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Comments
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2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Edit: this was at the time the 55 mph was imposed...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Can we discuss any technical item / improvement that would improve FE or is it limited to technique involving a compromise of some sort ?
If there is such a limitation, how should I put borders to the meaning of "trade off" as it looks like every one has his/her own idea of what a trade off would be and where the threshold would be set.
I would see several technical steps to improve FE. All have their pros and cons
1) Lighter body construction
2) Better aerodynamics
3) more efficient powertrain (electric, diesel and Hybrids being in the loop, Direct injection, turbocharging, variable compression, smaller displacement, ..)
4) smaller /thinner tires
5) Photovoltaics integrated on the roof
6) More efficient electronics (LED lights throughout, electric Air /con and auxillaries..)
Just the advances in tire performance alone, would probably make vehicles much safer and much higher speeds.
The only thing bringing back the "double nickel" national speed limit would do is to put more money into the municipality coffers....more money....our money, to waste via fines.
BTW....I just filled up last night. While prices aren't back to where they were last year, I found a station with gas at $3.66/gal.
I grew up in a residential neigborhood near edge of a big city with single family homes on "side" streets. These streets ran north/south, east/west in a grid a half-mile square. The main, or through streets, were the perimeter of the grid.
As a kid, I saw many accidents at intersections nearby. Stupidly, most drivers did not slow down at the intersections of the side streets and speed limit was not posted and I would guess they mostly went 30. From time-to-time, somebody would go signficantly above that, 45-50, and we would wonder if the speeder would crash beyond passing our house. Eventually, maybe I was early 20's, the city put up stop signs at all side-street intersections for north-south traffic. That helped a lot.
Think of today with drivers preoccupied with cell phones and text messaging. They are more likely to obey a prominent stop sign on side-street intersections, then to be able to focus attention on cross-wise traffic at an uncontrolled side street intersection.
Comes down to $$ - Hyundais often have very low prices after all the rebates/discounts. Friend bought a Tiburon for his teenage son, but sold it because of the high insurance (2 door+ teenage boy = $$$$$$) :surprise:
If you see (or want) a change in design or engineering that you feel will help FE but will have either a negative effect elsewhere, will cause the average consumer to accept less than they have now, or will notably change the way we view private transportation, then you're cleared for takeoff.
Take those 6 points you made and start noting those pros and cons of each
kcram - Pickups Host
They should do it anyway - that piece of the design work will come in handy when they are ready to put plug-ins on the street, as the solar cell Priuses will be able to charge without plugging in sometimes as well.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The trucking industry successfully lobbied for a 'bump' to 55 - gearing on the trucks of the time actually allowed better mpg at 55 vs. 50.
Cheers!
Paul
I'm pretty average
I already drive a Saturn L series.
I really don't want to accept less.
I'm not sure there is anything less. :P
I understand that current cristalline PV cells offer about 15% efficiency. If the usable surface on top of a hatchback (or a station Wagon) is around 2 SQM, then for a 1000W/SQM solar radiation, we would expect a max power of 300W ( 0,4 HP)
This would be just enough to help power the A/C under a full sun, which is not that bad. If not used, it could help power other devices (electric steering, water pump, Radio, lights...) The saving would be equivalent to driving with the A/C switched off.
The main problem woud be the price. A 300W setup would cost at least 1200 USD (4 USD/ Watt) for the solar panel alone and I don't include integration, R &D and costs incurred with bodywork. This means that if this option is offered for less than 2000 USD RRP, Toyota would loose money on this.
The second problem would be the added top weight. In order to be time-resistant, the cells must be embedded in laminated glass. Given the large surface needed, I speculate that it may represent at least 50% more top weight than a large electric roof.
The third problem is that efficiency depends on weather conditions. During night or cloudy weather, there is no production and solar panels are just a dead weight.
There are a few added side benefits of such a setup. 300W generated electrical mower means 300W less heat radiated to the car. Still good to save when under a strong summer sun. Morover, leaving the car in a sunny parking lot means recharging the battery or keeping the inside cool even if the car is locked. Let us imagine this is a plug-in hybrid. 10 hours charge at top sun power means 3KWh or maybe 20 cents at grid prices. Not much but still good to take.
Some prototypes of PV are being developed and would increase efficiency past the 40% mark. If the front boot and the back were also covered, we could maybe increase the coverage to 3 SQM for a 1.2 KW (1.6 HP) power. Could shave a few mpg more from a hybrid for instance. A few more years will be needed before we see such technolgies finalized.
I agree that narrow tires will help gain mileage but I believe they will hold the road better under rainy conditions. Wider tires are more sensitive to aqua-planing (not sure if I wrote it right) or loosing grip from a certain speed threshold and going over a certain water thickness on the road. My grand mother lost control of her vehicle following such an occurence.
Narrow tires also come with a longer life. I happened to change some tires on my AMI8 (135X 15) , not because they were bald but because they were simply too old.
Narrow tires also produce less road noise and better suspension comfort thanks to lighter wheels.
narrow tires are also cheaper to buy, hence driving down maintenance costs.
It is true that braking performance will decrease, all things being equal. But I think heavy weight is as important a problem in this respect.
I've read about the millions of dollars of lost productivity. I'm assuming they're calculating how much less we will be be at work because we will be spending more time on the road getting there. Taking more time to get to work doesn't mean I would only put in 7.9 hours each day. It just means I would have to leave 3 minutes earlier. An 8 hour shift is still 8 hours.
Then there's the argument about how clogged our highways will be with all the extra cars on the road and the huge traffic jams. Heck, if that's the case people wouldn't be driving 55 mph anyway so where's the beef?
I guess I'm one of the ones who wouldn't be inconvenienced by a lower speed limit. I usually pedal to work and I've only had my bicycle over 55 mph once in my life and I'm not likely to descend a mountain pass each day during my commute (yeah, it was FUN
I suppose I'm the exact opposite. I don't see how the 55 MPH speed limit would do any good.
2. Discretionary dollars currently lost/wasted due to operating vehicles beyond perak efficiency with respect to fuel economy would be spent in other segments of the economy.
3. Enhanced/healthier investment portfolios. There has ben a direct correlation between the stock market spiraling downward as oil prices have gone up. With lower speed limits the reverse is the most probable outcome.
4. Since oil is a very elastic product pricewise, a 10% reduction in demand, about 2B barrels/day would likely mean price reductions of at least 20%, more likely 30%.
Both for gas and heating oil.
5. Fewer accients/injuries many of which are eventually paid for by the Feds when the money runs out from the family.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
First off, I doubt that 55 mph is necessarily the most efficient speed for most modern cars. Cars have changed a lot since 1974.
All the benefits of slower speeds are available to people voluntarily, without a law. I think that to pass a speed limit for reasons other than safety will result in a higher percentage of people disobeying the law, and will breed disrespect for the law.
This is a stupid idea from the 1970s -- a decade I call the stupid decade -- and it should remain there.
So because of the poor driving practice of some, everybody should have to go for the fuel-wasting / initiative-cutting stop sign ? How about some enforcement against this? Driving a car while not being able to maintain a minimum level of vigilance is not far from DUI.
A shame the licence is so easily given. If we could shave off the road the 1-2% which pose a threat to others, I guess we could get significant better casualties figures
55 mph will make the big 3 get lazy in their car development again and loose more grip against foreign competitors. The Ultra marginal oil imports savings may not offset this. I see a potential for the opposite.
>2. Discretionary dollars currently lost/wasted due to operating vehicles beyond perak efficiency with respect to fuel economy would be spent in other segments of the economy.
How about time lost by people operating the cars ? The saved fuel may not be enough to pay for that.
> 3. Enhanced/healthier investment portfolios.
The govt may satisfy itself with this cheap and easy-to-enact law at the expense of key alternative infrastructure and technologies investments. The fuel saving, already marginal for the US market, will not impact global market as opposed to structural measures that could save 25% or more. The oil price will continue to climb. I maintain my own $250 USD per barrel prediction before 2011
> 4. Since oil is a very elastic product pricewise, a 10% reduction in demand, about 2B barrels/day would likely mean price reductions of at least 20%, more likely 30%
Where did you read that ?
I understand otherwise. A 20% increase of price would only lower world demand by 1% or less. Look at the barrel prices. they doubled in 12 months. Did world demand dropped by 50%?
How the ridiculously small contribution of 55 mph would do anything ?
> 5. Fewer accients/injuries many of which are eventually paid for by the Feds when the money runs out from the family.
Despite the 55mph laws, US did not record a subsequent and measurable drop in fatalities. Poor driving practices are to blame and it seems many even on this forum, don't even consider changing this.
Slow SL and low gas prices really did a lot of harm to US. Higher SL and gas tax could do hell a lot of good if people are willing to move on.
Make it a license revoking offense to drive and either... eat, text-message, shave, read a newspaper, put on makeup, etc, etc, etc.
That would most likely save more lives than anything else.
(That... and require ducks to be glued onto everyone's forehead... for safety, of course.)
:P
I would give up being able to drive 350 miles in my commuter car for 100 in a EV. I realize the car will be slower and might even be heavier but it would be worth it to me. In fact I would be willing to buy a hybrid once they make a plug in. I am not interested in giving up anything for a car like the Smart. Even if it is lighter 40 to 45 MPG just isn't acceptable for a car so small.
Now wait a minute. The 70's gave us disco.
And how is that different than with the current speed limits? Some people don't like the speed limits no matter what they are set at!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Don't under estimate people's ability to act stupidly.
In the mid-19th century, horses struck and killed pedestrians in NYC more often than car accidents kill people today.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1. The biggest issue? The most widely violated law since prohibition and that
breeds contempt for the law in general.
2. Traffic deaths DECLINED with the elimination of the 55 MPH speed limit
3. Cars today are more economical than the cars in existence with the 55 MPH
limit - I had a '73 Pontiac with 389 V8 and 2bbl carb that got 14 mpg at 55. My
Accord V6 with VCM - 30 at 75 this weekend.
55 is not the issue - MPG is - that and the cost of fuel - too much gas is wasted doing unnecessary things. If it expensive enough, that alone will reccult in conservation and elimination of needless waste..
True, but the lower you set the speed limit, the more people will violate it. When most people are violating a law, it becomes unenforceable on several levels, and worse than useless.
thank you
Driving while holding a mobile phone is a traffic offence in many European countries. In France, it would cost the offender 2 points out of 12 on the licence and at least a 90 Euro (1450 USD) fine.
I guess people have to make a choice between driving or another.
I drove one EV, a Citroen Saxo Electric in vacations. Wanted to experience it. It was pretty stressful in fact because the electric capacity counter 's needle was continuously falling. I really feared to be left stranded and there was only one charging station around. Top speed was maybe 45 mph and acceleration was rather limited.
Going 100% electric still requires heavy trades-off, but on a commuting trip done regulary, it would certainly pay off.
>Even if it is lighter 40 to 45 MPG just isn't acceptable for a car so small
If the Smart is sold in the US, I don't understand why Toyota does not introduce its Agyo. It is a very successful econobox in Europe and it 1.0 3 cylinder gas engine is able to return close to 50 mpg. Price is of course cheaper than smart.
Granted it is made in Europe, so would be too expensive to import, but making it locally would be a fair deal.
>I have seen motorcycles hydroplane on wet streets so narrow tires will not necessary help that much.
I meant by hydroplaning that the tires actually lift off from the road and "fly" over the layer of water. I lost grip a few times on the wet while driving a motorcycle, but it was just the tire(s) slipping when braking or taking a curve.
Thanks a lot! Now I get to spend the rest of the evening trying to purge the memory of Rick Dees singing "Disco Duck" standing next to a duck muppet.
Ugh!
That sounds about like the interstate bypass that loops around our city. The posted speed limit is 60 but you'd better be driving something big if you drive that slow because someone will run you over.
I think 70 is about the average.
"Some" is the keyword. They should still have traffic enforcement after them. But the %-age of people who really stand out as flagrant speeders is probably <1%.
The SL's should be set for what the majority of people are driving. If you go out on a 65mph interstate in decent weather, and 90-95 people out of 100 people go by between 70-75 mph, then the "natural SL" of that road should be set at 75mph.
I believe that's most of our positions here, if we need to choose a single SL!
I'd like to see a more sophisticated SL system which could be electronically programmed into your CPU, based on your driver qualification (encoded on the license barcode) and the type of vehicle you have. A 16-year old kid driving a MV or SUV might get a 55mph SL. A 40 year old with race-school training and a Nissan GT-R might get a 110-mph SL (clear interstate road and weather) ?
You're on the interstate, and 5 60MPH people are passing a 55MPH person, and behind them are an 80MPH, a 90MPH and 100MPH driver. That's just a mess, and a mess of road rage waiting to happen.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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And with the way "laws" are "enforced", one would be more of a criminal for getting mad and laying on the horn behind this person than for actually creating the accident-waiting-to-happen situation. This was around lunchtime, so there were no revenue enforcers around, of course.
For longer trips I have a small Pontiac with a 2.0 that gets about 26 in town and 28 on the road.
I happened to be watching a special report on Fox news the other night and several small companies have started up converting small cars like my Pontiac to full electric. They will go a bit faster and it will cost about 10K to convert. They also have a range of about 70 miles. That would be perfect for my needs. Not for everyone I understand. But what impresses me even more is the plug in conversions they have been offering for Honda and Toyota hybrids. They are telling us they can get 75 to 100 MPG while the batteries are fully charged and normal hybrid mileage after the gas engine has to help run the car. My question is and has been why doesn't Honda and Toyota offer this option if it can be had after market?
Lastly I have placed an offer on the table for a old honda Insight. They get about the best mileage of any hybrid I could get today. So I am also willing to give up a back seat for better mileage. However as I see it many of my fellow consumers are not at this point yet and until they do get to that point the earlier post about what consumers expect from their vehicles holds true.
What I am not willing to give up yet is the ability to tow my travel trailer on trips to other parts of our country. So I am pulling for more diesel options until the day comes when I can no longer travel in my free time.
How about a 100-year old? I am from a very large family and have an uncle who will turn 101 this October. He is incredibly "with it" and up-to-date. He has a restricted license and gets to drive just locally in his neighborhood, not on interstates or similar. Just reporting the facts, I did not issue/renew the license.
Agree as previous post that great variation in speed likely to cause crashes/accidents.
Variation in anything, whether manufacturing processes, or traffic flow should always be tried to be minimized by whatever means.
Gadgetology for speed limits just too complicated. Get to the lowest common denominator. Jeff Gordon of NASCAR should drive close to same speed on interstate as do 80-year old golden seniors. People need to allow more time for their trips/commutes so that they don't have the need to speed.
People still need to be responsible for driving at a speed that is safe for conditions. I proposed a system that looks at your driving history and rewards those who have not caused accident - showing they are responsible and can be expected to continue to behave responsible, to choose their reasonable SL.
Currently people are given that similar responsibility when weather conditions worsen. The speed limit sign may say 65mph, but you the individual is expected to change your speed based on what's reasonable for conditions. Ex. If the speed limit is 65mph, and it's foggy and you can't see the distance it takes you to brake that distance, then you'd be driving irresponsibly and unreasonably.
But that was a minor point. My main point is that the SL's should be set so that the vast majority of driver's speeds today, should be legal.
Let's not forget that we should also include vehicle type. Why not set the lowest common denominator at the 80-year old in a 40 ft. RV?
OK. Semis, big trucks, medium trucks, buses, vehicles with trailers, RVs and similar stay in right lane maybe 5-10 lower than left lane. Kind of what we have today, except when semi gets in left lane to pass semi in right lane going 0.50 miles per hour less.
As opposed to the current "My kid is an honor student but I'm still a moron."
Because the aftermarket companies don't have to warrant the battery pack for 100K miles or more as Toyota and Honda do. As a result, the aftermarketeers design their controllers to drain the batteries more deeply than T & H will allow them to do from the factory.
With deeper draining and wider duty cycles, the batteries don't last as long, hence no plug-in Prius and HCH as yet. Toyota has said it is almost ready to offer plug-in Priuses, but they have been trying to get Li-Ion battery packs to work as they are much more efficient for this type of duty cycle. Problem is, they get really hot, and Toyota doesn't want the laptop problem burning down Priuses on the road. They may yet go ahead with plug-in Priuses with NiMH battery packs next year, just like they have now.
Just like vchiu, I would like to see Toyota bring the Aygo (and the iQ, which model they have announced they WILL bring over) here to the States. These are very fuel-efficient small cars, and not ultra-slow like some of the micro-engined cars of Europe are by our standards.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Now that I am retired and much older, and on a fixed income I doubt if I would risk much to get there in a hurry.
I believe there were more than 3% of the drivers actually doing the speed limit, more like 15% where we lived, the California HP was pretty much on the ball.
farout
Now that I am retired and much older, and on a fixed income I doubt if I would risk much to get there in a hurry.
I believe there were more than 3% of the drivers actually doing the speed limit, more like 15% where we lived, the California HP was pretty much on the ball.
farout
I call cow manure. Toyota had a EV Rav4 that the city of New York leased a fleet of that didn't use a gas engine at all. Even GM had the EV-1 so they could have offered it to the consumer and let them decide. The after market is using the same batteries in the converted Prius and Honda hybrids. This is off the shelf stuff nothing all that exotic. The waiting till they have better batteries is the very same old story they told CARB 25 years ago and it was untrue then just as it is now. It is an excuse and noting more.
Many insiders have said that the next automotive advancements may not come from the major manufacturers and I am beginning to agree. Sending over a few old mini cars isn't going to help in the long run and the reported fuel mileage on cars like the Smart aren't as impressive as they had hoped.
There are things we as a nation can do during this fuel crisis and many are doing it. We have cut back on our fuel useage by something like 30 percent, from what has been reported in the news, and that is without getting little old model models from Japan. This is a good time to move in a totally new automotive direction because the American Consumer seems ready for it. Plug in Hybrids, fuel cells and EV should be a major player in our attempt to beat the oil addiction.
Shoot in my area scooters are selling out of the cycle shops and bicycle stores are doing a booming business. People are ready, lets see if they come up with a new solution or if they try to import a old solution from a different country. After reading that our US olympic team can even train in China because of the smog I sure don't think I am interested in Asia's solution.
I am not arguing the SL one way or the other, just stating that many people here seem to have the attitude that they should be able to drive what they think the SL should be and not what it actual is.
Some people have encountered jerks on the highway who "dominated" them, so they think that punishing the jerks (and everyone else) by dominating THEM is appropriate.
I really don't think that that is the case for most. But by that logic I would guess that having "No Trespassing" signs are ways to dominate people.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If memory serves wasn't the 55 MPH limit imposed long before Reagan became president?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You don't? I wonder why not. Tailgating is aggressive behavour against someone who is going slower than the person doing the tailgating. To put it more directly, if the tailgating didn't want or need to go faster than the car infront of it there wouldn't be tailgating. Its pretty much is an attempt to get the person to either move faster or out of the way.
In short, I am more important than you get out of my way.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D