 2008 sedan mentions the expansion joint kerthuds and the tire noise due to minimal sound-proofing, they point out the flaws in the earlier model. But you'd never have known it had flaws to read about it earlier; they were the holy grail.
They do that all the time! C&D is famous for that as well. They have no complaints about a car like the Accord until the new model comes out. Once that happens they suddenly are able to recall all the flaws of the old model.
"You say look to today and I am, as I see today. They are still talking of things to come. Been there and done that. "
I totally disagree. Magneride, VVT on OHV engines, AFM (only Honda and Chrysler offer this), Onstar, steering wheel controls (mid 90s), two mode hybrids, stability control, Autoride suspension on the trucks, CVRSS on the last gen STS/DTS/ETC, remote start, Performance Shift algorithm on Cadillacs, the LS3 engine, LS7 engine, Atlas I-6 engine, the superhcarged Northstar engine, the 2L turbo engine, ventilated seats, active steering compensation, the DI 3.6 engine in the CTS, XM radio, etc. are all examples of innovations that GM was the first to have or amongst the first to offer.
Once again, you are not up to date on what GM is doing or has done in the last 10 years or so. If you exclude the luxury manufacturers I would like to know who in your opinion has been introducing more features than GM in the last decade? Please dont say Honda.
"Since I look at cars as more than a 2 or 3 year proposition, why should I make the leap of faith that a new GM is going to age so well when the last one I was in didn't? The Pathfinder ran beautifuly and it was 4 years older. "
my parents' car is 9.5 years old and doenst have parts falling off, no major creaks and rattles, the engine works fine and doesnt hesistate, etc. Its always dangerous to base opinions on used vehicles, you have no idea how that vehicle was maintained. furthermore the Blazer was last redesigned in 1995 as I stated, its hardly a modern GM product regardless of what you say.
do you honestly believe current GM products wont last more than 3 years without problems? LOL, that is a good one.
"The Pathfinder ran beautifuly and it was 4 years older. "
ran beautifully? what does that even mean? the engine worked? I would hope it does.
"So what's the benchmark in the mid-size class 1487? The Altima, The Aura or some other car in your opinion. "
Overall I would have to say the Altima is the current benchmark based on hp, features, size and innovation. I am counting the entire model lineup including the hybrid. The camry could also be considered but its high tech features are solely available on the XLE and hybrid model. Its also way overpriced and lacks handling on all model other than SE.
"ran beautifully? what does that even mean? the engine worked? I would hope it does."
No. If you don't know what it means for a car to run beautifully, then you're not really in a position to offer commentary on cars.
You've shown time and again, that you set the bar much lower than I do. That's why you defend GM so fervently, because as long as it runs, it's good.
A 10 year old car that runs beautifully starts easily, idles smoothly, accelerates without hesitation, shifts crisply, takes bumps with groans and creeks and drives straight without constant corrections or too much play in the steering. These are the things that the 10 year old Pathfinder did that the 5 year old Blazer didn't.
GM is on the offensive. The factory for Enclave, Outlook, and Acadia is running 24 hours a day at full production.
gsemike says: > If you don't know what it means for a car to run beautifully, then you're not really in a position to offer commentary on cars.
My qualification is that I've owned 9 GMs and had excellent service from each, so don't impeach my qualifications to be allowed to post here. My bar is set high, higher than the minimialization products I test drove from foreign brands in 87, 89, 93, 98, 03.
On top of that my 98 and 03 have NO creaks and groans. They both drive straight and don't have play in the steering. Talk about a low expectation level--if creaks and groans are okay. In that case I should have bought the hard seats and creaks and rattles in the 03 Accord I test drove!!!
gsemike says: >A 10 year old car that runs beautifully starts easily, idles smoothly, accelerates without hesitation, shifts crisply, takes bumps with groans and creeks...
>How do you keep the brakes from groaning when you let off the pedal? I've never been in a GM anything that didn't make that awful noise.
Again, are you trying to say that there's something wrong with all GM cars and their brakes? I can take you in my 03 and there's no groan, and there never has been. I can take you in my 98 and there's no groan. Maybe a REpairs and Problems discussion topic can help you isolate the cause there.
The news story this morning was that GM is selling those car as fast as they can make them.
I've never been in a GM anything that didn't make that awful noise.
I have sat in a Pontiac Vibe 2002 and in a 07 Outlook. No funny sounds coming from the brakes. Granted, the Vibe is a joint-venture with Toyota, but not the Outlook.
are you trying to say that there's something wrong with all GM cars and their brakes?
Not wrong, since the brakes work, just disconcerting. I've heard it in Cadillacs, Chevrolets, and everything in between. Something about the way GM designed their brake systems produced a noise that sounds like a zombie moan when the brake pedal is released from a full stop. I've never heard anything like it from other makes.
Can't have the Indy 500 without Honda engines, as they are the only engine builder for those cars.
Race Starter at Bell Isle in Detroit last Sunday at IRL Indy race said: "Ladies and Gentlemen, start your 'Honda' Engines".
GM not active in Indy 500 type racing but is present in NHRA. A Chevy Cobalt (with rear wheel drive) won Pro Stock Class at NHRA Nationals on Labor Day. Guess that will translate into extra Cobalt sales this week at Chevy dealers across US. These Pro Stock cars go 200 MPH in quarter mile. Chevy must build good engines for Cobalt.
imidazol97: Right on. When the Edmunds review of the 2008 sedan mentions the expansion joint kerthuds and the tire noise due to minimal sound-proofing, they point out the flaws in the earlier model. But you'd never have known it had flaws to read about it earlier; they were the holy grail.
Uh, no.
The testers never said that the previous-generation model was flawed in this regard. They merely noted that the new model is improved in this regard. Note that they said that their ears measured a "slight reduction in tire hum and bump-thuds." A "slight reduction" hardly sounds earth-shaking.
Just because Honda improved the Accord's ride for the new generation model does not mean that this was a fault of the previous generation.
Not wrong, since the brakes work, just disconcerting. I've heard it in Cadillacs, Chevrolets, and everything in between. Something about the way GM designed their brake systems produced a noise that sounds like a zombie moan when the brake pedal is released from a full stop. I've never heard anything like it from other makes.
Funny you'd mention that Bumpy, because I've noticed it, too. Mainly when I partially release the brake, such as inching up in a traffic jam. Seems like it's most noticeable in pickup trucks. I remember Granddad's '76 GMC crew cab making that noise, and my '85 Silverado does it too. My '76 LeMans does it a little bit. Can't remember if my '67 Catalina does it or not...I'll have to listen for it next time.
Do GM cars still make that noise? I guess I just got so used to it, especially since my '85 pickup is my main transportation now, that I just associate it with being "normal".
"While the factories for Silverado and Sierra production are cutting back production and laying off excess personnel. Robbing Peter to pay Paul?"
I can't fault GM for this. This is market forces at work. People that want the crossover are going to buy one over a Silverado or Sierra whether it's produced by GM or someone else. Credit GM for meeting the demand for the crossover.
imidazol97: My qualification is that I've owned 9 GMs and had excellent service from each, so don't impeach my qualifications to be allowed to post here. My bar is set high, higher than the minimialization products I test drove from foreign brands in 87, 89, 93, 98, 03.
Of course Buicks last long. Any car that spends its time puttering around the suburbs and never exceeds 65 mph on the interstate SHOULD be rattle- and groan-free.
Some of us have higher standards, because we expect more from our cars.
As far as GM, goes they have a couple of home runs with the 08' CTS, Enclave, Acadia, Outlook. I think the 08' Saab 9-3, will be a strong seller finally just like I think the new Malibu, will sell well.
If GM did design that noise out of the Lambdas and other clean-sheet vehicles, that would be progress of the good kind, and gets rid of one more barrier to convincing import buyers to consider their vehicles.
"No. If you don't know what it means for a car to run beautifully, then you're not really in a position to offer commentary on cars. "
actually I disagree. I have been posting on Edmunds/carspace for about 9 years- even before I owned a car. Secondly I have attended numerous manufacturer/magazine events and have driven everything from a Malibu to an LS400. I think I am well qualified to comment on cars and I suspect I have driven more vehicles than you have.
I have no need to "lower the bar" because GM is making competitive vehicles. If you drive a current model you may agree. If you drive 6 year old beat up used SUVs you may not agree.
"A 10 year old car that runs beautifully starts easily, idles smoothly, accelerates without hesitation, shifts crisply, takes bumps with groans and creeks and drives straight without constant corrections or too much play in the steering."
The '98 Intrigue does all of that. Its been maintained and it works fine. My parents' old Chevy idled smoothly when it was 12 years old. My '92 Suburu? not quite, the revs would often jump at idle or the car would mysteriously idle 500rmp higher for no reason when you started the car only to lower after a minute.
"If GM did design that noise out of the Lambdas and other clean-sheet vehicles, that would be progress of the good kind, and gets rid of one more barrier to convincing import buyers to consider their vehicles. '
Never noticed the noise on ANY of the GM vehicles I drove at autoshow in motion 3 years ago or any of the cadillacs I drove at cadillac events. My car doesnt do it either. Sorry, but this issue seems to be nonextistent on modern GM models. furthermore this issue doesnt seem to come up in reviews of GM products, even negative reviews. Do you really think all GM cars have groaning brakes from the factory?
Seems like we haven't been discussing why GM is on the offensive for some time now and there's plenty of discussions here to address M&R questions like brake squealing or creaks. So we're going to take a breather in here.
Hooooo!!! :surprise: Now, that's a question to tackle, so here goes:
It's obvious that the days are over in terms of having a brand for EVERY taste and pocketbook that encompass 9 different divisions (including the former Oldsmobile), as many car companies have invaded those spaces, much in the way cable TV channels have invaded space occupied by ABC, NBC, and CBS. But, if the Big 3 networks can survive intact, then so can the Big 3 car companies; they just have to be aggressive and innovate, much like the networks.
For GM, I see:
Chevy as the blue collar, all American division. Stick to it's roots.
Pontiac as the performance division from their smallest car to biggest, it's all about performance. If you want an SUV or minivan, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!! (BTW, this doesn't preclude Chevy from it's SS lineup, just think of SS as Straight(line) Speed, whereas Pontiac is GM's answer to BMW, w/ a smaller pricetag.
I hate to say it, but if a division HAS to go, why not GMC, especially with a number of dealers becoming GM Automalls, encompassing both divisions. If not, just a rich man's Chevy truck at the BPG dealers.
Buick can be entry level luxury, with available all wheel drive on all models (or, to entice people, AWD STANDARD). And try to do it while costing thousands less than Acura, Lexus, & Infinity.
Cadillac MUST go for Mercedes'& Co.'s jugular. Hell BUILD THE SIXTEEN!!! At $150,000 ea., you'll be lucky to sell 750-1000 a year, so who cares about fuel economy. The owners sure won't.
Hummer: Keep doing what you're doing.
All this must be accomplished w/ the "American" car in mind, styled in the legacy of their great history.
For import lovers:
Saturn can be an American Opel. Sure. That would be a nice story; entry level Euro styling "Made In America".
Saab is the higher end Euro styled cars that begin where Saturn left off.
I wonder if you could pair the dealerships up as follows:
Chevy and Cadillac-both ends of the spectrum, so no conflict. Buick, Pontiac, GMC (Hummer, if you drop GMC) Everything you can imagine from $20-$45K.
Saturn and SAAB: Everything for the import lover.
If you keep GMC, then Hummer can be sold at select dealers. Let's face it, it's such a niche crowd, if they keep the styling fresh they'll sell.
Comments
So did you see a breakdown of the 4K off that was being offered on the 4 Runner like for example did the ad say or list: Factory Rebate: $2,000, Dealer Discount: $2,000.
Offerings Are Bright Spot Amid U.S. Sales Decline;
Dealers Can't Get Enough
By NEAL E. BOUDETTE
September 4, 2007
General Motors Corp. is struggling to halt declining U.S. sales, but it has a bright spot in the three large crossover vehicles it launched in the past year.
The Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook each have three rows of seats and look like big sport-utility vehicles, but they are lighter, have a smoother ride and get better gas mileage than SUVs. Made from many of the same parts, all three are selling briskly and have a GM plant in Lansing, Mich., running at full capacity, a key to profitable auto production.
More importantly, the trio is doing something few other Detroit vehicles can achieve these days -- they are pulling drivers from import brands.
Luring drivers of foreign brands back to domestic vehicles is a critical task for all three Detroit auto makers as they scramble to turn around their North American operations and stem their decades-long slide in market share. Fresh evidence of their troubles is due today in August vehicle-sales reports, which are expected to show continuing weakness for both foreign and domestic manufacturers.
Brian MacDonald is one driver attracted by GM's new crossovers. An investment-fund manager in California, Mr. MacDonald has driven nothing but BMWs and Mercedes-Benzes for the past 20 years. But last month, with the lease on his Mercedes ML-Class winding down, Mr. MacDonald leased a $45,000 Enclave, the most luxurious of GM's three models.
"If someone had told me a few months ago I'd be driving a Buick, my reaction would have been 'no way, no how,' " says Mr. MacDonald, 46 years old. The Enclave, he said, offers the roominess to haul around his three young children and the styling and interior comforts he was accustomed to with the Mercedes. Because the Mercedes ML sells for about $30,000 more than the Enclave, his monthly payment on the Buick was almost $300 lower.
GM, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC remain the dominant manufacturers of trucks, but sales of pickups and SUVs have been falling amid high gasoline prices and changing consumer tastes. With more and more consumers moving to passenger cars and crossovers, the Big Three have to step up their competitiveness in these segments or their turnaround efforts could be squeezed for cash.
But it is an uphill battle. About two-thirds of the vehicles GM sells through its dealerships go to customers who trade in GM vehicles, according to data from the Power Information Network, a division of J.D. Power & Associates. Only a fraction -- less than 3% -- go to people trading in vehicles made by Toyota Motor Corp. or Honda Motor Co.
The three new crossovers do much better. Half of all Acadias and Outlooks go to customers who trade in GM vehicles; about 20% go to people trading Asian-brand vehicles. For the Enclave, the numbers are slightly lower but still better: 44% of all trade-ins are non-GM brands; 14% of the trade-ins are Asian vehicles.
GM doesn't disclose profit margins of its vehicles, but other measures indicate the three crossovers are performing well financially. The company just added a third shift at the Michigan plant producing the vehicles, at a time when GM is trimming production of its full-size SUVs and pickup trucks.
Dealers say they can't get enough Acadias and Enclaves. "We're selling them as soon as they come off the truck," said Dan Marquardt, owner of Barrington Buick-Pontiac-GMC in Barrington, Ill.
At the end of July, GM had enough cars and trucks in inventory to last 70 days. But it had only a 22-day supply of Enclaves, a 32-day supply of Acadias and a 51-day supply of Outlooks.
Such tight supplies cut the need for sales incentives. "We're getting full price," Mr. Marquardt said.
It will be a challenge for GM to keep the three crossovers in this position. A Chevrolet version is in the works, and could skim buyers from the Buick, GMC and Saturn models. The Chevy model will be built in a different plant in Spring Hill, Tenn.
Write to Neal E. Boudette at neal.boudette@wsj.com
Right on. When the Edmunds review of the 2008 sedan mentions the expansion joint kerthuds and the tire noise due to minimal sound-proofing, they point out the flaws in the earlier model. But you'd never have known it had flaws to read about it earlier; they were the holy grail.
"Our ears also measured a slight reduction in tire hum and bump-thuds (a term we just coined) over the previous Accord. More sound-deadening material was part of the solution. But so were myriad changes to stiffen key parts of the body, including the floor panel, front wheel housings and upper suspension mounts."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
L
L
Once supply is normalized, it is going to be hard to sell them at MSRP. In the past couple of months, even before the 2008 model came out, the 2007 Outlooks already had a $1000 factory rebate because too many dealers started to discount Acadias. It is a far cry from the days of $6000 off MSRP on other GM vehicles, but not as rosy as the GM dealership network would like us to believe.
I think you may have completely lost half of the thread readers with the BMW/Vette/CTS mentions as counterpoints to the Enclave high price. I am too lazy to hit the German building tools right now, but I can guarantee a comparably equipped BMW/Audi/Mercedes SUV will cost 10K more, and will carry much less. That is the beauty of the GM trio, short of the Taurus X and the CX-9, there is nothing on the road that has 3 rows of seating, room for 18+ CuFt. of cargo, and more than 16 mpg.
Wow, I would have to dig into the history here. Just off the top of the head, they had Buick Century for power, then the Olds Rocket 88 which took many wins on NASCAR, you had the age of quality coach works in the earliest of Cadillacs, and innovations like the electric starter, which they placed in cars first, and then there was the marvelous designs of the 60's with the GTO, Camaro Malibu SS, and the El Camino. Let's see the American sports car is the 1953 Corvette, which pretty much history wise is another banner year for GM. And then at one time, the most reliable, and powerful sedans and cool looking coupes were the Olds 442 by GM. Then for Buick there was the Riviera, which was a class act indeed. 1969 was the most popular Camaro of all times. Then there are those Eldorados, both hard top and convertibles. I recall when most limos were a Caddy or Lincoln. Aside of market share and HP, like you mentioned, GM was grace and style, with some interesting innovations along the way. Body by Fisher was some fine body builds indeed. GM was the style trend setter at one time. Now they build SUVs *yawn*.
Anyway, between say 1904 and today, a lot has happened, and without writing a book, it is hard to encapsulate the history so all I can say is research it, and you will see these are the also ran ones. But remember first stabilize patient, then start the repairs as required. Hope this is what is happening. We are in the paramedics stabilization phase at the moment.
L
Fleet sales are due to lack of other ways to sell for top dollar. Why would they not use a Camry for police cars? Well they primarily use the RWD Crown Vic for police use. These are purpose built for the police department use. Can not see how there would be any market for Toyota, or profit in making such a car. I have no idea why they are using Impalas instead of Crown Vics in some areas, other than the snow problems. In this case the RWD works better. The Impala is big and cheap, which is good for the police dept. in the snow belt. Politics wise, it may be pretty hard to convince the taxpayers in parts of the USA to go with a foreign brand of car. You keep mentioning that Impalas are unreliable. Not sure why you believe this to be. You said I apply that the car is bad. I assume you meant to say imply that it is a bad car. And to that I say, oh no I did not say it is a bad car. It is good for a company car, a rental car, or for those in need of a slightly larger car than the mid-sized and like it. Like the car, then fine. It runs, and gas mileage is OK. Never said it was a bad car. For some it is like an old shoe that fits, and they do not want to throw out the sneekers for something modern. Nothing wrong with that. :shades:
OK, the Fusion, Sonata, are new and are going to fleet -- true -- this means they are not selling well. The Sebring is simply ugly on the outside and cheap looking on the inside ( IMHO, your mileage may vary ). Of course someone, somewhere USA thinks it looks cool and wonderful -- more power to them, they should be able to get a good discount. When you are desperate to move product, just dump it to fleet. Fusion and Milan with the 3.5 V6, if they got it or will get, should sell better. Nice looking cars, with a slightly big butt, but don't tell
Loren
2008 Cadillac CTS: New Benchmark Luxury Sedan
You keep saying I hate GM. Does it make it so if you keep saying these things long enough?
I am thinking, if they stabilize GM, and work down debt and future obligations can be handled without breaking the bank, GM can once again place money into engineering and research, as well as, directly into every car built. In that respect, it is all about the future.
L
It mentioned blipping the throttle into turns, while down shifting. Anyone know how you do this with an automatic transmission? Never heard of such a thing. But then again, never had a tiptronic or shiftronic tranny.
Wonder what it will look like? I kinda like the weird Art & Science, with an edgy look. Like the Accord, I see it got bigger. My word, why is this still plauging the auto world after all these years. Super size every damned thing. Recall the first Thunderbirds?
learned to drive in a '61 LeSabre,
Loren
I can see that, but my word, an SUV is transportation, may as well get a Hyundai or Kia large barge at a fraction the price. Great warranty, less price.
L
just a thought, L
I actually think you're way too bright and DO get it. You're just being coy as usual. :P
Since you claim not to get it, I'll spell it out in detail. It's quite logical, actually.
Most people own cars 5-6 years. So their impressions are based upon vehicles that are not one year old, but 5-6 years old. I usually remember my last 2-3 cars, so that covers 5-15 years. In this business the buying cycles for most people are many years apart. Furthermore, given the $$ of a car purchase, people take it very seriously. If my DVD player breaks I go to Circuit City and spend another <$100. I don't care so much about the brand, because it's not worth fixing and it is not a lot of money.
As far as the GM truck being designed in the early '90's, you're making my point for me. If it's still on the market in the 2000's and it is 8+ year old design, then of course people will compare the "old design" since they might have bought it in 2000, even if it was designed in the early '90's. It's just old, noncompetitive product. If GM refreshed the product more often in this example, then we wouldn't be comparing to old stuff.
Your point about the latest GM products being much more competitive may be true, but the market is going to take quite a bit of time to adjust its perception of GM. It took decades to ruin the reputation and it's not going to come back overnight. Shows the cost of poor quality - it's a big job to earn that trust back.
The reason why vehicle sales haven't totally hit a brick wall is because people are just financing them longer than ever before. What are we up to now 96 month term ?????
Sure we have a bunch of Arm Chair CEO's posting in these forums that are on their next million but the facts and statistics show otherwise for most folks that aren't better off now than they were before. :sick:
As far as GM, goes they have a couple of home runs with the 08' CTS, Enclave, Acadia, Outlook. I think the 08'
Saab 9-3, will be a strong seller finally just like I think the new Malibu, will sell well. I still think GM, would of been wise offering a manual option on both the 3.6 and 2.4 engines for the Malibu. May be their is hope for the SS, but I doubt it since I see the GXP G6 will be automatic only !!!!! :mad:
-Rocky
As for trucks, our family had one, from Uncle Henry.That was way back back when, it was an 1950 truck. Talk about a real truck, that was some steel, with a harsh ride to remind you, you are in a real ranch truck. In the modern GM trucks, the last refresh looks a bit better to me than the previous model.
Now as far as steel, I haven't a clue. My wild guess is something like the 1970's (late) or maybe into the (early) 80's are still heavy steel. Only thing I recall is people saying the tail gate works on a GM and the Ford was not as good. But what do I know. No truck expert. That old truck though was kinda fun to ride in -- in the back that is.
L
I don't know what you are talking about, please enlighten us. What is the press claiming is exclusive to Honda? Do tell. References please, otherwise we'll have to assume this is more excited arguing.
Honda is just another competitor and not the dominant engineering force that people make them oout to be
Well, Honda was the first car to come up with stratified charge engines in the '70's that didn't need catalytic converters. And Honda had ultra smooth v6 engines well over 200hp way before GM. Let's not forget that Honda has put out variable displacement engines on the Odyssey and I don't recall hearing about any mechanical problems (unlike the V8-6-4 from GM). Honda was one of the first companies with simple, mass produced variable valve timing in their VTEC setup. Let's not forget that Honda sold the first hybrid car in the US, the Insight. Honda also uses active sound cancellation to make the Odyssey and the new Accord quieter. All this while maintaining superior reliability to most other makes. I'd say that's a lot closer to a dominant engineering force than any other mainstream brand. Tell me about other dominant engineering from some of the US nameplates and we can compare who is leading in engineering.
L
Now I got my 244HP and love it. Will I even drive an i4 again, very much a possibility, as a sports car or coupe. Maybe as a Miata again, if I don't see myself in an inline six Bimmer called the Z3, or a old OHV monster called the Corvette.
I think there is room for those wanting to come down from a larger V8 SUV into a car, and the Aura V6 makes sense. The 3.6 mated to the six speed is even fun, with decent gas mileage. This should have been the focus of Saturn with the Aura. They should have made the 3.6 for say $22K, then up two levels for add-ons. And NO base 3.5V6 or the i4, be it hybrid or not. That hybrid MPG ain't that hot.
L
Since I look at cars as more than a 2 or 3 year proposition, why should I make the leap of faith that a new GM is going to age so well when the last one I was in didn't? The Pathfinder ran beautifuly and it was 4 years older.
Retrain for what? Who's going to pay for this retraining - the guy/gal who just lost their job? Sorry kids! You gotta get something out of the dumpster for dinner while Daddy blows his unemployment check learning HVAC or computer networking with the 5,000 other guys who just lost their jobs at the mill. My Dad went to school when he lost his job and graduated at the top of the class. Other guys in the class who graduated below him got jobs, but not Dad. Why? Who's going to hire a 60 year-old man regardless of his qualifications?
Fortunately for Dad, all us kids were grown and gone and his house was long since paid for. Tomorrow's 60 year-old guys won't be as fortunate in such a situation. Housing prices are so absurd, most homeowners won't be paying off their mortgages, if ever, until their in their 70s or 80s.
They do that all the time! C&D is famous for that as well. They have no complaints about a car like the Accord until the new model comes out. Once that happens they suddenly are able to recall all the flaws of the old model.
I totally disagree. Magneride, VVT on OHV engines, AFM (only Honda and Chrysler offer this), Onstar, steering wheel controls (mid 90s), two mode hybrids, stability control, Autoride suspension on the trucks, CVRSS on the last gen STS/DTS/ETC, remote start, Performance Shift algorithm on Cadillacs, the LS3 engine, LS7 engine, Atlas I-6 engine, the superhcarged Northstar engine, the 2L turbo engine, ventilated seats, active steering compensation, the DI 3.6 engine in the CTS, XM radio, etc. are all examples of innovations that GM was the first to have or amongst the first to offer.
Once again, you are not up to date on what GM is doing or has done in the last 10 years or so. If you exclude the luxury manufacturers I would like to know who in your opinion has been introducing more features than GM in the last decade? Please dont say Honda.
the enclave isnt nice? Wow, sounds like you really are a GM fan afterall. What was I thinking?
my parents' car is 9.5 years old and doenst have parts falling off, no major creaks and rattles, the engine works fine and doesnt hesistate, etc. Its always dangerous to base opinions on used vehicles, you have no idea how that vehicle was maintained. furthermore the Blazer was last redesigned in 1995 as I stated, its hardly a modern GM product regardless of what you say.
do you honestly believe current GM products wont last more than 3 years without problems? LOL, that is a good one.
"The Pathfinder ran beautifuly and it was 4 years older. "
ran beautifully? what does that even mean? the engine worked? I would hope it does.
Overall I would have to say the Altima is the current benchmark based on hp, features, size and innovation. I am counting the entire model lineup including the hybrid. The camry could also be considered but its high tech features are solely available on the XLE and hybrid model. Its also way overpriced and lacks handling on all model other than SE.
No. If you don't know what it means for a car to run beautifully, then you're not really in a position to offer commentary on cars.
You've shown time and again, that you set the bar much lower than I do. That's why you defend GM so fervently, because as long as it runs, it's good.
A 10 year old car that runs beautifully starts easily, idles smoothly, accelerates without hesitation, shifts crisply, takes bumps with groans and creeks and drives straight without constant corrections or too much play in the steering. These are the things that the 10 year old Pathfinder did that the 5 year old Blazer didn't.
gsemike says:
> If you don't know what it means for a car to run beautifully, then you're not really in a position to offer commentary on cars.
My qualification is that I've owned 9 GMs and had excellent service from each, so don't impeach my qualifications to be allowed to post here. My bar is set high, higher than the minimialization products I test drove from foreign brands in 87, 89, 93, 98, 03.
On top of that my 98 and 03 have NO creaks and groans. They both drive straight and don't have play in the steering. Talk about a low expectation level--if creaks and groans are okay. In that case I should have bought the hard seats and creaks and rattles in the 03 Accord I test drove!!!
gsemike says:
>A 10 year old car that runs beautifully starts easily, idles smoothly, accelerates without hesitation, shifts crisply, takes bumps with groans and creeks...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
While the factories for Silverado and Sierra production are cutting back production and laying off excess personnel. Robbing Peter to pay Paul?
How do you keep the brakes from groaning when you let off the pedal? I've never been in a GM anything that didn't make that awful noise.
Again, are you trying to say that there's something wrong with all GM cars and their brakes? I can take you in my 03 and there's no groan, and there never has been. I can take you in my 98 and there's no groan. Maybe a REpairs and Problems discussion topic can help you isolate the cause there.
The news story this morning was that GM is selling those car as fast as they can make them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have sat in a Pontiac Vibe 2002 and in a 07 Outlook. No funny sounds coming from the brakes. Granted, the Vibe is a joint-venture with Toyota, but not the Outlook.
Not wrong, since the brakes work, just disconcerting. I've heard it in Cadillacs, Chevrolets, and everything in between. Something about the way GM designed their brake systems produced a noise that sounds like a zombie moan when the brake pedal is released from a full stop. I've never heard anything like it from other makes.
Race Starter at Bell Isle in Detroit last Sunday at IRL Indy race said: "Ladies and Gentlemen, start your 'Honda' Engines".
GM not active in Indy 500 type racing but is present in NHRA. A Chevy Cobalt (with rear wheel drive) won Pro Stock Class at NHRA Nationals on Labor Day. Guess that will translate into extra Cobalt sales this week at Chevy dealers across US. These Pro Stock cars go 200 MPH in quarter mile. Chevy must build good engines for Cobalt.
How is that relevant to the "GM Is on the Offensive" topic?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Uh, no.
The testers never said that the previous-generation model was flawed in this regard. They merely noted that the new model is improved in this regard. Note that they said that their ears measured a "slight reduction in tire hum and bump-thuds." A "slight reduction" hardly sounds earth-shaking.
Just because Honda improved the Accord's ride for the new generation model does not mean that this was a fault of the previous generation.
Funny you'd mention that Bumpy, because I've noticed it, too. Mainly when I partially release the brake, such as inching up in a traffic jam. Seems like it's most noticeable in pickup trucks. I remember Granddad's '76 GMC crew cab making that noise, and my '85 Silverado does it too. My '76 LeMans does it a little bit. Can't remember if my '67 Catalina does it or not...I'll have to listen for it next time.
Do GM cars still make that noise? I guess I just got so used to it, especially since my '85 pickup is my main transportation now, that I just associate it with being "normal".
2007: A GM Odyssey
I can't fault GM for this. This is market forces at work. People that want the crossover are going to buy one over a Silverado or Sierra whether it's produced by GM or someone else. Credit GM for meeting the demand for the crossover.
Of course Buicks last long. Any car that spends its time puttering around the suburbs and never exceeds 65 mph on the interstate SHOULD be rattle- and groan-free.
Some of us have higher standards, because we expect more from our cars.
Saab 9-3, will be a strong seller finally just like I think the new Malibu, will sell well.
You don't like the G8 or Lacross super?
actually I disagree. I have been posting on Edmunds/carspace for about 9 years- even before I owned a car. Secondly I have attended numerous manufacturer/magazine events and have driven everything from a Malibu to an LS400. I think I am well qualified to comment on cars and I suspect I have driven more vehicles than you have.
I have no need to "lower the bar" because GM is making competitive vehicles. If you drive a current model you may agree. If you drive 6 year old beat up used SUVs you may not agree.
"A 10 year old car that runs beautifully starts easily, idles smoothly, accelerates without hesitation, shifts crisply, takes bumps with groans and creeks and drives straight without constant corrections or too much play in the steering."
The '98 Intrigue does all of that. Its been maintained and it works fine. My parents' old Chevy idled smoothly when it was 12 years old. My '92 Suburu? not quite, the revs would often jump at idle or the car would mysteriously idle 500rmp higher for no reason when you started the car only to lower after a minute.
Never noticed the noise on ANY of the GM vehicles I drove at autoshow in motion 3 years ago or any of the cadillacs I drove at cadillac events. My car doesnt do it either. Sorry, but this issue seems to be nonextistent on modern GM models. furthermore this issue doesnt seem to come up in reviews of GM products, even negative reviews. Do you really think all GM cars have groaning brakes from the factory?
It's obvious that the days are over in terms of having a brand for EVERY taste and pocketbook that encompass 9 different divisions (including the former Oldsmobile), as many car companies have invaded those spaces, much in the way cable TV channels have invaded space occupied by ABC, NBC, and CBS. But, if the Big 3 networks can survive intact, then so can the Big 3 car companies; they just have to be aggressive and innovate, much like the networks.
For GM, I see:
Chevy as the blue collar, all American division. Stick to it's roots.
Pontiac as the performance division from their smallest car to biggest, it's all about performance. If you want an SUV or minivan, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!! (BTW, this doesn't preclude Chevy from it's SS lineup, just think of SS as Straight(line) Speed, whereas Pontiac is GM's answer to BMW, w/ a smaller pricetag.
I hate to say it, but if a division HAS to go, why not GMC, especially with a number of dealers becoming GM Automalls, encompassing both divisions. If not, just a rich man's Chevy truck at the BPG dealers.
Buick can be entry level luxury, with available all wheel drive on all models (or, to entice people, AWD STANDARD). And try to do it while costing thousands less than Acura, Lexus, & Infinity.
Cadillac MUST go for Mercedes'& Co.'s jugular. Hell BUILD THE SIXTEEN!!! At $150,000 ea., you'll be lucky to sell 750-1000 a year, so who cares about fuel economy. The owners sure won't.
Hummer: Keep doing what you're doing.
All this must be accomplished w/ the "American" car in mind, styled in the legacy of their great history.
For import lovers:
Saturn can be an American Opel. Sure. That would be a nice story; entry level Euro styling "Made In America".
Saab is the higher end Euro styled cars that begin where Saturn left off.
I wonder if you could pair the dealerships up as follows:
Chevy and Cadillac-both ends of the spectrum, so no conflict.
Buick, Pontiac, GMC (Hummer, if you drop GMC) Everything you can imagine from $20-$45K.
Saturn and SAAB: Everything for the import lover.
If you keep GMC, then Hummer can be sold at select dealers. Let's face it, it's such a niche crowd, if they keep the styling fresh they'll sell.
Well, I guess that's $2, not 2c worth.