Luxury Lounge

tagman

Good post, hpowders.

I live in one of the top richest zip codes in the U.S. Most of the folks in the community drive nice cars and commute. I'm with you... I'd rather drive my Carerra to work than sit in the back. BTW, I carry a Costco card.

To brightness - sometimes you make it difficult to have a normal conversation... you have ideas that are WAY out there. My guess is that you are an eccentric genius saab-driving geek, but your own intellect gets in your way somehow.

Hope you don't mind the stereotype. :P

TagMan

brightness04

Well, the key here is that you are already retired. If you were working, and working hard enough to pull off sufficient funds to be "rich," commute driving would probably the last thing you want. There's nothing enjoyable about getting stuck in slow traffic at the driver's seat, regardless how sporty the ride is. Notice, I did not say all drivings, but just the routine grind that we call commute.

lexusguy

How about we start saying hello to a new upcoming HELC member. A Hyundai, yes I am not kidding!

As I understand it, Hyundai is interested in the LPS market, not HELC. This will compete with the GS, not the LS. What I found interesting about is C&D mentioned something about a more powerful turbocharged V8 version.

designman

I could see being chauffered if I worked in NYC city and time was at a premium. I know several people who do this. Actually the companies pay limos. As much as I enjoy driving, the suburb-to-NYC commute is not driving nirvana and it's the LAST situation you want to be in with a Porsche. NYC is a very slow off-road experience.

;-)

brightness04

No zip code contains a majority of "truly rich folks." Medium household income in my zip code is over three times the national average, but at $140k (the latest) the medium is hardly "truly rich." I make well over a couple times that, but still not "truly rich." Yes, I carry a Costco card too, for the 5 months that I'm off, I'm almost entirely on my own for driving anywhere. Heck, for real driving pleasure, I go cart racing; that would be a car that's worth no more than $10k, around a really tight circuit. During the other 7 months of the year however, when I work my butt off to maintain my standard living, I let other people drive for me whenever I can, so I can get some work done and get some rest. I'm not even rich, only considering myself as member of upper middle class. I can easily see how the truly rich would only drive for the pleasure of driving; commute traffic simply does not qualify. BTW, if you look around my house during my income generating months, the people working for me generate much more traffic than my own . . . further skewing the representation of drivers even in relatively well off zipcodes. BTW, my house cleaner drives a 7 series BMW; no she does not live in town.

hpowders

I may have to renew my long-expired Costco card to get some of those Kona beans.
That card will be my passport to the world of the nouveau riche.
Bring it on!

A toast to life and not letting it pass you by due to crunching too many numbers! :shades:

hpowders

You can't be serious! The price of admission to zip code 11545, where my kids live, is at a very minimum, one 911 per household.

brightness04

A toast to life and not letting it pass you by due to crunching too many numbers!

Crunching numbers can be a form of entertainment too, no worse than dreaming about 0-60 in under 6 or even 5 seconds in stationary commute traffic.

brightness04

According to real estate / demographics on yahoo, the median household income for 11545 is only $110k. From the same source, my zip code (02481) is close to $140k, but I have not seen a single 911 driven by any of my neighbors. A lot of Highlanders, for some reason. Perhaps, like I said, once income reaches beyond a certain level, brand cachet that comes from a sub-$1000/mo inanimate object really doesn't matter any more. My immediate neighbor does have two BMW's, plus a Kia for snow days.

dewey

Am I missing something?

I guess I am the one that is missing something?

One paragraph states that Porsche is going to exercise an option in order to purchase VW shares at a discount price(3 months average price). If that is the case the counterparty of that option is obligated to sell enough
VW shares to Porshce at a discounted 14 percent exercise price so that Porsche can achieve their 30 percent ownership.

While another paragraph contradicts the above situation. The other paragraph states that shareholders are not obligated to sell their shares to VW. So if they are not obligated then what VW shareholder with a sound mind would actually choose to sell their shares shares at a hefty discounted price so that Porsche can reach their 30 percent target?

The only explanation I can think of is that the VW shareholders with a choice are the shareholders that are not bound by an option to sell their shares to Porsche? But why even mention these shareholders? They cannot stop Porsche from hitting their 30 percent ownership of VW?

There is definitely a good reason for this contradiction but I dont know the reason?

dewey

Between your clients, family, driving your 335i, reading the WSJ, and posting on Edmunds, it's a miracle if you have time to eat.

I know that if I was among the ultra-rich I would hire a staff of two. A chauffeur and a keyboard typist that would type my Edmunds posts.

hpowders

"Crunching numbers can be a form of entertainment."

I don't think I am going out on a limb here by stating I would consider that a minority-held opinion.

I can do the 0-60 in 5.5 seconds without dreaming, in non-rush-hour traffic.

And you haven't lived, brightness, until you floor the 545 and hear that intoxicating macho growl. So indescribably delicious!

Highest recommendation! :shades:

hpowders

Let me tell ya, I wouldn't take any demographics done by Yahoo! too seriously.

Go to a local realtor's office and ask them what the median income is. They are more "in sync."

FYI, there are 60 homes on the market there at this time and the cheapest one lists for $1,345,000.

In reality, one must be a multi-millionaire to live there.

brightness04

I drag raced a 540i against a C5 once just for kicks ;-)

in non-rush-hour traffic.

How many non-retired people can enjoy that in their commute? In any case, I found cart racing a lot more satisfying than even the V8 growl; otherwise, I'd get a C6

brightness04

That yahoo data is from the real estate offices, as in realestate.yahoo.com

brightness04

A nanny and a house cleaner, plus a job that is seasonal would even allow you to enjoy driving and typing yourself, at least in the off-season.

designman

I drag raced a 540i against a C4 once just for kicks

Please complete the story. Which generation C4, and what was the outcome? I am assuming you are talking about a Porsche but it could be the Vette? Not that it makes a difference... there are no specs available for driver competency.

;-)

hpowders

If the cheapest house for sale in a neighborhood out of 60 homes on the market is almost $1.5 million, this is telling me that to live there and not feel peer pressure, you had better have at least one 911 or reasonable equivalent and an up to date Costco card. And a weekly supply of fresh Kona beans!
The loaded to the gills Highlander belongs to the lawn cutting guy.

brightness04

For some odd reason, a search on Realtor.com shows that there are dozens of homes for sale in 11545 zipcode for $5xx-6xx range. Anway, I'm sure it's a decent neighborhood, but hear-says and apocryphal accounts can really get out of hand. Before we moved here a few years ago, we heard all sorts of stories about how the people here are snobs etc.; turns out, almost all the neighbors are very friendly and live rather ordinary lives (well, until a certain day of the week, when the house cleaners and yard crew show up and fill the streets with their cars.)

brightness04

My typo in the original post. It was a 1997 C5 that we managed to corral shortly after the 1999 540i wagon came out. So we had a wagon to sport coupe race :-) The wagon did not lose too badly, which was quite remarkable. Just saw your editing; it was a Corvette C5, 1997 being the first year of a much heralded generation, and actually hard to come by; the 99 540i was also a new kind of beast at the time, a drag racing wagon!

hpowders

Not strictly homes for sale. They mix some small lots for sale in there.

Go to Mlsli.com and click in order: find a home, nassau, house and finally, old brookville.
60 homes. Cheapest one almost $1.5 million.
These are the latest MLS for this area and are absolutely the most accurate.

Gentlemen: Start your 911's! :shades:

brightness04

hmm, when I enter "Nassau, NY," Realtor.com gives me some upstate place not Nassau county; "Brookville, NY" on Realtor.com is giving me the same old list of 5xx - 6xx houses. I will take your word for it then. If we indefinitely subdivide into a zipcode, we will eventually reach a point where only very expensive houses are contained therein. Not sure what the point of the exercise is. Do you honestly think every household there is commuting with their 911's? and that precious few anybody else is driving in the zipcode area? 911 sounds like something singularly unsuited for commuting in NYC boroughs and 'burbs.

hpowders

Many of the folks who live there commute by LIRR (commuter train) but the highways coming from Long Island are jammed at 7AM. A lot of these guys drive to work too.

brightness04

If the cheapest house for sale in a neighborhood out of 60 homes on the market is almost $1.5 million, this is telling me that to live there and not feel peer pressure, you had better have at least one 911 or reasonable equivalent . . . The loaded to the gills Highlander belongs to the lawn cutting guy.


Just noticed the edit. For what it's worth, we are considering moving to a different town because we just saw an interesting listing, asking 1.5 in a neighborhood of 1.1 to 6.8 in recent sale records in the last 6 months. Of course, we are hoping to get it for much less than ask. Anyhow, luckily we showed up in our Highlander; a 911, or the Saab for that matter, would never have made it past the 50yd drive way. Peer pressure? what peer pressure? I wouldn't even have known there are relatively expensive houses there hidden behind the trees and bushes along that stretch of roads, if not for the address given by the realtor. The most conveninet way of meeting the neighbor after moving in would be taking the boat from our dock to theirs. You may have a point about the lawn cutting guy though, if we get that house, the first vehicle I will buy will be a Bobcat, for snow ploughing and regular landscaping, in-house.

brightness04

Company chauffers/drivers are pre-tax expenses. If they actually make as much or more than what you are implying (i.e. truely rich), why wouldn't they hire a chauffer/driver in the jammed traffic? That's exactly the point I have been trying to make.

dewey

RWD, 4.6L V8

The specs sound HELC-like to me. Sounds like Hyundai is definitely trying to out-do Acura. I dont think we will ever see the day of a RWD V8 Acura sedan.

The best way Hyundai will be able to establish themselves will be in exceeding Lexus in terms of reliability and top-notch customer services. If they can do that they will have a pretty good chance.

I see it as highly unlikely theat Hyundai can produce a better luxury/HELC than the competition. Especially at a lower price.
That will be a hard thing to do especially if you consider that based on engineering excellence there is not a single Hyundai that is as good as a Honda or a Toyota. The Sonata may be an exception but its priced far too closely to an Accord or a Camry.

tagman

Company chauffers/drivers are pre-tax expenses. If they actually make as much or more than what you are implying (i.e. truely rich), why wouldn't they hire a chauffer/driver in the jammed traffic? That's exactly the point I have been trying to make.

OK, brightness... you've made your point. I'm convinced. I should have never bought that 911. I should have bought a Lexus, hired a chauffeur, and I still would have had money left over to buy the whole truckload of Kona coffee at Costco. :shades:

TagMan

brightness04

Tag, what you get for yourself is your own business. A Lexus, or even a Hyundai, plus a chauffeur, is going to cost more than a 911, which at last check still only costs about $1000/mo depreciation+interest. How much your time is worth and the pain and suffering of driving through commute by youself with the 911 vs. doing something productive or getting a comfortable rest in the back seat of a Lexus in that jammed commute traffic, that's what decides which approach to commute is more worthwhile to you personally. Nothing says someone who rides in the back seat of a Lexus for commute on work days can't take a 911 on off-day pleasure drives or even club racing events. I guess that's one of the differences between "wannabe rich" and "truly rich." I'm not rich by any stretch of imagination; nor do I think anyone who has to drive him/herself in commute is really rich. There's really nothing enjoyable about being stuck in commute traffic. Anyone having to endure it day in and day out, regardless how fancy the car is (still only about $1000/mo even for the best of the best nowadays), is probably doing it for cost reasons (not being able to afford a chauffeur for commute, at least $2-3k/mo unless in a company car pool). In other words, still a member of the working stiff, just like the rest of us.

lexusguy

The specs sound HELC-like to me. Sounds like Hyundai is definitely trying to out-do Acura. I dont think we will ever see the day of a RWD V8 Acura sedan.

Ah, I didn't realize that the "Genesis" concept was playing in the 200" club. I thought it was going to be E-class sized. This will definitely be a car to watch. Acura should be embarrassed by it, they've had one toe in the HELC pool since 1986, but've always been too scared to jump in, while Lexus and Infiniti spent the money and took the risks. Hyundai is making no excuses here, they've got the dedicated RWD architecture and the V8. They aren't trying to sell a $50K Sonata with AWD and some glitz thrown on it.

It will be interesting to see what kind of in car tech they will come up with for this. You still can't even get NAV in any Hyundai product, while the Japanese offer it in their econoboxes. That has to change. A coupon for a free Garmin Nuvi won't cut it.

tagman

Perhaps your definition of "rich" needs to be clarified. Because I do not agree with you at this point, with the exception of what D-man said, regarding the usefulness of a chauffeur, perhaps, in a place like NYC. So, what's your definition?

TagMan

dewey

I am not really up to date with the Hyundai story but are they going to market the Genesis in luxury dealerships?

It would be a Phaeton recurrence if the Genesis was sold at Hyundai. A low priced HELC-type car sold at Hyundai dealerships would not gain much attention in the USA. Although that may not be the case in Europe and Asia.

dewey

I see many chauffeurs when I travel overseas including in New York City.

Here in Toronto I cant recall ever seeing a full-time Chauffeur? The only chauffeurs I see here are hired for funerals or stag parties.

Most Canadians dont hate Conrad Black because of his corporate misdeameanors, but because of his arrogant ways of flaunting his wealth. Such wealth exhibitionism is a rarity in low profile Canada.

Frequently I used to see the late Kenneth Thomson (was the wealthiest man in Canada and among the wealthiest in the world) and his family eat at a Golden Griddle a few blocks away from my house. Many times I see CEOs of the largest Canadian Corporations in the subway. I even had a former Prime Minister sit beside me during a subway ride.

I cant fathom what justification there is in hiring a chauffeur? It's far faster in Toronto to take the subway during traffic hour than to be stuck in traffic in a chauffeur driven car. Personally I can read my newspaper far better in a subway than I could in the rear seat of any limousine, especially one that gives me a distracting Shiatsu massage.

designman

That's an interesting thought but I don't see any similarities between Genesis and Phaeton. The obvious difference is the enormous disparity in price. Many people don't want to pay high-end money for a low-end badge, but Genesis is still low-end money for the low-end badge. I think sales will be just fine under the auspices of Hyundai if they can pull it off. I don't see how they can provide Lexus-like product and service at that price. It would be nice if they can do it but you have to believe it's a longshot. I think it has to sell at Hyundai stores. Even Phaeton at its lofty price shared the apartment with the Stones, I mean, the Beetles and Jettas.

;-)

tagman

I cant fathom what justification there is in hiring a chauffeur.

I totally agree.

TagMan

tagman

I am not really up to date with the Hyundai story but are they going to market the Genesis in luxury dealerships?

I have not read ANY thing that even hints at such a move. But it is an interestng idea.

Personally, I doubt that Hyundai is going to open up seperate dealerships. There is no real luxury "line-up" yet to justify such a move, IMO. Now, if that were to happen, whereby Hyundai had a luxury SUV, luxury sedan and perhaps coupe, then I could see it, but I think it's a stretch of the imagination at this time.

TagMan

brightness04

So, what's your definition?

At least half a mil a year in income. That translates to $250/hr over 2000 work hrs in a year; $300/hr during work days if the person is into taking vacations. That's why I think it's quite common to see drivers/chauffeurs in cities known for congested traffic (where HELC's are usually found), and quite common for companies to have in-house drivers/chauffeurs to fetch their valuable employees. I assign junior employees to take some of my most important employees home after they pull a 12-hr day for me; and fetch them the next day. It's just not worth risking accidents happening to the most valuable employees; the pay for the junior employee driving is a cheap insurance.

brightness04

I cant fathom what justification there is in hiring a chauffeur?

By that logic, HELC with large back seat space should never have been made :-)

Former Prime Ministers should indeed ride subway unless he is independently wealthy. The net value of an average politician is negative any way; there's no reason for the tax payer to pay for them in retirement ;-) In any case, Canada is a country of only 30 million people, so the former prime minister is little more important than former governors of half of California, or former governors of New York or Florida. Heck, probably less because the federal government of Cananda has less control over the provinces than a state governor over his jurisdiction in the US. BTW, I actually admire the relatively loose confederation system that Canada has, making politicians less important and full of themselves.

The situation facing private businessmen in the US is quite different from that of Canada. The subway system is atrocious: messy, chaotic and often infested with disease and crime. It's really not possible to either run a laptop or talk much business on the phone in the subway without upsetting people or potentially get mugged. Also, when you see the celebrities in the normal places with their families, or even at Costco or Home Depot, obviously that's on their own time, not going to or from work. I'm not saying getting chauffeured to a Costco run or something like; the Costco run itself should be done by an employee if it is business related. Saying that there is no justification for hiring a chauffeur is like saying there is no justification for paying anyone more than $250/hr . . . a chauffeur costs less than $250/day! Sure if you are really hard-core socialist, you may indeed believe no one can justify $250/hr, but I doubt that's your inclination. If the company is already paying the guy $250/hr or more, what's wrong with hiring a chauffeur for him if that means getting another hour of productive work out of him. In real life, the cut-off line may be as low as $150/hr or even less if the chauffeur can drive several employees home by car pooling or repeat trips.

tagman

brightness - I more than meet your criteria, and so do many of my friends and neighbors. I assure you that you do not have your finger on the pulse correctly in this case.

As an example, you can bet Jay Leno drives one of his "collection" to the studio, as opposed to being driven.

TagMan

brightness04

Does Leno _have to_ drive himself to work? Obviously not.

Do you _have to_ drive yourself to work? I have no idea what your expenses are. More importantly, I have no idea how long your day is or what your true opportunity cost is beyond the 8hr day assigned by your employer. Is 911 really an enjoyable ride for commute? I have no idea where you commute and what time frame, but certainly not in the city rush hour traffic that I used to be familiar with.

BTW, the half-mil line was mentioned as "at least." In reality, that's the line where hiring a driver costs less than the opportunity cost of an extra productive hour each day instead of the mundane commute. As to what I really think is rich, well, I mentioned that in an earlier post: $600k-1.2mil per year being the lower limit of truly rich.

ljflx

I wouldn't define rich based on income. I'd define it based on assets owned and I'd put the number at $5mln (excluding home ownership) for starters. Income is the way to maintain or grow your accumulated wealth and that income has to be what supports your lifestyle and holds in your nest egg. If you are eroding that nest egg you are not rich unless the accumulated wealth is very large. Then it doesn't matter unless you are Michael Jackson like careless.

Look at it this way. $500K earned for 10 years is $5mln pre-tax and pre-spending. Someone making that will live well but take out taxes and spending and you lack retirement money to maintain your lifestyle. Rich means you don't worry about retiring and keeping the lifestyle you had when your earned the big money. In the end how rich one needs to be is a function of lifestyle chosen.

tagman

I have no idea what your expenses are. More importantly, I have no idea how long your day is or what your true opportunity cost is beyond the 8hr day assigned by your employer. Is 911 really an enjoyable ride for commute? I have no idea where you commute and what time frame, but certainly not in the city rush hour traffic that I used to be familiar with.

Exactly... you have "no idea".

TagMan

brightness04

Agree, the $500k/yr line is a very low bar for "being rich." That's why I used the qualifier "at least." That low of a bar however already makes hiring a driver worthwhile considering the opportunity cost of an extra productive hour each day instead of the drugery of commute driving, $250 is more than the price of entry for hiring a driver for a day if placed on annual salary basis.

tagman

Without being too revealing here.. let me just say that I have a 7-digit retirement plan and a large annual salary. I own certain assets, and have huge equity in my home, which is easily multi-millions in equity... and I consider that much equity as a contributing factor. Also, I am 100% stock holder of my own corporation which generates multi-millions in revenue annually, and is valued at multi-millions. My situation is not unique here, and many others like me drive to work. I think the whole idea of having to have a chauffeur to be considered rich is absurd.

TagMan

brightness04

I think the whole idea of having to have a chauffeur to be considered rich is absurd.

Where did you get that idea? I said the truly rich do not have to drive to commute. Whether a specific person chooses to drive himself is an entirely different story. If a person does choose to drive, that's entertainment. In that case, your own case illustrated quite well (assuming you consider youself rich), the vehicle of choice is not a HELC with big back seats.

brightness04

Well, that's a content-free cheap shot. Notice, the half-mil line was only proferred as a necessary condition (with the qualifier "at least"). Necessary condition is not sufficient condition. A person with half a mil annual income can have a six-figure per year mortgage obligation on his primary residence, and he certainly would not qualify as being indendently rich. A person who feels he has to drive himself to work for financial reasons (i.e. unable to afford a driver) is certainly not rich; more like living paycheck to paycheck if you ask me, regardless how large the paycheck is, the bills are apparently eating up almost all of it. Of course, a truely rich person can choose to drive himself any time; that goes without saying.

tagman

Of course, a truely rich person can choose to drive himself any time; that goes without saying.

EXACTLY... and that includes the commute sometimes. That's what some of us have been saying all along...and it took this long for you to realize this, or at least finally post it.

With regards to the content, I think I have divulged enough on a public forum.

TagMan

brightness04

I never posted to the contrary. On the other hand, can you fathom now why often times it actually pays to hire a driver instead? Hiring a driver may not have much to do with "flaunting" at all, but a simple economic choice.

ljflx

I agree. Most of the upper crust that wants a chaffeur wants one to relax before and after a days work and/or not to worry about drinking at events and dinners.

brightness04

Exactly. I'm not even "upper crust" or even "rich"; it's already hard work enough pulling off a mid-six-figure income, and I don't even owe anything on my house. A relaxed ride to and from the work place wrapped around a long hectic day is most welcome. It's so worthwhile that I even give it to my most valued employees on days when they work really hard for me, lest they run off the road after a long day and cost me more in lost profit. That's simply responsible behavior; I can not afford to have key personnelle, including myself, getting into car accidents after over-working. BTW, I'm not some easily tired 70+ guy either; I'm still in the first half of my 30's.

dewey

That's an interesting thought but I don't see any similarities between Genesis and Phaeton. The obvious difference is the enormous disparity in price. Many people don't want to pay high-end money for a low-end badge, but Genesis is still low-end money for the low-end badge.

You maybe right.

But my question is does cheap luxury sell in image-conscious North America ? Is not cheap luxury a oxymoron?

Luxury is not only defined by the car itself but is also defined by its exclusivity and premium services provided by dealerships. And those are both things that a Hyundai Genesis will not have.

Why was the Lexus LS such a screaming success? Because the 1990 LS was part of a a distinctive Lexus brand sold at dealerships with first class services . But what if the LS was sold as a Toyota at a much lower price (then what the 1990 LS was offered for) at Toyota dealerships? IMO a cheaper luxury LS would have been a flop.

Here's another example. What if the MB E350 was sold at Chrysler dealerships at a far lower price as a Chrysler E350? Would that sell well? I dont think so. And I have related proof in this case: The Chrysler Crossfire.