And one good reason they do not kill Buick is because GM is trying to go worldwide with their marques. Buick sells big in China so they gotta keep it.
That's the only reason not to kill Buick. Apart from the Enclave, Buick is already dead in the US since the Social Security Administration is financing the few retail sales of the Lacrosse and Lucerne. GM could go ahead and kill Buick here since there's nothing it does that couldn't be done by the CTS, BLS, and whatever Lambda Cadillac is going to get. GM could sop the dealers by giving them a Caddy franchise.
Buick does plenty that can't be done by Cadillac. For starters, Cadillac will not have FWD vehicles. Buick (LaCrosse and Enclave) will. Secondly, look for Cadillac to start moving up the price ladder with prices more competitive with Mercedes and Buick with Lexus' FWD models. I think the Lucerne will die to be replaced by the Chinese Park Avenue, but it will be priced like an LS not an S-Class.
But if Cadillac is also bringing out something smaller than the CTS, they will also be moving down market. This will make Buick and Pontiac less desirable. The problem at Cadillac is that they are trying to match BMW and Mercedes, both of which are manufacturers (like GM) not a luxury division (like Cadillac).
What is the actual shape of the demographic of buyers for the LaCrosse and Lucerne? I see a lot of "younger" buyers other than the 65 and over set that some like to slam here. Apparently some are smart enough to recognize a good car and usually good dealers and buy a Lucerne or LaCrosse instead of a Camry or Accord or Avalon.
I do not know that answer today. I used to know what it was 4 years ago and I posted it here somewhere in these forums.
There is some sense to Bumpys point on the Cadillac vs. Buick and we should really throw in Pontiac. But lets compare two cars out there today. The CTS vs. LaCrosse. Both midsize vehicles which if looking at dimensional data alone you would think they compete. But they do not. Does anyone really think they do? Of course there will be some overlap but there is for any vehicle. I remember looking at 2nd choice data and seeing things like first choice was the Regal and 4th/5th choice something like a SUV.
Anyway the LaCrosse goes from $23k to maybe $34k. While the CTS goes from $34k to $5xk. Lots of difference there alone. The CTS is a very sporty RWD vehicle while the LaCrosse is very sedate FWD. Again very different and very different buyers.
Bumpys point on thye BLS vs LaCrosse competing with each other is mostly based on $ comparison. But there will be huge deltas in interior room and all other attributes.
Should Buick be dropped? Perhaps, but all the negatives (instant 5% volume drop, dealer buyouts, etc.) outweigh the other cost of keeping the division (marketing cost, investment, etc.)
The problem at Cadillac is that they are trying to match BMW and Mercedes, both of which are manufacturers (like GM) not a luxury division (like Cadillac).
Do not understand this. Here in the states they are all Luxury divisions and build only lux vehicles.
I don't think Cadillac will move down market by bringing in the BTS because I think the CTS will move upmarket to make room. What I always maintain is that in order for eight brands to make sense, Cadillac must move upmarket; there's no way around it. It won't happen next year, but it will happen.
Its like how everyone here likes to chide GM for having Cadillac as a "second" or "third" tier brand. I don't know how people define the tiers, but Cadillac will become more unattainable (tier one) in order for Buick (and Pontiac) (tier two) to pick up some volume at a lower pricepoint, although substantially higher than Chevy.
What is the actual shape of the demographic of buyers for the LaCrosse and Lucerne?
This ridiculously long link says that the average age for the Lacrosse is 69 and the Lucerne is 68, while Buick as a whole is 65 (the SUVs must have been in the lower 50s).
I think a mean that high tells a lot. I imagine there are few 100 year-olds around to counter a Buick purchaced by a 30 year-old. Although I was tempted by a Regal GS a few years ago.
Well if he can't afford or doesn't want to buy a loaded CTS, then maybe a G8, would be a good alternative ?????
Why doesn't he tell the dealer what he wants and have the dealer trade for it ???? :confuse:
He hasn't gotten that far yet. He hasn't determined whether or not the CTS is the car for him or not. A dealer trade or ordering one would probably be the way to go.
The article wasn't specific, but if the numbers were actually the median, then half of the buyers were at or above the given age and half were below it. Many of Buick's customers are buying their last car.
The Enclave will help, though I don't know about this "30 and 40" business. The handful I've seen were in the 40-50ish range, which is still great for Buick if they can actually sell in quantity.
I'm very conversant with the meaning of "mean." What I asked 62vettefp for is a histogram or box-whisker plot, e.g., showing HOW the spread of the age groups is for Buick, although as a whole company that is changing with the Enclave. 62vettefp is the only one on here who might have that information and it might not be public.
A loaded CTS should not run over $50,000 unless it is a V-series. Loaded CTS's should be just over $40,000. My local dealer has one for $36,000, but not the DI V6.
I used to like Buicks, but while I kind of liked my 1995 Riviera, I thought the interior had too much hard plastic with a cheap look to it. While I think my 2007 SRX interior is OK, it is still cheap looking in some ways, particularly compared to GM cars of the long (dead) past. In particular, the lower door trim (which is hard plastic) could be covered with carpet.
the lower door trim (which is hard plastic) could be covered with carpet.
Really aging yourself!!! Carpet on the bottom of the door trim went away many years ago as has vinyl roofs
Are there any vehicles out there being made today that actually use carpet on the bottom of the door trim? I should know but have forgotten, what does BMW and MB use for the lower half of the door trim?
I went to the BMW webpage and it looks like they use the same plastic below the armrest that my SRX used. But it is hard to tell. But no carpet.
Cadillac was putting carpet on the bottoms of the doors in the mid-90's. I think when the bodies were up-graded to the Aurora (or G) body, then the door trims were redone with more hard plastic and a much cheaper look. While I think that you are right, the European sedans don't use carpet on the bottoms of the doors either, that does not mean that the Cadillac doors are as good as they could be.
I think that the interior on my SRX could be nicer and the cheap looking plastic on the bottom of the doors is one thing that could be better. The point here is that if Cadillac really thinks that they are outdoing Mercedes, there are some things that need to be better.
no I didn't hear that, but I'm somewhat disappointed that they won't be offering a hybrid Suburban. I guess it wouldn't effect me anyway since my next Suburban will be a 3/4ton.
Well they might offer a 2-Mode hybrid in the near future on the Suburban. I still haven't heard if the Duramax will be a option on the suburban. I remember a year or so ago it was a rumor. :confuse:
I think I read it in Popular Science that it was only being offered in the Tahoe. Also, I read somewhere else (don't recall) about the upcomming hybrid Escalade and that the hybrid option wasn't going to be offered on the Escalade ESV.
So It's entirely possible that these sources are not 100% accurate.
I see no reason why they could not put the hybrid in the Suburban except either they fear a lack of market or, in the short term, productoin constraint.
If the hybrid Tahoes take off and sell big volume you will see the hybrid Suburbans out quickly. In my opinion I do not believe the hybrid SUV's will sell in huge quantities. Folks buying SUV's buy them because they need the benefits of the vehicle and not looking to make a statement. They will not see the extra hybrid expense worthwhile nor make economical sense.
For the Prius owners it is both a statement of their beliefs and/or really trying to cut back on pollution/cutting oil usage. Like buying a muscle car (which really does not make any sense) the Prius makes a visible personal statement. Other hybrids have dropped to the side because they may have fulfilled the pollution/cutting oil usage criteria but not the personal visible statement. I think the hybrid SUV's as GM has released does not meet this criteria and does not fit into the mindset of really cutting oil usage.
But GM is making a huge effort to cast the Chevrolet division as the green division at GM. I think they have made the right choice in divisions. Saturn would be my 2nd choice but, if green does take off, that would steal sales from GM's high volume division and they will move the green hardware into the other divisions as it gets more mainstream.
General Motors Corp. will make Chevrolet, its best-selling brand, the center of an urgent attempt to cast the automaker as a progressive, environmentally friendly company to consumers worldwide.
The approach will involve a massive, worldwide marketing campaign and a lineup of vehicles that uses a variety of fuel-saving technologies -- including some that have yet to be created.
As part of the announcement, GM today will debut its gasoline-electric Chevrolet Silverado, the nation's first hybrid pickup.
the Chevy strategy aims to take a portfolio of complicated technologies, some that exist and some yet to be realized, and turn it into something marketable and digestible to U.S. consumers.
The marketing piece of the strategy will tout Chevrolet's five "Fuel Solutions:" more efficient internal combustion engines; biofuels such as E85 ethanol; gas-electric hybrids; electrically driven vehicles; and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. The brand's new tagline is "Chevrolet, from gas-friendly to gas-free."
On the product side, GM plans to eventually offer a green version of virtually every Chevy model.
I agree with your comments on the hybrid option on the Tahoe/Suburban. My main beef with it is the loss to tow capacity. That alone would most likely keep me from buying the hybrid model.
I'd seriously consider one of the new Lambdas if it had the two mode hybrid. I would think the Chevy version would be the one to get it. I don't tow anything too big so the loss in capacity wouldn't be a negative for me.
Nice charts. Would like to know identity of all blue circles. See that Buick's market share trending down since about 1983. Also see that it was trending up 1970-1983. Maybe Buick can reverse current trend with good product such as Enclave, Lucerne for seniors, revamped Lacrosse, Chinese Buick, etc.
Median age for Buick buyers being 65 not all that bad given that baby-boom generation is starting to collect SS and has a lot of money in 401's, IRA's, houses, etc..
Seniors living lot longer into late 70's, 80s' 90's. Good market for Buick. I have a relative that turned 100 within last month "and" he has a valid driver's license. I understand (from my sister) that he drives locally, church, shopping, etc, and is very alert and with it. He has been very active and physical all of his life. He never was one to sit around, probably does not waste time reading or writing messages on internet boards.
Median age of 65 would be great IF: "new" older buyers bought Buick. But they have not.
the issue is that the older folks are going over to the imports just like the younger ones. And those that are/were loyal Domestic/Buick buyers are dieing of old age.
Another issue is that Buick is known as the car for old folks and therefore is a tough sell to both younger and older buyers. Thier previous vehicles (Regal, Century, LeSabre, Park) were made and marketed to the older population and the LaCrosse whjile much more youthful did not go far enough in the styling department. The Lucerne also did not go far enough.
Buick needs to turn up the heat and they have with the Enclave and the upcoming LaCrosse.
side note. Talked to someone yesterday who saw one at Design Staff. GM is keeping up the attack on the design side. Said it was as different/great looking as the Enclave/CTS. Really styled inside and out. Thats all I can say but be ready for a real hit. I believe that Buick will turn around in the next 2 years. They should never sell 400,000 cars/year but I would think something over 300,000 with high price retention will be achievable. That would outsell Lexus with only 4 products vs. their 8.
I believe that Buick will turn around in the next 2 years. They should never sell 400,000 cars/year but I would think something over 300,000 with high price retention will be achievable.
Globally maybe, certainly not in the US. Over 300k here would be about twice what they're doing now. Not gonna happen in 24 months, especially with no new product in that timeframe. Even after that, I think 200k is the best they can hope for with two cars and a SUV.
Globally maybe, certainly not in the US. Over 300k here would be about twice what they're doing now. Not gonna happen in 24 months, especially with no new product in that timeframe. Even after that, I think 200k is the best they can hope for with two cars and a SUV.
??? Buick sold almost 300,000 units in '06 (US). How did you get 150,000?
Sold 61k Rendy's, 20k Vans and 15k Rainiers for a total of almost 100k. I know they are limiting production but I would think they will sell 65k Enclaves pretty easily.
LaCrosse sold almost 100k and with a better/new product for 2009 will sell over 100k conservatively even at a perhaps higher ATP.
Lucerne sold over 75k and may fall over time but should keep above 50K until the new one in 2011 or so.
Buick already took the fleet reduction hit last year so that volume probably will not change that much.
That totals 215,000 units in the 2009/10 time frame and that does not include a new product that may be available by then. And that is about as low as it could go. I think the LaCrosse will probably sell closer to 150k and the new vehicle with the Lucerne should sell a total of 100k. That goes over the 300k mark.
Lacrosse is on pace for 50k and Lucerne for 85k this year. The Supers may stanch the bleeding somewhat, but if GM is serious about paring down the fleet sales those two are still going to post smaller numbers next year. Enclave had a short year and GM is making a lot of noise about not overproducing them, but I'll be nice and give it 65k for next year.
However my numbers for Enclave and Lucerne still seem very probable (65k, 50k) and when the new LaCrosse comes out I still predict 150k. Now the LaCrosse is supposed to come out winter of 2009 so 2010 is the fist year of full production. And the new Lucerne is being introduced in the fall of calender year 2010 so the Lucerne number would be closer to 100k than 50k.
And there are still rumors of the chinese Park being built and sold here as is a smaller 5 seater CUV. 300k may be on the high side but it is very possible with the new product.
Numbers are so close seems to not be much difference anymore. GM has 4 in top 10 and Chevy outscored Toyota. But Lexus still on top. Industrywide, the survey has a margin of error of plus or minus one point on the 1,000-point scale, but it runs from four to 15 points on individual brands depending on the number of responses per brand, the company said. For Lexus, the margin of error is five points, the company said.
The margin of error is high enough and the top brand scores are so close that it's difficult to discern the overall winner.
WOW, I am amazed that California gave any kind of green award to the evil Domestics. Even said good things. Of course California gets all the credit in "forcing" the changes. Now if only GM could get 35 mpg out of that SUV! I am sure that is gonna happen in time for the new California CO2 rules. :surprise:
Comments
That's the only reason not to kill Buick. Apart from the Enclave, Buick is already dead in the US since the Social Security Administration is financing the few retail sales of the Lacrosse and Lucerne. GM could go ahead and kill Buick here since there's nothing it does that couldn't be done by the CTS, BLS, and whatever Lambda Cadillac is going to get. GM could sop the dealers by giving them a Caddy franchise.
What is the actual shape of the demographic of buyers for the LaCrosse and Lucerne? I see a lot of "younger" buyers other than the 65 and over set that some like to slam here. Apparently some are smart enough to recognize a good car and usually good dealers and buy a Lucerne or LaCrosse instead of a Camry or Accord or Avalon.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There is some sense to Bumpys point on the Cadillac vs. Buick and we should really throw in Pontiac. But lets compare two cars out there today. The CTS vs. LaCrosse. Both midsize vehicles which if looking at dimensional data alone you would think they compete. But they do not. Does anyone really think they do? Of course there will be some overlap but there is for any vehicle. I remember looking at 2nd choice data and seeing things like first choice was the Regal and 4th/5th choice something like a SUV.
Anyway the LaCrosse goes from $23k to maybe $34k. While the CTS goes from $34k to $5xk. Lots of difference there alone. The CTS is a very sporty RWD vehicle while the LaCrosse is very sedate FWD. Again very different and very different buyers.
Bumpys point on thye BLS vs LaCrosse competing with each other is mostly based on $ comparison. But there will be huge deltas in interior room and all other attributes.
Should Buick be dropped? Perhaps, but all the negatives (instant 5% volume drop, dealer buyouts, etc.) outweigh the other cost of keeping the division (marketing cost, investment, etc.)
Do not understand this. Here in the states they are all Luxury divisions and build only lux vehicles.
Its like how everyone here likes to chide GM for having Cadillac as a "second" or "third" tier brand. I don't know how people define the tiers, but Cadillac will become more unattainable (tier one) in order for Buick (and Pontiac) (tier two) to pick up some volume at a lower pricepoint, although substantially higher than Chevy.
This ridiculously long link says that the average age for the Lacrosse is 69 and the Lucerne is 68, while Buick as a whole is 65 (the SUVs must have been in the lower 50s).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My dad just turned 56 and won't look at a Buick. Neither would my mother-in-law who turns 60 this month.
My dad is in the market for a new car. He's eyeing the new CTS, but his local Caddy dealership didn't have a CTS for under $50k.
Why doesn't he tell the dealer what he wants and have the dealer trade for it ???? :confuse:
-Rocky
Why doesn't he tell the dealer what he wants and have the dealer trade for it ???? :confuse:
He hasn't gotten that far yet. He hasn't determined whether or not the CTS is the car for him or not. A dealer trade or ordering one would probably be the way to go.
Something related:
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I used to like Buicks, but while I kind of liked my 1995 Riviera, I thought the interior had too much hard plastic with a cheap look to it. While I think my 2007 SRX interior is OK, it is still cheap looking in some ways, particularly compared to GM cars of the long (dead) past. In particular, the lower door trim (which is hard plastic) could be covered with carpet.
Really aging yourself!!! Carpet on the bottom of the door trim went away many years ago as has vinyl roofs
Are there any vehicles out there being made today that actually use carpet on the bottom of the door trim? I should know but have forgotten, what does BMW and MB use for the lower half of the door trim?
I went to the BMW webpage and it looks like they use the same plastic below the armrest that my SRX used. But it is hard to tell. But no carpet.
http://www.bmwusa.com/BMW2003/Templates/Vehicles/Series/Model/ModelGallery.aspx?- NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b3957B3EF-362C-4A16-80FD-5BD306AC6F67%7d&NRORIGINA- LURL=%2fvehicles%2f5%2f528iSedan%2fgallery%2ehtm&NRCACHEHINT=Guest
I think that the interior on my SRX could be nicer and the cheap looking plastic on the bottom of the doors is one thing that could be better. The point here is that if Cadillac really thinks that they are outdoing Mercedes, there are some things that need to be better.
Hey did you guys read that the Escalade, is getting Delphi Magneride ????? :surprise: Cool, eh ????? :shades:
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
So It's entirely possible that these sources are not 100% accurate.
If the hybrid Tahoes take off and sell big volume you will see the hybrid Suburbans out quickly. In my opinion I do not believe the hybrid SUV's will sell in huge quantities. Folks buying SUV's buy them because they need the benefits of the vehicle and not looking to make a statement. They will not see the extra hybrid expense worthwhile nor make economical sense.
For the Prius owners it is both a statement of their beliefs and/or really trying to cut back on pollution/cutting oil usage. Like buying a muscle car (which really does not make any sense) the Prius makes a visible personal statement. Other hybrids have dropped to the side because they may have fulfilled the pollution/cutting oil usage criteria but not the personal visible statement. I think the hybrid SUV's as GM has released does not meet this criteria and does not fit into the mindset of really cutting oil usage.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071114/AUTO04/711140411
General Motors Corp. will make Chevrolet, its best-selling brand, the center of an urgent attempt to cast the automaker as a progressive, environmentally friendly company to consumers worldwide.
The approach will involve a massive, worldwide marketing campaign and a lineup of vehicles that uses a variety of fuel-saving technologies -- including some that have yet to be created.
As part of the announcement, GM today will debut its gasoline-electric Chevrolet Silverado, the nation's first hybrid pickup.
the Chevy strategy aims to take a portfolio of complicated technologies, some that exist and some yet to be realized, and turn it into something marketable and digestible to U.S. consumers.
The marketing piece of the strategy will tout Chevrolet's five "Fuel Solutions:" more efficient internal combustion engines; biofuels such as E85 ethanol; gas-electric hybrids; electrically driven vehicles; and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. The brand's new tagline is "Chevrolet, from gas-friendly to gas-free."
On the product side, GM plans to eventually offer a green version of virtually every Chevy model.
Median age for Buick buyers being 65 not all that bad given that baby-boom generation is starting to collect SS and has a lot of money in 401's, IRA's, houses, etc..
Seniors living lot longer into late 70's, 80s' 90's. Good market for Buick. I have a relative that turned 100 within last month "and" he has a valid driver's license. I understand (from my sister) that he drives locally, church, shopping, etc, and is very alert and with it. He has been very active and physical all of his life. He never was one to sit around, probably does not waste time reading or writing messages on internet boards.
"new" older buyers bought Buick. But they have not.
the issue is that the older folks are going over to the imports just like the younger ones. And those that are/were loyal Domestic/Buick buyers are dieing of old age.
Another issue is that Buick is known as the car for old folks and therefore is a tough sell to both younger and older buyers. Thier previous vehicles (Regal, Century, LeSabre, Park) were made and marketed to the older population and the LaCrosse whjile much more youthful did not go far enough in the styling department. The Lucerne also did not go far enough.
Buick needs to turn up the heat and they have with the Enclave and the upcoming LaCrosse.
side note. Talked to someone yesterday who saw one at Design Staff. GM is keeping up the attack on the design side. Said it was as different/great looking as the Enclave/CTS. Really styled inside and out. Thats all I can say but be ready for a real hit. I believe that Buick will turn around in the next 2 years. They should never sell 400,000 cars/year but I would think something over 300,000 with high price retention will be achievable. That would outsell Lexus with only 4 products vs. their 8.
Globally maybe, certainly not in the US. Over 300k here would be about twice what they're doing now. Not gonna happen in 24 months, especially with no new product in that timeframe. Even after that, I think 200k is the best they can hope for with two cars and a SUV.
The article said that Lincoln and Jaguar were in the 50s, and I would assume the third one is Cadillac.
??? Buick sold almost 300,000 units in '06 (US). How did you get 150,000?
Sold 61k Rendy's, 20k Vans and 15k Rainiers for a total of almost 100k. I know they are limiting production but I would think they will sell 65k Enclaves pretty easily.
LaCrosse sold almost 100k and with a better/new product for 2009 will sell over 100k conservatively even at a perhaps higher ATP.
Lucerne sold over 75k and may fall over time but should keep above 50K until the new one in 2011 or so.
Buick already took the fleet reduction hit last year so that volume probably will not change that much.
That totals 215,000 units in the 2009/10 time frame and that does not include a new product that may be available by then. And that is about as low as it could go. I think the LaCrosse will probably sell closer to 150k and the new vehicle with the Lucerne should sell a total of 100k. That goes over the 300k mark.
Buick 10/07: 14,231; YTD 07: 158,146
Lacrosse 10/07: 3,128; YTD 07: 41,073
Lucerne 10/07: 6,570; YTD 07: 71,021
Enclave 10/07: 4,244; YTD 07: 20,726
Lacrosse is on pace for 50k and Lucerne for 85k this year. The Supers may stanch the bleeding somewhat, but if GM is serious about paring down the fleet sales those two are still going to post smaller numbers next year. Enclave had a short year and GM is making a lot of noise about not overproducing them, but I'll be nice and give it 65k for next year.
However my numbers for Enclave and Lucerne still seem very probable (65k, 50k) and when the new LaCrosse comes out I still predict 150k. Now the LaCrosse is supposed to come out winter of 2009 so 2010 is the fist year of full production. And the new Lucerne is being introduced in the fall of calender year 2010 so the Lucerne number would be closer to 100k than 50k.
And there are still rumors of the chinese Park being built and sold here as is a smaller 5 seater CUV. 300k may be on the high side but it is very possible with the new product.
I thought that "Chinese Park Avenue" and "new Lucerne" were going to be the same thing?
Numbers are so close seems to not be much difference anymore. GM has 4 in top 10 and Chevy outscored Toyota. But Lexus still on top.
Industrywide, the survey has a margin of error of plus or minus one point on the 1,000-point scale, but it runs from four to 15 points on individual brands depending on the number of responses per brand, the company said. For Lexus, the margin of error is five points, the company said.
The margin of error is high enough and the top brand scores are so close that it's difficult to discern the overall winner.
1. Lexus, 897
2. Hummer, 895
3. Jaguar, 893
4. Lincoln, 892
5. Mercedes-Benz, 888
6. Buick, 887
7. Cadillac, 885
8. Saturn, 880
9. Porsche, 879
10. Mercury, 878
-Rocky