General Motors discussions

jkr2106

It would be competitive (and I think Lincoln has choosen that route for the upcoming MKS), but I feel as though in this market, there is not room for practicality (see above post^). So, its not that that wouldn't be adequate (for me it would be perfect), but I want Caddys to be opulent with everything you could possible think of. If you can afford a Caddy, you should be able to afford the gas. Maybe Buick will handle that middle class segment. The bulk would probably be V6s though. I just think the CTS needs the option so the media starts comparing it with legit midsize sports sedans like the 5 and E.

sls002

If they were to put more into the CTS, it could be more of a mid-priced luxury car (like the 5-series/E-class), however, the CTS is all new for 2008, and has been priced more in the 3-series range, with an interior that is more 3-series than 5-series. If Cadillac is really thinking of moving it up, they should have done it for the 2008 model year, and dumped the STS. I do not think that they can keep the CTS as is for a few more years, and then move it up.

However, I think Cadillac can move a lower end model under the CTS, and move the CTS up market some, but there are limits. I really can't see the CTS ever getting up to the Mercedes E-class, although I can see the E-class degrading. China could destroy the luxury market.

jkr2106

Although I disagree with the interior being more 3-series, I would agree that Cadillac should have done the moving up for the 2008 model year. They could have trimmed the lineup to the Escalade (+variants), SRX, and CTS and started over from there. The DTS represents Cadillacs of old, the STS is going to get cut anyways, and the XLR is hardly doing anything spectacular sales-wise. They could just gut the lineup like they've done for Buick in order to clearly define what the marque will stand for here on out.

lemonhater

I don’t know I just saw two ads for Buick that finally tells me that someone at GM is getting it they have stopped waving the flag and stopped trying to convince me that they are as good as the imports. The ads for the Lucerne and Enclave gave reason why one should buy one. Gave advantages over Lexus and Volvo. I think there might still be life left in this old grey mare.

Now if only they could do the same for Saturn. Saturn ads still leave much to be desired. They also need to solve the long term problem of what to do with Buick. If Buick competes with Lexus and Volvo then who does Cadillac compete with?? I don’t think GM is going to be able to move Cadillac any more upscale and still sell enough units.

chuckhoy

I think they have already shown what they are doing with Saturn. They are moving the entire division upmarket. They are becoming what Oldsmobile should have become.

After the Ion goes the way of the dinosaur, you will not have a vehicle in the Saturn lineup much under $20k. The Outlook is $30k plus, the Aura starts at about $20k and goes up from there, ditto for the Vue, the Astra can be had for $15k but it would be a stripped down base model. A nicely equipped Astra XR (coupe or sedan) is pushing $20k for a compact.

Gone are the days of a $10k SC or SL base model. Even the old L series topped out in the mid-$20k range. That was as good as it got for them at the time. Saturn is becoming the Euro-style sub-luxury GM brand. The euro-style equivalent of Buick.

jkr2106

You don't like the saturn 'rethink' ads?
link title
I think they are good, but haven't seen them on TV, just youtube and autosites.

I think the idea re: brand positioning is that Buick will compete with Lexus and Volvo on the premise that they always cost less and have a softer ride than Mercedes and BMW with whom Cadillac will compete. I don't think the units will fall too much, if any, because there will be signigicant product coming into the lineup in the next few years, and aside from the CTS and Escalade, what is really selling well?

lemko

...shows a couple of bank robbers emerge from the bank and jump into a 1999 Oldsmobile Cutlass sedan as two police cars pull up quickly in front and back of the robbers' getaway car. The police officers totally ignore the robbers and run into the bank building. The bewildered robbers just casually pull away while the cops are in the bank.

Then a picture of a 2008 Malibu on a turntable appears and the announcer declares, "Finally a car you can't ignore: the new Malibu by Chevrolet!" Then back to the scene of the robbery with the cops scratching their heads wondering where the robbers are.

This ad is particularly funny to me because my girlfriend had a 1999 Olds Cutlass sedan and I felt this anonymous mediocre car represented all that was wrong with GM at the time. What's even more ironic is that the Cutlass sedan was just a badge-engineered version of the 1997-era Malibu.

fezo

Yeah, I saw that! Also saw another one that has a runner running right into one of those old things with the same tag line.

I consider the fact that GM can make fun of its old self to be a very good sign indeed.

fintail

I recall that same ad...very well done, while it stops short of calling the old car boring dreck, it makes clear there is a difference between old and new. That's exactly the point GM needs to get across.

rockylee

I will admit to not being fully versed in the lux market. My background has been in the mid size market. However instead of a V8 (which will drop into the current CTS and I have no doubt will be there soon)how about a dual turbo to get the HP up to 400+? Would that be competitive? In this soon to be 35 mpg CAFE world the OEM's need to come up with powertrains that have the MPG and the HP.

Well the 400 hp Twin-Turbo 3.6 "High Feature" VVT V6 engine in the Buick Velite proved it can be done.

Perhaps adding XWD to this CTS-Twin-Turbo would be a good move ?

-Rocky

rockylee

http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2007/10/turbo-x-at-the-nurburgring.html

-Rocky

sls002

The Buick Velite was a one off showcar and the engine was not a production engine. The engine may have been a working engine, and may have had a dual turbo, but the horsepower rating may have been fiction. The Cien engine is a perfect example of and engine with horsepower rating (750) that made no sense when compared to the torque rating (450 max at 6000 RPMs). To get 750 horsepower from 450 lb-ft of torque required the engine to run nearly 10,000 RPMs :sick:

However, a twin turbo version of the high feature V6 is possible, probably with a 3.2 liter displacement. I think that a larger displacement would require a new block design to get a reliable production engine.

bumpy

Perhaps adding XWD to this CTS-Twin-Turbo would be a good move ?

Adding it to the regular CTS would be a good move. Adding it to the manual CTS would be a better move.

rockylee

So you think 400+ twin-turbo horsepower out of the 3.6 "high feature" V6 likely. Hell the 3.6 has 304 hp. without any turbo/supercharger application. Add a couple of turbo's and 400 hp. is cake.

Why would it take a new block design to get reliability ??? I believe I read somewhere that GM, was working on turbo technology and the 3.6 was one of the guinea pigs.

-Rocky

jae5

Rock,

SLS is basing a displacement bump is needed if using a 3.2L and that the 3.2 may be at its capacity, hence needing a new block casting.

But I agree, I thought I read as well the TT would be on the "high-feature" 3.6. I would guess new pistons (at least) and other internals would be needed to deal with the pressure. Remember, most turbo applications don't like high-compression, so reverse-dome pistons or other means may be needed needed to lower it. Doesn't the 3.6 have kind of a high compression? I'm not sure if this is the case in a sequential turbo setup though.

xrunner2

...shows a couple of bank robbers emerge from the bank and jump into a 1999 Oldsmobile Cutlass sedan as two police cars pull up quickly in front and back of the robbers' getaway car. The police officers totally ignore the robbers and run into the bank building. The bewildered robbers just casually pull away while the cops are in the bank.

Yeah, the TV ad is funny. But, another take on the ad could be that the dumb cops arrive in two Chevy Impala police cars. Chevies!!! Is there another message there? Wasn't there a movie awhile back about dumb?

sls002

If you are going to turbo-charger, or super-charge, and engine, the engine has to be designed to be strong enough to handle the extra stress. My feeling is that the 3.6 is at the upper limit of the size range for the V6 line, meaning that the bore is a big as possible for the block. This means the block can be made stronger only by reducing the bore (and the displacement). When the high-feature V6 was introduced, as I recall, a turbo version of 3.2 liters was one variant of the line up. There is a turbo version of the 2.8 liter engine, and I think a larger turbo can be built, but a twin turbo 3.6 may require an all new block to handle the stress. The supercharged northstar engine is an all new block too, as the basic northstar block was not strong enough.

imidazol97

>the dumb cops arrive in two Chevy Impala police cars

The dumb would be arriving in Camry police cars. I can't find a picture of Georgetown, Kentucky, police cars. When the plant opened,they made a big deal about Toyo giving the city policecars. But I can't find a picture anymore. Maybe they don't use Camry's anymore? :sick:

anythngbutgm

Probably not since all Toyota engines are full of sludge right from the factory huh?

anythngbutgm

Probably wouldn't make a good pursuit vehicle either with all the transmissions being bad before the cops even got a hold of them.

Plus, I'm sure the police force doesn't want to waste entire weeks waiting for hidden recalls to be taken care of. Since Toyota screws everybody who ends up with one of those :lemon: 's

imidazol97

I'm going to stop at the downtown Chevy dealer to see the new Malibu when I go to the appliance parts place today. I'm anxious to see the new model.

xrunner2

>the dumb cops arrive in two Chevy Impala police cars

The dumb would be arriving in Camry police cars.

Seems that GM ad agency was too simplistic in making the bank robbery ad. "Thinking" viewers will duly note that the cops arrived in GM Chevy Impalas. And, smart bank robbers (an oxymoron?) would not be driving an old Olds. If they could only steal an old car, it would be an old Honda for reliability.

Think that Dirty Harry had a full size Ford sedan in his first movie where he captured a bank robber right after eating a hot dog. Real cops drive full-size Fords or Dodges these days. Have also seen some in Tahoes and Explorers.

imidazol97

Please note the title of the topic: In Support of GM--Wanting Them to Succeed.

Our police departments around the area have Chevy Impala police cars. They work very well and they are very happy. Our city has Impalas for the administration also.

Some agencies drive Fords including the Ohio State Highway Patrol. The local sheriff has a mixture of vehicles.

bumpy

My feeling is that the 3.6 is at the upper limit of the size range for the V6 line

I read somewhere that the HF V6 was designed for a 2.5-4.0 liter displacement range, so there is a bit of room to bump it up.

lemko

Well, if that 1999 Olds Cutlass sedan was anything like my girlfriend's old ride, the cops had a pretty good chance of catching the robbers regardless of what squad cars in which they arrived. If the robbers drove away, all the cops would have to do is follow the coolant trail.

The bank robbers' car in "Dirty Harry" was a beige 1966 Ford Galaxie.

jae5

That could be the case in some rare instances nowadays but not all. On some of the thin-wall castings, particularly aluminum 4-cyl, extra ribbing may be needed due the higher cylinder pressures. But on most, the majority if not all of the beefing up is done to the internals, like pistons, forged crank instead of cast, connecting rods, as I stated before. Additional hardware may be oil squirters, spraying oil under the pistons to help cool things down, increased cooling passages, adding larger internal fillets to aid coolant and oil flow & heat transfer. Also remember that most of the aluminum blocks have pressed-in liners (except your higher-end engines that use nikasil I want to say, or other type of coatings), eliminating the need of separate liners. So yes, while may be only able to bore the engine .030" (or 0,76mm if you prefer), you can replace the sleeve if possible with on that allows a bigger bore. You may decrease the spacing in-between these bores (not the center-center, but the spacing between the O.D.), making the block essentially a "siamese-bore". Or you can use the bed-plate idea from BMW. You can also do what some of us do that build / run hi-po motors, install a stud-girdle, tying all the mains together, and other things. Or not run tons of boost and making sure a waste-gate & pop-off valves are in the system for over-boost situations. And as you stated, reduce the bore.

But I would think it somewhat fool-hardy to design an engine block that can't handle inceased power output with today's knowledge and metallurgy, unless you're making a motor with large amounts of boost, and/or the S/C - T use will be in an application where the upper performance limits would be met on a regular basis. In the end it's really going to boil down to the boost, compression ratio and application.

fezo

Anybody remember that in 1980 some police departments were using American made Volkswagen Rabbits? Those had to be the funniest looking things I ever saw. The crooks in the Cutlass would make a clean (well, other than the coolant trail) getaway.

cooterbfd

From the files of Autoblog:

A couple of days ago we told you about two new issues with the Toyota Tundra that were drawing the ire of some owners. The first is the "rumble strip" transmission problem, for which Toyota has promised to replace the torque converter box of any affected truck. The other issue involved tailgates that were experiencing metal separation and cracks under load, some even deforming out of shape.

And this:
The hits just keep coming for Toyota Motor Co. After a pair of new problems with its all-important Tundra pickup were brought to light this week, a reader sent us a link to this article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that reveals the automaker will voluntarily fix the front doors on 600,000 units of its Sienna minivan (current model shown above) built between 2004 and 2006. Apparently there may be an issue with the door check mounting panel on both of the minivan's front doors. The door check mounting panel is the piece that keeps the door open, and if the part fails the door can swing freely and unexpectedly shut – obviously a concern for parents with kids. Toyota has traced the problem back to bad spot welds performed at the automaker's Princeton, Indiana factory.

tlong

Plus, I'm sure the police force doesn't want to waste entire weeks waiting for hidden recalls to be taken care of. Since Toyota screws everybody who ends up with one of those :lemon: 's

Don't forget the currency mainpulation!

sls002

The point is that one probably can't just bolt on a couple of turbo-chargers to the standard 3.6 engine and have 400 horsepower. A production engine will probably need some up-grades.

62vetteefp

Wagoner also confirms GM’s development of a new small rear-wheel-drive
architecture, known internally as Alpha. But that doesn’t mean the
Detroit-based platform will underpin any revival of the Holden Torana, as
media reports suggest.

Wagoner says Alpha is a strictly premium engineering base, most accurately
described as a BMW 3-Series rival, and intended to transform Cadillac from
a “niche global player” to a serious presence in the luxury car field.

The architecture reportedly combines elements of GM’s existing Kappa global
architecture used for the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky roadster with the
auto maker’s modified Australian-derived Zeta platform.

Wagoner does not say, but the new small Cadillac is expected to be
positioned below the CTS in size. It would replace the European-built BLS,
based on the front-wheel-drive Epsilon architecture shared with such cars
as the Saab 9-3 and Chevrolet Malibu.

Launch of the new model is set down for 2011, and Australia is on the
radarscope when it comes to help with engineering. “Our focus is on getting
it right,” says Wagoner. “That means not making it too expensive, or too
heavy.”

hpmctorque

See discussion I started, "New Line of GM Small RWDs" in Future Vehicles.

I think this is the most exciting news from GM in some time, but this must be a minority view, judging from how few messages were posted in that discussion. If you think this is an exciting prospect, 62vetteefp, maybe you can help crank up that discussion.

rockylee

I think once we get closer to seeing spy pics of thosenew "Alpha" cars that forum will heat up. However it's still fun to speculate with what we know now.

-Rocky

rockylee

Also don't forget "trade barriers" and "tariffs" on GM exports to Japan !!!!! :P

I think we covered all of em' right ?

-Rocky

imidazol97

>I think we covered all of em' right ?

Don't forget the "dumping" that occured in the 70s and 80s and probably even later. That is selling at less than the real cost of producing the product in the foreign country...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)

rockylee

imidazol97,

You would be very correct as I forgot about that one. :surprise: The Japanese, subsidized
their "dumping manufactors" as they new in the long run it would pay off. The "dumping" done in the 70's and 80's by the Japanese, was their worst attack on the U.S. since Pearl Harbor. :surprise:

-Rocky

tlong

I think we covered all of em' right?

I think so!!!

Seriously, has GM offered any right-hand drive vehicles in Japan?

rockylee

I think that would be a question for 62'

-Rocky

writer

Some of the above I consider legitimate complaints, but not the "dumping". I remember the accusations of dumping back in those years, and eventually found out that the US definition of "dumping" was biased. As a Canadian, I found the US positions in that regard generally fairly disgusting. They boiled down to prices lower than some US local producer (or maybe a cartel) liked.

writer

As I write this, I know it is far too late. The next Matrix/Vibe is probably hard spec'd, and maybe already being built in small test runs. So major changes are probably out of the question. However, this is something I had wanted to say before, and simply did not have the time:

If the companies want to make a vehicle that I would like (all one of me . . .) then what I think is the worst problem is that the AWD version was not available with a motor with enough power. Apparently, this was because there was not enough room in the engine compartment. The most immediate problem cited was that there was not enough room for a bigger exhaust when you added the AWD stuff.

The easiest solution is to increase the engine compartment space. And if you want to do that without reducing interior space, then the simplest idea is to add a bit of wheelbase. I would make the next Matrix/Vibe 1 or 2 inches long in wheelbase (and thus, also in overall length) with all that space given to the engine compartment. I would then increase the power of the motor. Part of that would simply be a better exhaust system. This is as close as you can come to "free" power gain.

OK. I have said it. Now everybody can ignore it, because you can pretty much bet it is not going to be done. Oh well.

lemko

This is why hubris is a deadly sin. Toyota, in its mad rush to become Number One, squandered its reputation for a meaningless victory. They might've become Number One in a few years, but they had to have it now.

lemko

Sing a song of 'Yotas
Pocketful of yen
GM, Ford, and Chrysler
Undersold again
See the U.S. suffer
From the job we do
This is how we get revenge
For losing World War II!

lemko

Shoot, they've been building RHD Vauxhalls in the U.K. and RHD Holdens in Australia since time immemorial. What would be so hard about RHD vehicles for Japan?

bumpy

NIH Syndrome. GM did sell a variety of Opels in Japan rebadged as Suzukis (or Subarus, maybe both) in recent years. The one time GMNA tried to make a product directed for the Japanese market, it was a RHD Cavalier sent to a market that expects a car of that size and power to be outfitted as well as a 2008 CTS.

62vetteefp

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/26/in-the-autoblog-garage-2008-buick-lacrosse-su- per/

With all these things on our mind, we found the LaCrosse Super to be a vastly different vehicle from the base LaCrosse, and were pleasantly surprised at what the Super brought to the road. The performance gurus took a pillow-soft platform and made it stiff and compliant by using much stiffer Bilsteing monotube struts. Steering was also tweaked, and the brakes were up-sized. The result is a Buick that can not only hit 60 in 5.7 seconds, but can also hit a turn at speed without feeling like it's going to tip. The Super is one of those vehicles that makes you think you're not going as fast as you are, so we had to really watch the speedometer while accelerating and cruising on the freeway. The LaCrosse Super's steering is also far more weighted and precise than what we're used to in a Buick, and coupled with four pinned-down wheels, this sedan was both more fun to drive and more luxurious than the V8-powered Impala SS we drove a year ago.

hpmctorque

Buick should make the Super suspension, wheels, tires, and steering available as a reasonably priced option on all LaCrosses, for those who don't need or want V8 power, but appreciate the other driving attributes of the Super. Same for the Lucerne.

62vetteefp

Wow, I can see the Pacifica going away but the PT? What does this hold for the HHR? Also proves again how hard it is to market a station wagon in this day of crossovers and SUV's. Just to much compromise with a small sedan based wagon when a real hauler like the SUV's are available.

I wonder if GM will rethink the CTS wagon? Probably not since the biggest reason for being is the European market. Pacifica was just getting old and looked too much like a wagon. The Lamda type vehicles are so more enticing as are other SUV type crossovers.

jae5

I agree, that would be good if Buick brings back the FE3 option. A nice go-between.

chuckhoy

I hope small wagons and hatchbacks do not go away in the next couple of years. When I am buying my next car, it will be a compact hatch or wagon. I prefer to drive small cars and the extra utiltiy would be great.

sls002

What Cadillac could do with the CTS wagon to make it more attractive is:
1) make the body taller but not as tall as the SRX
2) a variable height suspension
3) AWD optional

if the ground clearance is the same as the sedan (before the variable height addition), then the wagon should be about 3 inches taller (or so). Adding 2 inches of ground clearance for some off-road or other lower speed conditions would go a long way to getting the SUV advantages. I like the fact that I have yet to find a steep enough driveway to bottom out the front or rear end of my SRX. My FWD sedans would scrape their front ends on any moderately steep driveway or even bumps in the road.