General Motors discussions

andres3

If that 400 HP turbocharged AWD dream car from SAAB could get over 30 MPG on the highway, I'd buy one too!

rockylee

They do....well kinda... The Saab Aero X

Rocky

P.S. hopefully that engine will see production along with alot of the other gadgets this cool concept has. :shades:

plekto

Saab will end up better off than Volvo after GM get's done with them. The buisness plan looks rock solid from what I'm reading on the net.

Rocky

Exactly my point. Volvo is going to die an ugly death at this rate. GM should have bought both of them and used their superior knowledge to revitalize its smaller cars.

Daewoo - um - kind of not the same thing. Talking to people who own Daewoos in Korea and Japan - they say they are simmilar to the Hyundais of old. Tinny, pathetic excuses for cars that make Kia and Suzuki look like Hondas.

m1miata

Tacoma would be on my list, if I needed a truck. The Dodge of a couple years back looked kinda cool - da boss. Mostly, they are all fine for doing what they do. Interesting how Ford went for styling, then back to rectangles, with flat sides. Or should I say, no interesting.

It is interesting to see the '80's look is back Someone at GM liked the Dodge. Well, in all fairness, kidding aside, it is hard to tell from pick just what it will be like.
- loren

rockylee

Well I'm not sure Volvo outside of the S40 makes a small car pal ?

Saab, basically is getting some Opel flavor for the redesigns.

Rocky

rockylee

Corvette Mania: The 600 HP Blue Devil Is Coming

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=114943

Rocky

P.S. A must read for Corvette fans

rockylee

Ailing auto supplier's shares rise 19% on quarter earnings, its first in years; outlook raised.

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060503/AUTO01/605030398/- 1148

Rocky

chuck1959

But back in the 60's, those little Datsuns were just crap to me. I know the engines ran forever, but they were tinny, the plastics and vinyls here in the southwest would crack the first summer, and within 2 years, you had a pretty much hammered car with a good power train left

Even though I live in the southwest, the plastics and vinyls didn't crack that first summer. Maybe it was due to the fact I didn't keep either one long enough to expirence that. BTW, I traded the 1967 wagon for a 1969 Ford Fairlane 500 wagon due to I needed a larger wagon due to my job. Otherwise I would have kept it.

rockylee

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/images/photos3.31/6721_512.jpg

:shades:

dieselone, now that's nice...... :P

DaRock

aldw

Toyota and co. always uses 50% of parts from the old models in the new ones, GM is not stupid for doing the same, the key thing is ensuring the parts are of excellent quality and performance.

torque_r

Year-to-date sales & market share of major automakers:

1- GM: ----------- 1,278,747 - 7% (23.8 %)<- Market share.

2- Ford: ----------- 937,388 - 4% (17.4 %).

3- Toyota: --------- 764,816 + 7% (14.2 %).

4- DCX: ------------ 752,339 flat (14.0 %).

5- Honda: ---------- 472,968 + 7% (8.8 %).

6- Nissan: --------- 349,947 - 2% (6.5 %).

7- Hyundai: -------- 147,013 + 4% (2.7 %).

See how Toyota surpassed Daimlerchrysler and got real close to the big 2.

m1miata

Gee that Hyundai, which some here have called tinny, seems to be selling well. Interesting that they are high on the scale of reliable cars built. Maybe some should take a second look.

I have no way of knowing if the Hyundai lasts forever. The current data looks promising. When they say that GM is a great car due to some impressive reliability scores of late, one could call that a draw now, couldn't they. Both companies had problems in the past. Oh yeah, one of the two is offering a real warranty. If one chose between the two, it could not statistically be due to reliability data as both are looking on the up and up.

GM is begging you to do the HEAD2HEAD comparison in their ads. Do it! :surprise: I wonder if management at GM actually tried this out before allowing the ads to be posted? Interesting. :shades:

Looks like Toyota has the 6 speed woes. Wonder if those new trannies of Nissan for the Altima '07 will be reliable. And what about those 6 speed GM/Ford transmissions?
When it works, as in good smooth operation and gas mileage, ya gotta love the new stuff. The GM 4 speed seems so old, but since they got it to work in 1988, then perhaps they should stay the course until the 6 speeds work. The 5 speeds are OK I guess. Isn't a 5 speed automatic as costly to build as is the 6 speed? No more complex?
-Loren

logic1

The Bling companies, DCX and Nissan are flat and going backward respectively. Meanwhile, the blands are going up. Is it too soon to say the trend is over?

GM's new vehicles, including the trucks continue to do well. The remodeled VUE in particular is quite a surprise and has Saturn's overall sales up, even with no L series. Wonder how the Green Line will do?

andre1969

but I always heard that Hyundais were kinda the opposite of tinny, at least in more recent years. Maybe not always the most reliable things in the world, but Hyundais seem to have fairly thick sheetmetal, and also tend to be heavy compared to their peers.

m1miata

Yeap, Tiburon, for example has side air bags, and weighs in around 3,ooo#s. The Sonata, while competing with Accord and Camry is listed now as a large car. Standard is the safety equipment such as stability control.

I would say GM is best to let Japan and Korea duke-it-out. Just build interesting looking automobiles, unlike the Asian models in looks. Add some RWD models.
-Loren

andre1969

yeah, that's another thing I used to notice...Hyundais also tended to seem like their economy was a bit low compared to their peers as well, at least until more recent products like the latest Sonata and Azera. I was thinking that it was because they were using outdated technology. You got a low entry price, but becuase the components were a bit outdated, you paid for it in sluggish performance or a bit worse economy than a Toyota or Honda. And I would tend to attribute the weight to the old fashioned American way of building cars...make them strong through bulk, and not necessarily technology.

In contrast, Toyotas and especially Hondas seem to have thinner sheetmetal, possibly making them more prone to parking lot dings and such, but the engineering under that sheetmetal makes up for it when it comes to protection in more substantial crashes.

They've come a long way, though.

logic1

Don't know about the cars. The Santa Fe is becoming a mainstay at Hertz. It is something of a crate, though functions adequately. Gas mileage is nothing to write home about.

rockylee

let's have a head to head Hyundai vs GM. Hyundai makes Tinament appliances that are louder than my Chinese made Vaccum, and as far as the warranty goes you'll be using that warranty often. OTOH you could purchase a real car that has some comfort and guts, and also get a better warranty than what Hyundai offers ya negotiated in your deal. What I'm talking about is a 100K bumper to bumper GM backed warranty. If you re savy enough ya can save alot of money and get the warranty. I've done it even with my GM discount and it didn't cost me a thing out of pocket. So Loren, the warranty now is irelavent :P We both know a Hyundai like all cars will run quite a long time if they are properly maintained. OTOH Hyundai hasn't taken a midwest winter where their's salt. Are those steel panesls double galvanized ? :surprise: If they ain't then that will tell you just how well made the tinament on wheels is made. Buying a GM car also will give some americans that actually care about jobs and supporting an american buisness satisfaction of knowing they didn't send their money to a foreign nation. :shades:

"Ain't I a Stinka" :P

Rocky

m1miata

I have heard that about gas mileage overall not being as good as say the Japan cars. Most seem pretty close though, and the V6 for the price of a 4 banger is not bad. -Loren

m1miata

Take the HEAD2HEAD. The warranty and features are less than the Hyundai and most any other car. Do it - they want you to just do it! The extended warranty at GM is not free. If you negotiate it into the deal, it is still in the price, one way or another.

When you do the comparison, you have to be careful of the model chosen, so they are not apples to oranges. That said, sometimes a car, with a V6 and extras, sells for the same price as a lesser model, with the i4. So I guess one could look at the head to head and just use same price range, figure in the current discount, then see how they stack up. Heck, I have tried it various ways. GM thinks they will win these comparo's. Hey, they are confident, and want you to try them out. Fair enough!
-Loren

lemko

...she got the extended warranty and gap insurance. I believe those were two smart moves. So far there hasn't been any issues with the car and it's been over a year.

rockylee

Well the warranty of the Hyundai isn't free either it's figured into the price of the car also. Hyundai Azera without the big warranty would be a $22K car loaded. They have already anticipated it breaking down. Trust me, I work with a few Hyundai loyalist and they are not going to be repeat buyers. The kia owners gripe of course more than them.

I just at them as they say 4 letter words that would make deadarise blush :P

Rocky

andre1969

the Sonata gets classed as a full-sized car is the shape of the roof. Where they take the headroom measurement is something like 2 inches greater than in the Accord or Camry, so that helps boost its interior measurement. It's no wider inside, though, and IMO the backseat is hampered because of the way the wheel arches cut in.

It's just barely over the threshold into full-sized territory, but it's not ready to compete with Crown Vics and Town Cars just yet! Still, it seems to be a pretty capable car. And fuel economy seems about on par with the Accord and Camry now.

lemko

Maybe in bizzarro world. By my standards it's squarely in the compact field and maybe barely a mid-size if I'm being generous.

andre1969

I think to qualify as a full-sized car, a car should be able to seat three across easily in the back seat. I would say front seat too, but most cars these days have buckets and a console.

Consumer Reports once said that you need at least 57 inches of shoulder room to seat 3 people across comfortably. However, it's also dependent on the contouring of the seats, how much foot room there is under the front seat for rear seat passengers, and the curvature of the side windows.

rockylee

That is being very generous...

Rocky

rockylee

"2" very intellegent moves pal....

Rocky

m1miata

Let me try this again. You pay $19,500 for the Sonata V6, or much more for say the Impala, with less safety features, then have to ADD to the price to acquire the warranty.

I personally do not know if a Hyundai lasts forever or is prone to problems, other than the statistics. And those look promising. As for GM the stats look better. Now those car I have lived with and of those I had none were particularly good in any way and some have multiple problems from day one. Aside from guessing, both are on the comeback trail. Only one of the two seem to be trying to stay on that trail. One of the two has a steady message, it is the warranty, correcting problems ASAP, adding value to cars.

Would I consider say a Monte Carlo? Well, since they have 2005 models which are new, on the lot, I would offer them say a thousand over used car price on those. I inquired on the price during the big fire sale, and it was like $20K out the door price. And they evidently did not sell. This means the resale must really be sucking now, so one may be reluctant to venture in unless keeping the car for at least five or seven years, AND getting even more off. Is the true value then $16K or so???
-Loren

m1miata

I think the 1960's or 70's was the last of the three in back cars. Well there is the mini-vans. For hauling people, the mini-van is the way. Well, unless you like the gas prices on larger SUVs which seat a lot of people - then add them too!

The Hyundai will seat a couple in the back. Not wide enough at the hip for three. I like two seater coupes -- no worries on back seats :P

-Loren

lweiss

I see the latest sales figures and can't understand why the Pontiac Vibe is not selling better. This concept of a "tall but compact" vehicle where you sit upright is very roomy but economical. My family (2 adults, 3 grown kids) rented a Hyundai Matrix (similar to the Toyota Matrix, which is a cousin to the Vibe) in Honduras and it was not that bad, even decent room behind the back seats. And reasonable performance and handling for a compact vehicle. And even with these high fuel costs, I would think that this car (I think 28mpg city or thereabouts) would be a hit, but it sure doesn't look like it.

Thoughts? I just don't get it.

m1miata

So you pay for the extended warranty and the car resale value drops like a rock. If you have the money, as in it doesn't matter, then ya go for it. :shades: You do know the car will be somewhere around 55-60% value in a couple years.

What is gap insurance?
-Loren

rockylee

It has the old stodgy Toyota engine it and it just doesn't give what people expected.

Rocky

m1miata

Matrix resale vs. Vibe may be a reason. The Vibe was always priced higher too. And, if you want a Toyota, I guess most people go to Toyota. That said, the Vibe was or is a little sportier in styling. The first years of Vibe compared to Matrix had the most advantage in style. At that time the car was selling around $1,500 higher though compared to the Matrix.
-Loren

andre1969

is an insurance policy you buy for a something that depreciates quickly like a Buick. (Or a Dodge ) If you're upside-down on your loan and the car gets totaled, it'll pay the difference between what the insurance company gives you for the wreckage and what you still owe on the loan.

m1miata

The Corolla engine inside gets good gas mileage and lasts forever. Not a thrashing GM four banging engine the car is far superior to say the Cobalt in refinement.
-Loren

m1miata

When you buy on time, you are already upside down
-loren

logic1

the car is far superior to say the Cobalt in refinement.

That is a croc. I've driven Corollas and Cobalts. Corolla gets slightly better mileage. The two cars are equally smooth and quiet. The Toy 5 speed auto seems to never be in the right gear when rapid acceleration is required.

A remodeled Vibe/Matrix with a 2.4 litre ecotec would be a fun little car.

In any event, you will get one when the 5 door Saturn Astra shows up in about a year or so.

logic1

You can get a base Malibu with V6 about the same as a CamCord 4 and be very close with gas mileage.

To Andre's point above, I believe Hyundai gas mileage is better on the Sonata than some of the older designs.

rockylee

Good point.

Rocky

jae5

Looks as though both are getting wake-up calls. Delphi's looking into dumping the "squeeze, blood from a turnip" contracts GM is famous for doing. But GM is countering, "Ok, you're asking to dump them contracts. Fine. We're not offering any relief anymore. Oh, and by the way, we have more contracts we can squeeze you with."

Delphi's waking up to the fact that GM was, is, and will continue to bend them over. GM is waking up that Delphi can't be an "good 'ol boys network" buddy for the time being.

Man, this would make a good TV show.

ace35

i have also driven both cobalt and corolla and they are not equally refined powerplants. The Cobalts 2.2L engine is very noisy and almost sounds like the previous pushrod 2.2L that gm used in the cavalier. Although a little smoother than that engine is still just as loud. I cant believe this is the best gm can do with a 4 cyl. engine.
Now the corolla on the other hand, while smaller in displacement than the cobalt, this engine is very refined for a 4, while it does get a little noisy, but its in the upper rev range say 5 to 6 thousand rpms. Very smooth and peppy engine. Also this engine is tied to a 4 speed auto, not the 5 speed auto, and this trans. is very smooth and shifts smartly.

rockylee

Well tht lil' 4 cylinder your bashing is on the Wards Top Ten list.

Rocky

andre1969

has an '03 Corolla and honestly I don't think it's anything to rave about in the refinement department. It's loud, rough, and coarse-sounding. At least to my ear it is. But then I'm just used to the sound of larger engines so that might be part of it.

Still, somebody please tell me that the Corolla 4-cyl is NOT the epitome of 4-cylinder refinement. Because if it is, the small car will be forever doomed to the stigma it's had to carry since the dawn of time.

Honestly, most Toyota, and Nissan engines sound kinda rough to me. Is it because they use a timing chain, whereas Hondas tend to use a belt? Maybe timing chain noise is just worse in little engines than it is in big ones?

logic1

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

As I said, I've driven both. The Corolla is the Hertz compact rental of the moment. Cobalt is somewhat common at Avis, though not near so much as the Cavalier was.

The 2.2 ecotec is quiet and smooth. It has a good torque curve that propels the car nicely.

I've read here where Toy fans had said the Corolla had a 5 speed auto. I see on the Toy site it has 4 speed. I disagree with your assertion the Corolla shifts well. Whenever I go to accelerate in the car, there seems to be a lag. Could be the engine does not have enough torque.

dieselone

Well tht lil' 4 cylinder your bashing is on the Wards Top Ten list.

That would be the 2.0L supercharged version, slightly different beast. I've read many good things about it.

OTOH, I've yet read anything positive on the refinement of the Ecotec 2.4 in Solstice/Sky. Every article I've read mentions it's slow to rev and buzzy at high rpm. But I haven't driven one, so I don't have first hand knowledge.

logic1

I'll agree there.

The Honda 4 in my friend's Accord is very quiet and smooth. His Accord has no pick up however. Of course it is saddled with an automatic and the Accord is a heavy car to boot.

When I had my L200 with the manual, the 2.2 litre was able to propel the late Saturn mid-size fairly well.

logic1

That would be the 2.0L supercharged version, slightly different beast. I've read many good things about it.

Yeah, if you could get a Cobalt SS Supercharged without the whale tail (Hey GM! Look at torquer's numbers: the Kings of Bling, Nissan and DCX have sinking sales.), that would be a sweet little machine.

A Saturn Sky Redline may be the perfect Kappa if the Saturn dealers can resist marking it up over $28k

rockylee

I'm just glad Dad got to check the GM box on his retirement. Delphi is going to be a foreign company in 10 years with maybe a few plants here in the U.S.

They are quickly losing my support and faith.

Rocky

dieselone

A Saturn Sky Redline may be the perfect Kappa if the Saturn dealers can resist marking it up over $28k

Can Saturn dealers actually do that with their "no haggle" pricing?

I'm sure they could always add some stupid aftermarket crap to justify the asking price.

logic1

Can Saturn dealers actually do that with their "no haggle" pricing?

There have been rumors they are. Not sure why GM cannot stop them.

I'm sure they could always add some stupid aftermarket crap to justify the asking price.

This could be what is happening. On a Sky fan forum, a sales person rather proudly stated that all Sky's his shop sells will come with a $2.7k alarm system. He argued, among other things, this is necessary because in their experience, people whose vehicles are stolen stop making payments. As if insurance were a foreign concept to him/her.