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Comments

  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "I still remember buying a Mercury Sable for 6K off MSRP (18K) on the same month a friend paid MSRP on his Honda Civic (14K). Five years later, I sold the Sable for 5K and he sold his Civic for 6K. I lost 13K vs. his 8K. I thought the Sable was a much better car anyway, but it had at least 5 unscheduled visits to the dealer during the time, mostly related to Ford infamous brake components."

    So you bought a Mercury Sable V-6 for 18K well I think the resale value of a Sable should be compared to an Accord V-6 that was sold new at that time due to the fact that the Sable was competing with Honda's Accord V-6 and not Honda's Civic at that particular time. To go further into it the Sable as you mentioned before offered more incentives than the Accord V-6 at that time(no doubt) so the Sable isn't as bad of a deal as your making it out to be but the Sable was not a better car than the Accord V-6 at that time. BTW, the brake problems had to be a pain though I don;t doubt though because of all the unscheduled visits to the dealer for that particular problem.

    As for your friend buying a Civic for MSRP what was this when the redesigned 2001 Civic first came out in late 2000 that he bought this Civic. I can;t imagine buying a Civic for MSRP. I have to imagine he bought a Civic DX.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "You want to know how Hyundai is selling Sonatas? 27.6% to fleet sales, and the rest discounted up to $4K off sticker, that is how."

    The 2006 Sonata is not a bad effort but the styling looks like everything else in that it is not very distinctive. Hyundai is trying to make their cars look like Honda's and toyota's and that a big mistake in my opnion remember when Mazda and Nissan tried to be bland like Toyota in the mid or late 90's? Those 2 companies almost went under because if it.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Why is GM letting the Trailblazer die after the 2010 model year? Why didn;t they just redesign the Trailblazer for the 2008 or 2009 model year I mean wasn't it a good seller when it first came out. I mean I don;t think the Trailblazer has a tarnished reputation or anything so why isn;t GM letting the Trailblazer name live on? What GM model will compete with the likes of the Jeep Cherookee, Toyota 4 Runner, and the Ford Explorer once the Trailblazer dies after the 2010 model year?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    What GM model will compete with the likes of the Jeep Cherookee, Toyota 4 Runner, and the Ford Explorer once the Trailblazer dies after the 2010 model year?

    I guess it's possible that GM just doesn't see much of a future for this segment of the SUV market to continue in it? It wouldn't be the first time GM bailed out on a declining market, such as when they left the Ponycar market by dropping the Camaro, and the traditional full-sized car market by dropping the Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood.

    I've heard rumors that Ford has been thinking of dropping the Explorer. Once upon a time, the Explorer was good for 400,000 units or more, but I don't think it even does half that anymore. The Trailblazer would usually be #2 in this segment, but I think it topped out around 250-300K units. Of course, it had the Envoy and other clones too, though.

    A quick look at SUV sales shows just how much the market has segmented these days, and also how the mid- and full-sized BOF SUVs aren't nearly as dominant as they once were. Interestingly, the full-sized Tahoe outsold the midsized Trailblazer, through the month of June.

    It looks like Ford may have a winner with the Edge. It's been out less than a year, but YTD through June, has sold about 3/4 of Explorer volume. I guess the closest thing GM has to the Edge would be the Equinox? YTD through June, it's moved about 2/3 of Trailblazer volume.
  • nastacionastacio Member Posts: 370
    So you bought a Mercury Sable V-6 for 18K well I think the resale value of a Sable should be compared to an Accord V-6

    It was more of a Ford vs. Honda comparison. Accords retain resale value about the same as the Civic but I didn't have numbers for purchase and sales happening at the same time. My friend bought the VP model. It was 99.

    Shoot me for saying this but I thought the interior of the Sable in 99 was better than the one in the Accord. An Accord V6 was going for 24K at the time.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    " Ok GM is styling some great products right now I'll give you that too you 1487 but stating like GM styles better cars than everybody else is not fact its based on your own opinion."

    Please show where I claimed GM is doing better styling than everyone else. GM is styling vehicles better than Toyota, I will stand by that claim.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "So you bought a Mercury Sable V-6 for 18K well I think the resale value of a Sable should be compared to an Accord V-6 that was sold new at that time due to the fact that the Sable was competing with Honda's Accord V-6 and not Honda's Civic at that particular time."

    the prices of the vehicles are irrelevant to his point, he was comparing resale values of two different brands. A civic has higher resale value than the Sable or any other mercury on paper. That was his point.
  • ehaaseehaase Member Posts: 328
    What GM model will compete with the likes of the Jeep Cherookee, Toyota 4 Runner, and the Ford Explorer once the Trailblazer dies after the 2010 model year?

    Ford is moving the Explorer to the D3 (Taurus, Taurus X, Sable) platform for the 2011 model year. It will become a crossover.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    IF everyone shopped based on resale value and positive ownership experiences Honda and Toyota would probably be the only two brands left.

    I can't argue with this very sensible statement. Good job!
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    Why wouldn't you consider resale value and positive ownership experiences? I consider negative ownership experiences as well.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Oh dear, crossdressers are everywhere ! :surprise:
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    What goes on in someone's mind is still a mystery for science as to why people buy some things.

    Was there a hint here, in what you said, that would indicate a logical choice then is to only buy a Honda or Toyota? 1487 has seen the light :shades: he is now a convert to the Japan camp. I just knew he was a double agent. :D

    Actually just buy what ya like and be happy. If unhappy, sell what ya got and hope for better luck next time. So many car, so little time to dissect them all. Well, in my case I do have the time and take the time to look into most details before buying. A car with good resale, and a positive experience sounds like a winner to me. Thanks! :shades: L
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    "Actually just buy what ya like and be happy" Amen but if you want to put yourself in the best position to have above average reliability, don't buy GM just yet.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    ""Actually just buy what ya like and be happy" Amen but if you want to put yourself in the best position to have above average reliability, don't buy GM just yet."

    First of all a lot of people lease cars so all of your unfounded concerns about poor GM reliability dont apply to those people. Secondly, GM has a 5 year powertrain warranty that should ease any logical person's concern/ Thirdly, extended warranties are available from dealers at reasonable prices. After the experience with his 2005 Mazda 3 my brother bought one on his 2007. The main reason he got the 2007 was due to his lack of confidence in the 2003. I know that sounds impossible since the car was made and designed in Japan but its the truth. I dont need to lie because the truth speaks for itself.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    BTW,

    Can you tell me which brands "guarantee" a reliable ownership experience? Please dont mention Toyota, Nissan, MAzda, etc. I'm guessing all we are left with is Honda. And I dont mean brands that merely have above average reliability- I mean PERFECT reliability since you have stated numerous times that anything less is unacceptable to you.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "So standard side air bags and stability control is standard on the Accord LX V6 in 2006 and on the SE V6 in 2007. How is that not being there ahead of GM in standard equipment? "

    Some Olds Intrigue models had stability standard in 2000 or so. The Grand Prix GTP has it standard in 2003. The G6 GTP had it standard in 2005. The new Accord is the FIRST one with standard disc brakes and ABS. The Alero, Grand Am, Intrigue/Grand Prix/Regal had that standard in 1997-1998. All of GM's G platform cars have offered stability since 1999. Cadillac had stability in the US before anyone except MB way back in 1996 or so.

    You tell me how Honda is ahead in safety features.

    "Too much effort to explain the obvious"

    Couldnt have said it any better myself. Glad to know we are on the same page.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "You want to know how Hyundai is selling Sonatas? 27.6% to fleet sales, and the rest discounted up to $4K off sticker, that is how"

    Camry discounts are nearly as large even though the camry is newer and has a better rep. I priced out an SE V6 recently and the MSRP was over $33k but the TMV was under $30k. Care to explain?

    Import fanatics have long said the fact that domestic vehicles (and Hyundai) need fleet sales and discounts to move metal is a sign that the vehicles have little appeal. Now Toyota is offering nice dicounts on most of its big sellers. Funny how that works.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Was there a hint here, in what you said, that would indicate a logical choice then is to only buy a Honda or Toyota? 1487 has seen the light he is now a convert to the Japan camp. I just knew he was a double agent"

    Let me clarify here. My point was that anyone who argues that people only buy cars based on perceived reliability and resale value is off base. How could VW, Mitsu, Hyundai and domestic brands exist in 2007 if people didnt care about styling, interior design, power, price, warranty, etc? By and large Toyota and Honda lead in the things that are related to reputation as opposed to actual performance or engineering. Toyota's hybrids are one exception, that is one case where Toyota actually does something that others dont. They generally dont lead in design, handling, innovative features, price, warranty or anything else tangible. According the the arguments being made by most of you Hyundai shouldnt even exist today. I can tell there are no Hyundai fans here but they are proof that lower prices, good build quality (which is universal) and a good warranty sells vehicles.

    The stuff that Toyota and Honda are good at is being done by everyone these days. There was a time when smooth four cylinders, good mileage, tight build quality, quiet rides (Toyota only) were harder to find and those two brands exceeded the average. Not any more.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    "First of all a lot of people lease cars so all of your unfounded concerns about poor GM reliability dont apply to those people."

    I don't follow you. How come have a leased car be unreliable is not a problem?

    "Secondly, GM has a 5 year powertrain warranty that should ease any logical person's concern"

    Sure if you enjoy making warranty claims. GMC didn't want to stand behind an Acadia with an oil leak at 3,000 miles. I'd rather just have a reliable car and never deal with warranty claims and service managers that will do anything to get out of honoring a warranty.

    "extended warranties are available from dealers at reasonable prices."

    If you want to pay extra for that, more power to you. If you continue to buy GM it's probably a good investment as long as you can get someone to honor it.

    "I know that sounds impossible since the car was made and designed in Japan but its the truth"

    That's probably the Ford DNA creeping in. Mazda's have never been known to have stellar reliabiltiy.

    Take all the time you want and find me where I said that anyone guarantees perfect reliability. If better reliability that Dodge or Ford is good enough for you, buy GM. What I've said is that if you want to put yourself in the best position for excellent reliability, buy one of the big 3 from Japan. The stats back that up as does the empirical evidence here and my own first hand experiences.
  • nastacionastacio Member Posts: 370
    Can you tell me which brands "guarantee" a reliable ownership experience? Please dont mention Toyota, Nissan, MAzda, etc. I'm guessing all we are left with is Honda.

    I can say that Honda is not it. With less than 15000 miles on the odo, my 2005 Accord Coupe has a cricket-like sound coming from the center console, an unscheduled visit to repair a malfunctioning trunk release level, and some intermittent signs of rough idle after 'spirited' driving. As anecdotal evidence, a friend of mine had a 2001 Honda Civic that needed service in its first 3 weeks because the trunk kept popping open over road bumps.

    Other than the powertrain engineering, which it is fantastic (V6 + MT,) quality is not perfect, although people tell me that the Hondas manufactured in Japan fare much better. Fantastic dealership experience, from purchase to service.

    We also have a Nissan Murano 2004, and *that* has been perfect in terms of quality for fit and finish. Not a rattle, squeaky sound or failed component in all these years. Two safety recalls and horrible dealership experience though.
  • nastacionastacio Member Posts: 370
    I forgot to mention. I think GM will crawl out of its hole if it keeps its recent design trend, with Pontiacs devoid of plastic cladding, competitive OHC V6 engines, and significantly improved interior design.

    I "almost" bought a Saturn Outlook, which is a lot to say for someone who would not even drive by a Saturn dealer. In the end, my wife liked the CX-9 design better, but I somehow I am bracing for some serious disappointment in the quality department as Mazda stepped up too quickly from small pedestrian cars not know for top-notch quality to sub-luxury 4000+lbs SUVs.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    I've been recently shopping for a used SUV. Anyone want to venture what felt better, the 97 Pathfinder or 02 Blazer?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've said is that if you want to put yourself in the best position for excellent reliability, buy one of the big 3 from Japan.

    If you are NOT interested in any of the domestic name brands why do you show so much interest in the GM threads? My personal experience is just opposite of yours. Of the 2 Toyotas, 2 Nissans ( Datsun) and one Honda there was only one 1970 Datsun PU truck that was worth a hoot. The rest were nothing but troubles. Some covered by warranty. Some out of my pocket. Five GM vehicles since 1988 nearly trouble free. No out of pocket repairs needed.

    I think I need to head over and bash the new crappy Camry and Tundra. Been a few days.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Having rented several Trailblazers in Hawaii, I say no contest. Pathfinder is outclassed by a mile.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    "If you are NOT interested in any of the domestic name brands why do you show so much interest"

    1 - I love cars and appreciate a lively conversation

    2 - I never said that I wasn't interested in domestic brands. I was raised on GM and want to see them be great again. They've improved, but they've got a ways to go. Whenever I buy, I go out of my way to cross shop and have given them more than a fair shot to win my business. I test drove a used Blazer yesterday. It was horrible.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Obviously the Camry priced at $33k was overpriced. It will sell when the realist price is achieved. You do realize, with discounting you can get into a RWD, like the Cadillac CTS or Chrysler 300C or a nice 300. Heck, that is starting price on a Bimmer. Why would you get a Camry for that price. Could it be that Toyota really has become another GM, as in price high then discount? Oh well, I don't see it as anything eartshaking, though for owners on the new Camry, it effects resale stability. Honda handles that best it seems.

    You mentioned discounts and fleet sales as if they were one in the same. Not sure why. Are you implying that the Impala and Camry are on the same level of customer demand? The Malibu and Camry? Nope fleet sales in high numbers is a signal that cars is out, or to be redone soon. Sonata took an early dive. It is a decent car, but so many are these days, you can simply get lost on the way.
    just trying to be helpful,
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Maybe it is one of those, you just have to look. You know like a horrible train wreck about to happen, you still seem to want to look.

    just a thought, L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Offering something as an option, is not standard equipment. Usually the car was at an inflated price too, then discounted to sell. Then you must consider the total package. Was it a modern car at the time, or did they throw on some extras to make it look like a deal. Side air bags on a car with a crank to start the motor up front, ain't gonna make it. :D Anyone find it odd that GM and fans take so much time explaining why stuff is not needed, the customer is wrong for asking? Another good one is that they simply are misinformed or don't know how to appreciate what they have to offer. I would think it yields some obvious problems over time. Those have come home to roost. Only the SUV is saving the day and that is a maybe. Actually, don't be too certain that trucks are not slipping.

    For Japan and other countries to be leading the way in engineering and products is so sad. To put one's head in the sand and hope it all goes away is even sadder. Let's hope some new stuff comes out in the next couple of years. Currently it is treading water. An American Evolution perhaps, a Revolution not yet.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Sorry, but it was the other way around. The product was better engineered and performance was better, which lead to the rest. Then comes the reliability and sales due to quality of experience. Dittos for resale value. Ya gotta know these things to succeed. Hyundai has done a good job of upgrading the quality. As for engineering they are trying to replicate others, then sell for less. Seems to be some really NEW Hyundai cars coming, with RWD. Luxo and sports cars. They may be actually breaking some new ground. Toyota/GM, are ya watching?

    Anyway, perception you say? How about people with a memory longer than just yesterday or a year ago, buy cars based on past experiences. Tell you again, it was not like people left GM so much, as GM left the people along to highway to the future. You lead, follow or get out of the way.
    just trying to save a once great car company, L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    In that case, it is perfectly logical, that person and a some friends, may not to buy the Honda product. It is all in the numbers. GM over time had too many, oh my God what's wrong now moments, and people became leery to buy them. So far, taken in whole, considering the resale values, repeat customers, and such, it appears more people than not, like the experience of their Honda over time. Time will tell if things have changed. And most certainly, if your Nissan is giving you a better experience, you will be back at that dealership again. Nissan hit quite a few bumps in the road, and I was leery of their reliability. Still a bit concerned, but they make some cool looking cars. The Murano is one of them. The Altima looks cool. I decided that I was not a fan of CVT, and did not like the placement of the emergency brake and the overall feel while driving, so I opted out of that model.
    Looks is good, but it is not everything to me when buying. Just going by looks, you could get a cool, overpriced Solstice, which looks very sleek, even with the too tall doors and the bathtub driving position - woo-hoo!
    L
  • bmarkbmark Member Posts: 52
    It depends on what year Blazer you drove. The mid 90's though 2000 was crap. But the new Model 2001- current is a pretty good truck. I have the Envoy Denali 2005, and I love it for the price nothing compared. Bought it with 2 miles have 49,000 and no problems with it so far.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Loren - I travel quite a bit on business, and am always renting cars at airports, or elsewhere. Hertz is my favorite agency, simply because I'm a Gold Club member, and get to pick and choose my rental car, plus quick service. In all of my travels this year, the most prevalent rental car has been the Camry, generally a 4-cylinder SE w/o sunroof. It's my choice to be sure, but it's also the one that's most numerous - more so than the ubiquitous Taurus (the old one or the new one) or Sonata. The ONLY exception to this was at MCO (Orlando) - the Sonatas outnumbered the Camrys. On the other hand, I've never seen a rental Accord. In the long term, this can't help Toyota's resale value for the Camry.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Import fanatics have long said the fact that domestic vehicles (and Hyundai) need fleet sales and discounts to move metal is a sign that the vehicles have little appeal. Now Toyota is offering nice dicounts on most of its big sellers. Funny how that works.

    Have you compared figure wise($$$) how much Toyota spends on incetives when compared to the Domestics: Toyota has less incentive spending than the domestic Big 3. I'm not saying that the Domestic Big 3 suck I;m just stating fact that Toyota spends less on incetive spending than the Domestic Big 3 do.

    As far as Hyundai goes I don;t know what their incentive spending is when compared to the Domestics or Toyota.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "By and large Toyota and Honda lead in the things that are related to reputation as opposed to actual performance or engineering."

    Why do you have a beef with Honda for? the 2007 Accord is still one of the class leaders in its segement and its 5 years old. The new Civic has been held in very high regard. The 2004 TL is also a very good vehicle the only thing it gets dissed for is that doesn't have a RWD set-up. Honda has good engineering I think.

    I can understand if you have a beef with Toyota ok but Honda no.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Toyota has spent a bundle on incentives to keep that ugly new Tundra selling. Way more than Ford or GM.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "I know that sounds impossible since the car was made and designed in Japan but its the truth"

    "That's probably the Ford DNA creeping in. Mazda's have never been known to have stellar reliabiltiy."

    Why does everybody diss Mazda for being associated with Ford its gets so old after awhile. Mazda reliability is ok but not as good as Honda or Toyota. Its not like Mazda's reliability is as bad as VW's.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Toyota has spent a bundle on incentives to keep that ugly new Tundra selling. Way more than Ford or GM."

    I know but the Tundra is only one vehicle not the whole entire Toyota line-up.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "I know but the Tundra is only one vehicle not the whole entire Toyota line-up"

    Every Toyota has incentives, in my area thats all they advertise at Toyota dealerships. The SUVs and Sienna are offering at least $4k off MSRP. Its not just GM folks.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "I never said that I wasn't interested in domestic brands. I was raised on GM and want to see them be great again. They've improved, but they've got a ways to go. Whenever I buy, I go out of my way to cross shop and have given them more than a fair shot to win my business. I test drove a used Blazer yesterday. It was horrible."

    why in the world would you base your opinions of GM on a 6 year old truck that was actually designed in the early 90s? I dont get it.

    You want to see GM "great" again? That is the surprise statement of the year. When was Gm ever great in anything but marketshare and hp? GM is making better vehicles than EVER.

    Read Karl's blog on the new CTS. Its self explanatory.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "You mentioned discounts and fleet sales as if they were one in the same. Not sure why. Are you implying that the Impala and Camry are on the same level of customer demand? The Malibu and Camry? Nope fleet sales in high numbers is a signal that cars is out, or to be redone soon. "

    As it has been explained many, many, many times before all fleet salesa re not bad. goverment and corporate fleet sales are OK, rental sales are not good. The Impala is like America's default car for a lot of applications. It doesnt mean its a bad car as you continue to apply. If the camry is more reliable, has better resale and is an all around better car and it made in the USA why doesnt it replace the Impala as a fleet car? Also, if GM vehicles are so unreliable how to Impala police cars manage to rack up hundreds of thousands of miles and stay on the road?

    YOu say fleet sales are a sign that car is about to be redone soon but the Fusion and Sonata have substantial fleet sales and are relatively new. I'm sure same applies to Sebring and Avenger. ALso, camry fleet sales are probably higher than ever before and the car is only 1.5 years old. Care to explain?

    Just trying to be helpful.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Every Toyota has incentives, in my area thats all they advertise at Toyota dealerships. The SUVs and Sienna are offering at least $4k off MSRP. Its not just GM folks."

    The Sienna is a declining segement I mean mini-van sales are way down right?

    I really don;t notice Toyota advertising heavy incentives in NJ. I mean Toyota;s are really really popular here. Maybe in NE where you live in Toyota's aren;t as popular as they are in NJ I don;t know.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "The 2004 TL is also a very good vehicle the only thing it gets dissed for is that doesn't have a RWD set-up. Honda has good engineering I think.

    I can understand if you have a beef with Toyota ok but Honda no."

    I dont have a beef with Honda at all although I doubt I will ever own one. I have a beef with people putting Honda on a pedastal. Everything that the press tells you is exclusive to Honda is being done by the competition. There are TONS of good cars on the road and Honda is just one company making some of those cars. You can talk about engines, trannies, technology, etc. and on all fronts Honda is just another competitor and not the dominant engineering force that people make them oout to be,

    Calling the Accord a benchmark after 5 years is something the press is fond of doing but the facts dont bear that out. The car is very nice and will serve the average family well but its not benchmark. not in features, mileage, styling or pricing. In fact its one of the more expensive cars in the class even though it offers less than the competition.

    I like the TL just fine and its a good value.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "I really don;t notice Toyota advertising heavy incentives in NJ. I mean Toyota;s are really really popular here. Maybe in NE where you live in Toyota's aren;t as popular as they are in NJ I don;t know."

    I live in PA right next to Jersey. If you have access, check out the auto section in the Inquirer one day. I have a hard time believing you have to pay close to MSRP in Jersey. They are selling Toyota SUVS for $6k off MSRP per the ads. Toyota is just another car company when it comes to selling the deal as opposed to the car.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "YOu say fleet sales are a sign that car is about to be redone soon but the Fusion and Sonata."

    Fusion is about 22% of its sales that go to fleets and as Loren mentioned before The Sonata is at 27.6% of its total sales that go to fleets.

    "I'm sure same applies to Sebring and Avenger."

    Uh the Sebring and Avenger account for 64% and 80% of its total sales respectively.

    "ALso, camry fleet sales are probably higher than ever before and the car is only 1.5 years old."

    No, so far this year dating to the May 2007 sales month I think fleets only accounted for 7.7% of its total sales and last gen Camry 12% to 15% of its total sales were to fleets I think.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Offering something as an option, is not standard equipment. Usually the car was at an inflated price too, then discounted to sell. Then you must consider the total package. Was it a modern car at the time, or did they throw on some extras to make it look like a deal. Side air bags on a car with a crank to start the motor up front, ain't gonna make it"

    what does this have to do with what I said? I stated that GM had stability standard on a number of non luxur models as far back as 2000. I dont get your response. The intrigue had stability, DOHC motor, IRS, and good handling back in 2000. How is that equal to offering crank start or whatever you said?

    "For Japan and other countries to be leading the way in engineering and products is so sad."

    anyone who knows a lot about the industry and who came up with what first would not make such a statement. Anyone who doesnt, well you know. Care to come up with some examples of Japanese car innovation outside of VTEC and hybrids? I would love to hear some examples.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "I live in PA right next to Jersey. If you have access, check out the auto section in the Inquirer one day. I have a hard time believing you have to pay close to MSRP in Jersey."

    No, 1487 I wasn;t saying you have to pay MSRP for Toyota I;m talking about Factory rebates that Toyota gives out. BTW, paying MSRP for any car is ridiculous in my opinion. I'll take a look more at the car ads this weekend though. I usually get the Star Ledger(newspaper.)
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "You lead, follow or get out of the way. "

    Considering GM's recent design trends, upgaded powertrains, better warranty and commitment to hybrids I would say they are leading or at least preparing to. You continut to talk about GM of the 80s and if this were 1987 you're knowledge would be very handy but alas we are in 2007 and the "old" GM is slowly dying.

    Tell you again, the facts dont line up with the "GM had never changed" rhetoric you promote so enthusiastically. Read Karl Brauer's blog here on the new CTS and then tell me how GM is "following" as you attest. Keep in mind Karl is hardly a GM fan who has been rooting for the home team. When I first encountered him on Edmunds several years back I would say he hated GM about as much as you and gsemike. Before responding to this I suggest you read his commentary on the car.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "No, 1487 I wasn;t saying you have to pay MSRP for Toyota I;m talking about Factory rebates that Toyota gives out. BTW, paying MSRP for any car is ridiculous in my opinion. I'll take a look more at the car ads this weekend though. I usually get the Star Ledger(newspaper.)"

    factory rebates are usually only hald the discounts offered. Sure the average Toyota may only have $1500 in factory rebates but the dealers may tack on another $2k+ depending on model. All the ads I see say "$4000 of 2007 4Runners!" and what not.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Have you compared figure wise($$$) how much Toyota spends on incetives when compared to the Domestics: Toyota has less incentive spending than the domestic Big 3. I'm not saying that the Domestic Big 3 suck I;m just stating fact that Toyota spends less on incetive spending than the Domestic Big 3 do. "

    average incentive numbers mean nothing without knowing average MSRPs of vehicles sold. Toyota sells far fewer trucks/SUVs than GM and thus their average MSRP of vehicles sold is likely thousands less. Big trucks with $40k+ price tags often come with big incentives and that drives up the average for GM and the other Big 2. Toyota gets the lion's share of its sales from Camrys (mostly 4s), corollas. Highlanders and Prius'.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Calling the Accord a benchmark after 5 years is something the press is fond of doing but the facts dont bear that out. The car is very nice and will serve the average family well but its not benchmark. not in features, mileage, styling or pricing. In fact its one of the more expensive cars in the class even though it offers less than the competition."

    So what's the benchmark in the mid-size class 1487? The Altima, The Aura or some other car in your opinion.

    I agree even as a Honda fan the 08 accord and the 03-07 model as well has some weak styling thats probably why I never buy one. It just doesn't appeal to me its like a girl that you have everything in common with and she has a real nice personality but your just not physically attracted to her.

    As far as gas mileadge goes the Accord gets good gas mileadge. I agree it is one of the highest priced vehicles in its class.
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