Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
General Motors discussions
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
What good would dropping brands do if the dealers need to be paid off??? Dropping 1 brand may work, as they can tell the BPG dealers they still have 2, or offer Saturn dealers BPG, but to rid them all would cost billions.
I'm guessing that in most areas where there are Saturn dealerships that there are already Pontiac-GMC-Buick. It's a tough situation.
I don't what it costs GM to have a dealership as opposed to supplying x number of cars. If eliminating a brand saves money in and of itself then Pontiac is pretty easy to eliminate because there aren't many Pontiac dealers that don't also sell the others.
Unfortunately, it's probably too late for that.
I do hope they are able to put a realistic package together to keep things going but the sacrifices will be all around.
I'll be very curious to see how they come back to Congress. It sure looks like Ford doesn't want to do anything other than making sure GM doesn't go chapter 11 because that might bring Ford down with it (of course along with Chrysler). Ford is trying to protect the Ford family so they can still run the show.
It's part of the tough decisions GM needs to make. They have to show how they are going to become a viable company. This is part of the issue. If this is part of their plan, I think Congress will support it and help finance their turn around. The truly unfortunate part is thousands of job will be lost and it's probably too late to save them.
Well, I was thinking they could sell the Saab and Saturn brands wholesale - no need to pay off any dealers there. I don't know about Pontiac, but then again I'm not the one suggesting it, GM is as part of their bailout plan.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
GM could even do an IPO, spin off the two brands, and retain maybe 33% in the new company. Then again, an IPO in this market is the kiss of death.
Saab and Saturn were the last two to be integrated into GM- wouldn't this also mean that they would be the easiest to divorce from GM?
The complication here is so many Saab dealers have become Cadillac-Hummer-Saab...
As for GM...my master plan for them is to get out of the car business, buy the rest of GMAC, become a bank holding company in order to get Fed loans, and become a successful mortgage originator and automotive financing company...they can finance and lease Ford vehicles. :shades:
That is a good idea. Sadly it looks like Cerberus is the one that will pull it off. Cerberus wants the remaining part of GMAC in return for what is left of Chrysler. GM management is dumb enough to fall for it. They did sell 51% of GMAC that is partially responsible for their current condition. GM is the next Enron from where I am sitting. Wagoner and company should be tried for fraud in taking $millions while the company was losing $billions.
Sounds like GM. Let em die before we waste $Billions trying to resuscitate them.
The bigger problem is the top management at GM either doesn't see this, believe what they have done is enough or realize it but feel handcuffed by their investors. Either way, the top management at GM has been a major disappointment and must go. They were unable to make this company profitable during easy credit and record sales. How the heck can they make a profit in these market conditions???
I feel bad for the workers but they also had to know that GM's business model was unsustainable. it's not like this was a mom and pop operation where only 2 or 3 people knew the condition of the company. This is a publicly traded company that has to report it's earnings every quarter. Since the second half of 2004, GM has been losing money. Everyone knows that at some point the reserves are going to run, don't they? If, When, GM declares bankruptcy, the UAW has to shoulder some of the blame although management should never agree to labor contracts they know they can't pay.
First and foremost eliminate as much rebadging as possible. There would be very few identical products sold under different names. In my opinion it's just a waste of money producing and marketing such duplicate vehicles with different names.
Get rid of Hummer. Even if Hummers get developed into decent and affordable offroaders, the name still has that anti-environment stigma attached to it that might take years of losses to overcome. As for Saab, as Shifty said, sell it, or raffle it off if necessary.
Keep GMC Truck division only for heavy duty commercial products, but not for selling light trucks and SUVs. Instead all light duty trucks wold be sold under the Chevy name.
SATURN
Make Saturn into GM's exclusive importer of foreign products such as the Opel and Vauxhall lineup from Europe, Holden vehicles from Australia.
Astra: keep it as is
Aura: replace it with a mid size European import from Opel
Sky: keep it as is
Vue: keep it as is
Outlook: axe it as it would be sold under Chevy anyways
New Saturn models:
Saturn Ute, which is the Holden Ute car based pickup. Price it starting at under $20k.
Saturn G8, sold currently under Pontiac but now would be sold under Saturn.
European "cargo cars" , basically tiny vans based on current cars such as Astravan and Combo.
BUICK
As someone pointed out early, get rid of the brand's geriatric image. I'd make it into GMs power and style division. This would mean vehicles with mega horsepower, bold styling, and heritage.
Lacrosse: axe it as it intrudes onto the Lucerne's price range and size
Lucerne: keep it as an entry level Buick sedan
Enclave: keep it only in it's most potent and loaded form (leather with all bells and whistles)
New Buick models:
Grand National: RWD coupe based off the G8 sedan platform
Special or Super: make it Buick's halo car, a full size 4 door convertible sedan, similar in style to the Chrysler Phaeton concept of the 90s but with updated looks and technology.
Also make a 2 door convertible version of the car.
CADILLAC
CTS: keep it as is but add a CTS wagon, convertible, and a coupe to compete head on with BMW 3 series and MB C Class
STS: keep it as is but style it slightly differently so it doesn't look almost like a CTS, and also add a wagon to the mix
DTS: rename it to a Fleetwood or Deville Concours (or other glitzy name it deserves), give it a RWD platform, and as many mentioned before, make it the best that it can be so it can compete with the likes of the MB S class, Lexus LH, and BMW 7 series. Spare no expenses and make it the standard of the world again. Make it more reliable than German counterparts and maybe you can win over some MB and BMW buyers.
XLR: Axe it
SRX, Escalade, Escalade ESV: keep as is.
Escalade EXT: axe it, as it's almost the same as an Avalanche
PONTIAC
Get rid of the entire division.
Waves are sold under the Aveo name which would be replaced anyways. The G5s are rebadges Cobalts. Move the Vibe to the Chevy lineup. G6 sedan, coupe, and convertible, as nice as they look axe them as they overlap into other similar products and price ranges. Axe the Solstice as it's the same as the Sky. Axe the Gran Prix too.
CHEVROLET
Make Chevy the bread and butter lineup ranging from the most affordable car in America to the quickest (Corvette).
Aveo: axe it, after it's replaced by new Chevy Beat
Cobalt: update it until a suitable replacement to be brought to market asap
HHR: axe it
Malibu: keep it
Impala: make it into an affordable fun RWD sedan once again
Corvette: keep it
Equinox: axe it
Traverse: keep it but make it in twot wheelbase lengths to replace the Equinox
Tahoe: axe it
Suburban: keep it but make it in two wheelbase lengths to replace the Tahoe
Colorado: keep it but offer a base $15k model with a 4 cylinder motor.
Silverado: keep it
Avalanche: keep it
Express: keep it
New Chevy models:
Chevy Beat: fast track it's development so it can be borught to the market faster, price it at starting at under $12k.
Chevy Vibe: trnafer over from Pontiac's division
Chevy Volt: bring onto ther market as scheduled
Within 5 years offer the Volt powertrain on most small and mid size Chevies, just like hybrid powertrains are becoming a common option today.
Summary of casualties:
Saab lineup
Pontiac lineup (excpet the Vibe)
GMC Light duty trucks
Buick Lacrosse
Saturn Outlook
Chevy Aveo
Chevy HHR
Chevy Equinox
Chevy Tahoe
Cadillac Escalade EXT
Cadillac XLR
As for the dealer network, it would go through some reorganization, and some smaller ones will be bought out, other will get revised brand to sell:
Dealer networks would be divided into Buick/Cadillac (GM's luxury vehicles); Chevy only dealers since now the lineup is big enough; and Saturn only dealers since the lineup is large enough as well.
The sale of Saab wouldn't hurt Saturn dealers as they'd have more imported stuff to sell now. The Buick, Pontiac, and GMC Truck dealers would lose 2 brand but gain better Buick lineup and Cadillac line, so that they can focus only on luxury. The Chevy Cadillac dealers would lose the Caddy franchise but gain a broader mainstream Chevy line.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Sorry, I'm not too familiar with Buick's history.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Saab lineup
Pontiac lineup (except the Vibe)
GMC Light duty trucks
Buick Lacrosse
Saturn Outlook
Chevy Aveo
Chevy HHR
Chevy Equinox
Chevy Tahoe
Cadillac Escalade EXT
Cadillac XLR"
Your plan would have some merit if the company wasn't in such dire straits. Your vision is still too bloated of a company with too many unnecessary models and too much overlap/duplication, IMHO.
In addition to the streamlining of models, I'd also streamline the options and engine/tranny packages. I'd try to have each model available with one or two motors at most, and simple trim levels and packages, like Honda is doing. It would make ordering easier, production simpler, and less confusing for the customer.
I guess 2-3 years into the new plan I would start axing models as necessary based on sales figures, market demand, and trends.
If I'd have to go really extreme and cut even more, then I'd axe Buick as well (put it to sleep for now), and just leave a full Chevy, Caddy, and Saturn lineup as described in my original post.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
2. buy some car magazine publishing companies back from the current Japanese owners.
3. Figure out how to hold down the price of gas for the next 5 years
4. eliminate half of the 200 highest paid executives jobs in GM, worldwide.
5. negotiate a union contract that allows robots to eliminate jobs
6. negotiate to enforce a mandatory union retirement at 30 years
7. negotiate the elimination of pay to anybody not working an actual job, like jobs bank.
8. negotiate that union workers pay $3000 to $6000 a year for their family health and dental care insurance and co-pay like salary workers already do, including retirees.
9. lobby to get the gov't to buy all unused plants and real estate owned by GM but not being utilized
10. lobby to get gov't to have all buyers of new foreign cars (defined by company ownership) audited. (includes leasing and rentals)
11. lobby to get gov't to match funding for all R&D aimed at increasing fuel efficiency.
12. Get states to exempt D3 workers from state income tax, and collect that lost revenue from auto workers in foreign owned plants, equally divided among all of them.
13. lobby gov't to make it illegal to manufacture cars in America using parts purchased within the USA from non US owned companies, without paying auto import tarriffs.
So much for the "car company--oil company" conspiracies. They are more like two cats with tails tied together.
You can lay that right on the backs of the hedge fund speculators like George Soros. He wanted to make W look bad and spent $millions to get his way. The Big 3 collapsing would be exactly what he would like to see. He and his ilk will come in and buy up the pieces for pennies on the dollar.
2. Lobby...
.
.
13. Lobby...
So in other words, your plan for GM is for them to keep doing what they've been doing all along? :shades:
10. lobby to get gov't to have all buyers of new foreign cars (defined by company ownership) audited. (includes leasing and rentals)
12. Get states to exempt D3 workers from state income tax, and collect that lost revenue from auto workers in foreign owned plants, equally divided among all of them.
OK. I will jump in on this silliness.
On #9, lobby Congress to pass law that all owners of GM branded vehicles in the U.S. have to pony up $1,000 each to buy defunct GM plants and real estate. Any excess funds would just be given to GM to do with as it sees fit. Let the supporters of GM support "their" company. Owners would be found by doing 50 State DOT data base search. GM could have TV commercials touting how the ordinary U.S. citizens are patriotic and are helping an American icon and institution.
Wagoner would be the speaker and he would be standing in front of a Suburban and would have U.S. flags prominently displayed.
Any bailout of GM by Congress should have conditions:
On #12, require that State legislatures having GM plants to put on surcharge tax on difference in hourly wage of UAW worker and Honda/Toyota worker. If total package wage of U.S. GM worker is $73 and U.S. Toyota worker is $43, than a 20% surcharge tax should be levied on $30 and the surcharge receipts go to state education fund targetted at re-educating UAW workers.
On #10, might as well add in anyone who buys "any" product not made in the U.S. Those buyers of American brand vehicles who have "foreign" brand TVs, VCRS, DVD recorders/players, computers, printers, other electronics, cameras, microwave ovens, etc., would also be auditted.
Porsche predicts hedge fund takeover of GM and/or Ford
I certainly don't want taxpayer monies used to fatten up the automakers for hedge fund managers.
I see where the Big Three are driving fuel-efficient cars to DC this time and leaving the jets behind.
Close barn door, horse gone.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Holy crap! 18 Billion!
(quote)
""There isn't a Plan B," said Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson. "Absent support, frankly, the company just can't fund its operations." He said GM would need $10 billion to $12 billion by late March"
Then, after much talk to the contrary, their only elimination of brands is to try and sell Saab (who is buying?), well or kill Saturn (getting warmer) and make Pontiac a niche brand. Pardon me for saying so but hasn't the market already done that?
If Pontiac is a niche brand what the heck is Buick with three models? I'm getting confused... :confuse:
Not needed: any brand not named Chevy or Cadillac.
When are they going to get this? Note that car company with the blue oval logo, which only has three core brands plus a Swede, and is doing mucho better than General Morons right now, with 6 brands plus a Swede? And that particular Swede sells nothing unique, so it's really 7?
I guess I'd do nothing if I were in charge of GM...apparently I don't meet the job requirements: my IQ is higher than 5.
That's no more the final number than - the Big Dig in Boston originally costing $3B. All that is, is something GM thinks is palatable to get the ball rolling. Once they get this money committed, it is easier to come back and say "we just $10B more every 6 months because the economy hasn't turned around". It is much easier to ask for $18B and $10B and $10B ... rather than to come in and say "we're going to need $75B for the next 3 years, and we'll have a hell-of-a-time making any profit, to repay any of the loan".
Check the history of the Big Dig or many other projects, and you'll see the "teaser amounts" given to get the project approved, and then how it snowballs from there. ABC actually carried a similar story last night, about the visitor center at the Capitol. That center would never have started (hopefully due to public outcry) if the real-cost had been told.
We're a bunch of saps, or just powerless, to believe the costs we're presented when approving these projects. Even here you see proponents of giving the Big3 $25B and that will be enough. Well that $25B figure lasted what, 2 weeks, before it was revised - which way? UP. What a surprise!!! :mad:
That is where it belongs. He promised the Big 3 and the UAW he would fix the problem if they voted for him. Paybacks can be rough. Especially when you don't have a clue on how our economy works. I hope he has advisers that know what to do. I see another big Carter type recession looming.
Toyota = Chevrolet
Yaris = Aveo
Notes: Ick. Aveo, while priced right, really doesn't compete. I'd rather federalize the Corsa, convert a plant here in the states to build it, and be competitive.
Corolla = Cruze
Notes: With the right engines, this is quite possibly a shoot out. The 1.4L turbo engine has the possibility of being world-class in terms of power and efficiency.
Matrix = Vibe
Notes: A no-brainer, other than rebadging the Vibe as a Chevy. Same car, same plant, though I wonder how long Toyota will want to continue this partnership.
Camry = Malibu
Notes: As I see it, the Malibu is already as good as, if not better than, the Camry. Not much to do here.
Solara = G6 Coupe
Notes: A niche market. Improve the build quality of the G6, rebadge it as a Chevy and sell 20-30,000 per year. Same with the convertible version.
Avalon = Impala
Notes: Rebadge the Impala as a Caprice or, as an alternative, rebadge the current Buick Lucerne as a Chevrolet.
Prius = Volt
Notes: Figure out how to bring the Volt to market without having it cost $2-3 billion for development. Make it a unique body style - the current pictures of the Volt make it look like the Cruze. I think folks are starting to equate hybrids with 5-door hatchbacks (Prius, new Honda Insight).
Venza = SRX
Notes: Decontent and rebadge the SRX as a Chevy to compete.
Tacoma = Colorado
Notes: Update the powertrains and build quality in the Colorado to be competitive.
Tundra = Silverado
Notes: Nothing to do here; Silverado is already competitive.
RAV4 = VUE
Notes: Drop the Equinox and rebadge the VUE as a Chevrolet. Next iteration of the VUE needs to lose several hundred pounds.
FJ Cruiser = H3
Notes: Like the Solara, a niche market. May not matter, as I believe the FJ is slated for extinction.
Highlander = Traverse
Notes: Not quite direct competitors, but close enough.
4Runner = ???
Notes: With the demise of the TrailBlazer, there really isn't a direct competitor available from GM. Should there be?
Sequoia = Tahoe
Notes: None; Tahoe is competitive.
Land Cruiser = Suburban
Notes: Again, not a direct match up, but could be established that the Suburban is the "ne plus ultra" of the SUV set.
Sienna = none
Notes: GM has abandoned the minivan market. Why not bring over a people-mover from the European market and try again?
I need to think about the GM equivalents to Lexus (Buick or Cadillac) and Scion (Saturn?) and will post them later.
You don't have to worry about a "looming" recession. It's here.
November Sales Numbers are grim, but MINI is actually UP and Subaru is down just a few percent, and Lincoln is in a single digit decline, while most are down 30-40%.
I wonder what MINI and Subaru and to some extent Lincoln are doing right to hold the line here?
Anything that GM could emulate?
And Subaru happened to introduce the new Forester at exactly the right moment, and it just happened to be an unprecedented hit. They have stolen Toyota customers for sure this year. But also their own customer base hasn't been too badly affected so far, at least not in California. It's mostly teachers, college professors, and their ilk that buy Subarus right? Subaru certainly has not had to pour on the incentives in the latter half of the year as the domestics and Toyota have.
If I were a GM manager I wouldn't copy Toyota's lineup, they are down just as much as the market this year. All the biggest carmakers are bound to have a rough time in this type of economy. But if this current plan they have just released is the best my company can muster, I would resign today. This isn't a plan for major reform, it's just a slightly modified version of business as usual.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
MINI is just unique. There's nothing like it out there. You don't comparative shop a MINI. You either buy it or you don't.
A pretty good size subie dealer closed their doors a couple weeks ago in the boston area, that was a suprise.
If GM wants to turn around their company in the near term, offer two brands: GM cars and GM trucks. from the GM aveo :lemon: , to the GM corvette, from the GM traverse to the GM suburban. Offer a escalade option on the suburban and the rest of the caddy lineup can fold into the new GM car division. Sorry, but the caddy brand doesn't have any prestige in the real world anymore (1 successful car model (the CTS) cannot sustain a whole division).
Oh, while we're at it, give real names to cars, not acrynoms
for the consultant fees, pls contact me via my email for wiring instructions
I see people losing their homes as a MUCH bigger problem than auto sales slump. I think VW is doing better than most. Especially their Jetta TDI.
As far as the recession goes. I don't see any less people on the highway or in the malls. They may not be buying a new car every three years and flooding the used car market like the last 3 years. The simple truth is we were using home equity and cheap credit to buy cars we really did not need.
If I was in charge of GM I would take a long look in the mirror and question the gene pool I was spawned from.
Chrysler= Hideous resale value, low safety ratings, less than average consumer satisfaction and number of problems. Love the design of the charger though. Chrysler's designs DEF. have more edge than the other two, the quality and refinement just needs to improve , together with the safetey.
Ford= if I wanted a truck, they'd be great. Unfortunately I don't. I also don't want an explorer. Or escape. Its not that they're ugly, they just haven't changed in appearance since the 1990's when my parents owned two explorers. I know they've evolved, but its just tired looking. I would love to buy a lincoln, just can't get one for $25k (my budget). I could almost afford the MKZ, but gee, when you look around the lot, it feels like an overpriced fusion. The actual fusion? its alright, just vanilla looking. Bland. The focus? No, im not in college and more, and there are plenty of other cars in that segment more attractive for the same money. I love the EDGE crossover, but hello? 17 MPG in the city? Really ford? And I also love Mustangs, but thats a niche product, not a mass appeal product.
I actually like Mercury's, but unfortunately in my market mercury has been farmed out to a nissan dealer who chooses not to really carry any mercurys.
GMC= I actually really appreciate some of the newer designs. The roadsters are nice. The smaller SUV's are alright. The malibu is alright. But what is their youth/young adult brand? Saturn and Pontiac? I trust Saturn 'SOMEWHAT'... I just remember the plastic panel poverty cars they were when I was a teenager.. they should be cheaper for the feeling they give you. As for Pontiac ? Where to begin. My babysitter had one when I was a kid that all the buttons fell off the dash, the door handles broke inside , the windows stopped working, and the speedometer failed. My mom had one that had transmission failure at several thousand and a fuel system problem that no one could solve. In 2004, my friend had a 2001 that to get it to crank she would open the hood and ram a stick in the engine. Then theres that terrible guy I use to know who couldn't get a date to save his life.. he bought one every two years. The newer pontiacs are designed well (atleast the ones that aren't copies of other models) , but, the brand recognition , for me as a serious targetable car buyer for the next 20 years, is hideous. They should ditch the pontiac logo and the name and just come up with a new youth brand... impress me. I don't mind knowing GM made my car, but I can't deal with the garbage reputations so much of their nameplates created for me growing up.
My summation to all this? Target the 20 and 30 year olds. Stop being conservative with designs, and don't be afraid to ditch your "Legacy" plans and brands .... if american's liked you and what you stand for, the bailout wouldn't be a question