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General Motors discussions

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  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,589
    They change the style so your current car will become obsolete.
    Now it is cool to have small windows and round curves so you can't tell where the front or the back of the car is. In a few years they will have bigger windows and you will actually be able to tell where the trunk ends and the front fenders are...and the car companies will be saying, "hey we got this great new idea, cars you can actually see out of".
    The "sitting in a bathtub effect" is another styling innovation that will go out with the bath water, so to speak, in a few years.
    I agree about Chargers.....who thought of that design? All the worst designs all rolled into one vehicle. I kind of wonder about Magnums too, aren't they just station wagons that have been chopped and channeled like we used to do?
    IMHO the new square Caddy is the best design in American cars in a long time and I'd hate to see them change it!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • akenatenakenaten Member Posts: 122
    As for the caddys I think it's nice that somebody is trying to get away from the jellybean look that started with the Taurus. It seems that the only Vehicles with a lot of glass area anymore are vans,both mini and full size. I remember back in the seventies Ford went through the tiny widows/bathtub thing. Remember the Torino? Actually not bad cars(my Dad had one and it ran forever) but you needed that periscope. And the air conditioner had to be on all the time because opening the widows hardly did anything to cool you down.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Well, count on it, each new Cadillac iteration under Bob Lutz, will be rounder - he's convinced that's the style people should have, regardless of what they want. He'll screw up GM yet. Cadillac is the only division that is worth a darn at GM right now, at least in N.A., and he's going to mess with it. Remember, he cut his teeth at Ford, before he went to Chrysler.

    Parenthetically, I was behind a GTO the other day. First one I ever saw on the road, or noticed on the road. What a totally benign car for such a hot performer. Not too bad looking inside, but the outside is as unremarkable as you could get. Don't you want to say "Hey You" in a fast car? No wonder it sold 2 copies......
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Something like the Mustang soon become so numerous they no longer stand out. What is worse, unlike the days when you had a style change every couple of years, they keep the same exact style for many years. I kinda like the '94-'98 Mustang look, then there was the more edgy '99-'04 look which is in its self 6 years and many-many cars. In California it is one every ten cars.... well some times it seems that way in this college town. As much as I like some of these successful cars, they are so dang plentiful, they no longer seem to have visual impact on the street. It was like the first months the Datsun Z was out -- how cool !!! Then within a couple years, everyone, and I mean it seemed like a million were on the road. Well I suppose it was good that they sold. Too bad most rusted out.

    These days, driving a Monte Carlo may be the most special ride in the GM line, other than a Corvette at double or more the price. Looked at a CTS today. Seemed like a lot of money for what was there before my eyes. I saw not adjustment for the leather seat lumbar. Maybe it is hidden somewhere I did not find it. Anyway, the SAABs on the same lot seemed a bit more luxurious. I prefer the more styled CTS, but by the time you get the 3.6 V6, it is less than a bargain.

    Probably the most interesting style and value I have run across lately is the Tiburon. Actually looks different, and not everyone on the block owns one. They appear to have most everything in the cars already without any additions required. The GT V6 has all the side air bags and stuff like that. Will it hold up for 5 to 10 years? That I do not know. Does it come with style and content - hell yes it does!

    I may wait to see what the Sirocco and other new cars look like next year or two. Most everything now is sleepy looking sedans. If I want that, well Sonata has got it on the cheap, decent style, and in the V6 blows away the competition. Add a few more thousand, and there is the Altima, which really does have a little style, and the Fusion, which is not too bad. Very little knock-your-socks-off styles in cars under $21K these days.

    -Loren
  • akenatenakenaten Member Posts: 122
    Volkswagon or Mustang. Hmm,you must be female.In my experience I would'nt trust any Volkswagon to get me to the grocery store. They rank at the bottom of most quality lists and I can't count how many people I've known that rue the day they bought one.
    Now in my(and many others')opinion the Mustang is the ultimate chick car. Especially a V6 powered convertable.Here in California I see A LOT more women driving them and I always get a kick out of seeing some clueless shlub driving one thinking he's a bad-[non-permissible content removed]. And yes I know I have way too much time on my hands. ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    :sick:

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "I would'nt trust any Volkswagon to get me to the grocery store."

    Oh, it would probably get you there. Just wouldn't get you home under its own power.....
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    LOL, that's wrong. ;)

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Honestly! Without exception, EVERY acquaintance I have who drives a VW, says the same thing; "I love the car, when it's not in the shop." That doesn't work for me..... :lemon:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    So you are saying VW's are one of the most unreliable vehicles out there ?

    WOW. They appear to be nice cars, but I'd want a bit more power than they offer. OTOH I can't afford to have a car in the shop all the time either. :(

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    And your point of the pic being ? :confuse:

    Rocky
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    I think one of the biggest problems with domestic carmakers is their total inability to design a decent interior. And it's not a matter of legacy costs or UAW work-rules.

    Below is a picture of a VW GTI (made in Wolfsberg). Being that it's made in Germany, VW has to deal with a auto union far more powerful than our own UAW, yet they can make a pocket rocket with a powerful engine (for it's size and price) and a great interior for about $22-25,000.

    Which is something I don't see in US cars. SUV's... maybe. But GM cars at the same price level... not a frigging chance in h@ll.

    :cry:

    PS: And yes, you can get a Mustang for around the same price... with more power. But can you get a Mustang with as nice an interior, as good of a suspension, with a 6-speed DSG-style transmission, or as good a fuel economy for the same price?

    image
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Heh, accidentally hit the 'post' button before I had even started to type the message.

    :P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    VW is known for their interior fit and finish. Used as best in class over others.

    However per JD Power IQS-4rth from last out of about 40 brands. JD Power vehicle dependiblity Study-4th from last.
    JD Power Apeal-9th from last.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    I say this about VW. They're everywhere here in the Baltimore-Washington area.

    Some days, it's quite likely you'll see more VW's than Mazda's... or for that matter, any domestic car.

    They don't beat out Honda or Toyota, of course.

    :P
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I agree with you on this subject. The German workers get company paid breakfast, get beer served at breaks, man what a life. Oh yeah, they also make good money for the hours they actually work. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I agree VW's do have nice interiors, just look at the VW Passatt. ;)

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    A retired teacher friend of my wife with whom she taught for many years trader her 88 for one the first year they were out--bright red CONVERTIBLE!!!. Hot.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    What does CR say about the VWs. That's what really important here in the discussion! :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    has a 2001.5 Passat that's up over the 100,000 mile mark. It's been pretty reliable, although there was a period around late 2003/early 2004 when it kept leaving him stranded and the dealer couldn't isolate the problem. I think it actually ended up being the Neutral safety switch, or whatever it's modern day equivalent is (whatever the thing is that won't let you start a car in gear), but the dealer seemed to replace everything BUT!

    He hated the car while it was going through that ordeal, but otherwise it's been fine. One thing kinda odd that recently happened though, is that he just changed his rear brakepads. For the first time. But the front ones are still original! I've NEVER had rear brakes last longer than the front.

    The car's a stick shift and he does a lot of highway driving, plus he's a hypermiling fool, so that's probably why his brakes lasted so long.
  • akenatenakenaten Member Posts: 122
    First of all let me say that I like your online name. :D
    Now, I'vce noticed that everyone,especially car magazines,always go into orgasmic raves about VW interiors. But if the car is unreliable I don't care about the interior. At that point it's just a nice place to spend time while you're waiting for the tow truck.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    That's just wrong. :D

    Rocky
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    There have been several VWs in my family. I had 2000 Jetta TDI, that I owned for about a year and put 35k reliable miles. I sold it due to wife getting a Company car and with a 2nd child it was too small.

    My uncle has a '00 Passat GLX that he has about 130k miles on and it going strong. He did have some fuel injection issues around 20k miles that required a tow, once that was resolved under warranty no issues, and at well over 100k miles, the car is still tight as a drum.

    My BIL, had a '00 Jetta GLS 2.0 4cyl that was reliable, but was delivered with unoperable cruise control. IIRC, he did have a sensor go bad that caused a MIL light, but didn't cause any drivability issues. He put 50k miles on it and traded it in on an '03 Passat GLS that he put 55k miles and it had one issue. The neutral safety switch failed around 40k and did require a tow. He traded it in last year on a Honda Pilot.

    I would not hesitate to buy another VW. IMO, the quality of the vehicle out weighs the reliability risk.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    I've heard some bad stories of bad VW dealers. Anyone here have anything to add to that?

    I think VW needs to deal with their reliability issues by issuing a SERIOUSLY better warranty, not just upping the powertrain by an extra year to 5/60K.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    That's really the point I'm trying to make. VW can make a profit even with a union that gets better perks than the UAW.

    And they can do it only because the make a product people want.

    Too many here think that if a company designs and builds a worthless POS, that cost-cutting will somehow make the company profitable.

    It won't.

    Only by actually making a product that the customer wants will there be a profit.

    Of course, those worshippers of the cost-cutting g-d will point out that GM sells more vehicles then any other single manufacturer. While completely ignoring how GM's sales are steadily shrinking.

    Or they'll say that GM can't make a profitable small car... Which makes me think that somehow VW must be a fiscal wizard to be able to sell the new VW Rabbit at a base cost of $14,990. Heck, that's the same price as the new Honda Fit. And let's not forget about the European Polo, priced under the Golf/Rabbit, either.

    I bring up VW because it's a European manufacturer that tries to compete in the ordinary car market (ie - not the luxury market) here in the US, but has all the problems of powerful unions, legacy costs, and high wages. Much like GM, come to think about it. But VW isn't suffering like GM.

    And it's because of desirable, quality products. (Reliability may be in the toilet, but quality isn't)

    :shades:
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    VW's sold here in USA seem to be coming from Mexico. Made in Mexico, and not Germany.
    -Loren
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Jettas and Beetles are made in Mexico. GTI's, Touraeg and Passats are built in Germany. FWIW, I wouldn't buy a Mexican-made VW.

    That being said, Gogogodzilla pretty much nailed it. If you reduce production costs building a product that nobody wants, you're still going to lose money. Cost cutting into oblivion is usually the precursor to closing up shop.
  • allargonallargon Member Posts: 75
    Actually, VW sales have been declining in the US due to perceived reliability issues. European consumers may or may not care about reliability. However, American consumers do.

    VW is the last non-luxury/exotic European auto company not owned by the Big 3 except Mini left with a significant sales presence in the US. Fiat, Renault, Yugo and Citroen all left.

    Daihatsu is a Japanese brand. They left the US. Isuzu and Mitsubishi (Japanese) may be next.

    Hyundai has styling and an incredibly long warranty. However, their sales are still (relatively) lukewarm in the US.

    The bottom line is that Americans want reliability, quality *AND* style in their non-luxury/exotic automobiles. Even GM's management admits they need to get rid of their rat fur upholstery to make it. GM has turned the corner on reliability. Quality (outside of Buick and Cadillac) and styling need to be adjusted next.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Nope, I am a male. And yes I too see girls in Mustangs. I this a bad thing. So let me get this straight. If a female likes a car and buys and drives a car, you will not buy it? Interesting. Strange, but interesting. A V6 or a V8 Mustang is not a bad choice in a car. They both offer value, unless you pay more than you really have to for one. With the rear wheel drive, decent handling, looks, and safety, I am not sure what you don't like about the car. I think most people needing to feel the need to be bad-[non-permissible content removed], as you say, will find some raised truck, or SUV or something to feel more macho. Like a hunk or steel and engine defines the person - get real !

    A car does not have a sex, though I would see some as looking more shapely, and feminine, like the first Camaro, or a Jaguar XKE, or some other hot sports car. Yeah, I would name that car with a gals name. But that is the cars image, and not the occupant. And in harsh reality, a car or truck doesn't actually have a sex, they are made of steel.

    I may not get a Stang though. Kinda a lot of them out there. Maybe something different - I don't know yet. Tiburon maybe ? For the most HP and well let's say practical,it is the Sonata. A V6 , with all that good stuff $19,500. Looks are not bad inside and out, good power, and gas mileage.
    Perhaps too practical, and less sporty - said to be so-so in the handling department. Got to test one. Maybe close-out Altima V6 will sell under $20K - dream on. But once again, these are sedans. Hard to find much in coupes. Well there is the Monte Carlo, for perhaps another year.

    The Sirocco looks pretty hot! In the past, it was a good handling car indeed. Reliable? Probably not. Will I buy one, not too likely, though it really is something special to look at anyway. I think the performance will be there. The reliability is an issue. I would like to see three good years for VW reliability before jumping in. You are right - so far dicey reliability.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    GM closing too :surprise:
    ... OK, they aren't any time soon.

    Ya know, the PT is made in Mexico, as is other cars, and they don't seem to have all the woes of the VW line made there. It will be interesting to see how the reliability of those GTi cars are compared to the rest. May be a fun car to toss around the countryside.

    Speaking of cost cutting, how about those 1980 US cars :sick: Things went from cheap in say 1975 cars, to down right junk on some models. The 1990's were none to stellar for the big three.
    -Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    That is true Loren and a good point. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Jettas and Beetles are made in Mexico. GTI's, Touraeg and Passats are built in Germany. FWIW, I wouldn't buy a Mexican-made VW.

    It's ashame that one of Germany's most famous cars (Beetle) is made in Mexico. :mad: I'm pretty sure one German is rolling in his grave of fire over that. ;) The Jetta seems to be a nice car, but yes it's Mexican made. :sick:

    But yeah I agree Gogogodzilla, did nail it. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    My favorite cars from the 80's are the I-ROC Z-28's and Trans-Am's like the ones that David Hasselhoff drove in Knight Rider, and the one that Sly Stallone drove in Rocky. I think Burt Reynolds, drove the same Trans-Am in Smokey and the Bandit. ;) The Big block 6.6 ? liter 455 V-8 was a cool engine. :D The turning point was the 90's where the new Seville, and Eldorado were alot better and more luxurious cars. Well of course they got the Legendary Northstar engine also. :blush: My 1992 Bonneville SSEi I believe was car of the year in one of the major car magazines. The Bonneville was a big step in the right direction and offered a sport-lux big sedan for not alot of change. The Oldsmobile aurora was a big turning point and was very popular at first, and the Rivera was a nice vehicle, but by this time GM turned away alot of buyers because of the 1980's reputation. :sick: Jack Smith might go down as the worst CEO of a major automobile company of all time. Gosh he was horrible. :cry:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Date posted: 04-28-2006

    PORT MELBOURNE, Australia — The plot thickens.

    Inside Line has learned Chevrolet Camaro concept Lead Exterior Designer Sangyup Lee is on a special one-year assignment with General Motors' Australian subsidiary, Holden.

    Why is this move significant in a business that moves people around the world like pawns on a chessboard?

    First, if it reaches production, the Camaro will be built off of a derivative of the Zeta platform — a new rear-wheel-drive chassis. GM's Holden division is currently spearheading the development of that platform. Rear-wheel-drive vehicles continue to be popular in Australia, and represent a significant share of Holden's product portfolio, so its lead role on Zeta development is logical.

    Second, the recent report from Canberra, Australia confirms that further development work is being done Down Under on future American rear-wheel-drive vehicles.

    Third, Sangyup Lee's involvement in the Camaro concept was significant. We interviewed Sangyup in the days following the Detroit Auto Show, and found he had a clear understanding of the direction on the production car, if approved.

    It doesn't take much imagination to look at the above facts and infer that Sangyup is in Australia working with Holden on the production Camaro set to debut in 2008 as a 2009 model.

    What this means to you: General Motors remains coy about announcing production plans for the Camaro. But if Vegas had odds on whether the Camaro will be built, we'd solidly bet on production.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=114887
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Want a BMW Killa :P
    Pontiac Unleashes Red Bull Solstice GXP Drift
    Date posted: 04-29-2006

    LONG BEACH, Calif. — Pontiac unveiled its next-generation drift vehicle, the Red Bull Solstice GXP Drift, on Thursday.

    The 500-horsepower roadster will be piloted by 2005 Formula Drift champion Rhys Millen and will make its official Formula D drifting debut on June 10 at Soldier Field in Chicago.

    The GXP Drift features a race-modified version of the Solstice GXP turbocharged 2.0-liter Ecotec engine that produces roughly double the horsepower of the street-legal GXP that will go on sale this fall.

    The competition Ecotec engine runs on E85 ethanol-based fuel, uses thick-wall iron cylinder liners, a race-ported cylinder head, tubular stainless steel exhaust headers, a performance camshaft, a unique engine control system and a water-to-air intercooled turbocharger. It was developed by the same GM Racing engineers behind the Ecotec sport compact drag racing motors. The GXP Drift is outfitted with a production six-speed transmission and the production GXP rear differential.

    "With the added power, this new drift vehicle is sure to give me a boost against some very strong competition while fighting for our second drift title," said Millen.

    What this means to you: In other words, this hot little Solstice is The Fast and the Furious: Detroit Drift.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=114913
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Team Hybrid: New System from GM, BMW and DaimlerChrysler Unveiled for 2007
    Date posted: 04-29-2006

    VIENNA, Austria — General Motors and partners BMW and DaimlerChrysler have unveiled a state-of-the-art full hybrid system that integrates electric motors with a fixed-gear transmission.

    The two-mode system, which employs low- and high-speed electric continuously variable transmission (ECVT) modes, should be ready for production in 2007, the partners said.

    The system incorporates four fixed gear ratios in addition to the two ECVT modes, and it can use electric motors during all modes for boosting power and regenerative braking. The partners say the new technology provides superior fuel economy, performance and towing capability.

    The hybrid system is about the same size as a conventional automatic transmission, with about the same overall mechanical content. An electronic control module constantly optimizes the system, matching the most efficient operation point to the power level demanded by the driver.

    Because the system imposes no significant limitation on the size or type of engine, the three partners will be able to mate it to a wide variety of engines with relatively few alterations to each one's powertrain portfolio. That means the hybrid technology also can be used across a broader range of vehicles, including passenger cars and light trucks. Initially, it will be employed in rear- and four-wheel-drive applications, but the partners say they are working on future front-wheel-drive applications as well.

    What this means to you: An unprecedented alliance, teaming GM with BMW and DCX, will be bringing new hybrid vehicles to your doorstep within the next year.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=114918
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Value of Wagoner's compensation package dropped 46 percent as firm lost billions, watched credit rating plunge

    DETROIT -- General Motors Corp. Chairman and Chief Executive Rick Wagoner's 2005 compensation was cut by almost half as the automaker lost billions of dollars and its credit rating was slashed to junk status, according to a proxy statement filed Friday with federal regulators.

    Wagoner received a package worth nearly $5.5 million in 2005, 46 percent lower than the $10 million package he received in 2004.

    Wagoner's salary remained at $2.2 million, unchanged since 2003. He received no bonus for the year, compared to a $2.5 million bonus in 2004. He was granted 400,000 stock options with a current value of $2.8 million. In 2004, his 400,000 stock options had a value of $5.1 million.

    Wagoner also received $345,082 in personal benefits, including $198,520 for security and $95,856 for use of the company aircraft.

    The company's four-member compensation committee said it considered several factors in determining Wagoner's compensation, including the company's $10.6 billion loss in 2005 and ongoing costs for restructuring at GM and Delphi Corp., GM's former parts division. Delphi is looking for financial assistance from GM as it reorganizes in bankruptcy court. Last fall, GM announced a plan to cut 30,000 U.S. hourly jobs and close 12 plants by 2008.

    "We noted Mr. Wagoner's strong direction and steady leadership in systematically and aggressively implementing a plan to restore the corporation and North American operations to profitability and positive cash flow," the committee said in a proxy filing to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

    Other GM executives also saw cuts in their 2005 compensation. Chief Financial Officer John Devine received a package valued at nearly $3.9 million, down from $6.4 million in 2004. Bob Lutz, vice chairman for global product development, received a package worth $3 million, down from $6.5 million the year before. Devine and Lutz also didn't receive bonuses.

    In GM's annual report, also filed Friday with the SEC, Wagoner described 2005 as one of the most difficult years in the automaker's 98-year history.

    "It was the year in which GM's two fundamental weaknesses in the U.S. market were fully exposed: our huge legacy cost burden and our inability to adjust structural costs in line with falling revenue," Wagoner said.

    Wagoner said GM's losses in 2005 were "unsustainable." He also said the recent discovery of accounting errors were "extremely disappointing and embarrassing" and promised GM will be more transparent in its financial reporting.

    On March 1, Wagoner and other senior executives announced they would voluntarily reduce their salaries this year. Wagoner cut his salary by half, while Devine and Lutz cut theirs by 30 percent. GM's board of directors also reduced their compensation by 50 percent, and the company cut its dividend its annual dividend from $2 per share to $1.

    GM's steps were similar to those taken at crosstown rival Ford Motor Co. Chairman and CEO Bill Ford received total compensation of $13.3 million in 2005, or 40 percent less than the previous year, after Ford's North American division lost more than $1 billion.

    GM shares fell 32 cents to close at $22.88 on the New York Stock Exchange.

    ------ On the Net: General Motors Corp., http://www.gm.com

    http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060429/AUTO01/604290350/- 1148
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I want to be CFO or CEO of GM. :blush:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    May meeting will focus on energy, pensions, health care; bailouts are not on the agenda, Bill Ford says.

    DEARBORN -- President Bush, who touched a nerve this year when he told Detroit carmakers to build "relevant" vehicles, will meet with the companies' leaders next month, Ford Chairman and CEO Bill Ford Jr. said Wednesday.

    People involved in planning the meeting, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the high level of the talks, said it would focus on three areas: energy and the environment; costs like pensions and health care premiums that add hundreds of dollars to the price of a Detroit car; and how currency issues affect Japanese automakers.

    The meeting is expected to take place May 18 at the White House. It would be the first time during his presidency that Bush has met collectively with Ford, Rick Wagoner of General Motors Corp. and Thomas LaSorda of Chrysler.

    A White House spokeswoman, Dana Perino, said she could not confirm nor deny that the meeting would take place, adding that Bush's schedule is generally not final that far in advance. Officials at GM and DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group declined to comment.

    Toyota Motor Corp., which ranks fourth in U.S. sales behind Chrysler, and which is considering sites for its eighth North American assembly plant, said it was not invited.

    Bill Ford, who is known for his interest in the environment, said in an interview that he wanted to use the meeting to lobby the government to finance a national delivery system for ethanol, the grain alcohol fuel made from corn. Together, the three companies have sold millions of flexible-fuel vehicles, which can run on gasoline or a gasoline/ethanol mixture.

    GM has introduced a big campaign to promote the use of E85, a mixture of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, blanketing billboards and the sides of buses with the slogan, "Live green, go yellow."

    But Bill Ford said many of the 1.5 million buyers who own Ford's flexible-fuel vehicles either do not know they are able to run on both fuels, or are unable to find ethanol-based fuel that would help lessen the country's dependence on oil.

    "If the goal is to drive ethanol, you have to have it priced attractively," Ford said. That is a problem because the United States has only 600 stations that dispense ethanol-based fuel, versus about 176,000 gasoline stations.

    The discussion over ethanol comes amid rising gasoline prices, which threaten to hurt recovery efforts at Ford and GM. Each lost market share and billions of dollars in North America last year, while Chrysler gained share and made money.

    Together, GM and Ford have announced plans to cut 60,000 jobs and close more than two dozen plants through 2012.

    After Ford announced its cutbacks in January, Bush said the solution to reversing the automakers' problems lay in developing "a product that's relevant." Rather than having the government bail them out, as Congress did in 1979 to save Chrysler from bankruptcy, "I think it's very important that the market should function," Bush added.

    Bob Lutz, the vice chairman of GM who is known for his candor, criticized Bush's comments this month. Speaking in New York, Lutz said: "I'm a lifelong Republican, by the way, but next time around, Hillary, here I come. I'm a protest vote."

    Bill Ford said the discussion of a bailout would not be on the agenda for the meeting with Bush, whose former chief of staff, Andrew Card, served as GM's lobbyist before joining the White House.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060427/AUTO01/604270424/- 1148/AUTO01
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Article from Automotive News.

    If Toyota's past serves as predictor for present for CR, the rule must have gotten lost at the factory for this car!

    "Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality
    Fixes sought for 'problematic vehicle'
    Alan Seider has owned 11 Toyotas since 1982, but his 2006 Avalon likely will be
    his last. He says quality glitches have bedeviled his Toyota sedan, which he
    has driven less than 6,000 miles since he bought it last July. His dealer could
    not solve the car's problems."
    http://e.ccialerts.com/a/tBEVbV7AG-rD9AbRcQ5AHQBmw0c/and149

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Hmmm. Pretty soon cars will look like Hudsons and we'll "step down" into them. I notice a difference going from my 1988 Buick Park Avenue to my girlfriend's LaCrosse. I can comfortably rest my forearm on the driver's door window sill of the Park Ave but it lies a few degrees upward on the LaCrosse and feels odd.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    In defense of Toyota, this man has had 11 Toyotas in the past. One is bad and he's ready to write Toyota off entirely? Reminds me of guys who love their home sports team until they have a bad season and are wearing some other team's logo on their clothes next year. Sounds like he needs a better dealer for one. Toyota dealers act like they're doing you a favor selling you a car.

    Can't read the article so I can't get the details of the story. It prompts for a member login ID and password as it's a pay site.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    I was hoping someone has a subscription and can post salient parts for us.

    >One is bad and he's ready to write off Toyota..

    Isn't that what many have done for 30 years after a bad experience with GM, or Ford, or Chrysler?

    >Favor selling you a car.

    Aint' that the truth. A good friend will be shopping soon. Between the dealer attitude at the local Toyo dealer and the addon charge for SouthEast Franchise or something to up the price without quoting it on the sticker, she's in for a shock when she looks at the Corolla to replace her Civic.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I was thinking the same thing about people's attitudes toward GM and others due to some bad car they had in the past:

    "I've been buying Chevrolets since 1957, but that dang '73 Vega let me down! I'm tranding that POS and buying a 1974 Corolla!"

    Now it's come to haunt Toyota:

    "I've been buying Toyotas since 1974 and that dang '06 Avalon is falling apart! I'm trading that POS for a Hyundai Azera!"

    American buyers are something else. It's like a guy has a wonderful marriage for 30 years and then divorces his wife because she burned the roast last night.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Our friend looking to replace a "poor" 1995 Civic is doing the same thing. In the late 70s she had a GM? car that didn't serve her well so she writes them off forever. But the late 70s foreign brands didn't do well. That part's overlooked.

    She did have a Toyota somewhere later in the 80s/90s that she liked so that halo carries on.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    So, she's ready to write-off Honda because her 11 year-old car is giving her trouble? That would be as dumb as me suddenly writing off Buick because my 18 year-old Park Avenue breaks down. I'd say any car that lasted 11 years has been pretty good to me. Your old dog gets sick and dies of old age. Does that suddenly make all dogs unreliable and a poor choice of a pet?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    But... those Hondas are perfect; we all KNOW the track record and that's was CR bases its future on, for HondaToyota at least. The 95 4 cyl gets good mileage and has had some repairs. Wouldn't start two times this winter. Something about their quirky ignition with distributor!!! not firing. I got it started once. Acted like a 1960 Plymouth in wet weather.

    It's rusting above the rear wheels. I cleaned and waxed it a couple of summers. She's giving it to grandchildren in Maine.

    I'm recommending Malibu 4, Civic, Corolla for her shopping. Any chance of finding a previous model Civic at the dealer cheap? Naaaah.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Geeze! American buyers are unforgiving. They expect a Honda or Toyota to be perfect and are then ready to write them off when something does go wrong. Will they give a domestic a chance? Nah! They're all junk! What makes 'em junk? Some bitter, aged, irrelevant, hippie wannabe radical throwback that sold out and became a yuppie at CR says so! It must be true! Where to next? Hyundai perhaps?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I'm recommending Malibu 4, Civic, Corolla for her shopping.

    If you're going to recommend a Malibu, I'd push for the V-6. Fuel economy is very close to the 4-cyl Malibu, but performance is much better. And I'm guessing that a V-6 'Bu would still come in less than a Civic or Corolla, so it would be a lot of car for the money.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Really starting to drift away from GM styling here.

    As interesting as everything is, let's keep it closer to the topic please. Thanks!
This discussion has been closed.