Honda Civic Si Sedan

deekz

Just a heads-up...I live in Southern California and a local dealer is advertising $20,300 for the SI sedan. I would imagine you could perhaps do a little better with some haggling. There are several sedan Si's on the lots out here. Maybe reality has hit some dealers who were asking sticker and others asking for ridiculous markups. These aren't Ferrari's after all. I am not dissing this car...I was once a happy owner of a 1998-99 Si. The only thing I did not like was that I had to drive it like it was stolen to get past the lady in the minivan or truck while living in suburban Texas at the time. The high rev VTEC really shines and rewards away from traffic in windy roads and open highways.

nagatahawk

I come from an '92 MR2,'05 BMW 325i manual,and i just test drove the Speed3 and the Sedan SI.

The Sedan SI was a very pleasant car to drive as was the Speed3. The fit and finish on both cars were as good as it can get. the speed3 looked very racy just sitting there. and it had stump pulling torque down low. The Speed3 was by far the faster of the two, although it had some torque steer somtimes coming out of a low speed street corner at low throttle input.

My choice is the Honda Civic Sedan SI. It is a very well balanced to make it a nice a daily driver. Ride, steering and ergonomics were the top notch. Now I all I have to do is choose a color and make the deal.

vincep

Plus, the Si will get about twice the MPG of the 'speed3.

tseosh

"Plus, the Si will get about twice the MPG of the 'speed3."

I counted out the Subaru WRX and STi, Mitsubishi Evo, and Mazdaspeeds for several reasons. MPG was a big one- also, crash test results and safety equipment, resale vale, and overall quality. To get decent mpg in a sports sedan, one needs to move up to the base model BMW and Lexus... for $10k more than the Si.

The Civic Si is a bargain for around $20k- the price and gas mileage make it a decent economy car, too.

Another factor with the Honda is that the Hondacare warranty is available for 7 years/120K miles for only about $800. That is a heck of a deal; plus it is transferable to help with resale value.

deekz

I had a 02 wrx...while not a gas efficient car for it's size due to all-wheel drive parasitic loss and turbo, I still managed to average 19-20 on premium. I also had a 98-99 si and if I recall correctly, I averaged 20-23 depending on how often I got it revving far into the vtec zone. anyhow, 2x the mileage is not quite right

To tseoh: you are right, the resale on the civic si was phenomenal. I was able to trade-in the SI 1.5 years after I bought it at a loss of about $1500. This is amazing since I had been rear ended (but repaired of course) and it had 15-20k miles on it.

I have not tested the new SI, but believe you cannot lose as long as you like it. Have fun deciding.

aaronr121

I'm replying to a previous poster. He said a turbo version is in the works.

aaronr121

Really? $200 over invoice? Checking there inventory tonight, I found quite a few SI sedans and coupes on the lot.
Plus they are offering a 2.9 apr on 07 civics.
I'm going to call tomorrow. I really, really want a habernero red one badly.
Last weekend I did inquire and the said they'd sell at $700 over invoice for a 4 door, and MSRP for a coupe.

ito

I paid $20,289 before Tax and Tags for a Galaxy Gray sedan si. Only dealer installed options were wheel locks and splash guards. I opted for the 4.9% and a $160.61 payment for 5yrs. The payments would have been $280.00 at 2.9% for 3yrs. I put down $13,000. I have no idea what the invoice was even though she said I paid invoice. I hate when they always try to convince you that you made a great deal and say we made $0 on you... I was dealing with 4 dealers all from their internet sales.

rphillips2

I am in the market for a fun 4-door sedan and the Civic SI is high on my list as well as a used 3 series. Do you really like the SI so much that you would trade a 3-series for one? I thought BMW was the ultimate driver's car.

punkr77

Went to Honda and Toyota/Scion dealers this weekend with the wife. She's in the market for a new car thanks to a hick running a stopsign.

We were looking at 5 door hatchbacks/crossovers since she wanted something with lots of cargo room. At the Honda dealer, the sharp looks of the new civics really hooked her. Since I used to have a 95 Civic EX and loved it, I told her to test drive the SI sedan.

Both of us were floored by it. She didn't want to get out of it. I test drove it and was amazed at how far Civics have come. Was fun to drive (more fun than my 99 SVT Cobra), handled like a slot car, great clutch/tranny, and had a nice ride. I took it down a rode that is heck on the kidney's in my car (railroad tracks, potholes, etc) and it wasn't bad at all. Great seats, big trunk. Engine and exhaust notes that get the blood pumping. Looks like it might have a future home with us.

The only real competition in my mind is the Mazdaspeed 3 which is next on our test drive list. The WRX is a few grand more, and is another hot one, but my wife hates the looks.

Better than a used 3 series, probably not. Then again the Civic Si will likely be cheaper to service and last longer (to get a Bimmer at this price it'll already have half it's useful life gone).

My wife summed it up best. "All the other cars we tested felt like just a car. That one felt like something special"

targettuning

a new Si sedan tell me where the window sticker says it is assembled, Japan? Also while looking please tell me if the engine/transmission are also assembled in Japan. Why do I want to know? I am involved in an ongoing dispute with another. My position is that only the Si sedan/coupe is still imported and all other "run-of-the-mill" 2006/07 Civics sold in the US or Canada are assembled in either Ohio or Canada. thanks.

cz75

Alliston, Ontario, Canuckistan.

shrivastava

I know their shouldn`t be any comparison as far as the specs go 197 hp vs 306 hp (Infiniti g35 2007 sedan) 0r 300 (BMW 335i sedan). But let me tell you I have been driving a 1995 Nissan Altima for the last 3-4 years and recently drove a Mazdaspeed 6. I realized that I would want a powerful new sedan sometime soon.

Infiniti G35 and BMW 335 both got my attention immediately. Haven`t test driven any, but when i came to know about the new Civic SI sedan, I thought there might be something in there for me.

Coming to the point, I want to know about the driving pleasure in the Civic SI, the power, acceleration, braking. Other powerful cars also don`t give a good mileage and the SI stands out there.

Is the SI sedan best of both the worlds? And what are the major concerns from a fast driver`s point of view.

tseosh

At least the transmission is made in Japan. I believe the Hybrid Civic is the only model made exclusively in Japan. Interestingly, that model comes out with a perfect owner survey score in the 2007 Consumer Reports car issue. In several areas related to build quality, the North American made Civics are rated lower by owners.

eldaino

Well, although the si is sort of a performance bargain, it does not really play in the same field as though guys. But you can still get a heck of a lot of fun out of it, it handles great and its fairly inexpensive.

When compared to the other sports sedans you mentioned, i think that the civic comes short in the rush off the line. IF you are unfamiliar with hondas engine tuning philosophy, this may be a little off putting: they have very little torque but have a very nice top end power band.

Most peopole associate a 'fast' car with being quick off the line. The civic is peppy, but don't expect to be killing any g35's or anything.

The handling is phenomenal though. One of the best front drivers out there.

Again you would be comparing it to two rear wheel drive sedans which is again unfair. The civic is cheap compared to those cars, but you can't expect the same exact performance from it either.

piason

Most people who buy a sports sadan would like an automatic option. I would buy the SI sadan if Honda offered a auto.

shrivastava

Thanks for the reply eldaino.

I guess civic SI would be better to drive in snow, due to the front wheel drive.

Which car would you compare it with as far as off the line acceleration is concerned? Audi A4 2.0 T (200 hp) ..the horse powers are comparable. But as you mentioned the Honda engines..Is SI sedan slower than A4 off the line?

eldaino

that would be doable if the honda didnt have such a particularly tuned engine for the si.

Most sport sedans are packing v6's so having an auto is no real penalty; there is enough torque under there to get things going.

The k20 that resides in the si is a different matter. Its power delivery comes very close to redline (which is a whooping 8000k) therefore an automatic would be ill suited.

Granted many small compacts (i.e. the regular civic ex) especially hondas, have a peak horsepower and torque output before redline...but not all of them have 8000rpm redlines either!

I wouldn't mind an si sedan with an auto...but the engine would need to be bigger and it would have to at least be a sport auto with paddle shifters.

eldaino

Which car would you compare it with as far as off the line acceleration is concerned? Audi A4 2.0 T (200 hp) ..the horse powers are comparable. But as you mentioned the Honda engines..Is SI sedan slower than A4 off the line?

It would defintely feel like it, but then again an a4 is a different animal;

the 0-60 time of the si is comparable to the gti, which also uses the vw 2.0t engine. Identical horspower yes, but were talking 207lbs of torque as opposed to just 139.

Edmunds and car and driver compared the 2 and the acceleration times were only slighty different (i.e. gti:6.7 si:6.8. I don't think those are the ACTUAL figures but you get my point.)

Why the 'almost the same' times? Becasue the vw (and audis alike) weigh alot; about 300lbs more than the si. Whereas the gti would rush of the line, that needle would run up to 7800rpms on the si,get you into the optimal power band, and you are already catching up. You just gotta like shifting!

A torque rich engine, therefore, may 'feel' faster, but in reality may not be all that much quicker. (i.e. my 2007 vw rabbit has 170 lbs of torque as opposed to my old 06 civics 128. It feels quicker off the line, but is only fractionally quicker to 60.)

aaronr121

Thanks for that bit of information Ito. I ordered a Consumer Reports price report the other day to try and get the bottom line. That's not even a thousand off the bottom the show, after dealer holdback. But, I can't see getting the vehicle much cheaper than what you got it for.
I figure we'd try now while financing rates are reasonable, if we can't get a deal around that range, I guess we will just wait until summer, and we get back from vacation.

Just curious, did you send the prices you were quoted back and forth, until you found the price you wanted?

After living with the car for a few weeks, how do you like it? Also, how has your gas milage been? Most reports I've seen puts it at around a 26-27 mpg range for combined driving.

shrivastava

Cool. thanks for the info. SO Honda engines, generally are low on torque.

keithcl

Internet price of $600 over invoice from Conicelli Honda, their price is same as another internet price quote from another local Honda dealer.

Received a good trade in value for my Civic according to used car trade-in price from Edmunds, and KBB, the whole transaction completed in 2.5 hrs from the time I walked in and by the time I drove out with the new car.

Honda is current running 2.9% APR for 36 months, and 4.9% APR for 37-60 months term.

aaronr121

I talked to Conicelli over the phone today... the gave a price right off the bat of 20,682. I don't suppose that's to bad. But I think it could be better.
From the Consumer Reports price report I ordered, they say start negotiating at 19,437 (dealer invoice of $20,076 - dealer holdback of $639). Any advice? Should I just call/walk in and start that low? My goal is $20,200-300 or lower.
I've been watching the local dealer inventory of SI models, and it just seems to be building up. Even though it does get good gas milage, I think the premium requirment is gonna scare a lot of people off.
My opinion, it's the only thing I don't like about the car (premiumi fuel). But with a 13.2 gallon tank, I'll be filling up at the 10 gallon mark, so it should cost $2 more a fill up. In the grand scheme of things, 2 dollars isn't a great loss.

rik4

since you are in pennsyltucky like me. check out piazza honda. they have or had it on the web site for 21,385.00 i looked the www.readinghonda.com one.

aaronr121

Actually dealt with them, the reading and limerick dealerships are close to me. they did email an offer of 550 off... just not as good as conicelli. though i will try them again.

a10thunder

I reported in a previous post that I got my Si sedan for $200 above invoice at Conicelli. You can definitely talk them down from the initial offer. I did everything over the phone. Just let them know that if they agree to the price you want, you'll be there that day to take the car. Also, since I bought my car in January, Si sedans have continued to pile up on the dealer lots. You should be able to at least get the car at invoice.

Going from regular gas to premium could give people a price shock. I did when I got my WRX a while back. But it's the best way to squeeze more performance out of the engine and achieve decent fuel economy.

aaronr121

Thanks Thunder. The price you got is my target, if I get that, I'm there.
I suppose, since I can't do the deal until Saturday, I'll leave things hang 'till then. Find some more models in the network, so i have a few more dealers to haggle with. Like you said, the cars are just pilling up on the lots.
Could it be the first and last year of an SI in 4 door form?

eldaino

i think that honda is just not marketing it very well; honda enthusiasts know about it, but the general public seems to have been overlooked. Then factor in the dorks who are like: it should only be a 2 door coupe! when in fact we have had a coupe and hatchback and it started as a hot hatch. Not to mention cars like the acura integra gsr, another great sporty honda 4 door.

mdta

I really like and want to own this car! the only problem is it is manual. Face it, there are times you stuck in heavy traffic, there are times your significant one needs to use your car.

Honda will increase the customer base for this car significantly, if they add the auto/manual gear box that they have in Prelude or TSX, to this car.

rangerblue

I've read a few articles here and there about cars that supposedly require Premium fuel. It said something like this. The car may run better but you may not notice any difference when using Premium over Regular gasoline. Basically, you can achieve peak performance (I'm guessing HP) with Premium, whereas if you used Regular, you would lose a few ponies. It also said as long as your car does not Knock, it should be ok to use Regular gasoline in a car that requests Premium. That does make sense to me since higher Octane is really for Knock depression. Just wanted to know if anyone has tried this or heard of real life testimonies to this.

Thanks.

ezpilze

I don't ever understand why people always believe that you have to stick with premium. I've used regular by accident a few times on my parents odyssey and an 02 bimmer, both state that you should use premium, but both cars are still running fine.

Premium just tends to make the car feel lighter, and if you're driving a si, honda prob doesnt want you complaining about the car being slow or what not. But on the other hand regular is much dirtier, and oil filters and engine parts will need cleaning a bit more often, or atleast thats wht ive experienced.

punkr77

I think the majority of "premium only" cars won't be hurt. The newer (last 10-15 years) will adjust the timing to keep the car from knocking. When it does, you'll loose some power. It won't be a huge difference, kind of like the difference between AC on/off.

I think the change also hurts the mileage a bit too.

aaronr121

Well... with the knock sensors if you do run regular instead of premium, the computer shouod back off the timing. It's possible you could still experience detonation, and less performance. Detonation can be very bad for a engine, especially over long term duration.

Would I recomend buying the car and using regular? Nope. In a pinch, sure.

I did the calculations and for me driving 20k a year and figuring 26-27 mpg average, and premium charge of .20, it's about $150 extra per year to fuel the car. Not exactly a huge difference. Looks like that works out to the equivelent of driving a car that gets 24 mpg, instead of 26 mpg.

punkr77

I think you lose a few MPG when the engine adjusts the timing, so you'd likely only lose a little performance but not really see much if any savings.

I've never tried any regular in my premium only Mustang Cobra, at least knowingly. I know some gas stations have been known to put regular in their premium tanks or cut the premium with regular, so maybe I have and didn't know it.

tayl0rd

Any (non-forced induction) car can get away with regular even though premium is recommended. The thing is, performance usually suffers a lot and mileage suffers tremendously. I have a car that premium is recommended but will run on regular. I tried regular (actually mid-grade) a few times and had all kinds of knocking, the performance was terrible, and I got about 60 FEWER miles on a full tank! :surprise: I won't do that anymore.

eldaino

the prelude and the tsx have larger displacement engines which make having an auot no bigge. But the si's power delivery requires you to rev it very high, thus making the auto a very bad choice for this particular engine. imagine an auto than runs up to 8000rpms all the time. Not fun if you are buying an auto stick for the convinience of it.

This cars true fan base has no desire for an auto anyway.

nj2pa2nc

we have owned a total of 3 cars that premium gas was recommended. a 1991 mazda mx-6 GT (turbo) a 1998 eagle talon(turbo awd) and now a 06 acura tsx. we have used regular gas with no problems. When we sold the mazda it has 250,000 miles and the talon had 100,000 miles. The performance was excellant, no knocking and good gas mileage. In fact when my husband drove the mazda from PA to NC when we moved there a driver of a mustang wanted to race. (i think his feelings were hurt the old mazda beat him) since we had alot of luck using regular we will continue. almost bought the civic si sedan but did not want to wait so bought the tsx (6 spd)

rangerblue

Thanks everyone for replying. Well not everyone replied, but you get what I mean. All points well taken. I actually used to use Premium fuel on a (don't laugh) Mitsubishi Tredia. For those that don't know what that is, it's the furthest thing from the Mitsu 3000GT. It's more like a Mirage or Toyota Tercel/Corolla. I think all I really did was waste money on gas. But Premium was only $1.20 those days. But funny how the difference in price between Premium and Regular was still ~20 cents, just like it is now with Premium going for $2.90. I guess Premium was really at a premium in those days based on the cost percentage between Reg and Pre. I was actually thinking about alternating between Regular and Premium during fillups if I bought a Premium gas car. But as someone else suggested, in the end you probably don't save that much a year. I just hate to buy Premium now if it truly is not necessary. I guess the gas cost impact would be much greater if it were based on driving an Infiniti G35.

nj2pa2nc

alternating between regular and premium gas is not a good idea IMO. the electronic fuel injection computer will have difficulty setting up because you will be changing the octane each time. It would be better trying to stick with one grade. I think that's when knocking occurs. That is why we always used or use regular (not mid or high) and it has worked for us.

aaronr121

Yeah, with the SI and from what I hear owners have been pulling in for gas milage (24-28 combined driving), it's not a huge sacrafice buying premium.

It would be different if you were only pulling 18 mpg on premuim and filling a 18-20 gallon fuel tank. Then it's costly. And really, it isn't the fact that you are running premuim, it's the fact the vehicle only gets 18 mpg. Premium is just the salt in the wound.

But the little motor in these cars have a very high compression raito (11:1)! I'd think based on the fact the 1.8, in a EX, has a CR of 10.5:1 (and it uses regular) maybe mid-grade would work?

But, everybody I told about this car and it's premium fuel requirement think I'm nuts for wanting to buy it. I just see a lot of the public passing over this car just becuase of the fuel requirments and the fact it's only in a manual.

I'd be more concerned if the car had run flats. Run flats are just the ultimate waste of money, in my opinion.

punkr77

Having to get premium fuel hasn't ever really bothered me too much. 20 cents difference in price at todays gallon price isn't a huge difference. Heck, if you're getting 24 mpg and putting in premium, you're not paying any more at the pump than someone getting 23 mpg on regular.

As far as manuals, I love them. There's any number of American cars I've passed on because they're auto only. When I went with the wife to check out the Fit, the salesman said it would be really difficult to get one with a manual. He said only a few percent of the American allotment had manuals. He said most of the manuals get sent to Europe.

a10thunder

I don't understand why people buy cars that require premium fuel and then fill them up with regular. First of all, you pay more for a car that requires premium gas over regular. The Civic Si is about $2000 more than an EX. If you do some rough calculations (20,000 miles/year, 25 mpg, $2.50/gal), you'll see that you save about $160/year. That means, you'll have to drive the Si 12.5 years to make up the price difference you paid for the car. If you don't want to pay for premium fuel, just buy a Civic EX.

Second of all, during those 12.5 years, you will not be able to fully enjoy the car because your engine is not preforming at its fullest potential. In fact, the Si may not perform as well as an EX because the ignition timing is severely retarded by the computer.

It really irks me that people would pay a premium for a higher-performance engine, but decide to save a couple bucks on gasoline. The premium you pay for the car more than outweighs the savings you make on gas. This is very similar to the hybrid argument.

aaronr121

Exactly $160 isn't that much spread over the year. It works out to $3.08 a week. It's not that much. But neighbors and friends all just shake their heads when you mention that fact. But most of them drive SUVs or trucks that don't even hit 20 mpg. The spend $2500 a year in gas, if they get 20 mpg for 20k a year of driving. At 26mpg, buying premium at 2.70 a gallon costs $2000 for 20k worth of driving. A $500 savings. They have to spend $9.61 extra every week.

nj2pa2nc

I guess we are those people that irk you. Our 1991 mazda MX-6 GT (turbo) and our 1998 eagle talon tsi-awd (turbo) both recommended (NOT required) premium gas. we used regular. when we sold the mazda it had 250,000 miles on it with the original clutch, transmission, turbo, engine. In fact the performance on that car was super- We could out run alot of other cars. the driver of a brand new mustang GT had their feeling hurt. It had a hard time keeping up to the old mazda. He told us he was amazed when we met up with him at a gas station. when we sold our talon it had almost 100,000 miles with all the original equipment (it was too small) we want 6speed. the ex does not have it. we use regular gas not for the so-called savings but because our cars run fine with it. JUST MY OPINION. we use regular gas on our acura and are getting 34-35mpg. Our friend uses premium and gets 29-30mpg. we basically do the same kind of driving. use whatever works for you

tseosh

I recently bought a 2007 Civic SI sedan. The "throttle hanging" defect is bad enough to make me regret my purchase. This is also sometimes called "rev hang" and refers to the engine holding its rpm level for 1.5-2 seconds after the driver takes her or his foot off the gas pedal. This was supposedly fixed on the 2007 model, but as I found out once the break-in period ended and I drove at higher rpms- it's still pretty bad!

This means that not only does the driver need to pause for two seconds between shifts waiting for the rpms to drop, but there is also a two second delay before the car begins to slow when letting off the throttle- a very dangerous situation. (Maybe the safety issue will force Honda to address this???)

Other than being annoying, this seems like it would cause quite a bit of stress on the driveline, especially the clutch. I don't think the clutch will last long if it has to do the job of slowing down the engine to match the gearing with each shift. I just checked with a local dealer and was told there is no bulletin/update.

tayl0rd

It's not a "defect," it's an emissions feature. Annoying, yes, but normal nonetheless. Also, there is no need for you to wait between shifts. Having the revs hang between shifts is not much different from double-clutching back in the old days. It's actually better for you synchros and probably prolongs the life of the transmission. Fret not.

But if it bothers you that much, don't they have handheld Honda tuners in the aftermarket that can take care of that? (I'm not a big Honda follower/fan. I just have more than a passing interest in the Si sedan; might buy one.)

a10thunder

Yes, the dreaded "rev hang" issue persists on the '07 Si. I bought my Si sedan 2 months ago. Initially, it bothered me a lot, but it doesn't anymore. You definitely don't have wait until the rev drops before you shift. I can shift very smoothly with this "feature." Also, like the previous poster said, "rev hang" will not damage the drivetrain and may even cause less stress. The only thing that still bothers me is that if I want to slow down, I can't expect to just let off the gas pedal and see the speedo drop. The car will maintain speed for a second or so before slowing down.

I am quite used to "rev hang" because my WRX had the same issue. It's a combination of emissions and Drive-By-Wire that's causing the problem. From what I've read, the '06s had even worse "rev hang." I can't imagine it being any worse.

Did you testdrive the Si before you bought it? I noticed the "rev hang" during my testdrive and decided that I could live with it. Despite the issue, this is the best engine-transmission combination I have ever driven. Sure the Si isn't the fastest or prettiest car in this price range, but it's a sheer joy to drive. I look forward to my commute everyday.

tseosh

Hey, thanks to both posters for the feedback on the rev hang issue. My main concerns are the rev hang on upshifts (really jolts the drivetrain if you don't wait for revs to drop)and the engine not slowing the car down when I let off the gas.

Other than that, the Si is a great package for the money. Super engine (apart from you-know-what) and transmission, excellent handling, good interior room (my kids couldn't fit in the back of an IS 250), excellent safety/crash ratings, and nice standard equipment- sun roof, vsc, side curtain air bags, decent sound system, etc. I just hope that Honda eventually issues a fix for the rev hang.

FWIW, I also shopped the BMW 325, Infiniti G35, and IS 250. I wanted a refined sports sedan with better than average quality, top safety features/ crash test results (kids), reliability, and resale value. The G35's mpg eliminated it, and I just couldn't justify the $10k + difference between the Si and the other two cars.

eldaino

congrats on your purchase! Glad to see you're enjoying the si. I have read of some tuners being able to rectify the rev hang that the drive by wire causes, but they have not been able to completely rid themselves of it. Go to temple of vtec and you could get some good tips!

hondaguy82

Does the Si only take premium gas?