A few weeks ago when I took the 59 Land Rover to the auto show I had something like that happen.
On the way back I have to go down this long steep hill. I have been on the hill with that truck many times but never when it was 100 degrees out and never after I had already driving for 45 minutes.
At the bottom of the hill is a stop sign. As I come down the hill I keep it in third for some engine braking to help out the little un-powered drum brakes. It would probably be better to down shift to second but that is a PITA because of the non-syncrho second gear. I can up shift from first to second easily enough but I never really mastered down shifting into second. Every other time I have been down the hill that worked fine but this time was different. As I get to the steepest part of hill I push the brakes a little harder to slow down and I get nothing. I push the pedal to the floor and can just barely keep from accelerating.
All the ambient heat and the previous 45 minutes of driving must have overheated the brakes. I manage to down shift into second with only a little bit of gear grinding. That slows me down a good bit but I am still going to fast to stop for the sign. I am pumping the brakes trying to get some life back into them and there are still cars in the intersection. I lay on the horn a few times but they are clueless.
Luckily the hill flattens out enough right before the stop sign that I can slow down enough to stop about two car lengths past the line.
My whole body is drenched in sweat and its not just from the 100 plus degree heat. I have a death grip on the wheel and I am just sitting there letting my heart rate come down some. At that point I would really have liked some disc brakes.
I've had this happen to me many times in driving older vehicles; I'm keeping a safe distance, but then someone entering the street looks and sees an old vehicle and assumes it can't be going too fast, so they pull out in front of me. Of course, I WAS driving the same speed as everyone else, but I can't slow down as quickly, so I have to take evasive action to keep from plowing into them.
Which is why one of the first things I do when I encounter one of these situations where I have to stop quickly (no matter the age of the car I'm driving) is to check my rearview mirror to make certain someone isn't about to plow into me. One week into driving my new car I came to one of those sudden stops on the Interstate on my way to work, and as I'm screeching to a halt (without hitting anyone, thanks to my 4-wheel discs w/ABS) I check my mirror and I see a guy coming at me who has his head turned looking at something in the passenger seat...and driving something like a '78 Cutlass. I pumped my brakes a couple times to flash my brake lights just in case and braced for the impact, heard the tires squeal and then watched as the guy slid past me in the emergency lane and stopped about a car length in front of me. When every car on the street had drum brakes those cars were relatively safe, because everyone was working with similar reaction times/distances. But driving an older car today on the same playing field with much more advanced cars (and in many cases much less advanced drivers!) puts you at an unfair advantage.
If a car is too valuable to make these mods to, then realistically it should only be driven on rare occasions (or trailered). If it's a daily driver, it needs to be equipped to survive the daily drive. Given a choice I'd rather see old cars on the street with modern drivetrains/brake/safety systems versus only seeing them in a museum somewhere.
I had thought about getting my '57 DeSoto converted to disk brakes. Until I found out that it would probably cost about $1800 to get the front brakes done (included upgrading it to a dual master cylinder). Once I found out one of the ingredients for the rear setup was a 1970-74 E-body rear-end, I just about gave up. I don't imagine that there are too many E-body donor cars around, considering that people want those to build their Hemi Cuda clone and such.
If I had to drive this thing on a daily basis, I might consider it. But actually, when I did drive it more often, I never really had any complaints about how its "Total Contact" braking system performed. Now keeping it adjusted, working on it, etc, is way annoying because it's overly complicated. Two wheel cylinders up front per wheel, plus needing a special puller to get the back drums off do not exactly bring a smile to my face.
I'll probably just end up having its brake system put back to original spec. Probably a lot cheaper and much less annoying in the long run than digging up Volare copcar rotors, front calipers off God-knows what else, '79-85 Eldorado rear disc setups, an E-body rear-end, and all sorts of other odds and ends.
As for disc brakes versus drum, what I'm about to say will probably make Walter P. Chrysler roll over in his grave, as he always put a strong emphasis on good brakes...but I swear I can lock up the all-disc setup on my 2000 Intrepid much more easily than I could the 10" non-power drums on my '68 Dart. I think I read somewhere though, that braking ability was never a strong suit of the Mopar LH platform.
A lot of folks, myself included have put older bodies on newer chassis. An example, my 70 Chevy 3/4 ton 4x4 is on a 72 frame. The reason, because the 70 had drum brakes. The 72 had power steering and power disk brakes. While that is a minor example, in the late 70s, it wasn't uncommon for us to find vehicles like 48s and put them on certain Chevy frames, like Impala frames, for the power steering, power brakes and that.
Recently, there has been an increase in replica bodies going on tubed frames or folks finding body parts and assembling them on different frames. While these vehicles end up not being anywhere near stock, they are still very nice vehicles.
I'm not a purist when it comes to the classics, I grew up as a hot rodder. So I can see people's point when they modify a vehicle. I can also see the purist's point. It is a shame to chop up a beautiful 57.
But here's the flip side. Usually vehicles I hot rodded (ok, so they were a bit chopped), most were to a point where it would have been extremely costly to restore to stock. Turning them into hot rods was far easier and less costly to do. So it was the natural thing to do.
For something really strange, I heard early 1950s Chrysler New Yorkers had disc brakes, but not like we commonly think of disc brakes - i.e. a rotor/caliper - rather a disc that presses against the inside of a drum. Did I imagine this or did such a setup exist? I'd also like to see a picture/ diagram of what "Total Contact" brakes looked like as well as the strange disc brakes of the early '50s New Yorker.
Lemko, I do recall hearing about some odd disk brake setup like that too, on the early 50's New Yorkers. I don't know much about it.
As for Total Contact braking, I just tried a quick Google search, and couldn't find any online diagrams. I have a '57 DeSoto service manual packed away somewhere though, and I guess I could scan it in for you. Basically, it had an upper cylinder that would press one of the shoes against the drum. I forget if it was the forward shoe or the rear shoe though. The lower cylinder would press the other shoe. It provided more even braking, because instead of applying the bulk of the force at two spots towards the top of the drum, it would apply it more evenly, as the two pressure points would be directly opposite each other on the drum.
The 1957 DeSoto and Chrysler also used beefy 12" drums, which no doubt helped with stopping power. I think Dodge used 11" drums, and I'm not sure what Plymouth used.
Just for comparison, something like a 1973 Grand Am or GTO, which probably weighed more than a '57 DeSoto and, with the 455 at least, was probably more powerful, only came standard with 9.5" drums all around. Basically, the same thing the Corvair used to use, but in a package that was probably about 1200-1500 pounds heavier! :surprise: The disk brake option, IIRC, came with 11" drums in back, so hopefully the majority of them were equipped that way!
I don't think there are but a small small percentage of cars that are "too valuable" to modify. I mean, thousands of people race very...and I mean VERY...valuable cars in vintage track events. My neighbor (old guy) parks his 300SL roadster on the street sometimes...he loves to drive it (real slow).
Speaking just for myself, someone sheltering a $10,000 very common "classic" car and pleading that it's too valuable to alter in any way....well, that's really stretching it and strikes me, at any rate, as nothing more than an ego trip and making a big ado about nothing.
Brakes, safety equipment and good suspension are no different to me than life preservers, modern running lights and improved engine in an old yacht or runabout.
Well, when I had my old cars I must have been lucky because I never had anything like that happen. I limited my freeway driving and I was very careful.
I just think the dangers of driving a stock, well maintained older car with drum brakes and stock suspension is very much overblown.
Anything CAN happen I suppose but to me, I like my cars as they were when they were built.
I can't remember my '65 exactly, but it's usually a round silver metal cylinder with a single 2-prong (without trailer) plug hanging around under the dash.
I've got a problem. I've got a 74 Nova 350 4bbl. I put on an edelbrock intake manifold and carb. When I try and start her she'll start right up the first time and then die really soon after. Then When I try again she doesn't turn over and I can see my fan rock backwards after I lay off the ignition. Not freely, the belts are tight, but it jerks back about 15 degrees. And Fuel spits out the top of the carb. just a little.
She was overheating after about 2 minutes yesterday too. The coolant was boiling and spitting out the reservoir. (Bad Thermostat?)
I drained some oil and I think I have coolant in the oil. Don't know how it's gettin in there but I know that that's a really bad thing.
What's goin on? What do I have to do to get her back in shape?
Best I can say is get it running and see what you got there. This is not a particularly valuable car so you have to be careful how deep you get into it. A full restoration seems out of the question at this time. So first make sure you don't have major mechanical issues.
Pull the number 1 plug, put a compression gauge on it and bump the starter over til you are on the comperssion stroke. Then set the dampner mark to TDC. Then make sure the rotor is pointing directly at 1 plug wire tower.
Then start the vehicle and set the timing to 10 deg BTC and see how it runs. You may have to adjust the timing a little from there.
The outside is in good shape except the paint job and all that but. I can't get the hood open.. any ideas how to get the hood open? I tried the hood lever under the dash and it does nothing.
I havent really restored a car. Ive been workin on a 67' Mustang that was sitting for 4 yeats and Im gettin pretty close to bein finnished. all thats left is interior, and paint job. so I'm tryin to figure out where to start on this car.
Well, you've been around the block with a '60s car. As for the hood, the cable's rusted or broken, as you probably guessed. I don't know how to get in, but there must be a way, so maybe someone else here knows how so you can change the fluids, battery, etc.
Easiest thing here is to park it near the curb with a for sale sign including the words, "BRAND NEW BATTERY."
Does the '68 Lincoln have a forward tilting hood? Yes, I know you can't open it yet, heh.
A shop manual might have some helpful maintenance/repair tips for that sort of thing.
Older models had a small access port through the front inner splash panel on the driver's side which allowed for a long metal rod or very long screw driver to reach and release the hood latch.
Maybe it's the same for your '68?
Would need a flex light and probably a good bit of patience, too.
A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
Yeah, I was wondering that, too. I had a '69 Dart with a slant six, and its choke could get a little annoying, especially in cold, damp weather. I just learned to live with it though. :sick:
My '68 Dart, which has a 318 V-8, has a flap inside the passenger-side exhaust manifold. These things would tend to rust and fail with age. I had to replace the passenger side manifold, and found one in the junkyard. I remember the guys at the junkyard heated the thing up for me, enough to move that flap in the open position. Guess it's better for them to fail open than closed!
Not knowing what the choke problem is that they're having, I guess the first thing to do is get a can of spray cleaner and hose it all down. I don't remember - what is the heat source that causes the choke to open on those?
I don't remember - what is the heat source that causes the choke to open on those?
Well on my '68 Dart 318, my understanding was that it was the flap in the exhaust manifold. It would hold some of the heat and pressure back, and cause some spring thingy to heat up and open the choke. In theory...when it was working!
More often than not though, I suspect a screwdriver down the throat was what usually held the choke open! :sick:
Yeah that's it. That's the same one. I guess you were the only one to figure out that I meant "Divorce choke". It's a heat sensitive spring that is mounted on either the exhaust or intake manifold. It responds to the temperature of the engine and opens or closes the flap accordingly.
I never knew that's what they're called, learn something every day. Do you have a manual (Chilton's, etc.) for it? There's probably an adjustment procedure listed, with clearances between various parts for cold and hot operation. Also, aside from adjustment is every thing clean and free to move?
Right, that's a good idea. I got a Chilton's manual that covers my 74 Nova. I coverted it to electric choke with the new carb. Should be in there. I've heard that you just bed the rod that connects to the carb but didn't want to go and do that without knowing for sure.
Don't make 'em like they used to. These days I'd probably have to pay some geek to hook up his computer and punch numbers. Oh What would we do without them. We'd probably have to drive the streets with other people who knew a little bit about cars or at least had a respect for the machinery. Too bad.
I have a 74 Dart with a 7 1/4, 9 bolt rear end that needs a spider gear kit. Anybody with suggestions are appreciated. I've called around every where that I know of and gone on-line and cant find them anywhere. Thanks
When my '72 Duster diff went out I went to the junk yard (sorry, 'recyclers') and got a replacement rear axle. May be easier that way. I think the ratio is on a metal tag.
Edit-and by easier I mean I swapped out the whole axle, pretty simple operation (did it in my dorm's parking lot one Saturday).
Where are you located? I'm in Maryland and know a couple places that specialize in old Mopars. I dunno how they'd handle shipping, though. One of them is a junkyard, and the other is a repair shop that specializes mainly in older Mopars, like 50's and 60's, but may be able to help with something like that. He had two '65-66 Dart wagons sitting out in front when I was by there on Wednesday.
You could also try www.moparmailinglist.com. Someone there may be able to help you out. Good luck! I've had two Darts, a '69 slant six and a '68 318, and loved 'em both!
I'd guess that the easiest thing to do would be to transplant a head that already has hydraulic lifters. I'd imagine those old stovebolts weren't designed for hydraulic lifters from the start, so the engineers probably had to make up a bunch of new parts to do it.
Right, it's OHV, but aren't the lifters in the block, riding on the cam? I would think they'd need oil pressure, which might not have been included in the solid lifter block.
Between 1950 & 1957 solids came with every stick transmission car and truck. Hydraulics came only with Powerglide cars. From 1958 to 1962 every block was drilled for hydraulics - you must have a block that has the oiling passage drilled thru the lifter bores for the hydraulics to receive oil. Also the cam grinds are different for hydraulic vs. solid. And for 1958 thru 1962 235 engines, you must use a lifter with chamfered sides to prevent shutting off rocker arm oil. If your 1955 235 was originally equipped with a stick it would not have the oil passeges drilled. Check out www.inliners.net for extensive info on the old Chevy motors. With the castings numbers shown on the inliners site, you can verify what year motor you have as it may have been swapped out over the years. Also Patrick's Antique Cars & Trucks in Casa Grande, AZ has parts & info for the old Chevy's. According to Patrick, NO satisfactory hydraulic lifters are in current production (current lifters made over seas apparently no good). As a result, he offers NO hydraulic cams & lifters. You need to verify what year your block was cast. Also the stamped numbers on the distributor side of the block will tell if the original build was for stick or Powerglide, but you will need to find out how to decode the numbers. An old time Bone Yard may still have the books or you could try the inliners site & ask for help. If by chance you actually have a latter block, you could convert to hydraulic lifters & cam it you could locate NOS GM lifters. Also if the case, you could get a hydraulic cam & lifters from Clifford Performance, but bring $bucks. Hope this helps -
Comments
On the way back I have to go down this long steep hill. I have been on the hill with that truck many times but never when it was 100 degrees out and never after I had already driving for 45 minutes.
At the bottom of the hill is a stop sign. As I come down the hill I keep it in third for some engine braking to help out the little un-powered drum brakes. It would probably be better to down shift to second but that is a PITA because of the non-syncrho second gear. I can up shift from first to second easily enough but I never really mastered down shifting into second. Every other time I have been down the hill that worked fine but this time was different. As I get to the steepest part of hill I push the brakes a little harder to slow down and I get nothing. I push the pedal to the floor and can just barely keep from accelerating.
All the ambient heat and the previous 45 minutes of driving must have overheated the brakes. I manage to down shift into second with only a little bit of gear grinding. That slows me down a good bit but I am still going to fast to stop for the sign. I am pumping the brakes trying to get some life back into them and there are still cars in the intersection. I lay on the horn a few times but they are clueless.
Luckily the hill flattens out enough right before the stop sign that I can slow down enough to stop about two car lengths past the line.
My whole body is drenched in sweat and its not just from the 100 plus degree heat. I have a death grip on the wheel and I am just sitting there letting my heart rate come down some. At that point I would really have liked some disc brakes.
Which is why one of the first things I do when I encounter one of these situations where I have to stop quickly (no matter the age of the car I'm driving) is to check my rearview mirror to make certain someone isn't about to plow into me. One week into driving my new car I came to one of those sudden stops on the Interstate on my way to work, and as I'm screeching to a halt (without hitting anyone, thanks to my 4-wheel discs w/ABS) I check my mirror and I see a guy coming at me who has his head turned looking at something in the passenger seat...and driving something like a '78 Cutlass. I pumped my brakes a couple times to flash my brake lights just in case and braced for the impact, heard the tires squeal and then watched as the guy slid past me in the emergency lane and stopped about a car length in front of me. When every car on the street had drum brakes those cars were relatively safe, because everyone was working with similar reaction times/distances. But driving an older car today on the same playing field with much more advanced cars (and in many cases much less advanced drivers!) puts you at an unfair advantage.
If a car is too valuable to make these mods to, then realistically it should only be driven on rare occasions (or trailered). If it's a daily driver, it needs to be equipped to survive the daily drive. Given a choice I'd rather see old cars on the street with modern drivetrains/brake/safety systems versus only seeing them in a museum somewhere.
If I had to drive this thing on a daily basis, I might consider it. But actually, when I did drive it more often, I never really had any complaints about how its "Total Contact" braking system performed. Now keeping it adjusted, working on it, etc, is way annoying because it's overly complicated. Two wheel cylinders up front per wheel, plus needing a special puller to get the back drums off do not exactly bring a smile to my face.
I'll probably just end up having its brake system put back to original spec. Probably a lot cheaper and much less annoying in the long run than digging up Volare copcar rotors, front calipers off God-knows what else, '79-85 Eldorado rear disc setups, an E-body rear-end, and all sorts of other odds and ends.
As for disc brakes versus drum, what I'm about to say will probably make Walter P. Chrysler roll over in his grave, as he always put a strong emphasis on good brakes...but I swear I can lock up the all-disc setup on my 2000 Intrepid much more easily than I could the 10" non-power drums on my '68 Dart. I think I read somewhere though, that braking ability was never a strong suit of the Mopar LH platform.
An example, my 70 Chevy 3/4 ton 4x4 is on a 72 frame.
The reason, because the 70 had drum brakes.
The 72 had power steering and power disk brakes.
While that is a minor example, in the late 70s, it wasn't uncommon for us to find vehicles like 48s and put them on certain Chevy frames, like Impala frames, for the power steering, power brakes and that.
Recently, there has been an increase in replica bodies going on tubed frames or folks finding body parts and assembling them on different frames.
While these vehicles end up not being anywhere near stock, they are still very nice vehicles.
I'm not a purist when it comes to the classics, I grew up as a hot rodder. So I can see people's point when they modify a vehicle. I can also see the purist's point. It is a shame to chop up a beautiful 57.
But here's the flip side. Usually vehicles I hot rodded (ok, so they were a bit chopped), most were to a point where it would have been extremely costly to restore to stock. Turning them into hot rods was far easier and less costly to do. So it was the natural thing to do.
As for Total Contact braking, I just tried a quick Google search, and couldn't find any online diagrams. I have a '57 DeSoto service manual packed away somewhere though, and I guess I could scan it in for you. Basically, it had an upper cylinder that would press one of the shoes against the drum. I forget if it was the forward shoe or the rear shoe though. The lower cylinder would press the other shoe. It provided more even braking, because instead of applying the bulk of the force at two spots towards the top of the drum, it would apply it more evenly, as the two pressure points would be directly opposite each other on the drum.
The 1957 DeSoto and Chrysler also used beefy 12" drums, which no doubt helped with stopping power. I think Dodge used 11" drums, and I'm not sure what Plymouth used.
Just for comparison, something like a 1973 Grand Am or GTO, which probably weighed more than a '57 DeSoto and, with the 455 at least, was probably more powerful, only came standard with 9.5" drums all around. Basically, the same thing the Corvair used to use, but in a package that was probably about 1200-1500 pounds heavier! :surprise: The disk brake option, IIRC, came with 11" drums in back, so hopefully the majority of them were equipped that way!
Speaking just for myself, someone sheltering a $10,000 very common "classic" car and pleading that it's too valuable to alter in any way....well, that's really stretching it and strikes me, at any rate, as nothing more than an ego trip and making a big ado about nothing.
Brakes, safety equipment and good suspension are no different to me than life preservers, modern running lights and improved engine in an old yacht or runabout.
I just think the dangers of driving a stock, well maintained older car with drum brakes and stock suspension is very much overblown.
Anything CAN happen I suppose but to me, I like my cars as they were when they were built.
But, I see the other side too.
Those were called Center Plane brakes and they were a nightmare to work on and keep adjusted. The rears were a nasty b**ch to beat those drums off.
When everything was working as designed they worked OK but they weren't Chrysler's high point in engineering.
You guys are talking about cars that I drove as a kid, as "old" cars.
I can remember when there weren't that old. :sick:
I've got a problem. I've got a 74 Nova 350 4bbl. I put on an edelbrock intake manifold and carb. When I try and start her she'll start right up the first time and then die really soon after. Then When I try again she doesn't turn over and I can see my fan rock backwards after I lay off the ignition. Not freely, the belts are tight, but it jerks back about 15 degrees. And Fuel spits out the top of the carb. just a little.
She was overheating after about 2 minutes yesterday too. The coolant was boiling and spitting out the reservoir. (Bad Thermostat?)
I drained some oil and I think I have coolant in the oil. Don't know how it's gettin in there but I know that that's a really bad thing.
What's goin on? What do I have to do to get her back in shape?
Thank you.
Pull the number 1 plug, put a compression gauge on it and bump the starter over til you are on the comperssion stroke.
Then set the dampner mark to TDC.
Then make sure the rotor is pointing directly at 1 plug wire tower.
Then start the vehicle and set the timing to 10 deg BTC and see how it runs. You may have to adjust the timing a little from there.
I havent really restored a car. Ive been workin on a 67' Mustang that was sitting for 4 yeats and Im gettin pretty close to bein finnished. all thats left is interior, and paint job. so I'm tryin to figure out where to start on this car.
Easiest thing here is to park it near the curb with a for sale sign including the words, "BRAND NEW BATTERY."
Does the '68 Lincoln have a forward tilting hood? Yes, I know you can't open it yet, heh.
A shop manual might have some helpful maintenance/repair tips for that sort of thing.
Older models had a small access port through the front inner splash panel on the driver's side which allowed for a long metal rod or very long screw driver to reach and release the hood latch.
Maybe it's the same for your '68?
Would need a flex light and probably a good bit of patience, too.
Also She shifts into a higher gear so slowly. I'll be flooring it for a while before I feel the tranny shift.
Help.
What's that?
What's that?
Yeah, I was wondering that, too. I had a '69 Dart with a slant six, and its choke could get a little annoying, especially in cold, damp weather. I just learned to live with it though. :sick:
My '68 Dart, which has a 318 V-8, has a flap inside the passenger-side exhaust manifold. These things would tend to rust and fail with age. I had to replace the passenger side manifold, and found one in the junkyard. I remember the guys at the junkyard heated the thing up for me, enough to move that flap in the open position. Guess it's better for them to fail open than closed!
Well on my '68 Dart 318, my understanding was that it was the flap in the exhaust manifold. It would hold some of the heat and pressure back, and cause some spring thingy to heat up and open the choke. In theory...when it was working!
More often than not though, I suspect a screwdriver down the throat was what usually held the choke open! :sick:
Yeah that's it. That's the same one. I guess you were the only one to figure out that I meant "Divorce choke". It's a heat sensitive spring that is mounted on either the exhaust or intake manifold. It responds to the temperature of the engine and opens or closes the flap accordingly.
SO...How do I adjust it?
Anybody know?
thanks man.
If the choke isn't opening, then you have to replace the bi-metal spring. Almost cheaper to buy an electric choke kit.
Please explain a bit more what parts you're looking for.
Edit-and by easier I mean I swapped out the whole axle, pretty simple operation (did it in my dorm's parking lot one Saturday).
You could also try www.moparmailinglist.com. Someone there may be able to help you out. Good luck! I've had two Darts, a '69 slant six and a '68 318, and loved 'em both!
Do you mean block?
shermanf