Luxury Lounge

designman

In that case both Porsche and VW will be eaten alive by gloabl competition. This kind of tribal and national thinking is the real reason for the economic demise of Europe.(well maybe not every single European country).

You could be right. However, I was just commenting on what is happening. The auto industry is the cornerstone of the German economy and all of the German car manufacturers have this common link. It is the pride of the country. Last year I said... sink or swim, Porsche and VW have been and will be forever attached at the hip, and that blood is thicker than water. Well here they are, the bond now appears to be the strongest it has ever been. I will not attempt to debate what will happen to them other than they will indeed live or die together.

tagman

Porsche and VW have been and will be forever attached at the hip, and that blood is thicker than water.

What about Audi?

TagMan

cdnpinhead

". . .the diesel vehicles that will be coming soon will get a little help from fuel prices as well as the new revised 2008 EPA fuel economy ratings, which reportedly will hurt hybrids and help diesels. "

From your idea to (something's) ear.

I certainly hope you are correct.

I envision a world in which the hybrids will be driven by ivory-tower people with an attitude, vs. diesels driven by people who actually want to conserve energy.

ljflx

That's both funny and probably accurate at the same time. Diesels do come across as blue collar and fit LT ownership vs hybrid's developing technology which fits 3 year leasing and existing business models like a perfect glove.

But the new batteries will drive mileage very high in hybrids. What you are seeing now is equivalent to the the PC's of the early 80's.

cdnpinhead

"That's both funny and probably accurate. . ."

Ding, ding, ding. That, in fact, is the objective.

tagman

I certainly hope you are correct.

Well, it has been strongly suggested that the EPA ratings for hybrids will likely have a 30% average negative affect on their fuel economy ratings... virtually eliminating a large portion of their perceived advantage.

The "power" advantage of hybrids has yet to be embraced by the public, but Toyota is hard at work to change the public's perception on this. The idea is to increase the public's awareness from just thinking of hybrids as fuel savers to thinking of them as performers as well.

The LS600hL will help, with a 0-60 time of near 5 seconds... excellent for such a large car. But since that car is too far out of the average individual's budget and attention level, the next step for Toyota is to produce that FT-HS hybrid sports car, which will draw much more public awareness, and equate hybrid with performance all at the same time.

In the mean time, diesel awareness will grow with the introduciton of new models for 2008 in all states. The fuel economy of diesels will be terrific, and if diesel fuel finally takes its proper price position, it will be similar to the price of gas, or even less.

Those that test drive the diesels will be amazed at the performance, and they will appreciate that the driving characteristics will be similar to what they are accustomed to. But those that test drive hybrids will find some models have very unusual driving characteristics, such as the engine turning on and off, and making strange sounds at certain speeds and at braking.

The advantages of the diesels will even appeal to the "intellectual" crowd as well as the blue collar group. The modern diesel will be promoted by Mercedes Benz and marketed as an environmental masterpiece with advantages over the hybrids, such as zero batteries and zero unusual driving characteristics, and especially their great EPA fuel economy ratings. They will be "green" and appeal to the environmentalists and intellectuals. But as we also know, diesels can be engines for the masses, not just the elite... and this can work in diesel's favor. After all, they are also associated with trucks... and America loves trucks. The idea of "bio-diesel" will appeal to the greenies, and intellectuals as well... but bio-diesel also has a down-home heartland appeal... Willie Nelson will likely be in favor of diesels, and he represents yet another group that will embrace the diesel, and poo-poo on the hybrid.

I have been busting at the seams to see where this all goes in the year 2008 and just beyond. History will be written for those powerplants during those particular years, IMO.

My personal prediction is that we will see both technologies improve significantly and do fairly well... better batteries for hybrids, and greater percentages of ethanol. Diesels and hybrids will be "cool"... until the nano technology batteries come to mass market. At that point in time, nearly everything will become electric.

TagMan

houdini1

Nano tech batteries have been "just around the corner" now for about 7 years. Just exactly how close are we? If you are right that would change everything.

dewey

Diesels are for blue collar types who want to keep a car for the long term?

I guess that explains who I really am since our household still owns a 83 MB 300D.

Hybrids are for ivory tower types with atitude?

Hmm I guess that also explains who I really am since early last year I ordered a hybrid Camry and was actually quite excited about it. After seeing the Camry's miniscule trunk space I said the hell with "Mother Nature and all those cute green lizards you see on those hybrid ads" and bought a gas consuming BMW instead.

I guess my identity crisis will be resolved with a hybrid diesel that has ample trunk space and is durable enough to be owned for the long term :surprise:

designman

Porsche and VW have been and will be forever attached at the hip, and that blood is thicker than water.

What about Audi?

I see them the same way Lexus is to Toyota. The only difference is that Lexus is homegrown and Audi is the adopted child in a family that accords it the same love. The only place Audi can go is to BMW, back to Daimler, or oblivion, and I think none of these three things will happen. I would think Audi is very instrumental to their success.

dewey

Audi will perpetually remain the stepchild of VW and will soon be the perpetual stepbrother of Porsche.

rsharrill

Haven't read the full thread yet - but my own 1994 Mazda RX-7 (twin turbo, 255hp, superb handling / braking) to be a mighty rival to the Porsche.... bought it new in 94 for about $36K, still running great now w/over 100K miles, going to keep it & do some mods someday. :shades:

designman

Either way, they are in it together, and this goes deeper than business. I appreciate the perspectives and knowledge of you financial people, but there is more to this than just business. Business people aren't always pragmatic, calculating scientists. And the proof of my point is that many said this would never happen because it's a foolish move. It may in fact turn out to be folly, but guess what... it happened, these business people made that "foolish move" for reasons that many don't understand. Not long ago Porsche was on the brink of bankruptcy. They are now the most profitable auto manufacturer in creation and they will soon control Europe's largest auto manufacturer. In spite of VW's woes, they are willing to go down with the ship. Pardon me while I re-write a line from a famous movie. It's not business, Sonny, it's strictly personal. I find something interesting and different in what they are doing. In any event, it may be a long time before we know the ultimate outcome, but these are exciting times, crossroads I suppose.

dewey

I drove a Mazda RX7 in the early part of the 90s and loved it.

It's unfortunate that Mazda does not make such good cars today.

designman

Dman - Economies of scale. Said it before and I'll say it again you are going to see consolidation. It is inevitable because the size of future investments and the global competition are going to be hard for any niche business to compete with.

I heard you loud and clear the first time and I understand the logic. Furthermore, the Porsche press release also mentions consolidation, so it is testament to what you are saying. However, last year you were one of the people who said a Porsche interest in VW is a mistake. Are you now saying the move makes sense?

dewey

Yes the new Porsche influence over VW is definitely a surprise and hopefully will be beneficial for both companies.

But will Porsche's new influence sway VW to a better path?

Piesch wants to re-introduce the Phaeton in North America. Yikes! He also wants to introduce a rebadged Chrysler minivan as a Volkswagen. The softer and more luxurious Passat has transformed into a car that turns off the many Passat owners from the 90s. The sporty unique stubby Jetta transformed into a Corolla-like looking car. The biggest and most exciting VW marketing endeavor for 2006 was changing the Golf into a Rabbit (this will help VW like a Taurus will help Ford). Every year as the VW saga continues it just makes me wonder how Porsche will change things especially with Piesch as VW chairman.

VW GTI, VW Eos are exceptions but these low volume cars are not going to change the destiny of VW.

My left side of the brain is telling me this will not work. Maybe I should pay more attention the the right side

rsharrill

Well - Mazda still makes good cars I say... maybe not as "awesome" as the 3rd-gen RX-7 was... but the Mazda 3 has been a good performer & gets good ratings from what I've read. Even the CX-7 / CX-9 (one of those) seems to be doing well... just a different market.

As for my high-mileage RX-7 - engine doing well, but the lightweight / cheap plastic interior has a little wear & tear now. Plus it's so low and firm ride, my 40-yr old butt no longer relishes it as a daily commuter... or in the snow of course. As I get the 2008 550i this year the RX will become my weekend fun car on nice days... and as for future mods - take a gander if you can at the March edition of Modified Mag magazine (www.modified.com). I am NOT a mod kind of guy (yet) and only bought the magazine because of a great article in there showing a beautiful car (exact same generation and color as mine) which was EXTENSIVELY modified to go from 255HP up to 420HP, aero kits, the works! :shades: No idea what it cost but looks awesome! Keeping the article for future reference..... some years off for sure!

ljflx

I was thinking short term when I said that last year and I was thinking 100% P&L consolidation. By the way Porsche is putting this together they feel the same way. You don't mess up your performance when you just book a minority share of profits and losses at a line that is below EBITDA and above op income. So it's smart - they get what they need operationally without screwing up their normal financials. It does make me think VW has some financial skeletons in the closet though. But you are right as that's a cold business thought vs something that may be more personal.

designman

Every year as the VW saga continues it just makes me wonder how Porsche will change things especially with Piesch as VW chairman.

I'm wondering too, and I am sitting back with my bag of popcorn watching this in the theater with everyone else. If it collapsed like a house of cards it wouldn't come as a surprise. But don't forget that Wiedeking has become a legend in his own time and it is said that he is one of the few people that Steinbrenner, I mean Piech, defers to.

tagman

Beyond this new responsibility for VW, the future of Porsche itself leaves question marks. The Cayenne is a big question. The Cayman is very good, but the sun never shines inside that car, which leaves the aging Boxster... the car that saved Porsche, IMO. The current 911 may end up being the best one they've ever made, as the info that has trickled in regarding the next one is not very promising... but it is too early to know on that one. The Panamera could be the next 4-door 928, and totally bust. Add the upcoming competition factor to the equation. Lots of risk around the corner for Porsche, IMO.

Heap VW with all of its woes on top of that and it's all going to require some brilliance at the top management... and where is that, I ask?

TagMan

volvomax

IF Porsche goes down, it will be because of VW.
VW's management has been pretty inept over the last few years.
From a product standpoint, Porsche is in pretty good shape.
As long as the economy holds up.
I agree that the Panamera is a risk for them, but I think the rest of the lineup is on pretty solid ground.

designman

Lots of risk around the corner for Porsche, IMO.

IMO too. It certainly appears that way and I think most would agree.

Heap VW with all of its woes on top of that and it's all going to require some brilliance at the top management... and where is that, I ask?

I don't know but much of this is on Wiedeking's shoulders. I hope he's not like the captain of the Poseidon who chose to go to the bridge after it capsized.

BTW, regardles of how Panamera turns out, I can't wait for it. I've been anticipating this thing for some 20 years now.

;-)

tagman

Sounds like we are in agreement regarding Porsche.

BTW, regardles of how Panamera turns out, I can't wait for it. I've been anticipating this thing for some 20 years now.

That long? Wow. I've been interested for a couple of years, and I remember mentioning the car in a post to ljflx a ways back on the original HELM forum, when he still posted there.

Are you thinking of getting one... if it's done properly?

TagMan

designman

Are you thinking of getting one... if it's done properly?

A lot of that will be my wife's decision since she'll be using it for the most part. I use the workhorse Subaru and the Boxster. She's locked into mid-size sports sedans and absolutely loves the 530. Plus, she can't be tricked with anything less than BMW handling. So if Panamera outdoes the BMW and hits other desirable sweet spots I'm sure she'll jump right on it. I'd like to get her a drive in the Quattroporte with that new transmission just out of curiosity. I don't want to spend that much money though.

tagman

Are you thinking the Panamera will be less money than the Q? Maybe, like the Cayenne, with an anemic engine as a base model, but as you know, every step up to extra HP in a Porsche comes at a big premium. I would expect the same routine with the Panamera... Base model with a leader price, but try and equip one properly and the price will escalate quickly.

Hopefully for you, and with lots of wishful thinking, the car will be sexy, powerful, handle well, be nicely equipped, and be offered at a reasonable price. If all that happens, they will have a real winner on their hands.

TagMan

tagman

Here's an interesting blurb that appeared on Auto Spies about the White House meeting with the Domestic manufacturers regarding alternative fuels. It supports my recent post, as it seems to support biodiesel over hybrids, with an eye on improved battery technology for the future.

link title

TagMan

tagman

Imagine history repeating itself. But this time Lexus is the target, not Mercedes. This time Hyundai is the one to emerge with a major luxury V8 RWD sedan, loaded with the latest features... for under $30K. Sounds impossible? Check this out:

link title

TagMan

ljflx

Bad pricing strategy. The LS was a $42K car in 1990 ($35K might have been base but there were none around at that price). You can't create a lux brand with no semblance of a lux price. That will hurt existing Hyundai sales by putting a low cap on what most of their main models can go for. If they priced it at $35K+ it would be much smarter and have a shot as folks would consider it at least in the sector. At $25-30K no one will take it seriously, not as a lux car at least. Imagine a sub $30K, $259 a month car in an ad in front of a 6-10,000 foot home.

tagman

Perhaps, but if the same situation as what happened to the LS comes to pass, then the real-life price will be closer to $35K+, and then it's a different ball game, by your reasoning.

And remember, there are more wannabe rich folks than there are actual rich folks. This could be the car for them.

Either way, I didn't think we'd see this until the Chinese did it.

TagMan

dewey

SOURCE: Wall Street Journal

Luxury buyers are quite resistant. Other car makers have also found it a challenge to sway buyers from Mercedes and BMW. "If you've always bought a BMW and love BMW, why would you switch to another brand?" explains Jim Taylor, head of General Motors Corp.'s Cadillac division.

But today, Lexus lacks the necessary cachet. "For that high-end buyer, we're not on their shopping list," says Bob Carter, head of Lexus's U.S. office.

Marketing, the lifeblood of a luxury brand, isn't a traditional strength for Lexus, which is known more for reliability and customer service. History shows it can be very difficult to change consumer perceptions of a car brand. And luxury buyers, usually older, could be even more stubborn, as they are often highly loyal to the kinds of cars they've previously owned.

One big challenge: high-end luxury cars traditionally target men. They represent 60% of Mercedes buyers and 58% of BMW buyers. But 51% of Lexus's buyers are female, a statistic that mirrors the proportion of women in the overall car market.

To attract men to the brand, Lexus -- long known more for cushy comfort than pulse-racing performance -- is plunging into the sports-car arena in 2008, launching a souped-up high-performance series similar to Mercedes's AMG series and BMW's M models. And later this year, Lexus will announce production details of its "super Lexus" with more than 500 horsepower.

brightness04

If Hyundai can make a full size sedan with luxury interior and 300+hp V8, all for $35k, that's wonderful news for consumers indeed. Without subsidy, a $35k car sold at full price should translate to about $575/mo lease (assumptions are $35k MSRP with no discount, realistic 55% 36/36 residual and 6% interest), not that far from what the existing luxury carmakers are letting their cars go. In other words, despite the lala land MSRP's, most cars in the E, 5, A6 and GS level are being let go as if they were $35k cars anyway (although not the 300hp V8 version, unless the consumer is willing to shop hard, like Howard :-). So far, Hyundai marketting seems to be following the low price but honest lease residual approach. If they succeed in marketing such a car, it would probably put further pressure on real life resale of other luxury marques.

Given the reliability gap, the Hyundai entry may pose more competition to MB than to Lexus. After all, Hyundai was once a partner of MB.

And remember, there are more wannabe rich folks than there are actual rich folks.

The actual rich folks don't have to drive themselves to commute. Given that a HELC costs only about $1000/mo, or $12k per year, a tiny fraction of the income level that one would consider "rich," the actual rich folks probably can't care less what car they get ferried in on a day-to-day basis, so long as it's safe and can get them from point A to point B in a reliable and comfortable fashion. The chauffer/assistant probably costs $40k+/yr; the $12k/yr on the car is probably less than the tax and benefits paid to keep the driver. Think about it, the cost of a HELC is lower than the cost of a part-time nanny; that's how far the automobile as a status symbol has fallen . . . frankly a phenomenom worthy of celebration, as human labor is valued more now in comparison to inanimate objects.

Hyundai's latest move is nothing more than a further step in commodidizing "luxury" cars.

brightness04

Marketing, the lifeblood of a luxury brand, isn't a traditional strength for Lexus, which is known more for reliability and customer service.

Interesting take. From what I have been reading on this board, I was under the impression that Lexus was nothing more than a marketting company :-) Also, M and AMG are not high-end luxury cars; dah! Must have been a slow day at WSJ.

dewey

Also, M and AMG are not high-end luxury cars; dah! Must have been a slow day at WSJ.

A slow day for whom? Certainly not for WSJ.

WSJ was referring to performance and not luxury. They were referring to the fact that men are not as attracted to Lexuses as they are to MBs and BMWs.

dewey

Since we are through with all those byebyes

How about we start saying hello to a new upcoming HELC member. A Hyundai, yes I am not kidding!

Hyundai stuns with Lexus rival
27/03/2007 07:26

If you mistake this striking Hyundai concept car for a Lexus, you won't be too much off track. The Hyundai Genesis concept car is an indication that the Korean carmaker is to show its teeth for the luxury car brands.

The new executive sedan will be unveiled at the New York Motor Show. Hyundai describes the Genesis as a "premium sports sedan" which will go into production next year.

The concept sits on a prototype of Hyundai's all-new rear-wheel drive platform, signaling the brand's desire to broaden its appeal to discerning driving enthusiasts.

Under the bonnet is a newly developed 4.6-litre V8 powertrain, which kicks out more than 220kW. The V8 engine is mated to a 6-speed automatic transmission with a limited-slip differential.

Hyundai claims that the concept can go from 0-100 km/h in less than six seconds.

link title

designman

It's impossible to know right now what the Panamera variants are going to be. However it is reasonable to assume the range will be wide, perhaps not at launch though. I of course would be interested in one of the low-rent versions as long as it is reliable and handles like a Porsche. Power is not my priority. I'm thinking the range could be from $60K to $160K. What's your guess?

tagman

How about we start saying hello to a new upcoming HELC member.

Dewey,

The Hyundai Genesis will come in at under $30K, and go up to under $40K, totally loaded. It's definately a shot at Lexus (and others) and it reminds me of Lexus's original LS strategy.

BUT.. It's price will totally exclude it from this HELC board.

I already posted about the car yesterday on the Luxury Lounge, where we can talk about it.

TagMan

dewey

Interesting blurb from the Wall Street Journal about Porsche's lowball offer for VW shares. Apparently VW shareholders will end up with a bum deal while VW Chairman Piesch walks away with the jackpot.

Piesch can profit from his "conflict of interest" due to two things. Poor German takeover regulations and weak corporate governance laws. Ofcourse VW shareholders can reject Porsche's lowball offer. But with Piesch's close relationship to a German State that owns 20 percent of VW shares that just aint going to happen.

Whoever said that life is fair :confuse:

Porsche/Volkswagen

Most companies make takeover bids because they want to take over the company they're bidding for. That's why they pay a premium for the shares.

So what should one make of Porsche AG's €36 billion ($47.8 billion) bid for Volkswagen AG? The German luxury-car maker is offering a price for shares in its mass-market rival that is 14% below the closing price on Friday. That is the minimum it can pay under German takeover rules.

That's legal, but hardly generous. Even taking into account the recent rise in VW shares, it puts the target's equity on a discount to both Renault SA and Fiat SpA on an enterprise value-to-Ebitda -- earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization -- basis. That gives little if any credit for the recovery underway at VW.

So why is Porsche going to the trouble of making such an unappealing bid? The reason is simple. It isn't necessarily seeking formal control of VW. What it really wants is to deepen its influence at the minimum cost.

Porsche deliberately triggered the bid by exercising an option to take its stake through 30%. This was timed to take advantage of the sharp rise in VW's shares -- they are up 30% in the past month -- which in turn has driven a gap between the share price and the weighted three-month average price on which any bid's terms are computed.

This means the bid is unlikely to be accepted by many VW shareholders. German rules only require Porsche to make a mandatory bid once, when it busts through 30%. If that is made and rejected, Porsche is free to creep to control of VW without bidding again.

VW shareholders can now either tender their shares at a lowish price in the bid, or hang on despite the knowledge that VW's top brass aren't necessarily aligned with them. As a major shareholder in Porsche, VW's chairman, Ferdinand Piëch, is interested in building a big stake in VW at minimum cost. That's not easy to reconcile with the objective of maximizing VW's value for all stockholders.

That things have come to this is a failure both of German takeover regulation, which makes it too easy to creep to control, and of German corporate governance.

tagman

What's your guess?

My guess is that the Cayenne (the latest '08) is the closest thing we have on hand to predict the Panamera price range.

Since you mention the low-rent version, it is encouraging to know that the base engine on the Cayenne has been improved. If you've ever checked it out, the previous one was a tragic embarassment, IMO.

TagMan

tagman

The actual rich folks don't have to drive themselves to commute.

That's ridiculous.

TagMan

dewey

In that case I am priviledged to be among "the actual rich folks that don't have to drive themselves to commute". My midtown house is near a subway station.

In fact here is some intersting info from a Lexus survey of the Ultra Rich. And yes the ultra rich do drive their cars to Costco and Home Depot just like other mortals.

SOURCE Wall Street Journal

One of the team's early realizations was that the ultra-rich don't have a car. They have fleets of them, often scattered at different homes and vacation spots across the country. And not only did the rich have a lot of cars, some at the team were surprised by how often many buyers changed their fleet, trading cars more often than most people change wardrobes. Some changed cars in three months, either because they changed their minds or wanted the newest model.

That discovery led Lexus to realize that it didn't necessarily have to compete with other ultra-luxury brands as much as complement them. A Lexus sedan may not be as chic as Porsche 911 convertible, but it might be added as the practical daily driver for someone who already has one. Indeed, the team also found that many of the ultra-rich didn't act all that differently from regular Lexus owners, identifying themselves as "upper middle class" and shopping at places like Costco, Home Depot and Target.

tagman

LOL

TagMan

dewey

BUT.. It's price will totally exclude it from this HELC board.

Ok in that case forget "hello' and I will just say "byebye" Hyundai.

designman

Ofcourse VW shareholders can reject Porsche's lowball offer. But with Piesch's close relationship to a German State that owns 20 percent of VW shares that just aint going to happen.

I'm not following your point here. The lowball offer is designed to have no takers. This in combination with Porsche/Peich relationship with the government, and the governments ineptness in corporate matters means IN EFFECT that Porsche with only 30+% controls VW as if they owned 50+%

Would be funny if VW shares suddenly dropped 35% and shareholders were stepping on each other to get to the offer. Maybe it doesn't matter though. I think somewhere down the road Porsche may wind up at 50+%. I also heard that the government might be interested divesting.

dewey

I am no expert in German securities laws but based on my understanding VW shareholders can reject the lowish offer price from Porshce.

VW shareholders can now either tender their shares at a lowish price in the bid, or hang on despite the knowledge that VW's top brass aren't necessarily aligned with them

designman

That's just it, they will reject. Why would they take 30% less than the current share price?

dewey

Porsche deliberately triggered the bid by exercising an option to take its stake through 30%.

First of all you mean a 14 % discount to Friday's closing price.

Porsche is merely exercising their call options on VW and are now entitled to buy the shares at a favorable exercise price.

Apparently you are correct it seems to be a done deal but why does WSJ present the facts as if shareholders still have an option to reject the offer?

I can do research but I really dont have time.

tagman

I can do research but I really dont have time.

Between your clients, family, driving your 335i, reading the WSJ, and posting on Edmunds, it's a miracle if you have time to eat.

TagMan

brightness04

That's ridiculous.

Care to elaborate? The way I did the analysis is as following: If the commute is even half an hour each way, that's one hour a day. A chauffer/driver/assistant costs about $150-200 per day if put on an annual salary basis. If a person is not making more than $200/hr, he/she is not really rich. Therefore the actual rich folks don't _have to_ drive themselves to _commute_. QED.

brightness04

In that case I am priviledged to be among "the actual rich folks that don't have to drive themselves to commute". My midtown house is near a subway station.

I see, logic failure again. "The actual rich folks don't have to drive themselves to commute." does not mean anyone who doesn't drive themselves to commute is "actually rich." Some basics in formal logic: "A therefore B" is the same as "not B therefore not A" but not the same as "B therefore A" or "not A therefore not B."

And yes the ultra rich do drive their cars to Costco and Home Depot just like other mortals.

So how many ultra rich work at the Costco and Home Depot? Notice, I said "commute" not leisure shopping.

Your quoted source regarding several not necessarily luxury cars scattered in different places actually mesh with my earlier statement quite well. If you are making $50k, 100k or more each month (ie. $600k to $1.2mil a year, still the low end of "truely rich"), do you really care about the status value of a car that can be had for only about $1000/mo? Reliability, hence avoiding wasting your time, becomes far more important. The ones who still care about status value of a $1000/mo car are wannabe riches.

BTW, having a driver for commute is not necessarily "acting rich," but a time saver. If your time is worth more, you get someone else to do the day-in day-out repetitive task, in order to have better return on your own time. As simple as that.

hpowders

Umm...thankfully, life is more than just a set of numbers for me, brightness.

I enjoy driving and if I were still working, would never pay a chauffeur to get me from one meeting to another, even though It certainly wouldn't put much of a dent in my budget to do so.

It may not be cost-efficient as you see it, but I don't mind enjoying my life. Driving fine vehicles is a significant part of that.

Guess I'll just have to "take the loss" from your analysis and continue tossing the 545i around. :shades:

designman

First of all you mean a 14 % discount to Friday's closing price.

Yes. Sorry, I mixed that up with the 30% increase in VW shares over the last month.

Apparently you are correct it seems to be a done deal but why does WSJ present the facts as if shareholders still have an option to reject the offer?

Why wouldn't they have the option to reject the offer?

Porsche only wants 30% stake right now because it gives them control by way of their relationship with the government who is a 20% shareholder. Accordingly they are using the rules to their advantage and are only making the offer because the law requires them to. Am I missing something?