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So you bought a Mercury Sable V-6 for 18K well I think the resale value of a Sable should be compared to an Accord V-6 that was sold new at that time due to the fact that the Sable was competing with Honda's Accord V-6 and not Honda's Civic at that particular time. To go further into it the Sable as you mentioned before offered more incentives than the Accord V-6 at that time(no doubt) so the Sable isn't as bad of a deal as your making it out to be but the Sable was not a better car than the Accord V-6 at that time. BTW, the brake problems had to be a pain though I don;t doubt though because of all the unscheduled visits to the dealer for that particular problem.
As for your friend buying a Civic for MSRP what was this when the redesigned 2001 Civic first came out in late 2000 that he bought this Civic. I can;t imagine buying a Civic for MSRP. I have to imagine he bought a Civic DX.
The 2006 Sonata is not a bad effort but the styling looks like everything else in that it is not very distinctive. Hyundai is trying to make their cars look like Honda's and toyota's and that a big mistake in my opnion remember when Mazda and Nissan tried to be bland like Toyota in the mid or late 90's? Those 2 companies almost went under because if it.
I guess it's possible that GM just doesn't see much of a future for this segment of the SUV market to continue in it? It wouldn't be the first time GM bailed out on a declining market, such as when they left the Ponycar market by dropping the Camaro, and the traditional full-sized car market by dropping the Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood.
I've heard rumors that Ford has been thinking of dropping the Explorer. Once upon a time, the Explorer was good for 400,000 units or more, but I don't think it even does half that anymore. The Trailblazer would usually be #2 in this segment, but I think it topped out around 250-300K units. Of course, it had the Envoy and other clones too, though.
A quick look at SUV sales shows just how much the market has segmented these days, and also how the mid- and full-sized BOF SUVs aren't nearly as dominant as they once were. Interestingly, the full-sized Tahoe outsold the midsized Trailblazer, through the month of June.
It looks like Ford may have a winner with the Edge. It's been out less than a year, but YTD through June, has sold about 3/4 of Explorer volume. I guess the closest thing GM has to the Edge would be the Equinox? YTD through June, it's moved about 2/3 of Trailblazer volume.
It was more of a Ford vs. Honda comparison. Accords retain resale value about the same as the Civic but I didn't have numbers for purchase and sales happening at the same time. My friend bought the VP model. It was 99.
Shoot me for saying this but I thought the interior of the Sable in 99 was better than the one in the Accord. An Accord V6 was going for 24K at the time.
Please show where I claimed GM is doing better styling than everyone else. GM is styling vehicles better than Toyota, I will stand by that claim.
the prices of the vehicles are irrelevant to his point, he was comparing resale values of two different brands. A civic has higher resale value than the Sable or any other mercury on paper. That was his point.
Ford is moving the Explorer to the D3 (Taurus, Taurus X, Sable) platform for the 2011 model year. It will become a crossover.
I can't argue with this very sensible statement. Good job!
L
Was there a hint here, in what you said, that would indicate a logical choice then is to only buy a Honda or Toyota? 1487 has seen the light :shades: he is now a convert to the Japan camp. I just knew he was a double agent.
Actually just buy what ya like and be happy. If unhappy, sell what ya got and hope for better luck next time. So many car, so little time to dissect them all. Well, in my case I do have the time and take the time to look into most details before buying. A car with good resale, and a positive experience sounds like a winner to me. Thanks! :shades: L
First of all a lot of people lease cars so all of your unfounded concerns about poor GM reliability dont apply to those people. Secondly, GM has a 5 year powertrain warranty that should ease any logical person's concern/ Thirdly, extended warranties are available from dealers at reasonable prices. After the experience with his 2005 Mazda 3 my brother bought one on his 2007. The main reason he got the 2007 was due to his lack of confidence in the 2003. I know that sounds impossible since the car was made and designed in Japan but its the truth. I dont need to lie because the truth speaks for itself.
Can you tell me which brands "guarantee" a reliable ownership experience? Please dont mention Toyota, Nissan, MAzda, etc. I'm guessing all we are left with is Honda. And I dont mean brands that merely have above average reliability- I mean PERFECT reliability since you have stated numerous times that anything less is unacceptable to you.
Some Olds Intrigue models had stability standard in 2000 or so. The Grand Prix GTP has it standard in 2003. The G6 GTP had it standard in 2005. The new Accord is the FIRST one with standard disc brakes and ABS. The Alero, Grand Am, Intrigue/Grand Prix/Regal had that standard in 1997-1998. All of GM's G platform cars have offered stability since 1999. Cadillac had stability in the US before anyone except MB way back in 1996 or so.
You tell me how Honda is ahead in safety features.
"Too much effort to explain the obvious"
Couldnt have said it any better myself. Glad to know we are on the same page.
Camry discounts are nearly as large even though the camry is newer and has a better rep. I priced out an SE V6 recently and the MSRP was over $33k but the TMV was under $30k. Care to explain?
Import fanatics have long said the fact that domestic vehicles (and Hyundai) need fleet sales and discounts to move metal is a sign that the vehicles have little appeal. Now Toyota is offering nice dicounts on most of its big sellers. Funny how that works.
Let me clarify here. My point was that anyone who argues that people only buy cars based on perceived reliability and resale value is off base. How could VW, Mitsu, Hyundai and domestic brands exist in 2007 if people didnt care about styling, interior design, power, price, warranty, etc? By and large Toyota and Honda lead in the things that are related to reputation as opposed to actual performance or engineering. Toyota's hybrids are one exception, that is one case where Toyota actually does something that others dont. They generally dont lead in design, handling, innovative features, price, warranty or anything else tangible. According the the arguments being made by most of you Hyundai shouldnt even exist today. I can tell there are no Hyundai fans here but they are proof that lower prices, good build quality (which is universal) and a good warranty sells vehicles.
The stuff that Toyota and Honda are good at is being done by everyone these days. There was a time when smooth four cylinders, good mileage, tight build quality, quiet rides (Toyota only) were harder to find and those two brands exceeded the average. Not any more.
I don't follow you. How come have a leased car be unreliable is not a problem?
"Secondly, GM has a 5 year powertrain warranty that should ease any logical person's concern"
Sure if you enjoy making warranty claims. GMC didn't want to stand behind an Acadia with an oil leak at 3,000 miles. I'd rather just have a reliable car and never deal with warranty claims and service managers that will do anything to get out of honoring a warranty.
"extended warranties are available from dealers at reasonable prices."
If you want to pay extra for that, more power to you. If you continue to buy GM it's probably a good investment as long as you can get someone to honor it.
"I know that sounds impossible since the car was made and designed in Japan but its the truth"
That's probably the Ford DNA creeping in. Mazda's have never been known to have stellar reliabiltiy.
Take all the time you want and find me where I said that anyone guarantees perfect reliability. If better reliability that Dodge or Ford is good enough for you, buy GM. What I've said is that if you want to put yourself in the best position for excellent reliability, buy one of the big 3 from Japan. The stats back that up as does the empirical evidence here and my own first hand experiences.
I can say that Honda is not it. With less than 15000 miles on the odo, my 2005 Accord Coupe has a cricket-like sound coming from the center console, an unscheduled visit to repair a malfunctioning trunk release level, and some intermittent signs of rough idle after 'spirited' driving. As anecdotal evidence, a friend of mine had a 2001 Honda Civic that needed service in its first 3 weeks because the trunk kept popping open over road bumps.
Other than the powertrain engineering, which it is fantastic (V6 + MT,) quality is not perfect, although people tell me that the Hondas manufactured in Japan fare much better. Fantastic dealership experience, from purchase to service.
We also have a Nissan Murano 2004, and *that* has been perfect in terms of quality for fit and finish. Not a rattle, squeaky sound or failed component in all these years. Two safety recalls and horrible dealership experience though.
I "almost" bought a Saturn Outlook, which is a lot to say for someone who would not even drive by a Saturn dealer. In the end, my wife liked the CX-9 design better, but I somehow I am bracing for some serious disappointment in the quality department as Mazda stepped up too quickly from small pedestrian cars not know for top-notch quality to sub-luxury 4000+lbs SUVs.
If you are NOT interested in any of the domestic name brands why do you show so much interest in the GM threads? My personal experience is just opposite of yours. Of the 2 Toyotas, 2 Nissans ( Datsun) and one Honda there was only one 1970 Datsun PU truck that was worth a hoot. The rest were nothing but troubles. Some covered by warranty. Some out of my pocket. Five GM vehicles since 1988 nearly trouble free. No out of pocket repairs needed.
I think I need to head over and bash the new crappy Camry and Tundra. Been a few days.
1 - I love cars and appreciate a lively conversation
2 - I never said that I wasn't interested in domestic brands. I was raised on GM and want to see them be great again. They've improved, but they've got a ways to go. Whenever I buy, I go out of my way to cross shop and have given them more than a fair shot to win my business. I test drove a used Blazer yesterday. It was horrible.
You mentioned discounts and fleet sales as if they were one in the same. Not sure why. Are you implying that the Impala and Camry are on the same level of customer demand? The Malibu and Camry? Nope fleet sales in high numbers is a signal that cars is out, or to be redone soon. Sonata took an early dive. It is a decent car, but so many are these days, you can simply get lost on the way.
just trying to be helpful,
Loren
just a thought, L
For Japan and other countries to be leading the way in engineering and products is so sad. To put one's head in the sand and hope it all goes away is even sadder. Let's hope some new stuff comes out in the next couple of years. Currently it is treading water. An American Evolution perhaps, a Revolution not yet.
Loren
Anyway, perception you say? How about people with a memory longer than just yesterday or a year ago, buy cars based on past experiences. Tell you again, it was not like people left GM so much, as GM left the people along to highway to the future. You lead, follow or get out of the way.
just trying to save a once great car company, L
Looks is good, but it is not everything to me when buying. Just going by looks, you could get a cool, overpriced Solstice, which looks very sleek, even with the too tall doors and the bathtub driving position - woo-hoo!
L
Have you compared figure wise($$$) how much Toyota spends on incetives when compared to the Domestics: Toyota has less incentive spending than the domestic Big 3. I'm not saying that the Domestic Big 3 suck I;m just stating fact that Toyota spends less on incetive spending than the Domestic Big 3 do.
As far as Hyundai goes I don;t know what their incentive spending is when compared to the Domestics or Toyota.
Why do you have a beef with Honda for? the 2007 Accord is still one of the class leaders in its segement and its 5 years old. The new Civic has been held in very high regard. The 2004 TL is also a very good vehicle the only thing it gets dissed for is that doesn't have a RWD set-up. Honda has good engineering I think.
I can understand if you have a beef with Toyota ok but Honda no.
"That's probably the Ford DNA creeping in. Mazda's have never been known to have stellar reliabiltiy."
Why does everybody diss Mazda for being associated with Ford its gets so old after awhile. Mazda reliability is ok but not as good as Honda or Toyota. Its not like Mazda's reliability is as bad as VW's.
I know but the Tundra is only one vehicle not the whole entire Toyota line-up.
Every Toyota has incentives, in my area thats all they advertise at Toyota dealerships. The SUVs and Sienna are offering at least $4k off MSRP. Its not just GM folks.
why in the world would you base your opinions of GM on a 6 year old truck that was actually designed in the early 90s? I dont get it.
You want to see GM "great" again? That is the surprise statement of the year. When was Gm ever great in anything but marketshare and hp? GM is making better vehicles than EVER.
Read Karl's blog on the new CTS. Its self explanatory.
As it has been explained many, many, many times before all fleet salesa re not bad. goverment and corporate fleet sales are OK, rental sales are not good. The Impala is like America's default car for a lot of applications. It doesnt mean its a bad car as you continue to apply. If the camry is more reliable, has better resale and is an all around better car and it made in the USA why doesnt it replace the Impala as a fleet car? Also, if GM vehicles are so unreliable how to Impala police cars manage to rack up hundreds of thousands of miles and stay on the road?
YOu say fleet sales are a sign that car is about to be redone soon but the Fusion and Sonata have substantial fleet sales and are relatively new. I'm sure same applies to Sebring and Avenger. ALso, camry fleet sales are probably higher than ever before and the car is only 1.5 years old. Care to explain?
Just trying to be helpful.
The Sienna is a declining segement I mean mini-van sales are way down right?
I really don;t notice Toyota advertising heavy incentives in NJ. I mean Toyota;s are really really popular here. Maybe in NE where you live in Toyota's aren;t as popular as they are in NJ I don;t know.
I can understand if you have a beef with Toyota ok but Honda no."
I dont have a beef with Honda at all although I doubt I will ever own one. I have a beef with people putting Honda on a pedastal. Everything that the press tells you is exclusive to Honda is being done by the competition. There are TONS of good cars on the road and Honda is just one company making some of those cars. You can talk about engines, trannies, technology, etc. and on all fronts Honda is just another competitor and not the dominant engineering force that people make them oout to be,
Calling the Accord a benchmark after 5 years is something the press is fond of doing but the facts dont bear that out. The car is very nice and will serve the average family well but its not benchmark. not in features, mileage, styling or pricing. In fact its one of the more expensive cars in the class even though it offers less than the competition.
I like the TL just fine and its a good value.
I live in PA right next to Jersey. If you have access, check out the auto section in the Inquirer one day. I have a hard time believing you have to pay close to MSRP in Jersey. They are selling Toyota SUVS for $6k off MSRP per the ads. Toyota is just another car company when it comes to selling the deal as opposed to the car.
Fusion is about 22% of its sales that go to fleets and as Loren mentioned before The Sonata is at 27.6% of its total sales that go to fleets.
"I'm sure same applies to Sebring and Avenger."
Uh the Sebring and Avenger account for 64% and 80% of its total sales respectively.
"ALso, camry fleet sales are probably higher than ever before and the car is only 1.5 years old."
No, so far this year dating to the May 2007 sales month I think fleets only accounted for 7.7% of its total sales and last gen Camry 12% to 15% of its total sales were to fleets I think.
what does this have to do with what I said? I stated that GM had stability standard on a number of non luxur models as far back as 2000. I dont get your response. The intrigue had stability, DOHC motor, IRS, and good handling back in 2000. How is that equal to offering crank start or whatever you said?
"For Japan and other countries to be leading the way in engineering and products is so sad."
anyone who knows a lot about the industry and who came up with what first would not make such a statement. Anyone who doesnt, well you know. Care to come up with some examples of Japanese car innovation outside of VTEC and hybrids? I would love to hear some examples.
No, 1487 I wasn;t saying you have to pay MSRP for Toyota I;m talking about Factory rebates that Toyota gives out. BTW, paying MSRP for any car is ridiculous in my opinion. I'll take a look more at the car ads this weekend though. I usually get the Star Ledger(newspaper.)
Considering GM's recent design trends, upgaded powertrains, better warranty and commitment to hybrids I would say they are leading or at least preparing to. You continut to talk about GM of the 80s and if this were 1987 you're knowledge would be very handy but alas we are in 2007 and the "old" GM is slowly dying.
Tell you again, the facts dont line up with the "GM had never changed" rhetoric you promote so enthusiastically. Read Karl Brauer's blog here on the new CTS and then tell me how GM is "following" as you attest. Keep in mind Karl is hardly a GM fan who has been rooting for the home team. When I first encountered him on Edmunds several years back I would say he hated GM about as much as you and gsemike. Before responding to this I suggest you read his commentary on the car.
factory rebates are usually only hald the discounts offered. Sure the average Toyota may only have $1500 in factory rebates but the dealers may tack on another $2k+ depending on model. All the ads I see say "$4000 of 2007 4Runners!" and what not.
average incentive numbers mean nothing without knowing average MSRPs of vehicles sold. Toyota sells far fewer trucks/SUVs than GM and thus their average MSRP of vehicles sold is likely thousands less. Big trucks with $40k+ price tags often come with big incentives and that drives up the average for GM and the other Big 2. Toyota gets the lion's share of its sales from Camrys (mostly 4s), corollas. Highlanders and Prius'.
So what's the benchmark in the mid-size class 1487? The Altima, The Aura or some other car in your opinion.
I agree even as a Honda fan the 08 accord and the 03-07 model as well has some weak styling thats probably why I never buy one. It just doesn't appeal to me its like a girl that you have everything in common with and she has a real nice personality but your just not physically attracted to her.
As far as gas mileadge goes the Accord gets good gas mileadge. I agree it is one of the highest priced vehicles in its class.