General Motors discussions

nedzel

"GM lies lies and lies when it comes to diesel cars. They are scared to death of diesel cars and what Europe is doing with them."

Hockeypucks. GM sells plenty of diesels in Europe, in their Opel, Vauxhall, and Saab lines.

rockylee

http://www.trollhattansaab.net/

-Rocky

sls002

Even the six way is not standard. But an 8 way (with power seat back and lumbar) is optional. On the six way the seat back is manual.

62vetteefp

What is the General's thing for 6 way power seats? My brother has a 39,000 Acadia and that has a 6 way power seat! You can get 8 way in plenty of 20,000 dollar cars. That just seems behind the times.

The Toyota Highlander, which I consider a direct competitor to the Acadia, has manual seats also. I will say though that Toyota did not give any available options on the base vehicle. It was under $30K and I could not get it any higher. To get the 8 ways you had to buy the next model up which was still under $35k. Do not know why GM still has the 6 ways in this new vehicle except to cut some price to make it more affordable. There will always be some feature/option that is a deal killer and for Andre it is the 6 wAY while for his brother it was not. For me once you set the back cushion I never touch it again. Waste of weight and money for me but it does give you the impression of a higher cost auto with it.

volvomax

As the article states, these aren't line workers.
These are unskilled laborers.

I don't think soemone driving a forklift should be paid $28/hr. Sorry.
If you want a high paying job, stay in school. Go to College, get a quality education.

62vetteefp

As the article states, these aren't line workers.
These are unskilled laborers.

I don't think soemone driving a forklift should be paid $28/hr. Sorry.
If you want a high paying job, stay in school. Go to College, get a quality education

Very true and GM is reducing the wages of these workers. However it is still a relatively high paying job at the import plants (+$25/hour w/ beni's). Now that GM has reduced to $14 there will be pressure to reduce at the southern plants.

cooterbfd

I don't think soemone driving a forklift should be paid $28/hr. Sorry.

That is, until they drop a pallet full of goods on your head .

Seriously, we can debate until we're blue in the face whether they deserve $8,18, or $88/hr, but you HAVE to find a salary that will keep the employee (REASONABLY) happy.

rockylee

Well we could say the same thing about some car salesman who make in the middle 5 figures to low six figures. wink wink

-Rocky

rockylee

It amazes me how many americans want another american to regress. I think that's why weare falling apart in this country because instead of everybody sticking togeather for a common cause we are at each other's throats. :sick:

-Rocky

rockylee

exactly.

-Rocky

cooterbfd

instead of everybody sticking togeather for a common cause we are at each other's throats.

Amen!!!! I can't believe the number of people who say "We don't get that benefit, why should you?"

imidazol97

>middle 5 figures to low six figures.

That's a great point. There's no reason for a salesman to make more than $20-40K. They can be replaced with any worker out of high school. They don't manufacture anything. Actually Walmart should get into the car sales business.

rockylee

I can't believe the number of people who say "We don't get that benefit, why should you?"

Instead of figuring out a way to gain that benefit from their employer they would rather run you into the ground. :sick:

-Rocky

rockylee

They can get illegal aliens to do sales and then maybe that Fork Lift Driver at GM, who is required by law to obtain a license could then make his $28 per hr. and reduce the price of GM, cars as well

-Rocky

gsemike

Plenty of salesmen do make 20 to 40k. The good ones make high 5 figures to low 6 figures. They're pulling that much based on their contributions to the bottom line.

fezo

Me, I never argue with a guy driving a fork lift. At least until he's off of the fork lift.

imidazol97

But they shouldn't. They don't make anything. They are just delivering a piece of goods produced by someone else. Just as union labor has people suggesting they lower the value of their worth, the paperwork for sale of a vehicle could be done by, well, a Walmart employee.

jkr2106

I think it depends on whether the salesperson is commissioned or not. When someone works on comission, they earn their keep; a salaried salesperson may not. I know I know a heck of a lot about cars, and I've helped negotiate several car purchases, but that doesn't make me a good salesman. Salesmen need a certain charisma/people skills that everyone doesn't have and is not taught in college. For that reason, I find it okay for them to make six figures, because if they don't sell a certain quota, they're fired (or not paid). Can you say the same thing about the UAW? When the cars don't sell/or when they don't work (jobs bank) are they still paid?

Listen. I'm totally for unions: my Mom's a teacher and I get the whole collective bargining thing. My issues are:

1. GM is dying; the welfare of the company should come before that of employees that may will lose their job if GM were to go under.

2. America, being a capitalist nation, should have companies paying the going rate of labor. Otherwise, the entire premise of our economy (to make money) is violated. When there are people willing to work for less, then wages should fall. It is the same in almost every industry, and it should be the same here.

gsemike

There's a difference between the 40k schlub and the 100k closer. Don't act like a qualfied effective sales guy doesn't contribute to the bottom line. Just like real estate, furniture and any other big ticket item, good salesmen earn their keep. They wouldn't pay them that much commission for nothing.

imidazol97

So you're saying that it's okay for people to say a UAW worker shouldn't be paid $$ per hour for a certain job. You're saying it's not okay for someone to assess what pay rate a car salesman job should pay?

>the entire premise of our economy (to make money) is violated.

That was violated when LBJ pushed for the Milk for Children program so that "poor" kids whose parents aren't working properly in the capitalist society can still reap the rewards of same capitalist society. Now services to those who are capable but don't/won't work and work the system instead takes a majority of tax money.

I pay a lot of taxes now as do most of us to subsidize programs for people who do not follow the capitalist model and work for a living. I'll end this and leave it for the Politics discussion so as to stay on topic.

A car salesman doesn't produce anything. Their job could be done by a kiosk and a supervisor in China checking that the right buttons were pushed to select a car and options. The idea of price haggling and the dealership adding as much fluff and stuff and chrome and glome and all the scare warranties and the threat warranties (if you don't buy it we won't properly care about servicing this car for you) is actually outmoded now.

But a UAW worker and lots of others produce a product for our GNP. What does a salesman, or a teacher for that matter, produce? Shouldn't they be paid whatever the China pay scale suggests we have to pay here?

I.e., I think it's not logical that we pound on certain workers while others are given a pass. It's all back to the image and the media concept of the workers that I mentioned in an earlier post.

Most people don't know a UAW worker so it's someone they can denigrate.

jkr2106

So you're saying that it's okay for people to say a UAW worker shouldn't be paid $$ per hour for a certain job. You're saying it's not okay for someone to assess what pay rate a car salesman job should pay?
I'm saying a UAW worker shouldn't be paid $$ for a certain job to the detrement of the company. Salespeople OTOH are usually commisioned and their pay relates directly to their performance. If GM did something like track cars that were touched by a particular worker over time to see if there were defects and wanted to reward workers whose cars had none, I'd be fine with that.

That was violated when LBJ pushed for the Milk for Children program so that "poor" kids whose parents aren't working properly in the capitalist society can still reap the rewards of same capitalist society.
I hate any pay programs where people are rewarded for not doing anything. (You can read into that what you want)

A car salesman doesn't produce anything.
They produce a sell if they are any good. A lot of people go into a dealership undecided and walk out with a car. Someone in China can't put the pressure on you like a good salesman can. As such, the labor market rewards those capable of making the sale and penalizes those who aren't.

But a UAW worker and lots of others produce a product for our GNP. What does a salesman, or a teacher for that matter, produce? Shouldn't they be paid whatever the China pay scale suggests we have to pay here?
Guess what, the UAW worker had to learn to read. I am quite offended that you'd belittle the importance of education in our society. If the USofA didn't have a public education system, we would not have enjoyed the economic growth that puts us all in such a great position today.

I.e., I think it's not logical that we pound on certain workers while others are given a pass. It's all back to the image and the media concept of the workers that I mentioned in an earlier post.
If you are refering to my support of the collective bargining of teachers, I think we have to look at who contributes most to society.

Most people don't know a UAW worker so it's someone they can denigrate.
No, I don't know a UAW worker, but my statements are not in denegration. I'm only saying that right now, GM needs more cost competitive labor contracts, and the UAW had to yield or they wouldn't have jobs in a few years. AND, what's wrong with recognizing that many UAW workers could be replaced for much less. I'd never suggest that it is something anyone could walk in off the street and do, no it is skilled work. It's just that the skill required could be learned by many; GOOD salespeople and GOOD teachers all have inate gifts that are not learned. If you have people willing to do that job for less, GM should be free to hire them. With teachers, NOBODY would do that job for less.

EDIT: This is getting much too political/ideological/personal and I don't want to get this thread shut down, so I'll stick to GM.

chuckhoy

If your child to be educated by somebody making a Chineese-level wage, you are beyond what I can say in a forum like this. Ever heard of the saying "you get what you pay for"? I hope your future doctor is getting paid like he was living in China.

dieselone

If it wasn't for the salesmen on dealer floor moving product, the factory worker wouldn't have a job. I've worked several sales jobs in several different industries. In my experience the sales people were the highest paid people in the company (outside of the owner of course).

I've worked in a manufacturing atmosphere and it's far less stressful than sales. Far less lucrative too. It's a beautiful thing when you see your efforts directly converted to lots of cash.

dieselone

Ever heard of the saying "you get what you pay for"?

Absolutely. I don't have a problem paying more for better quality and service. At the same time, you can over pay too. Like $28/hr for a fork lift operator. Hell, I was certified to drive a forklift while in high school.

sellaturcica

People tend to make what the market will bear. The market used to bear the UAW workers making a killing for doing poor quality work; this is back in the time when the big 3 used to make a killing and could support high, parasitic labor costs. Not anymore... the American automakers famously squandered their lead and to get their market share back to where it was in the 1960s and 1970s would require a seismic shift that is just not going to happen.

Salesman kill what they eat. I have 0 problem with them making whatever they can make. See Alec Baldwin's speech in Glengarry Glen Ross.

jkr2106

And many would say a Teacher's job is a "Part-Time" job thus they are grossly over-paid compared to the UAW worker at General Motor's.

...and they'd be WRONG!!! In my post I emphasized GOOD teachers because the GOOD teachers are the ones that don't treat it like a part-time job. It's pretty easy to predict which teachers' students post the highest increase in test scores because they are the ones that get there the earliest and stay the latest. We are talking 10 hour shifts AT MINIMUM, although my mom works 12 hrs/day. She also consistantly has the highest test scores in her grade. Coincidence? I think not. Also, when she gets home at 7, she is still grading papers, so the overall time commitment is extraordinary. Then there are the summer "breaks". On the whole, many teachers have to take classes during the summer to make more money during the year than the pennies they're tossed. Where are they gonna fit graduate courses in with 10-hour workdays?

Just one more thought and I'll get of my soapbox. Teachers are pretty alone in the labor market when you consider how much of their income is funneled back into their job. Has anyone ever had to buy a robotic arm for GM? Probably not, but people send their kids to school all the time w/o pencils and paper and books to read for independent reading.

I really need to stop now...

62vetteefp

Let's stop and talk about GM.

Notice all the Malibu ads yesterday

Real push on that car. Must sell well for GM to continue their upswing.

sellaturcica

Uh huh. A little back of the envelope math shows just how "overpaid" teachers are: Say they make $50K (which is too high, but whatever), and work 38 forty hour weeks a year. It comes out to $32.90 an hour, or 17.5% more than a $28 an hour forklift operator. I know which of those I consider to be overpaid.

jkr2106

Yea, I thought they were pretty cool. If anyone missed them:

jogging

bank

andre1969

A little back of the envelope math shows just how "overpaid" teachers are: Say they make $50K (which is too high, but whatever), and work 38 forty hour weeks a year.

I have a friend who's a teacher, and he puts in a lot more than 40 hours per week. In addition to what he puts in, in the classroom, he spends a lot of time at home grading papers, putting lesson plans together, etc. So there's more to it than meets the eye.

The one thing we tend to argue on, though, is that he likes to say that he's out of work 3 months per year. The way I always looked at it is that he gets paid a yearly salary to do 9 months of work.

Also, they make you go through an awful lot of training and education to be a teacher, so I guess you could argue that they're underpaid, considering the amount of education they have.

rockylee

Also, they make you go through an awful lot of training and education to be a teacher, so I guess you could argue that they're underpaid, considering the amount of education they have.

I believe teacher's in some districts and states are very under paid. I was merely using the quotes of my ex-MIL to be who is right-winger. She use to tell me how over-paid they were and ONLY had a part-time job. If my memory is correct teachers after they got their tenure would top out at like $40K in her district.

I want to get back to GM, but when I hear people say that GM worker's have this gravy job and are just overpaid dummy's on a assembly line that is incorrect. It takes training and skills to do many of their jobs which many teacher's would not beable to do.

-Rocky

lemko

I don't mind the workers being paid less as long as the cost of everthing else goes down commensurably. If a shirt made by cheap overseas labor costs only pennies to manufacture, it should be sold for fifty cents. I don't want the shirt that once cost $50 when it was made by American labor paid a decent wage to still cost $50 when it is made by sweat shop third-world labor.

62vetteefp

General Motors Corp.'s 74,000 hourly workers will each get $3,000 next Thursday, when the automaker antes up the first of four bonus payments used to help sell the United Auto Workers on the latest labor deal.

Local UAW leaders were notifying members on Wednesday that the checks are coming.

As part of GM's new contract with the UAW, workers get cash payments in each of the agreement's four years. The annual bonuses after this year will be 3 percent, 4 percent and 3 percent of a worker's wage, equating over the life of the contract to $13,056 for a typical employee.

62vetteefp

Of the many indignities General Motors Corp. has endured in its fall from dominance of the U.S. auto market, none is more damaging than the inability to field a first-rate family sedan.

That adversity might just be coming to an end. The new Chevrolet Malibu, which begins arriving at dealers toward the end of this month, is a car GM is praying will be discussed favorably by consumers in the same breath as the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry, the acknowledged benchmarks in the category.
“It's astonishingly good,” said Eric Noble, president of The CarLab in Orange, California, which does engineering analyses of vehicle tear-downs. “And I've been quite open in the past about my negative views of GM vehicles.”

Noble, who has driven the new model, said the interior of his test vehicle was superior to the top-selling cars in the U.S. “When Honda and Toyota see this car they'll have to start putting back some of the content they've been taking out to economize,” he said.

Csaba Csere, editor of Car and Driver magazine, who has bashed GM models in the past, says the new Malibu “drives beautifully.” Csere said Malibu's 2.4-liter, four-cylinder engine is smoother and quieter than the comparable Honda engine: “It's unprecedented. GM has made enormous progress on every front.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=azjbra3FqMZg&refer=muse

62vetteefp

The everyday family sedan is undergoing a transformation from stodgy to stylish as drivers begin to demand more from their basic transportation than a nondescript appliance on wheels.

Some call it the Target effect, after the budget retailer that has successfully applied costly looking design and style to inexpensive commonplace items from soap to sofas. Now, car makers are following suit with their mass-market midsize sedans, which have long sold in high volume despite their decidedly unstylish looks.

In the past two years, cars like Toyota Motor Corp.'s Camry, Nissan Motor Co.'s Altima, General Motors Corp.'s Saturn Aura, Chrysler LLC's Sebring and other basic family haulers with starting prices under $20,000 have begun to resemble more-expensive models, thanks to distinctive shapes and attention to details like wheel design, chrome trim and paint colors.

Two of the latest models, GM's redesigned 2008 Chevrolet Malibu and Honda Motor Co.'s 2008 Accord, are especially dramatic departures from previous versions, which were often criticized for looking like generic rental cars. From some angles the new Accord bears a resemblance to a $44,000 BMW 5-Series. The Malibu's smooth-sided, aerodynamic-looking body and low-cut roof remind one of the Lexus LS 460, which costs more than three times as much.

The degree to which the restyled 2008 sedans stand out in traffic is a point of debate. Critics say the Honda looks like a hodgepodge of elements from other makers, that the Chrysler Sebring is still too conservative, and that the Toyota Camry may be too much of a styling departure for some traditional buyers. Some longtime industry watchers say that the new styling is more hype than substance.

"What I'm seeing are a lot of boring cars that are supposed to be stylish," says David Healy, an analyst with Burnham Securities. He also says that for GM, Ford and Chrysler, spicing up their sedans is aimed more at maintaining market share than at increasing profit. "I think the cars are probably break-even placeholders for the Detroit three," Mr. Healy says, adding that profit margins are "probably quite a bit better" for Honda, Toyota and other imports because of lower production costs.


http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119265621686462498.html

62vetteefp

I am hearing more and more about the styling of the new LaCrosse. Along the lines of the Enclave and "stunning".

lemko

You're not talking about the current car that looks like the 2005 car with a Lucerne/Enclave grille? Is the 2009 going to be an all-new design? Got pics? I was thinking a LaCrosse Super would make a great replacement for my aging Park Avenue. Maybe I should wait a couple years.

62vetteefp

New LaCrosse will be based on EPS II which is the next gen platform from EPS I which the Aura and new Malibu are based on. Biggest platform change is it will be wider.

No pics but many in the media have seen it and swaid they really are impressed.

lemko

Can't wait to see some pics! I've got this thing about wanting a 2005 Buick Park Avenue Ultra. I was thinking about taking a look at this one. What do you think?

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=232264856&dealer_id=1680177&car_yea- r=2005&model=PARK&num_records=25&make2=&start_year=2003&keywordsfyc=&engine=&key- wordsrep=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=used&distance=25&m- arketZipError=false&search_lang=&make=BUICK&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Ai- spsearchform&min_price=&drive=&isDWSI=false&isDWSI=false&isDWSI=false&isDWSI=fal- se&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=- 19111&advanced=&end_year=2008&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=12

imidazol97

Lemko,
You win the longest-link-I've-ever-seen award; seven full lines! I'm sure some long ones are hidden behind clickable links, but this one is great.

And it links to a beautiful, full quality automobile. I keep shopping lightly for a third car. A used Regal, leSAbre, Park Ave, Century, etc. that I know is good for 200+ miles for the kid to bang up. You buy that puppy and put 22 inch rubber bands on it and it will fit right in.

rockylee

A little pricey don't you think ? You could buy a Caddy, for the same money or less.

-Rocky

rockylee

So it's going to get the Velite grill and styling ? Cool !!!! :shades:

-Rocky

imidazol97

But it's quality. Stiffer suspension for the Ultra. Great! I was kidding about the 22's. I love original cars. I do see PAs and LeSabres blinged out around the urban area.
Some are tasteful; most are not.

jae5

Thanks jk. Haven't seen these commercials yet

jae5

62,

What do you think of Mr. Healy's "break-even placeholder" thoughts on Detroit's new styling, particularly GM? And the longtime industry critics?

bumpy

There's no shortage of them out there, and a 4-year-old one in reasonable shape should go for about the price of a base G6.

Also, the VIN starts 1G... I thought the recent Park Avenues were built at Oshawa?

andre1969

Is that '05 Park Ave an Ultra or the base model? Actually, considering the mileage and options, it doesn't seem too bad...$21K for something that probably stickered for at least $40K new. Plus, I'm sure you could get them to come down a bit more. Does that car have a sunroof?

There was an '04 Park Ave for sale at a lot near me, in that dark blue. I think it had ~53K miles on it and they wanted around $18K.

I've been in kind of a Buick-y mood lately too, but the style I REALLY want is one of those '71-76 dreadnaughts. :shades:

lemko

Haven't seen the car in person. I have seen some Ultras w/a power sunroof. It's not too important to me as I never had a car with one nor desired one.

I'm just looking for a replacement for my old '88 and I've done well with Park Aves. I just can't stand to look at my ride with the paint looking the way it does. I could get it painted, but I'm afraid of the car getting hit or having a major component die after I get it done. I guess it's a risk no matter how I look at it.

I think this Park Ave would be new enough to be past the dreaded intake manifold problem. This car isn't one of the supercharged units which I've heard to avoid. I saw a beautiful white 2004 Ultra, but it had the supercharger.

What I like about this car is the low miles and price which seem to be close to Edmunds TMV. It's also a GM Certified unit if that means anything.

jae5

GM 3Q Sales

andre1969

I was under the impression that the supercharged 3.8 was standard on the Ultra? I've heard that the superchargers often start acting up around 100,000 miles and cost around $1000 to fix. So if you get a low-mileage one, you shouldn't have to worry about it for years.

Heck, if you really like it, go in and lowball 'em with $15-16K, see if they counter with something else, and you might come to a middle ground around $18-19K. Keep in mind though, that if it does not have a sunroof, while that's a bonus for you, it's a big black mark for the typical buyer of a car like this. So that should give you more negotiation room.