Restoration Advice
Mr_Shiftright
Member Posts: 64,481
in General
This topic is to discuss your planned restoration or a project you are working on at the moment.
Maybe you're a "rookie" and need some advice on how to proceed in general...maybe you're already knee-deep and wondering if someone has some better ideas.
Let's hear about your plans or your progress!
Maybe you're a "rookie" and need some advice on how to proceed in general...maybe you're already knee-deep and wondering if someone has some better ideas.
Let's hear about your plans or your progress!
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In general, with a vehicle like this that hasn't been driven daily (or probably even weekly) for several years, what should I do prior to jumping in it and driving it home (a distance of approximately 60 miles)?
I went down this weekend and put a new set of tires on it, and filled it with fresh gasoline. The oil level looked fine (but dirty), so that'll probably be one of the first things I do when I get it home. The coolant looked to be mostly water, so I thought I might take some antifreeze and siphon out some of the current coolant and add in some antifreeze to try to ward off any overheating problems as best I can. Driving it yesterday to get the tires put about 25 miles on the truck, and it seemed okay; of course it has no gauges other than speedo/fuel, so I won't know if it's overheating until the idiot light comes on.
I've mapped a route that follows secondary roads, so I can keep speeds well below those of the Interstate. I'm planning to go get it early one morning next weekend before things heat up too much (and my wife will be following me, just in case). What else am I forgetting?
The brakes and tires both on it are now maybe 7-8 years old...those'll need to be done sometime. I had the coolant flushed this year and the transmission serviced a few years ago. It's got some kind of small oil leak, but it's so minor I won't bother spending what will surely be a grand to fix it. When it gets hot it smokes some, but not enough to notice on the dipstick, so I just ignore it...I suppose she'll need a valve job sometime. There is barely any rust and the body is a good 10-20-footer, so I am not too concerned there. The interior is also pretty sound.
But for the trip, carry some water at least in case you bust a hose. You can drive home on battery power if you break an alternator belt but you'll need water if you have a leak.
The Chevy smallblock is a pretty good engine, fairly durable. I'm not suggesting you test this out, but they'll survive overheating much better than most modern engines will!
From a little more research I've done on the Web, it sounds like my bigger concern will be if the truck rusts in half before I get it home!
Water pump is easy, valve cover is easy (don't use sealant, just buy a new gasket and spread some white grease on the gasket, then apply it...and don't tighten the valve covers very tightly or you'll bend them (maybe someone has already) and it'll never seal. Shocks are easy and cheap and the AC should be dealt with by a shop specializing in AC. They'll test for leaks as there is no sense putting expensive R12 in a system that's going to vent it in two weeks.
You're only $500 bucks away from a great ride sounds like.
When I backed it into the garage this morning, I noticed a trail of red fluid as well...thought it was transmission fluid at first, but my dad and I checked it out and it's power steering fluid. Don't know if that's an easy fix or not, but for now I'll just make sure to keep the fluid topped off while I tackle the more pressing items.
I posted a few photos on my CarSpace page, but I'll try to post one here to give you an idea of what the truck looks like:
Red fluid? Well before you tear into anything, check the RETURN hose (the low pressure hose) on the power steering box. That's a simple fix.
When my dad was up yesterday he watched under the hood while I started the truck and turned the wheel from side to side; he said the fluid was leaking out of the top of the steering box, like maybe there was a seal or something on top of it that was leaking.
Maybe all you need is a good tune up and valve adjustment?
First off, I'd have a cylinder leakdown test performed on the engine. Using those results, if it indicated dead cylinders, you can decide if you just want to do a "top end overhaul" (just the cylinder heads), which would be okay if the bottom end (rings) were holding compression....or...if the top end and bottom end are worn out you could consider a lower mileage USED engine installed...
But if you let some Mercedes shop start taking apart your engine and you have to bore the cylinders, etc., you are going to be shocked at what this will cost you.
So get the "facts" first...that is HARD DATA...not someone's opinion....and then let us know what the leakdown test says (it will be expressed in "leakdown rate" for each cylinder, and the mechanic can interpret, from the test, where the primary problem is).
good luck with it...
So get that leakdown test and if it's bad news, start looking for a good used engine asap, would be my advice.
I'm just looking for the most efficient/logical way to approach this to avoid doing things twice. I realize this is a very broad question, so if anyone can direct me to a resource (book, website, etc.) that could get me going in the right direction I'd appreciate it.
Seriously though, you're absolutely right, that would not only make working on the engine much easier/efficient, but would also make dealing with the power steering and such easier too. To go that route I'd have to find somewhere else to store the body, since I don't think my wife would give up her side of the garage, and I don't have any place outside to store it. My lot is terribly sloped too; I could probably erect a storage building of some type in the back yard and work on the engine out there, but I'd have to have some type of powered crawler to move it out there and back.
So assuming for now I'd probably be better off (both financially and maritally) having some of the big jobs done professionally, and taking on some of the smaller stuff myself, would there be a logical list of things to have a shop knock out first/at one time?
That was enough to shake me back to reality. I ended up taking it to my regular mechanic who checked it out. I remember he did the valve cover gaskets and front seat, plus put on belts that I had bought (this sucker had 4 of them) for about $230. As for the rear seal, the mechanic simply said it wasn't worth fixing. Not leaking enough. He didn't give me an estimate on it, though; he just said "A lot" :sick:
If I had a stand-alone shop somewhere I'd love to tear into it myself, but at this point in life I just need to get it in good driving shape as quickly as possible.
Actually with a 229 there might be enough room to work in there without pulling the radiator. At least, I remember my Granddad doing the water pump in my Malibu and having plenty of room. Now a couple years later when I did the water pump in my '69 Dart, I pulled the radiator for more room, because the slant six took up a lot of fore/aft space.
I'm guessing though, that if you can get the water pump without pulling the radiator, you can get the front seal? When the mechanic did the front seal on my '89 Gran Fury, I dunno if he pulled the radiator or not. Considering that it was around $250 or less to do the valve cover gaskets, front seal, and the labor for the belts, I'm guessing it wasn't TOO labor intensive on that car.
Thanks
I just bought a 1967 Rolls Royce and the self leveling system is disabled. I am getting wildly different quotes from mechanics as to how much it wil cost to fix it - from five to ten thousand dollars - and also as to whether it is a major or optional repair, some say don't dare drive it until its repaired, yet the system was disabled for over ten years before I bought it.
Does anyone have any advice or comments on this? The front and back systems were disabled at different times from what I understand from the previous owner. I have also heard that Rolls cars from 1965 to 1967 had difficulty with the self leveling systems.
I would appreciate any coomments anyone might have.Thanks. Vernon Stepp, Kansasville Wisconsin
First, here are some of the problems:
1) the engine (350 V8, rebuilt 15 years ago) has been leaking oil for some time - bad - and I recently lost compression in one of the cylinders (100 psi in #3, ~140 psi in the rest, if memory serves), but it was running well before this
2) general overhaul of the brakes is needed
3) doors hang on the hinges (about 1/2"). They latch, but won't close properly
4) we did the body work about 10 years ago, and its still in pretty good shape (other than the doors), but lots of small scratches. Also, the work wasn't top quality - paint looks great (still), but some of the lines could be sharper. Basically, I'd be looking for bondo work other than the doors.
5) I don't know how to really judge the condition of the frame, but there is some rust.
6) Interior could use some work - carpet is faded, driver seat needs to be re upholstered, door panels could be replaced
So how much could this cost to fix if I take it to shops and get it done separately, and how much if I get it restored? I'm not looking for a show car, and don't need all factory parts or anything - I want this to be a good looking and (relatively) reliable everyday car.
My thoughts on cost for those things initially were:
1) replace the engine - $3000-5000
2) brakes - $2000
3) doors - $1000-$2000
4) bodywork and paint - $5000-8000
5) frame - I'd leave this alone unless I did a restore
6) interior - $1000-1500
I guess that totals to around $12,000-18,500, from my estimate. I would guess that a restore would be $20,000-30,000, depending on the condition of the frame, but with better results. Of course, I pretty much pulled these numbers out of the air (which is why I need your help).
My questions are:
a) are these estimates reasonable? and for the individual problems I mentioned?
b) would it be better/cheaper to simply rebuild this engine, rather than replace it?
c) does anybody know offhand what options I have if I replace the engine? is it possible/easy/affordable to put a 454 in there?
d) obviously each shop is different, but any idea how long I could expect everything to take?
e) I live in southern California, would it be cheaper for me to take my car to Nevada or somewhere else that might have lower labor rates to get it repaired?
f) anything I forgot to mention, obviously missed, or need to find out to get better help?
If you made it this far, thanks for your time and patience. Any advice more experienced folks could give would be greatly appreciated, as the sooner I know what to do, the sooner it will be done, and the sooner I'll be cruising down the PCH with the top down.
Thanks!
interior---this will cost you more
doors ---I don't see re-hanging the doors and or replacing the hinges as costing as much as you think
brakes --- might not cost quite that much, depending on whether you need new brake lines (rust issues) and condition of the drums, etc.
The BIG problem with your entire plan is this rusty frame business. I would myself hesitate to put a cosmetically restored body and interior on a rusted frame, as this will devalue the car considerably. of course I don't know what you mean by "rust". If you mean surface rust, well this is just a matter of spending a week or two in misery under the car wire brushing it off and re-painting it as best you can---it won't look great but it will look better than what you have.
But if the frame has actual perforations from rust, especially where the body attaches, this is an ugly thing that needs addressing with a body lift possibly. If the rust in the frame is forward of the firewall, you can do a "front-clip" restoration....just pull off all the sheet metal forward of the windshield, as well as the engine and trans of course, and clean up the frame that way. You'll have a sweet looking engine bay that way, too.
Otherwise, if you aren't prepared to attack the frame, I'd just do the engine and interior and clean up the body as best you can for now until you're ready to tackle it properly. A badly rusted frame will devalue your car 50% at least.
Anyway that's my two cents and yes, a good "street restoration" of a '72 Chevelle ragtop will be worth about $25K....add a few K for the 4-speed if you have one and a little more for the 175HP 350/V8. The 1971s are generally worth more $$$ as you know.
But it's a great car and will always be worth fixing up---but I 'd hate to see you have to do over again. The front clip resto might be a good compromise, depending on where the frame damage is and how bad.
If you are fairly mechanically inclined, you can resonably rebuild the engine. Check this site for rebuild kits.
I have used this company for several years for most the classic Chevrolet engines I rebuild.
http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductId=148
To add:
If this is the origianl engine, DO NOT replace it.
You are better off rebuilding the original engine.
2) general overhaul of the brakes is needed
Most of thses parts are readily available from NAPA or any other name brand parts store.
Total overhaul of the brake system can range around $1500.
3) doors hang on the hinges (about 1/2"). They latch, but won't close properly
The hinges are an easy replacement.
This site has replacement hinges that are a direct bolt on.
Hinges are about $60 each. Figuring 4 hinges, $250 plus shipping. I have used Bob's Impala's for a lot of products.
http://www.impalas.com/product_list.asp?dept=6677&last=4461
4) we did the body work about 10 years ago, and its still in pretty good shape (other than the doors), but lots of small scratches. Also, the work wasn't top quality - paint looks great (still), but some of the lines could be sharper. Basically, I'd be looking for bondo work other than the doors.
Find a good body shop that can do the work. Ask for referances and work they have done on similar vehicles.
Your figures for the body work seem in line.
5) I don't know how to really judge the condition of the frame, but there is some rust.
You can do most the work yourself. Knock off any flaking rust and use products from this company.
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemType=CATEGORY&itemID=372
Eastwood is one of the leading automotive restoration products company.
6) Interior could use some work - carpet is faded, driver seat needs to be re upholstered, door panels could be replaced
Southern California has some of the nation's top interior/upholstery shops. Again, ask for referances and vehicles that they have worked on similar to yours.
As for some of the interior parts, again, see this site.
http://www.impalas.com/product_list.asp?dept=6146&last=4222
Carpet kits range around $150
If so, is there a proportioning valve installed?
Do ALL of the brakes release or do they drag?
With the engine shut off and the booster bled (no vacuum in it), how do the brakes feel?
Who's kit did you install?
That sounds like a vacuum leak either from a line or a "T" fitting.
It sounds like either you have the vacuum hose hooked to the wrong port on the manifold, the check valve isn't working properly or you have a leak in the booster.
Why would you want to make that 57 Chevy non original?
Oh, I know, the disks are far superior but the original drums with power assist weren't bad either.
I love old cars but I'm one of those guys that with the exception of seat belts likes them stock.
Just curious that's all...
The only justification for keeping an old classic with stock brakes, tires and suspension is if you are showing it to be judged. Otherwise, to suffer awful braking and handling, or chronic overheating and bad radio reception for the sake of authenticity seems, to me, and to a lot of other car enthusiasts, as something just a bit too fanatical.
I don't think braking was **that** awful nor did I see many cars overheat unless something was wrong.
I just hate to see an old car "Mickey Moused" but, that's me.
These are weekend drivers, not urban battle cars.
Holes do get drilled and old cars become something other than what they were.
But there are a lot of companies now that are making direct bolt on kits for brakes, transmissions, rear ends and fuel injection.
Most of these kits do not harm the original parts of the vehicle and can be restored easily to stock.
I've done several modifications to add fuel injjection and they don't harm the vehicle at all.
But, these aren't usually daily drivers. I just don't understand why people feel these mods are necessary?
A well tuned carb works just fine. Don't tailgate people or try to take turns at excessive speeds and all of these conversions are totally unnecessary.
These people shouild just use their daily drivers for this.
At the car shows, I am always attracted to the "survivor" cars and not the "Trailer Queens" that have been over restored or the cars that have been
Mickey Mouseder...modified to make them "better".
But, again, that's me.
And really, manual steering on a 60s muscle car is no fun whatsoever, and tons of engine heat wafting throught the firewall on a summer's day isn't either.