Why so few economy cars with manual tranny?

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Comments

  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    IMHO the reason Europeans do not have as many AT equipeed cars is not that they dislike automatics, they dislike higher gas consumption.

    Most cars sold in Europe are less powerful, with smaller displacement engines.

    I these types of cars, most of the time automatic transmissions use more fuel than their manual counterparts, although this has been changing with 6,7 and 8 speed automatics and CVT's.

    Considering the price of gasoline (US$ 5.20 per gallon in Germany) I don't blame them for sticking (no pun intended) mostly with stick shifts.
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    Back when I used to drive one, I was taught to never go back to first unless you came to a dead stop. Mind you, I live in Oklahoma, where steep hills and six-lane gridlock are few and far between. But I'm wondering why would shifting from to to 4 and back be such a hardship? I did it for five years. Not denouncing you your personal experience, just trying to understand your POV.
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    Well, OK, let's say that's all true. Then, why don't American's also dislike higher gas consumption? And, don't all automatics use more fuel than their manual counterparts, whether they are European or not?

    I'm still not seeing the connection there as to why Europeans accept the manual transmission more, just based on those two arguments.

    Thanks!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    American driving skills aren't very good either. They drive automatics because they don't know HOW to drive stickshifts. Most Europeans do.

    Automatics aren't that much hungier anymore, if at all. It's more related to laziness and habit and how people are "weaned" on (and off) their parents' cars when they learn to drive.

    So really the best answer is "history".
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    I think some of you have no idea of what is involved in driving in stop and go traffic in a major jamb. This might involve literally hundreds of gear shifts to go just a few miles. You can be stuck in traffic for hours. Its not a pretty picture. Personally I perfer a manual and am thankful my situation allows the use of one.
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    I'll certainly admit to not having any idea about Houston-style traffic jams. I'll take a side street and leave early before even putting myself in that situation if I can help it! After all, doesn't good driving involve using one's head as well as one's feet? :P
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    Wow. I tend to keep my cars for about a decade, so I hadn't realized that automatics had improved that much. It used to be that they used so much fluid that it made them heavier and thus compromised the mileage. So I guess they're using lighter gears (uh-oh) or less fluid!

    So, anyway, what this is all boiling down to, it seems, is CULTURE. The American expectation of machines to do all our work and even our thinking for us. Americans prefer automatic transmissions because they prefer not to think about driving, whereas Europeans prefer to control the machine rather than the machine control them?

    What a difference an ocean makes!

    I wonder, then, what about Canadians? Are they more like Europeans, or more like US, in their driving preferences? Gee, I wish some Europeans or Canadians would give their POV, this is interesting!
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    American driving skills aren't very good either. They drive automatics because they don't know HOW to drive stickshifts. Most Europeans do.

    I do not see any real benefit to a manual transmission for the average driver.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    If nothing else, there should be a fuel economy benefit, shouldn't there?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Perhaps "benefit" is too strong a word, but I do think that a manual transmission encourages better driver control and better driving skills. But it is somewhat subtle. Also, on the lower-powered European cars (which are taxed differently than our cars), a manual transmission can make a big difference in off the line performance from stoplight to stoplight.

    I drive in crushing, mind-numbing, collosal traffic snarls all the time, and really, a modern stickshift car with a light clutch and good shifter is a piece of cake. What after all is the big difference between raising your left foot up and down on a clutch pedal or driving an automatic with the "left foot as brake foot" method? (which many people do).

    I like a manual transmission for:

    engine braking on turns or hills

    getting the exact right gear at the exact right moment you want it

    more fun to drive

    easier to repair a clutch than an entire automatic transmission

    slightly better fuel economy

    DOWNSIDE:

    lower resale value (usually, depending on the car)

    if your friends or spouse borrow it they might not drive it correctly

    hard to drink coffee and drive
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    if your friends or spouse borrow it they might not drive it correctly

    Actually, the fact that most of them CANNOT drive it could be put on the upside! ;)

    I really miss, miss, miss having a manual tranny... :cry:
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    I will grant you that has mileage might be better depending on the model.

    As for the transmission, except for certain transmission models (i.e. Ford Taurus, Dodge minivans, etc.), transmissions pretty much seem to last forever with minimal maintenance.

    Personally, I prefer having both hands on the wheel to maintain control of the vehicle when necessary. Also, I prefer to have a vehicle that anyone can drive in an emergency or safety situation.
  • electrobuzzelectrobuzz Member Posts: 47
    "Personally, I prefer having both hands on the wheel to maintain control of the vehicle when necessary."

    A quick shift to the proper gear for the situation and then back to 10 and 2 on the steering wheel allows better vehicle control than relying on braking (or flooring it).

    Agreed on the emergency situation... but oh well, it's an unlikely scenario, and the fun and control of a manual is well worth it. And all those non-emergency situations keep my Corolla parked for the stick-disabled. :)
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I would agree that MANUAL tannies tend to last forever, but not autos. While autos have become more fuel efficient, they've also become more complex and if anything, less durable. The two speed Dura-Glides of yesteryear were durable. The 5, 6, and 7 speed autos of today, not so much so.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You got that right. You lose the automatic on a 5-7 year old used car with high miles and you might as well throw the car away for what it's going to cost you. As for 6 or 7 speed computer-controlled automatics, I can't even imagine what those will cost to overhaul in the future. I'd imagine you wouldn't overhaul them at all...just test 'em and crate 'em up and order a rebuilt.

    Destroying a manual transmission requires a more or less conscious effort on the part of the driver...he has to either be a meat-handed shifter, or allow the trans to run out of oil, or run the trans way past the time when "warning noises" tell him to replace the bearings. Then the bearings wear so badly they destroy the main shaft, etc.

    But automatics (as we've learned from reading these boards) seem to just "die" of a massive coronary without warning half the time.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I've seen manuals go 200, 300K or more with no maitenance whatsoever, not even a replacement clutch. Try doing that with one of these high-tech mega-multi-gear autos. Ain't gonna happen.

    To be totally fair, I would guess many auto trannies fail because people don't change the fluid often enough, or even corrrectly. If you don't change the fluid at all, or if when you do change the fluid you only drain the tranny instead of have it flushed, you're probably going to experience a failure much sooner than someone who has their tranny flushed at least every 30K miles. However, even doing this won't make an auto last as long as a manual.
  • electrobuzzelectrobuzz Member Posts: 47
    great dicussion, folks. I'm thrilled this post is back alive... dicussing one of the "coolest" aspects of this generations Corolla.. :shades:
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    That's "discussion", and I agree! I'm learning a lot here in just a few posts.

    Oh, and nobody should drive with their hands 10-2 anymore. I just heard that the other day. That's old-fashioned positioning for cars back when they had bigger steering wheels. I keep my hands more like 8-4 or even 7-5. On TV they said any higher than that, and you risk knocking yourself in the head should your airbag deploy! If you'll notice on your Corolla, those triangular-shaped spaces are just where you should put your hands!

    I almost want a manual-shift Corolla to replace my '98 with now - do I dare re-learn after 20 years? LOL
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    I heard you want your hands on the modern (airbag) steering wheel at 3 and 9. That way ifn it deploys your hands/arms go out to the sides and dont interfer or are injured by the airbag.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I've read 8-4 before, and I have to say that I don't understand it. I do not feel at all in control of my car with my hands so low. It's 10-2 for me regardless of how "old-fashioned" anyone thinks it is. Actually, I really try to go 9-3 because of the airbag concerns kneisl1 mentions, but that's not as natural as 10-2.

    I've never heard 7-5. That sounds like it's designed to make it easy for your knees to take over. Scary. ;)
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Personally I drive my ECHO grasping the wheel lightly with my thumb and index finger of my left hand at the seven o clock position. I tried using mind control but I cant get it to work. :P
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    If 7-5 is touching your knees, then you've got your tilt wheel far too low! LOL I don't know about other makes of cars, but If you'll notice the holes in a Corolla's steering wheel are designed for your fingers to fit through. Otherwise, in my opinion, a steering wheel could just be a solid disc with a raised ridged area to grip on. 8-4 and 7-5 keep the car in the road just fine, for me, until commonsense tells me to move them for turning!

    Most of the time I drive one-handed anyway unless there are weather situations that compromise my sense of control. Know your vehicle, know yourself, I say! ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    And if my tilt wheel is NOT near my knees with a 7-5 position, the airbag is aimed directly at my face.

    Driving one-handed is something I do from time to time as well. It's not a smart thing to do. Weather conditions are irrelevant - you cannot predict what someone else around you, in front of you, behind you, whatever, is going to do to you at any given second. Why take the chance on not being prepared?
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    Well, I guess that would fall under "paying attention to the other drivers on the road while driving". I've been driving this way for over 25 years, with and without airbags. You drive your way, I drive mine, I suppose. [shrug]
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Ohhkay... :)

    I guess I was looking for an explanation of how 8-4 or 7-5 is the best way to hold the wheel because I'm genuinely confused about that.

    I hadn't heard the 7-5 previously, but I have heard the 8-4 and I don't get it.
  • allcarsrcoolallcarsrcool Member Posts: 113
    Sorry... never driven stick... just thought that with cars getting quieter and quieter that it was hard to hear the engine...
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    On TV they said any higher than that, and you risk knocking yourself in the head should your airbag deploy!

    Urban legend. The only way your hands could ever get between your head and the airbag is if they were placed directly over the center portion of the steering wheel where the horn sensor is. If they are anywhere on the outer wheel itself, they will be kept outside the path of the airbag.
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    Well, of course, you may have reason to consider yourself an authority on the matter, I don't know. Bottom line is, YOU drive however you like. I do believe, however, your urban legend (or did you mean urban myth) statement is incorrect, though.

    I haven't learned how to link, never wanted to get that deep into these forums, but if you go here, they can explain the reasoning better than I can.

    I've swiped a short clip from the article:

    "The 2006 edition of the Minnesota Drivers Manual on page 31, Airbag Safety Suggestions section says, "Try to maintain at least 10 inches between yourself and the steering wheel. Keep your hands on the 8 and 4 o'clock or 9 to 3 o'clock position on the steering wheel. Avoid the 10 and 2 o'clock position. Keep your thumbs turned out on the steering wheel."

    "Certainly drivers should avoid holding their hands in the airbag danger zone: over the top of the wheel, over the airbag cover, and on the bottom," says Dr. David Roberts, Emergency Department physician at North Memorial Medical Center, who has been tracking airbag injuries. Dr. Roberts advocates that drivers follow this recommendation and keep their hands to the sides of the steering wheel for much of their driving. He also advocates that drivers always keep two hands on the wheel for critical maneuvering of the vehicle in any emergency situation."

    So, again, I'm not telling anybody how to drive, I'm just sharing information. I did notice that on my Corolla they designed the wheel so that your hands are in the right spots. But if you think these people are wrong, then use your own judgment! That's all...
  • ras314ras314 Member Posts: 43
    My experaince with automatics has been so poor that I refused to buy a Corolla. Seems they don't sell a manual with ABS? In my area we have deer and elk frequently on the highways at night and you really don't want to skid off the hwy trying to stop.
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    If you read your linked story again, you will see that nowhere does it say that the 10-2 position results in hitting yourself in the face. The dummy would have had injuries to its arms, but mostly because they had it tightly gripping the wheel in an awkward way with the thumbs completely wrapped around the wheel.

    In fact, your link confirms my statement that the only way you can hit yourself in the face is if you are honking your horn (if you have a center-mounted horn) at the time the airbag is deployed.

    On the first car, the hands were placed at the 10 and the 2 o'clock positions (true grip) with the thumbs inside the wheel. When the airbag deployed, the left arm rocketed off the wheel, striking the windshield pillar and then striking the left side glass. The paint was removed by the scraping of the airbag from the inner medial aspect of both forearms. The right arm stayed clamped to the wheel and was bent by the deploying airbag with great force. In a real person, something would have given and broken between the thumb and the forearm. The paint was removed from the entire inner surface of the arm and the top of the thumb and was deposited onto the airbag fabric. The plastic cover flaps of the airbag housing contacted the inner wrists of both arms with the force of the opening airbag.
    When driving, it is important to note that honking your horn at the moment of a crash can be dangerous too, because the horn button is often right in the center of the wheel - right where the airbag comes out! This can place the hands and the arms right over the airbag when it deploys, and the hands and forearm can be punched into the face. Some manufacturers are moving the horn and cruise controls to the sides of the wheel to avoid this scenario.
  • ctdbachctdbach Member Posts: 1
    I too have noticed - it's one of the reasons I haven't looked at hybrids much - they all come with CRTs now.

    Last purchase we ended up with a sweet little 5 speed Sentra, after looking at Corollas all over town. I'm happy with the Sentra, but looking down the road to the day I have to replace my pickup... I'm wondering what will happen when Toyota goes "all hybrid" - will any of these new hybrids be made with manuals?
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Probably not. Hybrids are frauds like bottled water. Eventually they will be outed. I hope!
  • electrobuzzelectrobuzz Member Posts: 47
    How about E85, that requires more energy to produce than is saved in using it? Meanwhile, milk prices climb.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    How about the EUs "green: policies where comapnies can pullute all they want if they buy credits in other companies who dont pullute as much?
  • tundradudetundradude Member Posts: 588
    My 95 Corolla had 217K on it and it still had the original clutch. I bought an Element and it also has a manual.
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    I think that's perfect for you and your dogs, man.
  • zeenozeeno Member Posts: 1
    I agree, the demand for the manual transmission has declined to nearly zero, especially on a compact car. While I personally prefer a manual I'm in the minority.

    Secondly, as an ex-racer, and Toyota mechanic, I can say that the electronically controlled automatic transmission is no longer like the old automatics. These new autos, are very reliable, take very little horsepower and run cool an reliably. They are extremely durable and every bit as reliable as a manual transmission. In addition, if your's has a gated floor mount shifter, you can manually shift it and have a degree of control for up shifts and engine braking on down shifts. It's win-win.

    When I bought my Yaris S Hatchback there was not one manual trans to be found in the state. Because I had an immediate need for the car, I could not wait and order one. After a months ownership, I'm very pleased with the auto trans, and find it's performance is very good.

    I could not be happier.
  • ttaittai Member Posts: 114
    I was first interested in the Honda Fit because I thought the paddle shifter would be fun. It wasn't all that. I bought the Yaris with the auto and I love the gated shifter. I downshift to 3rd then 2nd in a corner and accelerate out. The Yaris holds second until you shift to 3rd. It's just way more fun than the old clutch manual.
    Here's a secret. The auto does a better job than you in chosing the gears for the best fuel mileage.
  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    In the Seattle Tacoma area, there are manual Yaris available. I'm not sure of the exact breakdown. Actually there aren't lots of Yaris, period. Lots of Corollas. We've always had Manual Corollas. Again, I can't give you an accurate breakdown. Saw this topic while looking for some info on '09 Corolla and just had to jump in. I know it's off-topic, but there are LOTS of Scion XB's with Manual tranny's around here. XD's with manual, too, but they are not as common in either tranny as the XB.
  • dakedake Member Posts: 131
    I live in Houston, and as much as I love a manual transmission the traffic here is AWFUL and it only makes it worse in stop and go if you are constantly shifting up and down. Give me clear roads and some nice twisty turns and I'm a stick driver all the way - but bumper to bumper traffic to and from work 5 days a week and you gotta have an auto.

    The funny thing is, the newest automatic transmissions appear to post the same or higher mpg's than sticks. I think the computers have finally gotten smarter than we are!
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    ...I test drove two new Civics a few weeks ago, one a manual and one an auto, and I actually liked the auto better. I think it was because it has a 5 speed auto and the tranny always seems to be in the proper gear at the proper time. One reason I've never liked autos in the past is because the traditional 3 and 4 speed autos always seemed to either be in too low of a gear which revved the engine unnecessarily high, or too high of gear and was lugging the engine. I'm also getting older and the idea of me not having to do the shifting anymore is becoming more and more appealing to me.
  • occupant1occupant1 Member Posts: 412
    I drove a new 5-speed Cobalt this morning and was very satisfied with its performance. I was told by the salesperson that this was the first 5-speed 4-door Cobalt he had ever seen, and it had been on the lot a while. I didn't have time to drive an automatic, but I imagine I would have been pleased with it. In fact, I am rethinking buying that black 4-door 5-speed Cobalt for three reasons:

    1) Automatics have better resale value
    2) Automatics get mileage equivalent to current 5-speeds
    3) My wife refuses to learn to drive a standard

    But I want to get the stick because:

    1) difficulty of finding a 4-door 5-speed with no options in black and I FOUND ONE
    2) rarity of having a 4-door 5-speed
    3) I like to shift my own gears and upshift early for mileage when appropriate
    4) I haven't owned a stickshift car in 5 years (2 trucks, but no cars)

    I've had a number of small 5-speed cars before, a VW Scirocco, a Datsun 210, 2 Escorts, 2 Tempos, a Colt Vista, a '97 Accent, an '86 Civic, and a '90 Sentra. All of them were pleasant and even fun to drive with the stick. Some of these I have driven or owned the automatic version (210, Escort, Tempo) and was unimpressed compared to the standards offered. I've also driven a 4-speed Escort and a 4-speed Civic and those were even better with the wider ratios.

    If I had one complaint about modern 5-speed cars, it's that the final drives are wound too tight (numerically higher) and the engines still race at highway speeds. The whole point of having an overdrive fifth gear is for cruising on the highway and the final drive should be low enough to allow low engine speeds at 60-70mph. The Corolla I test drove today was nearing 3000rpm at 70mph and the Cobalt was running much slower at 2500 or so. An automatic Cobalt would probably be closer to 2000rpm which I would consider ideal. A friend of mine with a 1996 Grand Prix, 3.1L/auto OD, runs 1700rpm at 70mph and that's perfect!!!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The most important thing you said is:

    3) My wife refuses to learn to drive a standard

    Assuming your wife will sometimes need to drive this car.. get the automatic.
  • richardsonrichardson Member Posts: 92
    If I had one complaint about modern 5-speed cars, it's that the final drives are wound too tight (numerically higher) and the engines still race at highway speeds. The whole point of having an overdrive fifth gear is for cruising on the highway and the final drive should be low enough to allow low engine speeds at 60-70mph
    I agree completely. I own a 2006 Scion XB with a 5 speed. AT around 70, it running about 3200 RPMS. It shouldn't be geared this high.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I believe the reason these smaller vehicles are geared the way they are is because they don't produce enough torque and HP to pull the vehicle along at highway speeds with the engine running at 2000-2500 RPM without lugging the engine. BTW, I've always understood the terms referred to gearing as the higher or taller the gearing, the lower the RPM's and vise versa.
  • occupant1occupant1 Member Posts: 412
    My wife shouldn't need to drive my car. She has her own. She might get jealous of my new car, but we already decided to let me get a car now, and she'll get one this summer when hers is paid off.

    I also managed to score a 1993 Saturn for $200 on CL, and she can feel free to learn to drive stick on that. I bought it specifically to teach her and the kids how to drive stick without wearing my new car's clutch. It's actually not as bad as the seller said it was, and a fender and a couple mirrors and it'd probably pass inspection and be roadworthy.
  • richardsonrichardson Member Posts: 92
    BTW, I've always understood the terms referred to gearing as the higher or taller the gearing, the lower the RPM's and vise versa.
    I think you're right, I said it backwards. After I wrote it, I wondered if anybody would catch it.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    The ECHOs engine is a high revving engine. It has solid shim adjusted lifters like a high performance motorcycle engine. I believe its redline is something like 6000 rpms. Which is high for a car engine. It is perfectly normal that it displays 3200 rpms at 70 mph. Doesnt mean a thing. My 01 ECHO got 52 mpg crusing at a steady 65 mph a few summers ago on a trip. Thats all that matters. The ECHO/Scion engine is the best small car engine made.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    You're absolutely right about the higher revs not hurting a thing. These engines are made to run at those RPM's. Not sure I agree with your statement that the Echo engine is the best small car engine made though. I'm sure there are a few others that are at least as good if not better (Toyota's 1.6 and 1.8 liter engines and Hondas 1.6, 1.7, and 1.8 liter engines come to mind).
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Well the Corolla 1.8 is a larger version of the ECHO 1.5. The Honda engines were always good. But the one in my wifes 92 Accord had the waterpump driven by the timing belt! All the old Hondas were like that. Not good! I dont know much about the new Honda engines (like the Fit) The Prius uses the same 1.5 liter engine as the ECHO but with a different valve train and probably pistons too. But otherwise the same.
    Yes they are all good and reliable. But the ECHO engine is special.
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