Luxury Lounge

dewey

Personally, I doubt that Hyundai is going to open up seperate dealerships.

In that case why even bother offering a luxury car?
In the early nineties there were rumors that Mazda would introduce a new luxury brand. When the idea was canned, Mazda didn't even bother developing cars with luxury specs. IMO that was smart.

dewey

wouldn't define rich based on income. I'd define it based on assets owned and I'd put the number at $5mln (excluding home ownership) for starters.

Very well said LJ.

I know someone with the following profile:

Earns miniscule income(if you knew his income level you would think he is a pauper). Doesn't pay hardly any taxes since he qualifies for various tax credits.

BUT owns about 10 million dollars of Berkshire Hathaway stock. With no dividends and capital gains this fellow just keeps on getting wealthier on a tax-free basis.

brightness04

I think the cheaper Lexus sold at a Toyota dealership was called "Cressida" :-) I agree with you, that it was not a big sales success story. While everyone tends to talk about the LS in the Lexus story, what really made Lexus money was the ES line, and the ES was essentially a retake on Cressida with a different brand, at the beginning. Phaeton failed because the price is so far out there as to not attract much buyer traffic at all; curious gawkers probably out-numbered VW buyers. The 1990 LS however was priced low enough to get people in with their checkbooks, and can be sold on the ES even if they do not write a check for the LS.

IMHO, Hyundai is going to move its brand upmarket, leaving Kia to deal with the plebian cars; it makes no sense to have two plebian brands. Ironicly, Hyundai and BMW share the same carmaking partner in China, which in its own production line is pursueing a full line of products to sell for 30-50% less than the current market price for various sized vehicles, including full-size luxury cars (the 200-inchers). The commodidization of the luxury carmaket is happening. That's why Toyota and Honda are actively pursueing family aircraft business, looking perhaps a decade or less down the roand.

brightness04

Well, he's already paying plenty taxes in the form of BRK corporate taxes. We need to worry more about getting the rest of us out of double taxation than his "tax-free" wealth growth.

In any case, each share of BRK.A is enough to pay for 2-3 years of chauffeuring, so affordability is not an issue for that fellow, unless he intends to live for 300+ years ;-)

hpowders

Thanks for the definition!

I never thought of myself as rich before. Comfortable, yes. To me, people like W. Buffett, J. Leno, A. Jolie and Judge Judith Scheinman (Judge Judy) are rich. But your definition at least lets me squeeze through the back door!

When I get the Costco card renewed, I will really be going places!

houdini1

Yes, I agree that a person's degree of wealth is better defined by assets rather than income. I am always fairly low key and could best be described as the multi-millionaire next door. Apparently not is Tags class but I do all right. I love Costco.

houdini1

Only if I happen to find one. I made my money by being cheap. I like the MC Lady. About 9 bucks a dozen. I just can't stand the thought of losing a 5 dollar golf ball!!

hpowders

I deleted the post, but I hear ya!

I play re-washed AAAA Callaway HX Blues that are as good as new (probably hit once!) for $9 a dozen from EBay. Heh! Heh!

Looks like we are both "value" players!

houdini1

I am leaving Sunday for practice Monday at The Masters. I will actually be home by Thursday and can watch it all on my rich people only 50 inch plasma TV. About $1500. at Costco.;)

hpowders

I'll just have to make due with my 2 Sony LCD HD's.

Enjoy the azaleas. Wish I could play there!

brightness04

You are welcome if it makes you fee better. I gave the $500k/yr line as a low-ball minimum; that's why there was a qualifier "at least." Simultaneously, that low ball minimum is enough to make it worthwhile to hire a driver for commute on opportunity cost alone. $500k/yr means $250/hr; in other words, the opportunity cost of one hour of commute (half hour each way) is more than enough to hire a driver for commute. If you think the qualifer for "being rich" is much higher than that, then thank you for supporting my contention that it should be no sweat for the rich to afford driver on commutes; often even make economic sense, making hiring a driver _save_ money if the alternative is giving up a good productive hour.

I'm just below the $500k/yr line, not counting the corporate income of the companies that I own either 100% or with my wife. I don't feel rich at all. OTOH, IRS thinks the cut-off line for top 1% income is around $350k/yr, so go figure.

hpowders

I was only kidding, Brightness. I have everything I want and need. Rich. Not rich. Who cares?

As a side note: My son-in-law who makes 5 million a year never smiles, always looks miserable and has 6 cars, a castle for a house, a wife who never stops spending and 3 spoiled kids. I am bracing myself for their Easter arrival. :sick:

I think we are looking in the wrong place when we attempt to define truly feeling "rich." Lucky are the few who are!

tagman

hpowders,

Yours is the right attitude!!! None of this matters. The whole definition thing is ridiculous. Everyone has a different criteria, and money doesn't always mean happiness. And, God knows there are more important and meaningful things anyway.

This whole absurdity started when it was posted that rich folks should have a chauffeur.

Well, I may be well off, but I've got my feet well planted on the ground, I know that it's my family that counts, and I drive myself where I go and I shop for Kona at Costco... so I didn't need someone telling me I should have a chauffeur if I were truly rich. That's BS.

Just cause I've got money, doesn't mean I have to live a certain lifestyle, or act like a snob.

Gosh, we just finished our Little League game tonight and we're going to get pizza... gee, I hope that's not a violation for the rich and famous!

Good post, Howard. Well said... thanks!

TagMan

anthonyp

Those last six words say it all....Tony

brightness04

It's absurd. Nobody suggested rich folks _should_ have a chauffeur. You were the one who were so keen on definition and asked for one. I gave you a low ball minimum, as an illustration that it doesn't take much to make hiring a driver a money saver (you'd have to define the line of "rich" even lower to make hiring driver not worthwhile on economic ground alone), then you took that opportunity and went off swaggering.

Shoot, is having a Costco membership itself "act like a snob"?? After all, it is $60 that the penniless does not have. Yes, to many of us that $60 membership actually save money in the course of a year, or even on the very first shopping trip after membership renew. Likewise, what's so hard to understand that for many people that $150-200 a day fee for a driver actually saves tons of money in the course of a year by allowing more productive work hours?

hpowders

Thanks for that, Tagman and Tony.

dewey

actually saves tons of money in the course of a year by allowing more productive work hours?

Productive in the rear seat of a chauffeured limosine?

I've news for you: many of the ultra-rich are not even productive.

Heirs whose main pursuit in life is wine, woman and song. Or in the case of Paris Hilton wine, man and song

The retired young entrepreneur who made a killing in a business at the grand old age of 35.

Some luck investors who bought Dell and sold Dell at the right time and are now full time leisure travellers.

Nardelli from Home Depot who unproductively earned hundreds of millions of dollars at his date of dismissal.

And last but not the ultra rich who spend a lot of time at Edmunds

The list goes on and on and on...................

dewey

Tagman,

here's some news for you when you visit your Audi dealership:

Audi Announces 2008 R8 U.S. Pricing

Audi of America, LLC announced today pricing for the all-new 2008 R8 sports car. The R8 with a six- speed manual transmission will have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of $109,000 when it launches this fall in the United States. Models equipped with the six-speed R tronic automatic gearbox will start at $118,000.

tagman

Thanks for that, Tagman and Tony.

Howard,

Every once in a while the true character of a poster comes through, and, IMO, yours came through will all its shining glory. It's you that deserves the thanks!

TagMan

blckislandguy

Wow! This is a social-psychologists dream. Briteness lives in Newport, RI where he makes a fair piece of change yet wants to buy a Bobcat to mow his lawn. I mean, how gauche is that? Someone else has children who live in such a ritzy neighborhood that a 911 is the only minimally acceptable vehicle. Jflx comes along and rightfully insists that wealth, not income is the only enduring asset. Somehow the notion of a Costco membership card gets introduced. Someone discusses the minimum income level at which one should employ a "chauffeur" (reality check: the really rich use the word "driver"). This gets batted around intertwined with the concept of "opportunity cost". Somehow I can't see Warren Buffet (who drives himself quite nicely in an Explorer) thinking in those terms. Nowhere in the discussion of housing costs, vehicle choices, or employing a chauffeur does anyone mention urban/rural differences, life style differences, etc. The whole discussion reminds me of Vance Packards book, The Status Seekers, published in the early 60's.

But then again what do I know? In my zip code, 02807, right across the water from Briteness, the average house is worth well over one mil, the average income is well under 40K, and anyone driving anything better than a late 80's Jeep Grand Wagoneer or a five year old pick up is a nouveau.

tagman

Audi of America, LLC announced today pricing for the all-new 2008 R8 sports car. The R8 with a six- speed manual transmission will have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of $109,000 when it launches this fall in the United States. Models equipped with the six-speed R tronic automatic gearbox will start at $118,000.

OMG, that car is a steal! Better tell blkhemi right away. Oh, I think he just took delivery of a brand new nice shiny Jag XKR. But, knowing him, that shouldn't stop him.

I'd be tempted, but truth be told, the 2007 Carrera S may very well be the best one they've ever made. It's really that good, and I'm absolutely loving the car more than I've loved a car in a long time. I'd be foolish to make a change at this point.

That price, though, is going to send shockwaves. The R8, IMO, could easily command at least $25K more, and still sell out.

TagMan

hpowders

You truly humble me. Thank you.

Now please get back to posting about some of those fabulous vehicles that you love to talk about.

brightness04

If you have a beef against the rich, take it up with Tagman. He's the one claiming to be rich. Not me. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that I'm not rich. Even when asked for a definition by Tag, I proferred a low ball number that's just above my own personal income.

As for productivity increase from having a driver, it comes from two kinds:

(1) Yes, use of laptop and conversation with clients while taking notes are both possible in the back seat, not quite the same can be said while driving by oneself;

(2) Enabling extra long work days. When one works 10, 12 or more hours in a day, the extra hour or more of driving becomes a painful chore, and can be downright dangerous. I discovered that nearly a decade ago, when I almost ran off the road after a long work day. The boredom of driving on empty roads after a long day is very sleep-inducing; yes, I was driving a BMW 5 series, theoretically an entertaining car, but apparently not enough. The rumble strip woke me up and I was a few inches from the railing when I yanked the steering. That's when I realized the value of a designated driver working on a different shift, just like a designated driver when alcohol is on the offer. It's responsible behavior. Later on, I offered that to my most valued employees too when they put in an extra long day for me.

many of the ultra-rich are not even productive.

Perhaps true, perhaps not, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. What really matters is the time opportunity cost at the moment, and whether he/she can afford to spend his/her time uneconomicly. Wrapping oneself around a tree after taking a turn too fast in a sportscar is certainly not the most economic use of time, even for the ultra-rich, but hey, sometimes people do that sort of thing just for fun.

tagman

Hey, brightness... me thinks you are getting a wee bit too serious and analytical here. Time to let it go and move on... before blckislandguy gets the social-psychologists after you.

TagMan

brightness04

I'm starting to wonder if it's a New England "virtue" thing: most of my neighbors drive rather average cars. It's the less well off part of the town that is filled with the ritzy new cars. The less showy kind of luxury, like part-time or full-time domestic staff, however is quite common around here.

Warren drives mostly for a political statement. He spends most of his time in his grounded aircraft; I doubt he has an aviation license for piloting the jet himself. I'm not in RI, although given the low excise tax on vehicles of all sorts there (including boats), it's tempting. The docks are on a lake. If I get that house we are considering, I will need a Bobcat to do some extensive landscaping and building. The monetary value reaped from the effort will significantly exceed the cost of a Bobcat. Learning to drive one can save me the cost of hiring one and a licensed operator for every minor adjustment that I want to make. Gosh knows I could use some exercise working the land once in a while ;-)

tagman

brightness,

There is nothing that can substitute for the experience of working with a tractor or dozer or front loader or back hoe. Pushing those hydraulic valves open and closed and taking a big scoop out of the earth with such power is something every man should experience, if possible... talk about a powerful adrenaline rush. You will love it. I have had the experience, many years ago, and I have to admit, it was cool. Good luck with acquiring the property and fixing it up. I can't wait to hear about your experience with the Bobcat, or better yet a Caterpillar, or whatever you use.

BTW, based upon your earlier analysis, your chauffeur will thank you to be very careful when you park the Bobcat next to this:

link title



TagMan

brightness04

Tag,

Thanks for the encouragement. The grounds need some levelling and grading to be entirely safe for our 1yr old toddler . . . and to be converted back to concrete and stone steps for better aesthetics after the kids grow up a little. As I'm planning on staying there for a decade or two, I also have a few pet projects in mind, like a heated driveway, and a windmill facing the lake to generate the electricity to power it (gotta keep my foot-print smaller than Mr. Internet). The alternative, waiting for someone to come and plough that 200ft driveway after every snow fall, would be a nightmare. It's going to be the test ground for some of my "ecologically sound comfortable living" (ESCL,tm) ideas for my eventual purchase of a retirement farm ;-)

Is that a link to a Maybach or a previous generation Kia 300? Just kidding. I'm not interested in a luxo limo of that caliber (unless it's the 300, but I don't like "KIA"; call me superstitious); it would not look right in the eyes of some clients. Minivans can provide the adjustable back seat inclination, the fold-down laptop table, and independent HVAC and entertainment for backseats just fine. Supposedly BMW is getting into the "sportvan" market within the next 24 months.

hpowders

"Sportvan". Now there's a great oxymoron for ya! :sick:

As BMW seems to be getting further away from its "mission."

530ir1150r

The best reason to have a driver if you are truly rich or wealthy is to reduce your liability exposure, and I would think you would want to use a contractor instead of an employee.

Chris Rock had an interesting definition of rich and wealthy several years ago. He said Shag was rich, the man who signs his check is wealthy.

dewey

If you have a beef against the rich

Do I ?

I have repeatedly stated that I'm not rich

Did I ever say you were?

Anybody can be a billionaire here at Edmunds. It's as easy as being a three eyed monster in the virtual worlds of Second Life.

No offense to anybody but I find financial disclosures from any forum member here as being quite nonsensical. I mean in all honesty we are here to discuss cars and not here to become qualified individual investors for a prestigious private equity or hedge fund.

dewey

As BMW seems to be getting further away from its "mission."

Its mission is not solely to please enthusiasts. Its mission is to produce as many cars as possible in a profitables manner.

That is the unfortunate truth.

I hate the X5, X3, 7 Series and the 6 Series and the soon to be X6 and BMW Minivan. But whatever the market wants the market will get.

designman

I once read that construction workers have the highest sense of satisfaction with regard to their jobs. And the reason is because they can forever see the massive final product and all of its routine usefulness. Buildings and enduring structures are monoliths and monuments of sorts, and there is great personal, lasting fulfillment in knowing they built them.

dewey

I also read that an extensive survey on happiness was done in Nigeria and USA. And it turns out overall Nigerians are happier than affluent Americans.

Why is that so? The answer to that question can best be answered by another survey:

A survey was done on Harvard MBA students who were asked the following:

1) Would you like to earn $500K while the average income is $500K?
2) Or would you be willing to earn only $100K while the average income is $50K?

Most of the students picked number two.In otherwords happiness is all relative to what we think is average. That is why a Hyundai Genesis will flop. Luxury becomes average when it is sold at an average price.

hpowders

"That is the unfortunate truth."

I have to agree. But a minivan?
At least it will get the benefit of Chris Bangle's aggressive styling.

Just washed the 545i. Just amazing how beautiful that titanium silver Bangled beauty looks in the clear Tampa sunlight.

Chris Bangle's BMW's. Much copied. Never equalled. :shades:

brightness04

Do I ?

Yes, you did with your rant about undeserved wealth.

Did I ever say you were?

You were making a judgement on the subject with you repeated insinuations.

No offense to anybody but I find financial disclosures from any forum member here as being quite nonsensical.

Exactly, why would anyone want to tell us he has a CA/CPA certificate and does financial planning for living. It's not exactly place for client recruitment.

It's as easy as being a three eyed monster in the virtual worlds of Second Life.

I agree again. I find it hard to believe anyone who can not get a correct snap judgement on lease cash flow and rate of amortization, or not having the patience to grind through the numerical details or to drill down company annual report before citing them . . . well, can be a successful CA/CPA in any place other than Second Life.

dewey

I agree again. I find it hard to believe anyone who can not get a correct snap judgement on lease cash flow and rate of amortization, or not having the patience to grind through the numerical details or to drill down company annual report before citing them . . . well, can be a successful CA/CPA in any place other than Second Life.

Sounds like I touched one of your raw nerves with that last post of mine. I figured it would. Anyways you are so correct as you always are.

I am a liar and a fraud. I am not a CA/CPA nor a CFA.
In truth I am just a very poor and uneducated homeless person currently sitting in a library in order to have internet access to these forums. My net worth consists of my grocery cart (the only property I own) and my income consists of whatever I can panhandle.

Huhhh, at least I got that off my chest.

So now since I have revealed my networth and income how about discussing cars instead . But before we discuss cars I first got to depart from Second Life oops I meant Edmunds and go to the public restrooms to brush my teeth and shave. :P

brightness04

Glad to hear that the MBA's still have a good grasp on what money is: the chips/tokens to trade for another person's labor without coercion. In other words, the average wage that other people are getting is really the unit of count for how useful a particular income level is.

I agree that expectations and peer comparison do play a big part in happiness. On the other hand, reality matters, the rubber eventually meet the road, so to speak: there's only that much dictators in rotten places like North Korea can brainwash the people into believing the rest of the world is even worse off, before, well, the people found out the truth. I suspect even the Nigerians have some idea what the ouside world is like, as they line for to collect fuel leaks on the pipelines, and send out scamming spam mails.

That is why a Hyundai Genesis will flop. Luxury becomes average when it is sold at an average price.

Whatever manufactuered product that used to be luxury eventually all become average. That's called progress: making items that used to be exclusive to a tiny proportion of population, availble to the people in general. Unless there is some kind of major technological breakthrough that is extremely limited in supply, the art and tech of carmaking is becoming common place, including luxury carmaking. Genesis is just the latest manifestation of that phenomenom. People are becoming less enamored/obsessed with cars. The baby boomer generation male population was almost universally into cars; my generation (X) is less so; the generation following mine, well as we see, the manufacturers are having a really tough time selling any youth car to them. The big over-arching marketting success story in the last decade was the retro theme; in other words, marketting to people a couple generations older than the generation entering the market place . . . that's a drastic departure from the hey days that those retro cars actually recall.

BTW, on a personal note, I'm into cars mostly because I was raised dirty poor, and couldn't afford cars until well into my 20's. I developed a habit of memorizing car details like kids' baseball cards, for which incidentally I was also not fortunate enough to collect when I was young. That may explain why I'm more into the numbers and details than the cars themselves.

tagman

I hate to steal the name of the hardware store for this post title, but, I will anyway...

I just want to post that it is not necessary, IMO, for anyone to justify themselves here. I have no sense that anyone is a liar, or is pretending for some bizarre reason to be someone they are not. We bare enough while still maintaining our own levels of privacy.

After all, no one needs TagMan showing up at the front door in his yellow Carrera holding two cups of Kona coffee.

Seriously though, we all come from different situations, and have different views. Like brightness, my early childhood was a poor one, financially. Everything I have, I did on my own, and I don't take it for granted. I thank the good Lord, and realize that it can all be gone in a flash. My family is what matters, anyway.

IMO, all of us here are equally valuable, no matter what we are doing at this moment in time.

Remember these words from the good TagMan:

Always be kind to the people you meet on your way up...
cause you're going to meet the same people on your way down.



TagMan

ljflx

And in the words of Ed Norton:

"happens every day in the sewer"

hpowders

Nobody here has to justify their income bracket.

I for one get tired of reading about which poster has a villa in France, a yacht and the longest string of poloponies.

God bless "Rachael" (Audrey Meadows), wherever she is!

designman

Does anyone care to brag about how well he can do the Hucklebuck? Anyone watch Dancing With the Stars? I like it because it's a cordial environment unlike a lot of these cut-throat reality shows... good clean fun.

;-)

houdini1

Money is not important unless you don't have any. I also grew up poor but had a very happy and rewarding childhood. I think I was about 8 or 9 years old before we had indoor plumbing.

But for the obligations to my wife and others, I could be very content living a less fortunate lifestyle. Most of what I have now came from some hard work and a lot of plain old dumb luck.

hpowders

Well, it seems I am the only poster, who cares to reveal anything, who didn't grow up poor. I was raised solidly upper-middle class and my parents were both college educated. My father owned his own business.

I am working much harder trying to break par than I ever did in the business world. Work was a mere bag of shells compared to golf. :shades:

tagman

I just read this on the Auto Spies website, and I've got to wonder just how reliable this really is.

link title

It's hard to believe that Audi would fall behind in something that they have shown leadership.

TagMan

designman

I was reading this in a local newspaper this morning. An exotic rental car company in San Diego is offering “tours” in 6 sports cars for $1000. You get to drive 30 minutes in each car over a 120 mile course. A $10K returnable security deposit is also required. You can bring a passenger who rides free. According to the article “the tour has proven so successful that the company has added a second shift to the monthly events.” These are the cars:

Elise
997 Turbo
AM Vantage V8
Ferrari 430
Ferrari 360
Lambo Gallardo

houdini1

What? No LS 460!! :mad:

designman

Well, you could get test drives in the LS and 5 other luxury cars for free, that is if you feel like listening to six different salesmen all day.

tagman

Sounds very cool. That's 3 hours of total driving time in some very nice cars. The 120 mile course is probably not a closed course, so the driving might not all be ideal, especially for cars like that, but if the program was offered in my neck of the woods, I might consider it.

BTW, based upon everything I hear, and my prior experience with the Elise, the current Elise offering should be changed to the new Exige S, IMO.

Thanks, D-man,

TagMan

dewey

For the sake of all Bulgarian trauma patients I hope Cayenne Ambulance suspensions are not too tight. :sick:



World Bank loan for Porsche ambulances

Bulgaria's cash strapped health ministry is using a World Bank loan to buy a fleet of luxury Porsche Cayennes to serve as ambulances.

Health Minister Radoslav Gaydarski said the 32 four wheel drive vehicles would be used in remote areas where normal vehicles normally could not travel.

He confirmed the cars had been purchased with a loan by the World Bank. The ministry said they had chosen the Porsches after the company offered what he insisted was the lowest bid in a tender offer.

But critics say the claim is rubbish, as each vehicle has a retail price of £80,000.

Locals are outraged by the news and claim the money could have been better spent.

Bulgaria's health sector is millions of pounds in debt and hospitals and clinics often blame a shortage of supplies and services on lack of funds.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2265083.html?menu=

tagman

Not only is the suspension an issue, but if they're equipped with the base six-cylinder... they will be too slow to get victims to the E.R. fast enough. And if you've driven that impotent and gutless six cylinder, then you know exactly what I mean!

TagMan