Why so few economy cars with manual tranny?

bobw3

what's the advantage of the yaris over the corolla?

beantown

I'd like to see the ad for a fully loaded LE Corolla for $16-17K!!

Check out fitzmall.com. They have loaded auto LEs with an MSRP of $18,370 going for $16,893. This is why I question what you wrote earlier about seeing ads for USED LEs going for $18K-20K. Anyone who shops at those dealerships should be shot and put out of their misery.

mrrk47

This is all purely a matter of opinion: potentially better mpg's, nicer exterior looks, built in japan, much better looking/ergo interior,plenty of power(not as much as corolla). I was faced with a decision recently, Corolla CEvs. Yaris base(power pkg, auto,)..it just appealed to me more since I intend on keeping this for over 6 or 7 years

boris13

The Yaris liftback offers cargo space: enough for a couple of decent-size dogs, large amounts of groceries, multiple boxes, smaller furniture items, etc.

It can carry a lot of stuff while still getting 35-40 mpg.

The Corolla doesn't offer that flexibility. It's only made in sedan form.

electrobuzz

Um, actually, the Corolla offers relative flexibility, without the entry-level issues.

Cargo space Yaris hatch: 12.85 cf
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2005-12-29-yaris_x.htm

Cargo space Corolla: 12.1 cf.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_7_52/ai_76143236

Lemme see.... 0.7 cf um that's like a large shaving kit( 9"x9"x9")?!?

boris13

You're missing the point. I have dogs. I am NOT going to lock my two fairly large sled dogs (or ANY dog) in the trunk of a Corolla (or let them jump around in, and tear up, the back seat)! I need a hatchback. The Yaris comes in a hatchback; the Corolla doesn't.

Therefore, the Corolla isn't an option for me.

electrobuzz

Not missing the point. You could put one large sled dog (unlocked in a sedan or any other, my friend) in the backseat and carry mucho mucho accessories in the trunk.

SIMPLIFY, MAN!

boris13

OK, look. I have TWO dogs, not one. They are super high-energy (think Iditarod-type dogs). They will literally destroy the upholstery in the back seat of a sedan (which, as you point out, will only have space enough for ONE dog anyway) and jump around from the seat to the floor in such a vehicle. Getting rid of one dog is NOT an option (if anything, I want to acquire more dogs), and they need a somewhat hard, level surface to sit or lay on.

My Number One priority when it comes to considering potential vehicles is accommodating my dogs on trips to the training area. Again: first priority is being able to transport the dogs safely and comfortably. Bottom line: I need a hatchback. For me, a hatchback is the most versatile body style.

MPG/operating expense is my Number Two priority and reliability/durability is Number Three. I fail to see how the Corolla works for me at all. If they ever produce the Corolla in a hatchback, I'll look at it. But it damn well better get 40 mpg, too.

bottgers

Somehow we've gone from talking about why there are so few manual tranny equipped vehicles to why it's necessary to have a hatchback because of dogs. I love both hatchbacks and dogs, but can we get back on topic?

boris13

Yes, sorry.

I guess I was answering the question that someone posed within the overall topic, which was: "Do you think the Yaris is (will be) the best small Toyota?"

My answer to that is "Yes," at least to the liftback version, because of its versatility (which I have over-expounded upon).

As to the original question, "Why so few Corollas, Yarii, and Echos with manual tranny?" ... I would guess that it's for two reasons (which have likely been covered earlier):
1) Americans are lazy and want automatics so they won't have to shift (or even learn to work a clutch)... and 2) There's a perception that modern automatic transmissions do just as well in terms of fuel economy as manual transmissions (they don't, in my opinion).

bottgers

....with auto trannies is the fact that NOBODY seems to be able or willing to build one that will last as long as a manual. You'd think after almost 100 years of building auto trannies, SOMEONE by now would be able to build one that isn't the weakest link in the drivetrain.

backy

Automatics are much more complex than manual transmissions and are getting more complex every day (electronics and software, 5 speeds, 6 speeds, 7 speeds, 8 speeds...). More complexity leads to more chances of problems.

mcdawgg

I agree with you. What's funny is the people who swear the manual tranny is NOT as reliable. If you want an example, see the Toyota Camry 2007+ forum (it is read only now), starting with message 4377.

bottgers

Maybe they should get basic reliability down BEFORE they start adding in the complexities. The most reliable auto tranny I've ever seen was GM's Powerglide. Maybe auto makers today should tear one down, learn about what made it so durable, then design their trannies around that.

backy

That's not the problem. The old three-speed automatics were pretty reliable I recall. But the more millions of lines of code and the more parts you add to a system, the greater the chances of an error. To completely eliminate problems from a complex system like today's electronic automatic trannies would be cost-prohibitive--you can do it on avionics because people will pay the cost (the price of failure is very, very high), but on a car's transmission? Nope.

mcdawgg

I checked the local Toyota/Scion dealer last night. Out of about 50 total of Camrys, Corollas, Yaris, Matrix, XA, XB, and TC, there was ONE stick shift - an XB!!

bottgers

That's just ridiculous! Are people actually getting that lazy these days?

mcdawgg

I was really shocked. Based on my observation, I am sure that within the next 10 years, you won't be able to buy a Toyota with a stick. By the way, did you see my post #63?

mcdawgg

I checked again last night at the local Toyota/Scion dealer (I had 15 minutes to kill). Once again, out of about 50 total of Camrys, Corollas, Yaris, Matrix, XA, XB, and TC, there was still only ONE stick shift - that same XB!! They are not selling their only stick too fast, that's for sure! No wonder they have almost all cars with automatics!

nippononly

I have been playing with the idea of getting back into a Corolla after a decade in other Toyotas and Hondas (and one Subaru), so I have been checking dealer stock - may go for a test drive tomorrow.

My nearest dealer is a small family affair, dealing exclusively in top-trim Toyotas and nary a manual shift on the lot.

However, there is one about 20 minutes away that I checked out briefly after closing the night before last. They have a very good selection of Corollas, including several stick shifts. Unfortunately, the only LE sticks they have go without alloys, and I hate the icky wheel covers. Good price on those though - low $16Ks, which I bet I could get for about $14,5 really easily right now with the $500 rebate.
But for alloys I must move on to the Corolla S, several with the usual cruise package for high $16Ks, hoping for a $15K transaction price there, and a couple with the full-on moonroof/side airbags and curtaikns package as well, stickered at $18,5, which I could maybe get for $16,5 or $17K? I dunno. But I was gratified to see a good selection of sticks, which was a large, albeit pleasant, surprise.

Try finding a Matrix with a stick - that's harder.

The same lot I just mentioned also has several Yarii, evenly split between sedans and hatches, and almost evenly split between manuals and autos, funnily enough. Of course, all the hatches are stripped down to nothing, but I think the hatch is out of consideration for me as I want at least four passenger doors.

The Echo I have now has served me well, pulling more than 40 mpg all the time in suburban driving, but I am getting the itch to move on. I do agree that in these small-engined cars one very much wants to make sure of getting the stick not the auto, which on both of these models is still only a 4-speed.

john500

I purchased an 06 Corolla CE back in June. Changing the tires to 195 width was mandatory (for me) for improved handling. It seems that the only thing that the S models give is the extra tire width (which is quite expensive as a dealer option compared to the aftermarket option). My two biggest subjective gripes are:

1. No company has sold an aftermarket air intake for the Corolla since 05 (transition year to electronic throttle).
2. There is something "funny" about the electronic throttle. When shifting gears, there is a split-second upsurge in rpm that occurs after the gear change. I have attributed this (perhaps incorrectly) as a lag in the electronic throttle response. This might be an intentional action by Toyota to extract more power while shifting. However, it gives me the feeling of a loss of control. It becomes noticeable to me during hard-driving, which for me is about 60 % of the time as I tend to beat cars.

Might be non-issues to you. Otherwise, it is a nice car.

dkarsch

I bought a LE a few months ago and really wanted alloys as the steel wheels just look bad. I eventually ended up getting the dealer to put alloys on for me as I didn't want the "S" model. They were a little more than what my local mechanic could have gotten alloys for but the price difference wasn't that bad and they were Toyota OEM rims.

nippononly

the bummer is, in my area Toyota is shipping LE automatics with alloys by the truckload. If I were willing to settle for an auto I could easily get an LE with the alloys, and my choice of lots of other stuff too, like ABS, side arbags/curtains, multi-disc etc, but since I insist on a stick I must be poor, so I can only get cruise control and the crappy wheel covers. Thanks Toyota. :-/

At least it's relatively easy to get a stick shift S with a variety of options.

bobw3

market conditions...plain and simple. Not enough folks buy them. The dealers just need one stripped model with a manual to advertise the low price in the Sunday paper.

iwannanewcar

I searched far and wide for my manual Corolla S and LOVE it! I think the reason people don't buy manuals anymore is lazyness pure and simple. My husband thinks it's because automatics are more responsive and powerful than they used to be. We agree to disagree. Next toyota I buy I'll special order what I want, searching dealers was a pain in the rear.

boris13

No market in the US for loaded cars with stick shifts... I would agree. My special-order 5-speed Yaris liftback loaded with power package, alloy wheels, ABS and side airbags will be fairly unique, I'm sure.

mcdawgg

A few years ago I stopped by a Toyota dealer, and one of the salesman said that he had only seen one other car like mine! I have a '99 LE with alloys, ABS, moonroof, rear spoiler, and (best of all) a 5 speed manual. Mine was special ordered too.

bottgers

Your '99 sounds exactly like mine. Mine has everything you listed your's as having, plus it has the "gold" package. Does your's have that? How many miles do you have on your's? Mine just turned 98K. I'm hoping to see 200K with it.

bottgers

The wheels issue is my biggest complaint with Toyota and Honda. Especially pertaining to the Corolla and Civic, alloy wheels are standard ONLY on the very top and most expensive trim levels, and to get them as an option at the other trim levels is cost prohibitive. You'd actually be better off buying aftermarket wheels. To me, there is nothing cheesier looking than those damn cheap looking steel wheels with those $.50 looking PLASTIC hub caps. God I hate those things! Personally, I think only the very bottom trim level should come with steel wheels. Alloys should be standard equipment on all other trim levels.

mcdawgg

Mine is at 91K miles. I do not have the gold package.

blackyaris2007

TOYOTA OF HOLLYWOOD!! TOYOTA OF HOLLYWOOD!!!
Best Toyota dealership in Florida and they have lots and lots of sticks/manual in sedan and liftback. Rick Case Honda and Toyota of Hollywood are the absolute best dealerships.Bought my 05'Element from Rick Case and traded it in at Toyota of Hollywood for the Yaris. Toyo of Hollywood, Florida was the only dealership that was SERIOUS about selling cars.Forever grateful for them.
I had to drive two hours to get to Toyo of Hollywood based on owner recommendations and the fact that the dealership in my home town stated "we are unable to accommodate your needs."

Shop around and make calls. Was so close to buying the Chevy Aveo which I love the interior room and the fold down seats with plastic coverings. Pick-up was ok but not wonderful like in the Yaris. The Aveo had sticking problem and wasn't smooth. Felt cheapy but the numbers were right and the dealership was awesome...took one last chance to find a Yaris and ...Toyo of Hollywood sealed the deal!

Mr_Shiftright

San Francisco Toyota has a bunch of shiftshift Yarisi in stock as well. They're a really great dealership.

kneisl1

Just a warning if you change the oil in your manual transmission ECHO. I used conventional 75w-90 and at temps below about 30 degrees it was very difficult to get into gear upon first starting. (no problem at 40-50 though) Took about 10 minutes of driving before it even came close to normal. Had to drain the stuff I put in and change to synthetic. That returned the shifting to normal.

nippononly

I thought I would also chime in for San Francisco Toyota - they are the ony dealership in the Bay Area that is serious about stocking stick shifts - certainly you can find a wide selection of stick shift Yarii and Corollas there all the time.

bottgers

....for the arrival of the next generation Corolla. Then I will look for a left over current model with a stick shift. They should be giving them away by then. And if the one I find happenes to have those cheesy looking plastic wheel covers, I'll stop by the nearest dumpster on my way out of the dealer's lot and chuck them in! If the prices aren't as low as I think they'll be, maybe I'll look for a 1 or 2 year old Civic (the latest version). That's a sweet ride!

allcarsrcool

does the yaris hatchback even have a tachometer or do you have to drive by ear?

lhanson

You have to drive it by ear/feel? It doesn't rake long to get used to it.

moparblue2

drive it how ever you want. computer will not let you blow it up. remember you have to work a small motor if you are going to run with everybody else on the road. drive it like you stold it :shades:

ort_rich

Here's why. Demands are low, profits are smaller, resale value is lower than auto trans and it's difficult for dealer to sell as a x lease vehicles.

boris13

Most standard-shift cars of the '40s, '50s, and '60s never had tachometers, either. Everyone had no problem driving them. It's easy to tell when to shift; just listen to your engine.

Mr_Shiftright

Those engines didn't need tachometers...they were high torque engines that put out their horsepower well below redline and usually ran out of air before they reached redline anyway...(valve float)...but these little guys require you to approach redline if you want to get any power out of them....so you need to monitor that. If you keep the revs between 3,000 and 5,000 the little Yaris will perform, but go below 2,500 rpm and the engine is dead.

kneisl1

I drive my ECHO at 45 mph in fifth (25 in fourth) here in flat NJ. I suspect the rpms at those speeds are well under 3000 rpm. I dont believe you need to hit anything near redline in normal driving situations in an ECHO. Certainly racing motorcycles with high strung engines dont use tachometers (or even speedometers) You just shift using the power output of the engine as a guide. So I dont think a tach is needed in an ECHo at all. I have gone as fast as it is possible to go in an ECHO with your foot on the floor (106 mph indicated) and I assume a rev limiter prevented mr from damageing the engine under those conditions.

electrobuzz

I have gone as fast as it is possible to go in an ECHO with your foot on the floor (106 mph indicated) and I assume a rev limiter prevented mr from damageing the engine under those conditions.

Let's hope that 106mph was on a track... if not, the rev limiter prevented you from damageing (sic) others as well.

kneisl1

No one was hurt, nor have I or anyone else been hurt by anything I have done in a car or motorcycle or airplane for 30 years. And if you go 106 mph in an ECHO on a track, that doesnt make you or anyone else "safe" either.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I meant if you wanted power...passing power...if you were under 3,000 rpm in 5th gear and mashed the gas, you wouldn't go anywhere very quickly. In my xA I'd be in third by then or maybe 4th, for passing I mean.

These engines like to be revved, and are built for it. You don't hurt modern OHC engines by revving them up---but it does cost you gas, that is certainly true.

I tend to sacrifice the 2-3 miles per gallon for the extra power and fun I get by revving it up as much as I can. Even at my worst I never drop below 30 mpg.

kneisl1

I guess I have become a mileage freak. Nothing beats the feeling come tank filling time and doing the math and getting 40 mpg! I almost never pass anyone anymore. But you are right these engines will rev like a formula One! Its also possible to chirp the tires quite easily from a standing atart!

Mr_Shiftright

Oh you can do more than chirp the tires...it looks kinda funny on such a car, but you can easily burn some rubber.

moparblue2

we have had 2000 Echo 5 speed. we now have 2004 Echo 5 speed no tach. it will run alot faster then 106 mph. i drive it hard. i hits the rev limiter at 95 mph in 3 gear. if you wind it up it will do 35 mph in 1 it will hit 65 mph in 2 gear & so on. it will top out at 121 mph & hit rev limter & you we be all over the road. i have been faster but in bigger cars & trucks. this 2004 Echo is a two door. i have K & N Air filter & paformance tires. same size as stock just sticker tires. yes i am a 44 year old kid. THAT IS WHY I SAY DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLDED IT.

electrobuzz

No one was hurt, nor have I or anyone else been hurt by anything I have done in a car or motorcycle or airplane for 30 years. And if you go 106 mph in an ECHO on a track, that doesnt make you or anyone else "safe" either

***

It's a matter of time then for you. Being an idiot for 30 years means you are just about due. If you think a track is not "safer" than the roads... wow, I don't know if any explaining will help you. Let's break it down... track = controlled environment, roads = uncontrolled. track = legal, roads = illegal, track = you are in minimal danger, roads = everyone is in danger. Does that help?

And Mopar, drive it like you stolded it?!? You are 44? Don't call yourself a kid. That's an insult to most kids I know.

Sorry, folks, but GROW UP BEFORE YOU KILL SOMEONE!.
If it's just you, Darwin will no doubt smile from above.

kneisl1

Buzzhead you are a ledgend in your own mind.