Petroleum or Synthetic oil for my pickup truck?
f350_or_bust
Member Posts: 13
Wanted to start another discussion based soley
upon application of this question on trucks.
What is the general "rule of thumb" when it comes
to chosing when to, or not to switch to synthetic
based oils?
Does going to a synthetic oil change the need for
a higher or lower weight oil?
What brands do you recommend?
Thanks!!!!
upon application of this question on trucks.
What is the general "rule of thumb" when it comes
to chosing when to, or not to switch to synthetic
based oils?
Does going to a synthetic oil change the need for
a higher or lower weight oil?
What brands do you recommend?
Thanks!!!!
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Viscosity - a 10W30 synthetic is about the same as a 10W40 'normal' petro based product. Either is the choice for Texas (temperature) driving. A 5W30 maybe in colder climes. DO NOT use the 15 or 20W50 weight synthetics unless you tow heavy loads every day in high ambient air temps. or race the truck exclusively, and DO NOT use the new 0W30 anywhere except on permafrost. The viscosity doesn't 'break down' in synthetics as it does (at about 2,500 miles) in a petro based oil. But, most synthetics have some petro base in them along with the normal additives you get in the petro based oils. They (synths) can run longer however, if you require that - Porsche says normal is 10 - 15k. Pretty amazing.
Brands - Mobil1, Amsoil, Castrol Syntec, Redline Pennzoil and Quaker State to name but a few. Also, look into the Mobil1 'style' filters. And change it sooner than marketing suggests: change it at normal intervals. I use Mobil1 synthetic in my new Dakota quad cab as it's readily available, and I literally run the crap out of it with nary a worry. I also run it in my 71 Chevy Super Cheyenne 400, Lincoln Towncar and various and sundry Porsches and 2 Volvo Turbos I own. I DO NOT run them in my bikes as they don't work really well with the wet clutches, though a couple of my friends do with good results so far (they say). Good luck. :-)
Bookitty
bookitty - thanks for the plug, but I'm still not sold on that 'cat' story.
Further, to re-instill your confidence and faith in me, my cat is synthetic; Prior nomenclature was
Sheltie.
Bookitty
What kinda bikes you got?
If'in I wanna buy an 928S4, what should I look for and what should I skip.
I can't remember what temp the SAE specifies for the xW viscosity testing and what temp SAE specifies for the -xx rating in the xW-xx oil weights.
Oh ya, no problems with synthetics in any of my wet clutch race bikes....
928S4 - of course a good Euro 928S (1984 & 85 are best) is about the same performance - valves won't collide with pistons on the old 2-valvers if the timing belt fails. I'd say on the S4's "one that is not UNDER priced and has PERFECT books/records, in the 40-50k mile range." Also, they got better until the model run ended & 5 speeds are HIGHLY desirable (rare), though I prefer the Mercedes (sourced) 4-spd autos. Also, over a 100k miles and the aluminum frames / bodies start to fail at several % per year. Loses some stiffness. I still auto-x mine & never noticed the stiffness thing. Maintenance soars on these Porsches, though they're probably "THE best Sports / GT value ever, for the price you can get them for NOW." Performance is mind numbing. I've had a couple of 'locals' wet their pants in the passenger seats of both of mine - good thing they have leather (with synthetic sheepskin covers).
They run like a ZR1 Vette without the drama at the 10/10ths level, but I'd say a good used ZR1 and / or the newer Camaro LT-1 version is a better all around deal. And the ZR1 will be worth a LOT more later on. Shoot it already is. The 928 was misunderstood by everyone except the auto press and people (like me) who believe front engine / rear drive/ water cooled sportscars are simply better. Porsche 'purists' killed it (and the 944 which quite literally SAVED the Porsche name from extinction as a privately owned marque).
temps - only thing I remember vividly is the xW-xx thing / eg - a 20W50 oil needs (because of the 50 high end) a MINIMAL temp of something like 220-225 degrees F. Meaning it needs to be run in 'racing like' conditions; preheated & so on is best - but not absolutely mandatory - as it needs to get to operating temp quickly. I know dry-sump oiling is useful here as well. I do know the new 0W-xx is rated for Arctic Circle and similar cold climes only. I have a chart somewhere, I'll dig it up and post here as soon as I find it...
arkie6 and markbuck - a guy I know (more toys than ANYONE I know of) who has a 1980 XS11 Midnight Special has been using 15W50 Mobil 1 in his since new, and everything else he owns - zero problems to date. He keeps telling me to switch, I just keep getting told about the synthetics 'short comings' in regards to the wet-clutch thing by some really good (at least they're well meaning) motorcycle race mechanics. In my racing kart, synthetics are precluded from use by the manufacturer and our racing organization due to 'dangerous conditions possible if used at sustained high rpm's of 10,000 and above.' My Yamaha K-100 runs at 12,000 so I don't use synthetics in the clutch. The Briggs class does allow it however, but they run about 4-5k rpm or so, and generally run dry clutches - the synthetics are used in the bottom ends of the 4 stroke Briggs vs. the oil burner 2 stroke Yams.
BTW - F350 guy, my dad has run 2 million vehicle miles in his 77 years. He has never had even a MINOR engine problem; only had one ticket in his whole life and 20 or so vehicles, including a big GMC FWD motorhome and several hot rods and very neat cars over the years (56 Nomad V-8, 64 Park Lane w/ Interceptor engine, 71 Super Cheyenne w/400 V-8, etc.), and he was reluctant to even switch to a multi-vis oil back in the early 70's (or even a detergent oil!). He wouldn't know a synthetic if he wore it. The kicker: He's one of the best of the best petroleum geologists of all time - has forgotten more than most people will ever know about oil (not synthetics). Lives & breathes it. Has been responsible for more than 4,000 (thousand) drilled wells in the U.S. over a period of 45 years. He ought to know oil; makes you 'wonder' about synthetics. His secret? He changes his oil at 3k intervals, keeps the breathers & filters changed, doesn't 'lug' or hot rod the engine, cleans & 'rods' the radiators on a 2 to 3 year basis and keeps the oil & coolant full at all times. Must be doing something right. Or darned lucky.
arkie6 - are you planning on using a Mobil 1 type filter? They are really nice, especially during cold starts and only $10. Oh, and how hard do you run your CB? Idle to warm up, ride slow or fast to get temp up, etc.? When (mileage) did you switch the oil to Mobil 1 on the bike?
While this is undoubtedly one of the best synthetics out there, I've always been a Valvoline guy. I've used Valvoline conventional oils all my life with extremely good results. I've driven all of my vehicles well over 100K miles and some as much as 200K. With my new Silverado 3/4 ton though, I'll be doing a lot more towing with a heavier trailer so I've decided to go synthetic in this truck.
Anybody have an opinion, real test data or real world useage indicating whether Valvoline's SynPower synthetic is as good as Mobil 1? Either brand is readily available to me in my local parts stores and the price is about the same (within 5 cents a quart), so that's not an issue.
I run M1 5-30 year round in my 2500 Silverado.
- Tim
I just read some info last night on Royal Purple and looked at their website this morning - it really does sound like a good product, and its apparently available at most NAPA stores.
Tim,
I agree that Mobil 1 is the most popular and available, but if its not the best one out there,
which do you think is?
How do you like your 2500? any problems with it? I really am enjoying mine.
Well...I think Mobil 1 will keep up with the others...say...up to 10K miles....after that products like Amsoil and red Line seem to be better? I'd have to say Amsoil's 25K change interval that GM backs is pretty impressive.
There is a local dealer for Amsoil right here...so it's not hard to get....I still chose Mobil 1....if for some reason I was wherever...and didn't have my extra bottle in the back...and needed it....I know I can get it a number of places.
As I've said before...no way am I leaving oil in for 25,000 miles....no matter what anyone says. My oil light came on at about 4300 miles...and I have gone 1000 past that...so about 5-6K with Mobil 1 and GM filters are just right for me.
Good Luck
- Tim
And no, I'm not trying to start that debate up again!!
600 or so miles.....changed initial oil to Mobil 10-30..
about 2900-3400 miles.??...(can't remember)...changed to Mobil 1 5-30
Had that in since...
changed about 5-6 K miles with a Delco filter..
I figure dealer sells Mobil 1....and if it's their filter...they can't say it caused a problem..
- Tim
Up to you
- Tim
..without going to 0-30...I don't think GM approves that
- Tim
I run 10-30 in summer, 5w-30 winter and 0w-30 in the real winter.
Remember folks that the xW rating is the viscosity at a particular temp (guessing 32F) and the -xx rating is in at a particular temp (guessing 200F or 212F or 225F) The VI's in most multivis conventional oils tend to lose their effectiveness above and below these two sorta arbitrary setpoints, thus the value of either blended or full synthetics or even straight weight oils.
Anybody out there remember the actual temperature the viscosity is tested at....
taxis in NYC and put all brands, Mobil 1, pennzoil, castrol, etc in 5W-30 - 10W-30 weights,
changing oil at 3,000, 6,000 and 12,000 under the
most severe driving conditions.
According to report there was no difference in
performance between the $4.50 a qt. stuff vs the
.89 cents a qt. oil. all oils used had the Starburst symbol and were API SJ rated. No
significant difference between 3,000 and 6,000 mile change interval on engine parts. at 12,000
mi a very slight difference. ha ha ha!! Oil companies are laughing all the way to the bank with our gullability in changing oil every 3,000
mi. All the API SJ rated oils from all the makers
performed equally well, regardless if they were
synthetic or mineral based. If it makes you feel any better, use the synthetic. It is all there,
on the internet, see for yourselves. regarding
the additives, FORGET ABOUT IT...am going to
change my oil in my '00 chevy 2500 5.7L at
5,000 mi intervals with 10W-30 ProLINE available
at PEPBOYS for less than a buck and run my
Chevy beyond 300,000 mi like my dad did in his '74
using straight 30W Pennzoil........
w/PENNZANE is around $4.49/qt. Pennzoil says to change every 3000 mi if driving in severe conditions. They said they developed the stuff
for use in outer space....WOW!! It is more expensive than Mobil 1. I think I will try
ProLINE Silver semi-synthetic 5W-30 API SJ for
about .89/qt. for my first oil change. I now have
1200 mi on new '00 C2500. Will think on it some more as I rack up the miles on my 78 mi one way
commute 2.5 times a week. (CARPOOLER).
START>>>>>>
Could not resist jumping in on a few
misconceptions in the thread.
First...ash content has nothing directly to do
with sludge...ash is simply a measure of the
inorganic metallic compounds "left over" when the
orgainc stuff is burned away. Typically this is
Zinc Dithiophosphate (spell?) in PCMO (pass car
motor oil). Comparing this as a basis to purchase
oil is not a useful measurement, only really useful
purchase specs is GF-2/SJ spec (or similar
BMW/Euro approvals) & weight/vis. Ash is sometime
relevant for engines sensitive to valve deposits
from oil in some types of engines (not cars & light
trucks).
Second...syn typically only "lasts" longer if it
has more better/additives in the original
formulation than other comparable non-syn oils(and
a good filter)...the syn base oil itself is no more
likely to "break down" than most mineral-based
oils. In fact, some hydrogen-treated, catalytically
dewaxed conventional oils (called "Group II" in
trade) perform in most respects like syn .I believe
from Marketing messages, but do not know factually
(trade secret formulas), that some premium syns do
probably have above-spec./next-generation "type"
premuim additives providing more "safety margin" if
you will.
Syn IS less likely to sludge-up if you have high
temp zones in engine like 'vettes, turbo's. Also
lubes faster at start-up in cold places w/o engine
heaters. Some technical researchers say it has less
internal friction (due to uniform molecules) and
gets better mileage; some say this is mostly
viscosity effect (blend to lower viscosity in
acceptable range for the grade always gets more
mileage mileage), and in any case no consumer will
likley be able to measure a statistically
significant change of only 1% or so in milage
(odometers, pumps, gas blends, and driving
conditions vary WAY WAY too much from tank to tank
to reliably measure small mileage differences.
Dirty oil says NOTHING about how much useful life
the oil has (was true dirty=bad when oils had no
additives in them befor about 1960 or so). Only
tests can tell when an oil is worn out.
Here is some stuff I put in another group on oils
& oil condition tests:
There are some rather interesting opinions on
oils/lubrication/testing/extended drains...then
again cars can be a passion for enthusiasts.
At work, we use Cleveland Tech (CTC) for used oil
analysis, they may do some OEM-branded tests too,
I dunno. But our work is for fleets, and mostly
HDMO (i.e. sooty diesel engines, not PCMO-Pass Car
Motor Oil).
I NEVER recommend **consumers** vary from OEM
drain and viscosity reccommendations no matter
what
testing processes they do...risk/reward is too
small IMHO. It is fine to be more conservative,
and/or test, but sent max. intervals at OEM
limits. Very surprising the amount of 10W40 & 20W50
PCMO we sell...BUT no OEM recommends those grades
any longer (and has not for a while). Old
habits/beliefs die hard.
For the record, I use syn & premium (or OEM)
filter in my personal car and change at about 5K
miles...this is overkill, but heck oil is
cheap...engines are not. The syn does not lube
"better", but does provide some additional safety
margins in some areas. I have used oil analysis
from time to time on my older car to check
conditions. Titan Labs (sold at K-mart) has a
consumer-friendly report. Most folks should avoid
purely numeric reports like fleets use.
My PCMO oil advice to consumers is mostly like
"Click & Clack"(NPR car show) give:(1) GF2/SJ oils
are very good even at base spec. blend (2) buy a
major brand (big oil co. or retail brand---the
issue is day to day quality control, NOT who is
"best"...around 5% if I recall correctly, per API
and State of NC (only state that checks) are
misblended/sold off-spec (3) change and use a good
filter each time and do it at *5000 miles* not 3000
oil change places say...when the color get darker
the oil is still fine for service. If you are TRULY
severe service (per OEM), then do that
recommendation for miles (4) Add nothing to the
oil...it is a competitive market if their was a
miracle additive in would be in oil in the first
place...our developers are pretty smart
formulators, and I think know a lot more about
engines than most infomercial people.
Disclaimer: most oil manufactures say follow OEM
recommendations...too many Lawyers out there to
vary from that advice if you are a big deep pockets
company...little oil supplers can vary and push
extended drains...I think they need a way to
merchandise oils, and it is quite true that done
right extended drains are possible (look at newer
Mercedes & BMWs).
FWIW, I do have a professional basis to comment on
oils, relevant credentials (besides employment:
lubricants technical training at major oil co.)
are ChE degree, and STLE (Society of Tribologists
and Lubrication Engineers) CLS(tm) credential
(Certified Lubrication Specialist). Waaaaaay too
many posters in these technical forums sound too
"authoritative" in their tone. Claiming a
cause/effect relationship (or implying it) without
data is silly...Like race car *drivers* endorsing
oil additive...come on, that is "testimonial" not
proof/solid evidence. Netizens beware...
If I had a high mileage (100,000 +) engine that was using a quart of oil every 1,000 miles I would use ?w50 oil - at that point in the engines life who cares - but for a low mileage engine that is running right, not using oil it would be foolish -IMO. If you do the research you will find that 5w50 oil will give you less mpg than 5w30, and in fact be harder on the engine in terms of wear.
Not trying to give you a hard time - it's your engine - so do whatever you want. I have read many articles on oil, been to a few classes on lubrication of industrial motors -not that I claim to be an expert -but everything I have learned is opposite to what you are saying.
I didn't claim to be a lubrication wizard so I am always willing to learn more details. In fact I love them but I have never had a chance to dive more deeply into this subject. No time like the present. I was always led to believe that in the multiviscosity oils, the first number was the "flows like" number and the second was the "protects like" weight. Maybe you can help clear this up then. Obviously a 20w50 flows better than straight 50 and 10w40 and 5w30 flow better than their respective straight weight (40 and 30 respectively).
So 5w30 and 5w50 do not flow the same? Using that logic, does 10w30 flows better than 5w50? I would think the 5w50 would flow better than 10w30. What about comparing the 0w30 with 5w30. They flow the same since they are both 30 weight or does the 0w flow better than the 5w?
Maybe the difference is in operating temperature and that is what I'm missing. Is that the key to all this? I believe the 'w' weight is at outside temperature before engine operating temp is reached. Is the second number meaningless until we are at operating temps? Just trying to understand.
Are you saying that 5w50 flows, once at operating temperature flows not better than 20w50 or straight 50 weight?
By the way, this is all regarding synthetics, not conventional oils, though I'm sure this applies their, too. All I know is when I switched from 5w30 conventional to the 5w50 synthetic in one of my vehicles years ago, mileage improved significantly in the winter time and a smaller amount in the summer. If I go from 5w50 syn. a 5w30 syn. should my mileage increase again or be about the same? As I said in my previous post, the 5w50 weight was all that was available in Castrol Synten when I decided to try it back then and I guess I never really thought I should switch when the 5w30 came out. I thought the 5w50 would be better. Guess it's not from what you are saying.
What is it about a 5w50 syn oil that makes it harder on an engine that a 5w30? I realize why a 20w50 would be harder on a day to day engine as would straight 50. It would take way longer for the oil to start freely flowing so less oil protecting the engine until it warms up. But when comparing 5w50 and 5w30, what makes the 5w50 harder on my engine?
(I may not be able to check back for a couple days as I am going out of town for the holidays but will try. I really am interested to find out exactly how these numbers effect real world daily drivers).
Thank in advace for any more insight you can provide.
Chad
As I said, I started using 5w-50 when it was the only variety Castrol Syntec.
So, at operating temperatures, 5w50, 20w50, and 50 all flow/act the same. 10w30, 5w30, and 0w30, and 30 all flow/act the same.
At startup, 5w30, 5w20, 5w40, 5w50, and 5 all flow the same. 10w30, 10w40, and 10 all flow the same. I guess 0w30 flows like air! Seriously, though, if 0w30 flows the best on startup yet protects like any other 30 weight like 5w30 and 10w30, shouldn't 0w30 be the best whether you are in 40 below, 40 above, or 80 degree weather?
Even 80 degrees outside is a far cry from normal engine operating temperatures so wouldn't the 0w30 then hold the advantage over all others to get 'oil to the vitals' faster and better? My last oil change I switched to Mobil 1 5w30 and now am wondering if the 0w30 would be a better choice. If both are 30 weight at operating temp but one flows better and quicker at starting temperature (the 0w30), shouldn't everyone (whose engine calls for 30 weight) use that? What do you think?
A 10W-40 multi-viscosity oil will match a straight 10 weight's oil thickness (viscosity) at one specific cold temp (32F). This same multiviscosity oil will thin out less than a straight 10 weight oil as temperature rises. In fact, the multiviscosity's oil thickness' will be the same as a straight 40 weight oil at one warm temperature (200F).
What happens above and below these two specific temps is not captured by the _W-__ SAE thickness measureing system. Synthetics almost always work better at both ends of the spectrum (more linear). Conventional oils are likely to thicken more than an equavalent synth oil at temps below the "_W" rating and thin more than than the synth above these temps.
Additionally, and very important, the additives (called VI improvers) tend to break down with time so the less VI improvers one uses, the better. As the VI improvers break down, the oil reverts more and more to acting like the 5W-xx oil weight.
The only thing I'm uncertain about is the exact temp used to measure viscosity for the low and high temps (I made up 32F and 200F).
Hope this helps.
There are several important things to consider when selecting the engine oil. You really need to use what the manufacture requires if you expect to keep your warranty valid. If the oil is too thick at normal operating temperatures your mileage will suffer. If the range of the oil's operating temperatures is wide, (i.e. 5w50) the oil contains more viscosity enchancers than an oil with a narrow range. (i.e. 10w30) There is an exception to the rule. If you regularly drive in an extreme climate it is acceptable to use a thinner oil to insure easy starting. Also the thinner oil provides better lubrication during cold engine start up. The thicker (a.k.a. Heavier) weights of oil are less likely to seep between the cylinder walls and rings and are used in higher mileage engines to compensate for normal wear. The heavier weights of oil flow more easily into the wider gaps around worn bearings. In a new engine it would not surprise me if a heavier oil actually increased bearing wear because the gaps are narrower and more difficult to be lubricated by the thicker oil.
IMHO, While your vehicle is new it is unadvisable to exceed the vehicle manufacturers requirement for oil weights. If the recommendation is for xW40 oil, I would not use xW50 until the engine actually needed it to stop oil burning.
Rich
Slick 50 is a good product that has taken a lot of hits because of cheap imitators. Slick 50 developed a formula that used teflon as an additive, but chemical bonded. Several companies brought out products with teflon, but did not properly bind it and it separated from the other additives. The effect was like adding sand to the oil. The word got out about this and Slick 50 got branded by association.
While I have always been a fan of Slick 50, with today's synthethic oils, I do not feel a strong desire to continue using it. STP is another good product that is less used today, because the oils got better.