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  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    But if you are buying next year, I expect the forth coming CTS to put up a strong fight.

    GM will probably opt out and put the 3.8 Generation 50 in the next Cadillac CTS :sick:

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Cone on Rock. the 3800 is just about gone. :)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    >I'm not sure what ya meant by that pal ?

    Oh - just that I appreciate the rebound of Cadillac, while I think Pontiac has slipped into the ditch, personally. Become irrelevant. That division should be dropped, and the Solstice sold by Saturn. IMO, of course.

    If SAAB were managed by Cadillac it may become better than Volvo - but if the Pontiac division handles it, look for a SAAB minivan in your showroom soon. :P
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The way things are going 62' they will bring back the 4.9 I had in my 88' Cadillac and slap a VVT kit on it and call it modern. :mad:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Hell they might even blow the dust off the Quad 4 as a base model and the premium model will get the 1980's version Chevy Cheyenne 350, and 2 exploding gas tanks :mad:

    Rocky
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    It will need at least at least 300 horses, if GM doesn't want the CTS to be clobbered by the G35 and whatever Hyundai calls their RWD cruiser.

    Hyundai is going to have to pull off one heck of a marketing coupe to sell a car over 30k in any sort of numbers. Lexi, Infiniti and Acura spent years paying dues before they hit the big time.

    As for the G35, I appear to recall thread after thread saying how the Infinit was going to best the CTS and so much blah, blah, blah.

    Even without a coupe, a problem that the spy photos suggest may be rectified, the G35 never outsold the CTS.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I might buy a 3 or 4 hundred horse Hyundai. Hell i might just wait for a Chin-E-Class Mercedes Benz to come out and then I can have a real car for cash :mad: Better yet when I browsing the Websites I saw a Rolls Royce made in China that looked sharp. I might just buy one of them for cash as I dig under the couch cushions for the right amount. Screw GM those backstabbers. :mad:

    Rocky
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Absolute silliness.

    GM is advancing the 3.6. It will continue making the LS engines.

    The Sigma platform was designed for the OHV high output engines. The Vette engine, while clearly fun, is not a perfect match for the sigma.

    I expect that GM has tweaked the sigma 1.5 platform that will base the next Gen CTS. Not only will accomodate the Z06 engine, it will significantly outperform it.

    In my opinion, it makes a lot more sense for GM to spend resources making the next Gen CTS perfect than tweaking the existing CTS-V when you already have a fire breather on the market as it is.

    Nothing in the linked blog says there will not be a 2nd Generation CTS-V. Just that the current CTS-V will not be upgraded.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    logic1, They take the car on 60 minutes like a teaser and then suddenly cancel the project out from underneath me. I was honestly going to Buy a Buick Velite Roadster and fell in love with it the first day I saw it. I followed it on the net for over a year, and it was going to be the car that was going to bring me back to GM. Canceled. OTOH they find enough money to build junkers like the Aztek, Cobalt, Malibu, Century, FWD Impala, Trailblazer, Vibe, Torrent, Equinox, SSR, Malibu Maxx, Aveo, All current Saturns, HHR, Saabs current line-up, So that leaves Buick and Cadillac the Vette, GEEEEZE I'm sick of it. The UAW doesn't deserve to have to serve under a incompetent leadership with no vision. The CTS debuted in 2000' and hasn't recieved one update worth mentioning. :mad:

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Rock, those are all high volume vehicles. the Velite would have been a low volume, high cost player. There would have been no profit in it. would have been a great Buick halo car but just to many other prjects neede dthe cash. BUT, there is still hope for a RWD Buick ;)

    Are you saying the new CTS is canceled that was shown on TV? I doubt it.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Are you sure?

    First, re-read the linked Blog. The CTS will be updated. And the update will come next year.

    I did not watch the 60 Minutes Program. Every report I saw about the 60 minutes segment however (and I have seen dozens, both professional and internet buffs) talked about the forth coming next generation blog.

    Months ago there were reports GM was going to up the ante with the CTS-V, adding a larger engine and stronger suspension. That is what the linked blog says will get canceled.

    And frankly, that makes sense. The next generation CTS is coming out. You want to concentrate on nailing the launch.

    Then, much as BMW does with the M Series, about a year later Caddy will come out with a new CTS-V based on the new platform.

    Respectfully, you are getting the report all wrong. I am not sure what else I can do for you. Other than to repeat: GM is not going up date the existing CTS-V. It will update the CTS. There will be a 2nd generation CTS-V.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I know that logic, I follow ya pal. I'm mad that they are canceling the Super V with the 7.0 V-8 out of the Z-06. I wanted to buy this car, not the wimpy 3.6 a.k.a. a scaled down 3.8 :mad:

    :cry:
    Rocky
    :sick:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    How do you know they will not just put the same stuff in the new one? It looks to me like they brought ahead the CTS and therefore the CTS-V on the old one would have only been around a year. Might as well just put it in the new on sooner.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    62' They are moving ahead with the new CTS, and leaving the V behind for about 6 months. Now don't get me wrong ya might beable to buy one sometime between January-April of 2007' but that is about a year away. :sick:

    Rocky
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    You just need a VW GTI.

    Fast and with a luxurious interior.

    Plus... VW will actually mail to you a 'Fast'.

    :P
  • akenatenakenaten Member Posts: 122
    bringing back the CIMMARRON? I think it's high time GM took a low end car,say the Cobalt, and made it a Cadillac. All together now: thank you Roger Smith!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I'll pass since I really need 4 doors zilla, Thanx anyways. :surprise: Also 200 hp isn't sufficient and I don't wanna get smoked by a soccer mom in her Milan :sick:

    I still don't understand this Fast deal. I saw it on the VW website and your right it looks like a gremilin. :) Is the Gremelin the object that VW owners blame and say 4-letter words at while they wait in the shop ? :P Seriously explain it to me. :blush: I'll let ya drive the GTI. Give me a Phaeton W-12 and i'll be okay. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I do like the VW Passatt and it's okay.... It needs more "hair" under the hood. ;)

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM just announced their dividend at $.25 per share. At about $20 that is 5% a year.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    This is pretty much what BMW does with the M Series. First make the more main line model, then set the engineers loose on the enthusiast version.

    GM layoffs cut white collar - engineers among others - to the bone. All available remaining engineers are probably busy sweating last minute details on the main line CTS. One hopes they are getting it right.

    Afterwards, they can get busy on the next V. One hopes the Corvette Z06 crew have a big honking engine waiting for them.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    They have guts at Hyundai, but I too think that they are too soon on trying to sell the top line cars. Even the Azera may be too soon. Or perhaps not. I could be wrong, and Azera is timely. Personally I think the best value, as well as crash test, goes to Sonata.

    Will be interesting to see how the top line stuff sells. And the new sports car to come, with RWD and a sharp body like a Maserati will be here this year or next. Not sure if it will be the Tiburon or a replacement with a new name.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The 3.6 V6 is plenty HP for snappy acceleration on the CTS. Unless you need a CTS for the track, the CTS-V V8 HP is overkill. The V6 will do 0- Speeding ticket in a very short time.
    :D
    -Loren
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Arguably, the Vette V8 has too much torque for the sigma platform. Most testers report problems launching it as well as they might because they keep losing the wheels.

    I reckon putting the super Z06 engine in the V would have required a lot of engineering time to make it work.

    GM engineers are probably addressing the frame issues noted by the testers.

    That said, I agree with you. The 3.6 should be more than enough fun.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Unless you need the CTS to be a dragster, the V6 is plenty enough power. Lighter engine up front should make for a better balance car overall. I don't think most Cadillac owners are challenging people at the stop lights. Ya know, a used Camaro SS may be good for doing that. You can work it over and have great fun with the modifications. On a curvy road, the fun is in the handling. If you can not drive fast with 250HP in the country, 400HP will be quite useless. Maybe driving lessons would help. Personally, getting too crazy on country roads, or freeways makes little sense. I would like to see a speed governor on some of those idiots passing, then cutting me off on the freeways at high speed. Give them the speed governor of 55 MPH :P

    -Loren
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    On a curvy road, the fun is in the handling. If you can not drive fast with 250HP in the country, 400HP will be quite useless.

    All of that excess HP is like those folks that drive with huge audio systems with hundreds of watts and big speakers and make a lot of stupid noise that aggravates adjacent motorists or those in homes nearby.

    Balance in a vehicle is what majority of people want and is why cars like Accord and Camry succeed. GM should not waste time and effort in marketing cars such as V8 Impala SS that have very limited interest. Sensible people looking at an Impala type car will pick a V6.
  • akenatenakenaten Member Posts: 122
    Cars like the V8 Impala,Acura NSX,Ford GT whatever,Dodge Viper,Mistubishi EVO, to name just a few are "halo" cars and can bring in business to their respective brands. While a buyer may not really be looking for a "sensible" car(since you seem to think you know what buyers want)the Impala (V8) might draw them to a V6 or a Malibu or a Corvette etc...
    YOu might try getting a little more knowledge about the auto industry. You may be one of those sensible,CR worshipping buyers but that doesn't mean everybody else is that boring. :P
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Ummm, I don't think so. GM has always had a Corvette, and still there sales are on the skids. I don't think many buyers of a Cobalt came in looking for that Corvette image or even to view a Vette. Now, if you are Mercedes, and have a super car, perhaps some may purchase a lesser one, even a base Mercedes due to image. Any Mercedes is still seen as class. Well sort of. Yes, BMW super cars may boost the image. Now back to most car lines such as the Honda. It makes absolutely nothing to 99.9% of people looking for an Accord, that they also build the S2000.

    It is probably good thing for those Mustangs to have gained power to 300HP, since the old Camaro SS had 310HP. Yes, Mustang needs a higher HP along with the V6 210HP car. As for the thought of a Cadillac owner racing the streets in a 400HP CTS with a stick is somewhat of a stretch. May happen a couple times a year. I have never seen but one CTS on a lot at a time. I don't think the typical Cadillac owner needs to pretend he has a fire breathing track car. If he did, he does have the excellent CTS-V real track car to look up to. I saw the car at Laguna Seca and it was pretty cool. Do they need these in the showroom to bump sales of the V6, most likely not.

    I did see the Ford GT for 165K in the showroom of the local car dealer. Hey, great looking car. Conversation piece, or a car for the very-very rich. Now what? The Mustang did not look any better or worse to me that day.

    That is an interesting list of cars mentioned. The NSX is an overpriced car which is best bought used, as it held the same body style for so long. The Impala V8 is too much power for FWD without having torque steering and it has DOD, which may or may not work in the long run. The Dodge Viper is something to look at, yet rated a very poor buy. The Corvette is more practical, and has one more races too. Mitsubishi EVO is irrelevant since the dealerships are packing up and closing. It certainly did zip for sales.

    Porsche may need a halo car or cars, but does Honda, Toyota and most car companies really need these super cars - I think not.

    What is truly boring is not building cars which are in a good price range, well balanced, with steering feel, and enough gas mileage to live with everyday on the road, that have some cool looking design to them. Mustang, an old formula for success, is once again selling. Why? It is a fun and sporty RWD car which is affordable. Yes, there are the Shelby, Roushe, and Saleen models, but they were selling out Stangs long before those models were ever built. Something like 70% of Mustangs over the years have been sold with a V6.
    -Loren
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Porsche may need a halo car or cars, but does Honda, Toyota and most car companies really need these super cars - I think not.

    Datsun managed to breakthrough the US market in large part because of the original 240Z. Similarly, key to Nissan's recent turnaround was the return of the Z car. Previously, Mazda managed to avoid leaving the US market altogether with the success of the first generation RX-7. And the GTI was critical to keeping VW in the US after its debacles in Pennsylvania.

    Sporty cars do matter, but the vanilla cars being sold also have to be good, otherwise the halo won't be enough. Toyota has opted for a somewhat different strategy, namely by creating a halo badge (Lexus), while drifting away from its most sporty offering (Supra), which seems to have worked, at least for now.

    The sporty cars not only help with image, but also become real world test beds for new technology that eventually ends up in more mundane cars, improving the breed and the company's competitiveness. They are vital to the lineup, but they won't be directly responsible for driving the profits.
  • irnmdnirnmdn Member Posts: 245
    Datsun managed to breakthrough the US market in large part because of the original 240Z. Similarly, key to Nissan's recent turnaround was the return of the Z car

    Key to Nissan's turnaround was following up Z with intersting mainstream cars like Altima, Murano etc.
    OTOH, you can't get people to buy Malibu and Cobalt just
    because the same company also made Z06s.
    End of the day, only thing that matters is the product itself.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    No problems yet, Rocky, and excellent fuel economy on 87 Regular to boot! I highly recommend the LaCrosse to any buyers in that segment. It certainly is far more attractive than that pig-nosed Camry that all the lemmings are buying.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The strike against Delphi had a vote scheduled yesterday by the UAW.

    Discussion of 07/08/09 Cadillac models may be as relevant as discussions of 1960 Packard models.

    This is the end game: GM has money to survive a strike or introduce new vehicles. It can't do both.

    Perhaps the desirable lines like Cadillac, Corvette and the truck/SUV family will survive as part of another company.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060503/ap_on_bi_ge/delphi_unions_4
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    If Delphi strikes you will see a huge sucking sound as their business goes to other suppliers. Delphi is already prepared to move much of their product overseas. they have already told GM what they do not want to produce anymore and GM is already giving that business to others. Issue will be if there is time to make the sourcing changes. BUT, there are enough suppliers out there hungry for business to stay in business to do what ever it takes to get it.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Corvette appears to be selling at a rate of around 35,000 annually, more than the 1999-2000 model year rate. While GM/Chevy has had a Corvette since the early 50's (1953 to be precise), there was no Corvette before WWII that I am aware of.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    Actually, the "halo cars" can turn people off- me included. It seems the message from GM to me is get an Impala V8,Lucerne with a Northstar, Cadillac CTS-V, Corvette, or how about a nice new 5,600 pound Chevy Tahoe? Not good enough- just wait for our new Chevy Camaro to blow the doors off everything!!!

    And with high fuel prices and big traffic, the message from Toyota (hybrid Camry) and Honda (the new Honda Fit)- seems much more relevant to the market today. At least I feel the Asian companies are trying to fill my needs in a Vehicle. GM may be trying, but I am not getting the message very clearly.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I don't think GM can move fast enough to survive if the UAW strikes Delphi.

    It is not the work of a few days to get other suppliers up and running.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    While a buyer may not really be looking for a "sensible" car(since you seem to think you know what buyers want)the Impala (V8) might draw them to a V6 or a Malibu or a Corvette etc...

    Cars like the V8 Impala,Acura NSX,Ford GT whatever,Dodge Viper,Mistubishi EVO,to name just a few are "halo" cars and can bring in business to their respective brands.
    ----------------------------------------

    That is very interesting. Wonder if there is even one instance ever where a person went to the Chevy dealer to look at a 2006 "Impala V8" and bought a Corvette instead.

    Do so-called halo cars really bring people into showrooms to look at these and then end up actually buy the mundane? Anyone ever heard of someone who said, "I am going to the Chevy dealer to look over and try to get a test drive in a Corvette" and then buy a Malibu? Any studies and data on this by marketers?

    Chevy dealers might have more shoppers/lookers to stop by and test drive the Malibu if it had decent styling.

    On Acura NSX as halo car to draw in people supposedly - Have had a couple of Acuras over last 6 years and don't recall "ever" seeing an NSX on showroom floor of large dealership over that time.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well yes, those dates seem correct. And Corvettes are selling. Your point is what? Did someone say there was a Corvette pre- 1953?

    The Corvette sales have had no effect of Chevy car sales as a whole. It is such a different class of car, and is not always even available at car dealerships. Their allotment seems to be first in trucks and suvs, then cars, then top line Corvettes.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The Datsun 510, an economy BMW with paper thin tin, was the power behind sales for Nissan. The little trucks were very popular too. The sports car 1600 (Fairlady in Japan) did not hurt the image and damaged MG sales no doubt. The 1600 and 510 was out long before the Z. The Z did help the image I guess. But at least in California, Datsuns were already very popular, as was Toyotas. Subarus were a joke in the earliest form, as was the first Hondas. Ah, but they got good gas mileage, if no one ran over you on the road. Tin cans.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yes, and actually it was the Altima which came to the rescue of Nissan, along with better marketing and lots of help from Renault.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    Key to Nissan's turnaround was following up Z with interesting mainstream cars like Altima, Murano etc.

    Yes, you need the volume cars to also be good, because those will pull in the profits. The benefit of the Z is that it builds credibility for the Nissan badge, which gives the Altima and Murano buyer more comfort that their cars will also have badge qualities that make their cars worth buying.

    OTOH, you can't get people to buy Malibu and Cobalt just because the same company also made Z06s.

    Agreed. It's not enough to have a great sporty car, the core products also have to be appealing. The point here is that a good core offering should be more interesting and appealing because of the aura projected by the sexier offering.

    End of the day, only thing that matters is the product itself.

    No, absolutely not true. Every automaker needs to be conscious of its brand building -- when selling branded products such as cars, the value of the badge is critical. A strong badge helps to increase customer loyalty, makes it easier to conquer buyers from weaker badges, and maintains higher prices.

    BMW is a fantastic brand. In the US, Toyota is an outstanding brand. Both are extremely valuable, and need to be nurtured.

    Oldsmobile was a bad brand, and needed to be killed off. I will go further and argue that Chevy has become a bad, toxic brand, one so bad that it probably reduces sales, rather than helps them, when used for your run-of-the-mill passenger car. (It's a good one for trucks, and probably has no impact on the Corvette, but it almost dooms the Malibu right out of the gate.) This has been one critical mistake by GM -- it neglected its brands so badly, that it has gotten to a point that its badges are actually harmful to the company. A far cry from what was true earlier in the century, when companies such as GM and Proctor & Gamble practically invented brand-based marketing.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    that Nissan/Datsun was actually the major Japanese player here in the US, at least until the later 80's when the Camry and Accord started picking up steam. Believe it or not, in 1985, only one Japanese brand was in the top ten selling cars. It was the Nissan Sentra. Ford had two: the Tempo and Escort. GM practically owned the market back then, having the rest. They were, in no particular order...Cavalier, Celebrity, Caprice, Cutlass Ciera, Cutlass Supreme, Delta 88, Century.

    Kinda sad when you think of it, that all those names have been retired since then. Except for the Sentra. The domestics really do need to learn to stop tarnishing their names.

    I'd also agree that the '02 Altima was the driving force behind Nissan's resurgence. Possibly that and their 3.5/4.0 V-6, which is a good engine and widely available across the whole lineup.
  • mopowahmopowah Member Posts: 68
    I was thinking about this the other day actually. One of the big difference between Honda/Toyota and Ford/GM is that Honda/Toyota have been able to grow value in their models (Civic, Accord & Corolla, Camry) whereas GM and Ford have probably started and disposed of 3x that many nameplates in the last 20 years. They don't seem to be...willing(?) able(?) to keep a nameplate and try and improve upon it. The Ford Escort was not bad little car but they just let it fizzle then killed it off? They had a nice replacement with the Focus but why not just keep the name and build upon the name recognition. GM could have done something similar with the Cavalier but arguably, it was probably a bit more tarnished than the Escort.

    In contrast, way back in the early 80's the Honda Accord was an underpowered, ugly piece of tin that was an afterthough in most peoples mind but Honda kept the nameplate and kept growing the car and improving upon it until it became one of the best cars out there in the early 90's. Same with Toyota.

    It's too late for the nameplates they've killed off already but the domestics need to make some long-term commitments to the new names and build them until they are instantly recognizable as a "Ford" or a "Chevy" and looked upon as a viable alternative to the imports among your average "Joe Carshopper.":
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    I think you miss the point of the sporty car in the line ups, and what provides the halo.

    It's nice to have image leaders at high prices such as the NSX, but for halo cars to be most effective, they also need to be somewhat affordable -- not bargain-basement, but within reach of a middle-class consumer. Hence, the RX-7, Z cars, GTI, the earlier Supras, Prelude, etc.

    The Japanese makers made some critical errors during the early 90's when they moved the price points of their sporty coupes so high relative to the market that they helped to drive themselves out of that market. Instead of using them to reach out to consumers, they sought to compete with the Europeans when they didn't yet have the brand equity to do so. That's why Nissan needed to reinvent the Z, which included shedding some of its pretensions in favor of a lower price point. If there is going to be another Supra, you can expect that some of the costly whiz-bang gadgets will be forsaken in order to keep the price within reach.

    If you look at the badges that have failed in the US (Peugeot, Renault, FIAT, Daihatsu, etc.), they all have something in common: Each of them lacked both good mainstream products and an image leading car. Some of them had one or the other, but none of them had both. Both segments are critical to success, at least during the growth stage.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    If UAW leaders call the strike they asked members to vote on yesterday, Delphi will be out of business or foreign owned in 10 months, not 10 years.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Do you think UAW leaders will call a Delphi strike if the members give them the authority?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Oh you mean the car with the resale value? The one which tops the list in car reviews? That Camry? That one is not a better buy than a LaCrosse? :surprise: I didn't know that. In two years I bet your LaCrosse is even a better buy for the next owner. ;) Half off is not all that bad.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    They may not be thinking past the next quarterly stock report.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Oh perhaps I did-- oops! If you are 53 yrs. old, or younger, they always did, or it would seem that way :blush:

    The hottest car going right now has to be the Aston Martin line of cars. Not exactly MPG leaders though :(

    Still love them C5 Corvettes.

    -Loren
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Your post said: "GM has always had a Corvette...".
    GM has been in business since the early 1900's - before 1910.
    My point is that your post is inaccurate.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I would like a Prelude or Celica in a RWD for around $21K or in a FWD for up to $20K -maybe. For a FWD vehicle, they were too costly. Hyundai has a great value Tiburon, which I will at least consider. The RX-7 for $21K or less would be cool, but it will never again be like the inexpensive first year model, I guess. Oh yeah, don't need the oil burning and heavy gas consuming rotary engine - no thanks. The Z, is too coupe'd up. Something about those doors and really tiny windows make is confining, and when the seat is up for me, I can no longer easily enter the car. I hope the tire eating problems are gone on that car. Looks wise the previous Z was much better looking too.
    Hyundai will making a new RWD sports car. This should make Ford a little nervous. Oh yeah, GM too. That is by the time the Camaro is good to go, the Hyundai will have a super little coupe out with 22nd Century stylin' :D
    -Loren
This discussion has been closed.